Ubuntu Wiki

   1 [00:01] <bodhi_zazen> #startmeeting
   2 
   3 [00:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 18:01. The chair is bodhi_zazen.
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   5 [00:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
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   7 [00:01] <nhandler> Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
   8 
   9 [00:01] <nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
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  11 [00:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
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  13 [00:01] <bodhi_zazen> yipee
  14 
  15 [00:02] <bodhi_zazen> you want to do agenda items first ?
  16 
  17 [00:02] <nhandler> Sure bodhi_zazen, but can we move the first item until the end of the agenda? It will require a little discussion
  18 
  19 [00:03] <bodhi_zazen> oops ...
  20 
  21 [00:03] <bodhi_zazen> sure
  22 
  23 [00:03] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] Transition from ## to #
  24 
  25 [00:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Transition from ## to #
  26 
  27 [00:03] <nhandler> Currently, we have our FG channels using the naming scheme ##beginners-foo
  28 
  29 [00:03] <bodhi_zazen> you are up nhandler
  30 
  31 [00:04] <nhandler> As they are part of our team, they should really use #ubuntu-beginners-foo
  32 
  33 [00:04] <bodhi_zazen> +1
  34 
  35 [00:04] <swoody> +1 nhandler
  36 
  37 [00:04] <nhandler> I have talked with Pricey, and there is no Freenode/Ubuntu IRC policy prohibiting this
  38 
  39 [00:04] <bodhi_zazen> just for a little history, if I recall long ago we did just this and were asked to move to ##
  40 
  41 [00:04] <bodhi_zazen> so I do not mind moving back
  42 
  43 [00:04] <nhandler> It will make it clear to other users that the FG channels are in the Ubuntu namespace, and all Ubuntu rules apply in there
  44 
  45 [00:05] <bodhi_zazen> we will have to update the wiki - AGAIN - lol
  46 
  47 [00:05] <nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/MovingChannels
  48 
  49 [00:05] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/MovingChannels
  50 
  51 [00:05] <Ash_R> At least rocket won't find out until after the holiday.
  52 
  53 [00:05] <bodhi_zazen> I will move -council
  54 
  55 [00:05] <nhandler> That wiki page explains how to move the channels
  56 
  57 [00:05] <nhandler> I would like to ask all FG leaders to move their own channel (if the vote passes)
  58 
  59 [00:05] <Joeb454> I think it's probably for the best, as you say, makes it clear what the channels are
  60 
  61 [00:05] <bodhi_zazen> do you want to vote on this ?
  62 
  63 [00:06] <nhandler> I think we should bodhi_zazen
  64 
  65 [00:06] <Joeb454> that said - I think the channel names could become very long
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  67 [00:06] <bodhi_zazen> LOL nhandler
  68 
  69 [00:06] <bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] move to #
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  71 [00:06] <MootBot> Please vote on:  move to #.
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  73 [00:06] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
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  75 [00:06] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
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  77 [00:06] <nhandler> +1
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  79 [00:06] <MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
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  81 [00:06] <bodhi_zazen> +1
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  83 [00:06] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
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  85 [00:06] <drs305> +1
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  87 [00:06] <sdennie> 0
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  89 [00:06] <MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
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  91 [00:06] <swoody> +1
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  93 [00:06] <MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
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  95 [00:06] <Ash_R> +1
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  97 [00:06] <MootBot> +1 received from Ash_R. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
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  99 [00:06] <Joeb454> +1
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 101 [00:06] <MootBot> +1 received from Joeb454. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
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 103 [00:06] <w4ett> +1
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 105 [00:06] <MootBot> +1 received from w4ett. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
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 107 [00:07] <bodhi_zazen> any mor evotes ?
 108 
 109 [00:07] <sdennie> Huh.  Apparently 0 doesn't mean abstained
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 111 [00:07] <nhandler> sdennie: +0
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 113 [00:07] <sdennie> +0
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 115 [00:07] <MootBot> Abstention received from sdennie. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 7
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 117 [00:07] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
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 119 [00:07] <MootBot> Final result is 7 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 7
 120 
 121 [00:07] <bodhi_zazen> [AGREED]Move to #
 122 
 123 [00:07] <MootBot> AGREED received: Move to #
 124 
 125 [00:07] <bodhi_zazen> :)
 126 
 127 [00:08] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: So you will move -council, and FG leads will move their own channels, correct?
 128 
 129 [00:08] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] Council members and Focus Group Leaders should sign Leadership Code of Conduct
 130 
 131 [00:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Council members and Focus Group Leaders should sign Leadership Code of Conduct
 132 
 133 [00:08] <bodhi_zazen> yes nhandler
 134 
 135 [00:08] <nhandler> [LINK] http://www.ubuntu.com/community/leadership-conduct
 136 
 137 [00:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/community/leadership-conduct
 138 
 139 [00:08] <Joeb454> there's a leadership CoC? lol
 140 
 141 [00:08] <nhandler> The Leadership Code of Conduct holds leaders in the Ubuntu community to a higher standard than the normal Code of Conduct. As Council members and Focus Group leaders are leaders on an official Ubuntu team, I feel that it is important that all members sign the Leadership Code of Conduct in addition to the standard Code of Conduct (which they already should have signed). As Launchpad currently does not offer a place to upload signed copies
 142 
 143 [00:08]  * Joeb454 takes a few mins to read the link
 144 
 145 [00:09] <bodhi_zazen> any commnets on that ?
