Ubuntu Wiki

   1 [23:59] <bodhi_zazen> #startmeeting
   2 [23:59] <MootBot> Meeting started at 17:59. The chair is bodhi_zazen.
   3 [23:59] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
   4 [23:59] <bodhi_zazen> Agenda :
   5 [23:59] <bodhi_zazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
   6 [23:59] <MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
   7 [00:00] <bodhi_zazen> looks like you are up nhandler
   8 [00:00] <nhandler> A while ago, we decided to make #ubuntu-beginners-council +mz
   9 [00:01] <nhandler> This means that only voiced users can talk, and if you are unvoiced, only OPs can see what you say
  10 [00:01] <bodhi_zazen> indeed
  11 [00:01] <nhandler> This also results in non-voiced users who idle in there being unable to change their nicks
  12 [00:01]  * bodhi_zazen recalls being over ruled on that one =)
  13 [00:01]  * Rocket2DMn wasnt there for that one
  14 [00:01] <nhandler> Personally, I think +mz is not the best solution
  15 [00:02] <nhandler> I personally think we should make the channel invite only
  16 [00:02] <bodhi_zazen> well, unless the rest of the team wants to reconsider nhandler
  17 [00:02] <bodhi_zazen> that makes the vote
  18 [00:02] <bodhi_zazen> 2 against
  19 [00:02] <bodhi_zazen> and 100 for =)
  20 [00:03] <Rocket2DMn> I'm confused, how steep was the vote last time?
  21 [00:03] <bodhi_zazen> I think the channel should be open all the time
  22 [00:03] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: Several BT members have complained over the last few weeks about being unable to change their nick if they idle there
  23 [00:03] <swoody> +1 nhandler
  24 [00:03] <bodhi_zazen> and we should +mz only for official business / meetings, if at all
  25 [00:03] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: I disagree. Why should our discussions about other members be open to the public?
  26 [00:03] <Silver_Fox_> +1 bodhi_zazen
  27 === asac_ is now known as asac
  28 [00:03] <Rocket2DMn> Should anybody be idling in there other than counci lmembers?
  29 [00:03] <nhandler> Most other councils, the RMBs included have secret IRC channels and mailing lists that they use
  30 [00:03] <nhandler> Rocket2DMn: IMO, no
  31 [00:04] <bodhi_zazen> why should we have a closed channel at all =)
  32 [00:04] <bodhi_zazen> I like open
  33 [00:04] <swoody> +1 bodhi_zazen :)
  34 [00:04] <Rocket2DMn> I don't think the channel should be closed, I just don't think people should be idling in there
  35 [00:04] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: Because one of our main purposes is to deal with user conflicts, which by nature should be done privately
  36 [00:04] <Silver_Fox_> i have sat in on a council meeting.  i didn't say anything though it was nice to be there.
  37 [00:04] <nhandler> Rocket2DMn: We could implement a policy similar to #ubuntu-ops, which is open, but there is a strict no idle policy
  38 [00:05] <nhandler> You can go there to report an issue, but once the issue has been addressed, you are required to part
  39 [00:05] <bodhi_zazen> I think the channel should be open, and closed as needed, which IMO is rare if at all
  40 [00:05] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: What are your feelings about a no-idle policy?
  41 [00:06] <bodhi_zazen> I feel I will be over ruled =)
  42 [00:06] <nhandler> That would allow people to report issues, but would avoid turning the issues into a "show"
  43 [00:06] <bodhi_zazen> Whatever you all wish is OK with me
  44 [00:06] <nhandler> Any other opinions on a no-idle policy?
  45 [00:06] <bodhi_zazen> I think we can manage most of the issues via moderation
  46 [00:07] <bodhi_zazen> ask people to leave if needed
  47 [00:07] <bodhi_zazen> or change teh channel to +m or what not if needed
  48 [00:07] <superbenny> agreed, bodhi_zazen
  49 [00:07] <Rocket2DMn> both options sounds ok to me
  50 [00:07] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: What is your reasoning behind wanting people to idle in the -council channel?
  51 [00:08] <bodhi_zazen> free as in freedom
  52 [00:08] <swoody> I agree bodhi_zazen. It doesn't seem like there's been enough 'wild action' in there to require it be closed all the time. I feel a nice open channel will be useful, but make it private the few times you're going to acutally need privacy.
  53 [00:08] <bodhi_zazen> I want people to feel they can come and discuss be a part of team decisions / actions
  54 [00:08] <tronyx> hmmm not enough people in here
  55 [00:09] <superbenny> hehe
  56 [00:09] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: That is what the no-idle policy would allow. Users who have an issue would be able to go there, and work with the council to resolve it. However, once the issue is handled, they are required to /part
  57 [00:09] <Silver_Fox_> i felt that when i attended bodhi_zazen
  58 [00:09] <bodhi_zazen> Why should it be closed all the time ? Just because we occasionally need privacy ?