 146 
 147 [00:09] <bodhi_zazen> I already signed so pfft :)
 148 
 149 [00:09] <Saj0577> dont start vote reading time please :D
 150 
 151 [00:09] <Joeb454> well I think it's fair, though it probably means I need another key, and I'll have to be reminded how to sign things =/
 152 
 153 [00:09] <Ash_R> i think its a good idea
 154 
 155 [00:09] <bodhi_zazen> how would you have them sign it nhandler
 156 
 157 [00:10] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: The same way as the normal CoC is signed (GPG Clearsign). We would then email it to the -council mailing list, and possibly CC the full team list (if desired)
 158 
 159 [00:10] <bodhi_zazen> LP does the CoC, does it do the Leadership CoC as well ?
 160 
 161 [00:10] <nhandler> No
 162 
 163 [00:10] <nhandler> That is why I proposed emailing it to the list
 164 
 165 [00:10] <bodhi_zazen> Well, it it is not tracked in LP, I do not want to track it either :)
 166 
 167 [00:11] <bodhi_zazen> I think a signed CoC on LP and awareness of the Leadersip CoC is sufficient
 168 
 169 [00:11] <Ash_R> can we not push for it to be tracked through launchpad?
 170 
 171 [00:11] <sdennie> I tend to agree with bodhi_zazen on this.  If it's a haphazard method of tracking, it doesn't mean much.
 172 
 173 [00:11] <w4ett> bodhi_zazen:  +1
 174 
 175 [00:12] <bodhi_zazen> nhandler: do any other team require a signed leadership CoC ?
 176 
 177 [00:13] <pleia2> no, but there is a LP bug about it
 178 
 179 [00:13] <pleia2> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/392976
 180 
 181 [00:13] <ubottu> Ubuntu bug 392976 in ubuntu-community "Leadership CoC not given to LoCo Leads" [Undecided,New]
 182 
 183 [00:13] <pleia2> mentions that it probably should be :)
 184 
 185 [00:13] <sdennie> Maybe we should bring the subject up again if/when the bug is fixed
 186 
 187 [00:14] <bodhi_zazen> +1 sdennie
 188 
 189 [00:14] <Ash_R> +1 sdennie
 190 
 191 [00:14] <bodhi_zazen> and perhaps we should nudge the bug trackers :)
 192 
 193 [00:14] <pleia2> it's a brand new bug
 194 
 195 [00:14] <pleia2> only 3 days old
 196 
 197 [00:14] <bodhi_zazen> any other comments b4 we vote ?
 198 
 199 [00:15] <Saj0577> I think it is a good idea so why not set the example in saying we should sign it?
 200 
 201 [00:15] <nhandler> Just because it is not tracked on LP is no reason not to hold our team leaders to it
 202 
 203 [00:15] <swoody> +1 nhandler
 204 
 205 [00:15] <Saj0577> agreed.
 206 
 207 [00:15] <Ash_R> i agree also
 208 
 209 [00:15] <Joeb454> I'm sort of mid-field on this one
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 211 [00:15] <sdennie> Saj0577: Do you plan to get my public key and verify that the stuff at the bottom of my signature is indeed a signature and not just random characters?
 212 
 213 [00:15] <swoody> I think it would be a great show if we take the initiative and start a push ourselves
 214 
 215 [00:16] <bodhi_zazen> holding team leaders to it and gpg signing it are separate though
 216 
 217 [00:16] <Joeb454> I agree that team leaders should be aware of it, and have read it (I've just finished reading) - but there's no way to see if they have done that
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 219 [00:16] <bodhi_zazen> gpg signing means we need a way to track
 220 
 221 [00:16] <sdennie> bodhi_zazen: Right.  Holding team leaders to it is fine in my opinion
 222 
 223 [00:16] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: If they have not signed it, they never really agreed to follow it
 224 
 225 [00:16] <Ash_R> i have been aware of it for a while.  never seen it mentioned anywhere else though
 226 
 227 [00:16] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: If we have a signed copy of it on the ML, we can track it ;)
 228 
 229 [00:16] <bodhi_zazen> it does not really matter if they agree nhandler , we will hold them to it anyways, lol
 230 
 231 [00:17] <Ash_R> then that is holding them to something they did not agree to bodhi_zazen
 232 
 233 [00:17] <bodhi_zazen> indeed Ash_R
 234 
 235 [00:17] <Saj0577> Ash_R but if they got an objection too it do we really want them as a team leader?
 236 
 237 [00:18] <nhandler> The Leadership CoC is more of a formality. I doubt that any of our current leaders will be violating it (even if unsigned)
 238 
 239 [00:18] <bodhi_zazen> I do not think it is unreasonable to hold "leaders" to a higher standard
 240 
 241 [00:18] <bodhi_zazen> and that is the other issue nhandler
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 243 [00:18] <Ash_R> Saj0577,  having seen the terms they would have had opportunity to back out
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 245 [00:18] <cprofitt> is there even a way to sign it nhandler ?
 246 
 247 [00:18] <nhandler> cprofitt: GPG clearsign
 248 
 249 [00:18] <swoody> I think we should implement it with all new team leads. Sort of like a EULA where they have to accept to abide by the code to become a lead in the first place.
 250 
 251 [00:18] <sdennie> I really don't see this as an issue.  The Leadership CoC is common sense stuff.  I'd be happy to sign it if there were an official way to track it.  There isn't so, I'm not sure what good signing it will do.
 252 
 253 [00:18] <bodhi_zazen> people who violate the principles generally are not in leadership positions
 254 
 255 [00:19] <pleia2> On the CoC page: "In addition to this Code of Conduct, we hold our community leaders (such as IRC operators, Forums staff, team leaders and LoCo coordinators) to an even higher standard which is documented in the Leadership Code of Conduct."
 256 
 257 [00:19] <pleia2> so in theory, leaders *are* bound by it already
 258 
 259 [00:19] <cprofitt> nhandler, but is there a 'process' as there is for the CoC?
 260 
 261 [00:19] <bodhi_zazen> +1 pleia2
 262 
 263 [00:19] <Joeb454> pleia2: it does? damn...I'm in 3 of those categories ;)
 264 
 265 [00:19] <nhandler> cprofitt: The 'process' for the normal CoC is mainly to get it to show up on LP. All we would do is GPG clearsign it and email it to the mailing list (which is publicly accessible)
 266 
 267 [00:20] <Joeb454> but you do have a good point there
 268 
 269 [00:20] <bodhi_zazen> I think people in leadership are bound by the principles and we should ask them to file a signed CoC on LP
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 271 [00:20] <sdennie> nhandler: But, as I said, is anyone going to go to the trouble to see if it's actually signed or just has a bunch of random characters at the bottom?
 272 
 273 [00:20] <bodhi_zazen> in addition when LP is able to track a Leadership CoC , add it in
 274 
 275 [00:20] <cprofitt> nhandler, who would record that it had been signed? When it is modified who would send out a notice to re-sign it? If I change my gpg would I have to resign it?
 276 
 277 [00:20] <sdennie> I agree with bodhi_zazen
 278 
 279 [00:20] <nhandler> sdennie: I would have no issue verifying all of the signatures
 280 
 281 [00:21] <bodhi_zazen> a signed CoC essentially includes the leadership clauses, IMO
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 283 [00:21] <cprofitt> bodhi_zazen, +1
 284 
 285 [00:21] <cprofitt> unless there is a way to track it... I think it is likely more 'trouble' than it is worth
 286 
 287 [00:21] <sdennie> I say shelve the issue or vote on it.  We are just talking in circles.
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 289 [00:21] <cprofitt> certainly if a leader violates it they should be questioned by the remaining leaders
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 291 [00:21] <nhandler> Most of that 'tracking' stuff you were asking about cprofitt isn't even available for the normal CoC
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 293 [00:21] <nhandler> The Leadership CoC should also remain relatively stable
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 295 [00:22] <cprofitt> nhandler, then I see no value in signatures...
 296 
 297 [00:22] <bodhi_zazen> [Vote] Leaders gpg sign Leadership CoC
 298 
 299 [00:22] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Leaders gpg sign Leadership CoC.
 300 
 301 [00:22] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
 302 
 303 [00:22] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
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 305 [00:22] <sdennie> -1
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 307 [00:22] <cprofitt> leaders by default agree to it
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 309 [00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from sdennie. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
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 311 [00:22] <bodhi_zazen> -1
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 313 [00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
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 315 [00:22] <cprofitt> -1
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 317 [00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from cprofitt. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
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 319 [00:22] <drs305> +0
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 321 [00:22] <MootBot> Abstention received from drs305. 0 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -3
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 323 [00:22] <Saj0577> -1
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 325 [00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from Saj0577. 0 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -4
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 327 [00:22] <duanedesign> +0
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 329 [00:22] <swoody> -1
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 331 [00:22] <MootBot> Abstention received from duanedesign. 0 for, 4 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -4
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 333 [00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from swoody. 0 for, 5 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -5
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 335 [00:22] <w4ett> +0
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 337 [00:22] <Ash_R> -1
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 339 [00:22] <MootBot> Abstention received from w4ett. 0 for, 5 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -5
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 341 [00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from Ash_R. 0 for, 6 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -6
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 343 [00:22] <nhandler> +1
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 345 [00:22] <MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 6 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -5
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 347 [00:22] <Joeb454> +0
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 349 [00:22] <MootBot> Abstention received from Joeb454. 1 for, 6 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now -5
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 351 [00:23] <bodhi_zazen> any other votes
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 353 [00:23] <cprofitt> three times for Robert's Rules bodhi_zazen
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 355 [00:23] <Ash_R> we seem to be short on numbers.
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 357 [00:24] <cprofitt> pain, but the process
 358 
 359 [00:24] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
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 361 [00:24] <MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 6 against. 4 abstained. Total: -5
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 363 [00:24] <bodhi_zazen> [VOTE]Bring issue up when we can track the document on LP
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 365 [00:24] <MootBot> Please vote on: Bring issue up when we can track the document on LP.
 366 
 367 [00:24] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
 368 
 369 [00:24] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
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 371 [00:24] <bodhi_zazen> +1
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 373 [00:24] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
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 375 [00:24] <nhandler> +1
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 377 [00:24] <MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
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 379 [00:24] <Ash_R> +1
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 381 [00:24] <MootBot> +1 received from Ash_R. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
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 383 [00:24] <swoody> +1
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 385 [00:24] <MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
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 387 [00:24] <sdennie> +1
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 389 [00:24] <MootBot> +1 received from sdennie. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
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 391 [00:24] <w4ett> +1
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 393 [00:25] <MootBot> +1 received from w4ett. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
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 395 [00:25] <Saj0577> +1
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 397 [00:25] <cprofitt> +0
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 399 [00:25] <MootBot> +1 received from Saj0577. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
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 401 [00:25] <MootBot> Abstention received from cprofitt. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 7
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 403 [00:25] <Joeb454> +0
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 405 [00:25] <MootBot> Abstention received from Joeb454. 7 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 7
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 407 [00:25] <duanedesign> +0
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 409 [00:25] <MootBot> Abstention received from duanedesign. 7 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 7
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 411 [00:25] <drs305> +1
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 413 [00:25] <MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 8 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 8
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 415 [00:25] <bodhi_zazen> any mor evotes ?
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 417 [00:25] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
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 419 [00:25] <MootBot> Final result is 8 for, 0 against. 3 abstained. Total: 8
 420 
 421 [00:26] <bodhi_zazen> [ACTION]Bring the issue of Leaders signing Leadership CoC when we can track it on LP
 422 
 423 [00:26] <MootBot> ACTION received: Bring the issue of Leaders signing Leadership CoC when we can track it on LP
 424 
 425 [00:26] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC]Get rid of Jedi Fellows
 426 
 427 [00:26] <MootBot> New Topic: Get rid of Jedi Fellows
 428 
 429 [00:26] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: Would you (or another council member) like to give a status update of the charter now?
 430 
 431 [00:27] <bodhi_zazen> REMINDER 30 min left :)
 432 
 433 [00:27] <bodhi_zazen> nhandler:
 434 
 435 [00:27] <bodhi_zazen> nhandler: do you want to table your agenda item ?
 436 
 437 [00:27] <nhandler> I guess we can do it now (and the status update after)
 438 
 439 [00:27] <bodhi_zazen> Well, I do not see charter on the agenda
 440 
 441 [00:27] <sdennie> I talked with nhandler about this topic but, I don't think getting rid of the Jedi Fellows is needed
 442 
 443 [00:28] <nhandler> A Jedi Fellow is a Beginners Team member who is also an Ubuntu member. This grants no special powers/privileges, and is designed to encourage Beginners Team members to become Ubuntu members. I do not think that we should be encouraging people to become Ubuntu members in order to be listed as a Jedi Fellow.
 444 
 445 [00:28] <bodhi_zazen> which although important, means
 446 
 447 [00:28] <bodhi_zazen> agenda items first
 448 
 449 [00:28] <bodhi_zazen> then new members
 450 
 451 [00:28] <cprofitt> I see no reason to get rid of the Jedi Fellows...
 452 
 453 [00:28] <bodhi_zazen> and comments from FG
 454 
 455 [00:28] <cprofitt> there is no reason to not recognize them
 456 
 457 [00:28] <Ash_R> bodhi_zazen,  comments on what sorry :)
 458 
 459 [00:28] <nhandler> No other Ubuntu *team* recognizes Ubuntu members. Only *areas* of the community (Forums, IRC, LP, etc) recognize them
 460 
 461 [00:28] <bodhi_zazen> I am neutral tending to want to encourage Ubuntu Membership
 462 
 463 [00:29] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: I think we should encourage Ubuntu Membership, but not with a title
 464 
 465 [00:29] <bodhi_zazen> FG leads should at least give us an update or things they need from the team
 466 
 467 [00:29] <sdennie> I think a lot of people use the BT as an easy to access stepping stone into the Ubuntu community.  Knowing the people that have been recognized as Ubuntu members seems important to me.
 468 
 469 [00:29] <cprofitt> it was not meant to encourage people to become a member for 'recognition' but to cast it in a positive light
 470 
 471 [00:29] <Saj0577> I think it may influence people to become members who otherwise would not seek it.
 472 
 473 [00:29] <cprofitt> nhandler, we are not other teams
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 475 [00:29] <Ash_R> oh right.  in that case i have something to add if time allows bodhi_zazen
 476 
 477 [00:29] <cprofitt> BT is the team that helps guide users in to the rest of the Ubuntu Community Cosmos
 478 
 479 [00:30] <sdennie> cprofitt: I agree
 480 
 481 [00:30] <bodhi_zazen> OK Ash_R :)
 482 
 483 [00:30] <drs305> I don't care what they are called but feel there should be an easy way to identify BT Ubuntu members
 484 
 485 [00:30] <bodhi_zazen> wait ... Ash_R
 486 
 487 [00:30] <nhandler> You can get that info by 1) Looking at the group on the forums 2) Looking at our cloaks 3) The +members page on LP
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 489 [00:30] <cprofitt> if nothing else having such recognition serves to make new people aware that such a recognition exists from the Ubuntu community
 490 
 491 [00:31] <cprofitt> nhandler, Yes, but as a team we are the gateway to that information
 492 
 493 [00:31] <cprofitt> we server the purpose making people aware of that
 494 
 495 [00:31] <sdennie> Again I agree with cprofitt
 496 
 497 [00:31] <bodhi_zazen> I think recognition is important as I do think this team helps people move from forums -> Greater Ubuntu Community
 498 
 499 [00:31] <nhandler> cprofitt: So we can link them to those locations instead of reproducing the list ourselves
 500 
 501 [00:31] <bodhi_zazen> and most team members feel it helps :)
 502 
 503 [00:31] <cprofitt> if people can only see that in the traditional ways then we do not need to 'guide' them
 504 
 505 [00:31] <cprofitt> I disagree nhandler
 506 
 507 [00:31] <nhandler> If we feel the need to have a list, I would like to propose using the LP api to generate it
 508 
 509 [00:32] <cprofitt> just because there are other ways does not mean we should not recognize them and provide another way
 510 
 511 [00:32] <drs305> None of those are well known or comprehensive, nor directly connected to the team.
 512 
 513 [00:32] <cprofitt> what 'problems' do you have with the recognition
 514 
 515 === yofel_ is now known as yofel
 516 
 517 [00:32] <nhandler> cprofitt: The wiki page requires us to manually update it, and it has frequently been out-dated
 518 
 519 [00:32] <cprofitt> nhandler, that is true of many of the wiki pages
 520 
 521 [00:32] <cprofitt> it is easy enough to have people who become members update it themselves
 522 
 523 [00:33] <cprofitt> if they want to be listed
 524 
 525 [00:33] <bodhi_zazen> +1 cprofitt
 526 
 527 [00:33] <bodhi_zazen> it is not "our" responsibility to keep that info up to date
 528 
 529 [00:33] <drs305> Once a member, always a member unless they leave the team. The list would have to be updated once. Let the members list themselves.
 530 
 531 [00:33] <drs305> * What cprofitt said!
 532 
 533 [00:33] <Saj0577> drs305 only lasts 2 years then needs renewing i believe.
 534 
 535 [00:33] <bodhi_zazen> and when people recieve recognition they are usually quite willing to add in their names ;)
 536 
 537 [00:33] <cprofitt> +1 bodhi_zazen
 538 
 539 [00:34] <drs305> ty Saj0577
 540 
 541 [00:34] <bodhi_zazen> are we ready to vote ?
 542 
 543 [00:34] <cprofitt> Saj0577, true
 544 
 545 [00:34] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: Willing isn't the issue. Many people don't know the list exists and needs updating
 546 
 547 [00:34] <cprofitt> I am bodhi_zazen
 548 
 549 [00:34] <cprofitt> nhandler, then educate them about the list -- do not get rid of it because it requires a bit of work
 550 
 551 [00:34] <nhandler> This is why I suggested using the LP API to generate it
 552 
 553 [00:34] <bodhi_zazen> any additional comments prior to vote ?
 554 
 555 [00:34] <Ash_R> i am ready to vote.
 556 
 557 [00:34] <nhandler> It would always be up-to-date
 558 
 559 [00:35] <cprofitt> I think there are far more positives to it than negatives
 560 
 561 [00:35]  * Saj0577 has a point for AOB
 562 
 563 [00:35] <bodhi_zazen> [Vote]Get rid of Jedi Fellows
 564 
 565 [00:35] <MootBot> Please vote on: Get rid of Jedi Fellows.
 566 
 567 [00:35] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
 568 
 569 [00:35] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
 570 
 571 [00:35] <cprofitt> and the work and effort is worth it
 572 
 573 [00:35] <cprofitt> -1
 574 
 575 [00:35] <MootBot> -1 received from cprofitt. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
 576 
 577 [00:35] <Joeb454> +0
 578 
 579 [00:35] <swoody> -1
 580 
 581 [00:35] <MootBot> Abstention received from Joeb454. 0 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
 582 
 583 [00:35] <MootBot> -1 received from swoody. 0 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -2
 584 
 585 [00:35] <drs305> -1
 586 
 587 [00:35] <MootBot> -1 received from drs305. 0 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -3
 588 
 589 [00:35] <duanedesign> -1
 590 
 591 [00:35] <MootBot> -1 received from duanedesign. 0 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -4
 592 
 593 [00:35] <sdennie> -1
 594 
 595 [00:35] <MootBot> -1 received from sdennie. 0 for, 5 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -5
 596 
 597 [00:35] <bodhi_zazen> +0
 598 
 599 [00:35] <MootBot> Abstention received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 5 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -5
 600 
 601 [00:35] <w4ett> -1
 602 
 603 [00:35] <MootBot> -1 received from w4ett. 0 for, 6 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -6
 604 
 605 [00:35] <Saj0577> +0
 606 
 607 [00:35] <Ash_R> -1
 608 
 609 [00:35] <MootBot> -1 received from Ash_R. 0 for, 7 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -7
 610 
 611 [00:35] <MootBot> Abstention received from Saj0577. 0 for, 7 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -7
 612 
 613 [00:35] <nhandler> +1
 614 
 615 [00:35] <MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 7 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -6
 616 
 617 [00:35] <bodhi_zazen> Any additional votes ?
 618 
 619 [00:36] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
 620 
 621 [00:36] <MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 7 against. 3 abstained. Total: -6
 622 
 623 [00:36] <bodhi_zazen> [AGREED] Keep Jedi Fellows
 624 
 625 [00:36] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Keep Jedi Fellows
 626 
 627 [00:37] <bodhi_zazen> do we want to talk charter ?
 628 
 629 [00:37] <bodhi_zazen> or hear from FG and new members ?
 630 
 631 [00:37] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: I think a status update of the charter would be nice
 632 
 633 [00:37] <bodhi_zazen> charter may be short or long
 634 
 635 [00:37] <nhandler> Just a status update (no discussion)
 636 
 637 [00:37] <Ash_R> i think new members
 638 
 639 [00:37] <bodhi_zazen> +1 nhandler
 640 
 641 [00:37] <cprofitt> new members then status updates
 642 
 643 [00:37] <bodhi_zazen> any objections 9as it was not on the agenda)
 644 
 645 [00:38] <cprofitt> charter good too...
 646 
 647 [00:38] <swoody> +1 charter
 648 
 649 [00:38] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: It was an action from the last meeting
 650 
 651 [00:38] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC]Charter
 652 
 653 [00:38] <MootBot> New Topic: Charter
 654 
 655 [00:38] <bodhi_zazen> nhandler: well it really needs to be on the agenda :)
 656 
 657 [00:38] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: We didn't have our meeting to discuss it until yesterday ;)
 658 
 659 [00:39] <nhandler> Would another leader like to summarize?
 660 
 661 [00:39] <cprofitt> feel free nhandler
 662 
 663 [00:39] <bodhi_zazen> I know, but if we or you were even thinking of discussing it, it really should have been added, and canceled if needed (IMO) for future meetings
 664 
 665 [00:39] <Joeb454> nhandler: go ahead :)
 666 
 667 [00:40] <nhandler> We started puting some ideas on the wiki for a charter: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Council/Charter
 668 
 669 [00:40] <nhandler> As a note, that is simply a draft. We will be cleaning it up and reorganizing it soon
 670 
 671 [00:40] <bodhi_zazen> nhandler: just so we know, who is "we" ?
 672 
 673 [00:40] <nhandler> We in this case is the BT Council
 674 
 675 [00:40] <bodhi_zazen> just curious as to who fees we need to change is all
 676 
 677 [00:41] <bodhi_zazen> TY
 678 
 679 [00:41] <nhandler> For those of you who have suggestions/comments about the charter, please feel free to contact the council either on IRC or via email (to the list)
 680 
 681 [00:41] <cprofitt> feels
 682 
 683 [00:42] <bodhi_zazen> For others, in the past this has been here :
 684 
 685 [00:42] <bodhi_zazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Council/
 686 
 687 [00:42] <MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Council/
 688 
 689 [00:42] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: That page is relatively new and just a copy/paste from the Structure page
 690 
 691 [00:43] <bodhi_zazen> well, yes is new, but the content is not new
 692 
 693 [00:43] <bodhi_zazen> it is not as if we are just starting to discuss the role of the council
 694 
 695 [00:44] <bodhi_zazen> the first link does not have any history behind it , and people outside the discussion can not follow without the page I linked
 696 
 697 [00:44] <sdennie> I'm not sure if we should dwell on this much tonight if there is more business to attend to
 698 
 699 [00:44] <nhandler> I am fine with moving on sdennie
 700 
 701 [00:44] <bodhi_zazen> I think the page I linked is sufficient, but am open to suggestions if anything needs to be added or changed
 702 
 703 [00:45] <bodhi_zazen> I would like to have some idea of where we are going with this, at least a general trend
 704 
 705 [00:45] <bodhi_zazen> or is the page I linked sufficient ?
 706 
 707 [00:45] <Saj0577> sufficient
 708 
 709 [00:46] <bodhi_zazen> nhandler: or anyone else have any suggestions ?
 710 
 711 [00:46] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: We (BT Council) will be talking more with paultag and other users who expressed strong opinions on the mailing list thread
 712 
 713 [00:46] <Ash_R> can this be put on the next agenda as it would give members who are not present to think on it
 714 
 715 [00:46] <nhandler> Ash_R: Yes. Hopefully, we will have a charter to vote on for that meeting
 716 
 717 [00:46] <Ash_R> we seem to have less that 12 voters present
 718 
 719 [00:46] <Ash_R> *than
 720 
 721 [00:46] <nhandler> New members now?
 722 
 723 [00:46] <bodhi_zazen> I am ok with discussing the charter later
 724 
 725 [00:47] <cprofitt> we will likely have to have some rules -- written in the charter about how much of the team will be required to accept it...
 726 
 727 [00:47] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC]New members
 728 
 729 [00:47] <MootBot> New Topic: New members
 730 
 731 [00:47] <cprofitt> and what will be required to change it... etc
 732 
 733 [00:47] <bodhi_zazen> cprofitt: I think as general as possible :)
 734 
 735 [00:48] <cprofitt> bodhi_zazen, not sure those things can be general...
 736 
 737 [00:48] <bodhi_zazen> pleia2: I think is up for membership
 738 
 739 [00:48]  * pleia2 waves
 740 
 741 [00:48] <cprofitt> we can use well tested ones
 742 
 743 [00:48] <bodhi_zazen> I know cprofitt
 744 
 745 [00:48] <nhandler> pleia2: Care to introduce yourself?
 746 
 747 [00:48] <cprofitt> yes... I present pleia2 for membership
 748 
 749 [00:48] <cprofitt> her wiki page is here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/lyz
 750 
 751 [00:49] <cprofitt> she has worked with the Education FG is getting the Ubuntu Community Learning Project off the ground
 752 
 753 [00:49] <pleia2> Sure, I'm Elizabeth Krumbach, have been working with Ubuntu for a few years, became a member about 2 years ago, started working with cprofitt and all on the education FG related to Classroom which led into the new Learning project
 754 
 755 [00:49] <cprofitt> and has been very helpful with several other teams
 756 
 757 [00:50] <pleia2> and I hang out in the #ubuntu-beginners team and help out as needed, would like to start doing soem Classroom classes under the BT label
 758 
 759 [00:50] <nhandler> Any questions for pleia2 ? Or can we vote?
 760 
 761 [00:50] <bodhi_zazen> I support pleia2 in membership :)
 762 
 763 [00:50] <pleia2> thanks :)
 764 
 765 [00:50] <bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] pleia2 for membersihp
 766 
 767 [00:50] <MootBot> Please vote on:  pleia2 for membersihp.
 768 
 769 [00:50] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
 770 
 771 [00:50] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
 772 
 773 [00:50] <sdennie> +1
 774 
 775 [00:50] <bodhi_zazen> +1
 776 
 777 [00:50] <MootBot> +1 received from sdennie. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
 778 
 779 [00:50] <Ash_R> +1
 780 
 781 [00:50] <nhandler> +1
 782 
 783 [00:50] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
 784 
 785 [00:50] <Saj0577> +1
 786 
 787 [00:50] <MootBot> +1 received from Ash_R. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
 788 
 789 [00:50] <w4ett> pleia2 has been indispensable in assisting in the reformation of the tennessee loco team
 790 
 791 [00:50] <MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
 792 
 793 [00:50] <swoody> +1
 794 
 795 [00:50] <jgoguen> +1
 796 
 797 [00:50] <w4ett> +1
 798 
 799 [00:50] <MootBot> +1 received from Saj0577. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
 800 
 801 [00:50] <MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
 802 
 803 [00:50] <MootBot> +1 received from jgoguen. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
 804 
 805 [00:50] <MootBot> +1 received from w4ett. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
 806 
 807 [00:51] <drs305> +1
 808 
 809 [00:51] <MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9
 810 
 811 [00:51] <cprofitt> +1
 812 
 813 [00:51] <MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 10 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 10
 814 
 815 [00:51] <bodhi_zazen> Any additional votes ?
 816 
 817 [00:51] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
 818 
 819 [00:51] <MootBot> Final result is 10 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 10
 820 
 821 [00:51] <pleia2> thanks everyone :)
 822 
 823 [00:52] <bodhi_zazen> w00t :)
 824 
 825 [00:52] <Ash_R> congratulations pleia2
 826 
 827 [00:52] <nhandler> Congrats pleia2 ! What is your LP name?
 828 
 829 [00:52] <pleia2> nhandler: lyz
 830 
 831 [00:52] <Ash_R> you earned it
 832 
 833 [00:52] <Joeb454> fwiw, if I had been paying attention I would've +1'd pleia2 :)
 834 
 835 [00:52] <bodhi_zazen> we have 8 minutes to discuss FG :)
 836 
 837 [00:52] <nhandler> pleia2: You have been added to the BT LP team
 838 
 839 [00:52] <pleia2> nhandler: thanks \o/
 840 
 841 [00:52] <Ash_R> shall i go as i have minor thing to announce?
 842 
 843 [00:53] <nhandler> I have to leave. I will read the logs later
 844 
 845 [00:53] <Joeb454> later nhandler
 846 
 847 [00:53] <bodhi_zazen> go Ash_R
 848 
 849 [00:53] <Saj0577> later nhandler
 850 
 851 [00:53] <bodhi_zazen> thanks nhandler
 852 
 853 [00:54] <Joeb454> I have something after as well :)
 854 
 855 [00:54] <Ash_R> The young new user focus group had its first meeting.  Here is the wiki page:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/YNU/Meetings/06-28-2009
 856 
 857 [00:54] <bodhi_zazen> SWEET
 858 
 859 [00:54] <Ash_R> thats about it really ;)
 860 
 861 [00:54] <Joeb454> nice
 862 
 863 [00:54] <bodhi_zazen> Thank , I think the YUN FG will be very helpful
 864 
 865 [00:54] <bodhi_zazen> Joeb454: go :)
 866 
 867 [00:54] <sdennie> Excellent Ash_R
 868 
 869 [00:55] <Joeb454> basically, after a meeting amongst the council, we decided to change some settings in the council channel
 870 
 871 [00:55] <Ash_R> though we had to put together a quick channel as it was late notice (10ish minutes) laugh out lud
 872 
 873 [00:55] <Ash_R> loud
 874 
 875 [00:55] <Joeb454> some of you may already be aware, but the channel is now +mz
 876 
 877 [00:55] <Saj0577> +mz meaning?
 878 
 879 [00:55] <Joeb454> basically this means that nobody will be able to speak without voice, however channel operators (i.e. the council) will be able to hear you
 880 
 881 [00:55] <sdennie> Militarized Zone
 882 
 883 [00:56] <bodhi_zazen> +mz == stfu :)
 884 
 885 [00:56] <Joeb454> so if you have a query to raise with the council, they can voice you and you will be heard by all
 886 
 887 [00:56] <bodhi_zazen> j/k
 888 
 889 [00:56] <Joeb454> I'm sure if it turns out to not work as we expect, we can change it back :)
 890 
 891 [00:56] <Joeb454> that's all I think :)
 892 
 893 [00:56] <sdennie> I have something to add to that
 894 
 895 [00:56] <cprofitt> The Educations FG team is still involved in the Ubuntu Community Learning Project. With the guidance that bodhi_zazen is giving it progress is being made in adopting a structure. Legal questions are still being discussed as to the license to use for courses.
 896 
 897 [00:57] <bodhi_zazen> cprofitt: is too kind
 898 
 899 [00:57] <bodhi_zazen> cprofitt: Vantrax pleia2 and doctormo deserve more credit then I do
 900 
 901 [00:57] <bodhi_zazen> really
 902 
 903 [00:57] <Joeb454> cprofitt: hopefully they'll get sorted soon
 904 
 905 [00:57] <Joeb454> and sdennie quick, add to what I said before we forget! :)
 906 
 907 [00:57] <cprofitt> it is not an easy topic...
 908 
 909 [00:57] <sdennie> We did this because the council channel was recently a very unfriendly place to be for a few incidents.  There was a lot of name calling and otherwise unfriendliness so, we decided to make it more "sanitary".
 910 
 911 [00:58] <cprofitt> and can be very contentious, but I feel the people involved while strong of opinion are stronger of desire to see the project successful
 912 
 913 [00:58] <bodhi_zazen> juat FYI I am kind of -1 on the whole +mz thing, although I am vulnerable to peer pressure
 914 
 915 [00:58] <bodhi_zazen> I like the channel to be open
 916 
 917 [00:59] <bodhi_zazen> so if there are problems or concerns PLEASE bring them forward
 918 
 919 [00:59]  * bodhi_zazen hides
 920 
 921 [00:59] <bodhi_zazen> other issues ?
 922 
 923 [00:59] <Joeb454> bodhi_zazen: I agree there, but we'll see how it pans out :) Like I said, I'm happy to change it if needs be
 924 
 925 [00:59] <sdennie> bodhi_zazen: I've turned -1 on the issue because for some reason pidgin doesn't do it right...  ;)
 926 
 927 [00:59] <bodhi_zazen> LOL sdennie
 928 
 929 [00:59] <swoody> I somewhat agree bodhi_zazen I like open channels, but when something 'official' starts in the channel, I think it should go to +mz by default
 930 
 931 [01:00] <bodhi_zazen> just helping nhandler feel better , so he is not the only one swamped with -1
 932 
 933 [01:00] <bodhi_zazen> lol
 934 
 935 [01:00] <sdennie> Haha
 936 
 937 [01:00] <sdennie> Well, if we find it doesn't work, it's easy enough to reverse the change
 938 
 939 [01:01] <sdennie> Or if people don't like it
 940 
 941 [01:01] <bodhi_zazen> +1
 942 
 943 [01:01] <bodhi_zazen> :)
 944 
 945 [01:01] <bodhi_zazen> #endmeeting
 946 
 947 [01:01] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:01.