  59 [00:09] <bodhi_zazen> It should be moderated if there is a problem or issue, not cloesd
  60 [00:09] <bodhi_zazen> and it is hard to tell sometimes who is involved in an issue
  61 [00:09] <Silver_Fox_> is full closure heavy handed?
  62 [00:10] <bodhi_zazen> anyone who is interested can pipe in , witnesses if needed to behavior
  63 [00:10] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: You can usually tell who is directly involved and should be involved in the discussion
  64 [00:10] <bodhi_zazen> I think we loose something if the channel is closed
  65 [00:10] <nhandler> They will usually be the ones coming to the council with the issue
  66 [00:10] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: The channel would not be closed
  67 [00:10] <Rocket2DMn> It seems like most people are in favor of leaving the channel open
  68 [00:10] <dvz-> o/ what channel?
  69 [00:10] <nhandler> It would actually be more open than it is now
  70 [00:10] <nhandler> #ubuntu-beginners-council
  71 [00:10] <paultag> I think the Council channel should be Open. The issue is that we need a transparent leadership
  72 [00:10] <superbenny> honestly, what is really discussed that is so secretive? i feel like the whole point is an open discussion area where people who have something to contribute are able to
  73 [00:10] <paultag> +1 superbenny
  74 [00:11] <paultag> The issue is really respect of someone who breaks the rules. We don't want to cause issues with reputation
  75 [00:11] <paultag> The best solution to that is to handle most matters over PM
  76 [00:11] <swoody> +1 paultag
  77 [00:11] <paultag> If the issue is at the Council, it is a big issue and the team should be involved
  78 [00:11] <bodhi_zazen> The channel feel closed to me if it is +mz and I am an op =)
  79 [00:11] <nhandler> Nobody is saying "secret". All decissions would be made public. But if we are discussing a user's actions, I don't think that non-involved people need to be watching
  80 [00:11] <paultag> nhandler, ^
  81 [00:11] <superbenny> this is true, but that's where moderation comes in. we have focus groups devoted to IRC, why not let them do their job?
  82 [00:12] <Silver_Fox_> are the logs for the council meetings available?
  83 [00:12] <nhandler> paultag: With the no-idle policy, people who are actively involved in the issue would be able to participate
  84 [00:12] <paultag> nhandler, I understand that
  85 [00:12] <nhandler> The whole idea is to get rid of the people who simply idle in there and watch
  86 [00:12] <paultag> nhandler, but if it hits council, it's a team move. Any team member should be allowed to idle
  87 [00:12] <bodhi_zazen> why do idlers bother you nhandler ?
  88 [00:12] <nhandler> This would also be more in line with what almost all other Ubuntu councils do
  89 [00:13] <paultag> nhandler, we are a small team. We can still involve everyone
  90 [00:13] <superbenny> nhandler, if its going to be made public anyway, why keep it secret for a couple extra minutes? if something sensitive is being discussed, +m so that only people involved can talk, but eventually, the logs are out there anyway.
  91 [00:13] <superbenny> +1, paultag
  92 [00:13] <paultag> We don't need the  MOTU council
  93 [00:13] <paultag> that would hurt us a lot
  94 [00:13] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: Because the users there are watching for entertainment. A good number of them have no interest in working towards a solution
  95 [00:13] <Silver_Fox_> unless the logs are edited via snips
  96 [00:13] <nhandler> paultag: The MC is actually pretty open
  97 [00:13] <bodhi_zazen> Ah I see
  98 [00:14] <paultag> nhandler, I take that back. Whatever councils you talk about then.
  99 [00:14] <swoody> -1 on the idlers nhandler. There are a lot of team members who like to see what goes on behind the curtain. Having an open channel for council will show members who are curious just how the Council works, and if they feel that would be something they would like to pursue in the future.
 100 [00:14] <Rocket2DMn> It's an #ubuntu channel - doesn't that mean the logs are posted directly online?
 101 [00:14] <bodhi_zazen> Well, I am not sure about that nhandler
 102 [00:14] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: But for instance, the CC has a private mailing list, so does the TB
 103 [00:14] <nhandler> #ubuntu-ops has a no-idle policy
 104 [00:14] <bodhi_zazen> I think most of the idlers are interested in leadersip
 105 [00:14] <nhandler> the RMBs have private lists and irc channels
 106 [00:14] <superbenny> editing logs would go against the whole idea of open-source. nothing that we discuss is that life-changing, that it needs to be kept top-secret.
 107 [00:14] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: If you look at the logs for our last few discussions, that is not the case
 108 [00:14] <bodhi_zazen> either learning by watching or wanting to be a part of the team, I could be wrong
 109 [00:14] <nhandler> superbenny: Nobody mentioned editing logs
 110 [00:14] <Silver_Fox_> are we #ubuntu-ops ?  why do we want to emulate them?
 111 [00:15] <bodhi_zazen> and I have never seen anyone take an issue out of the channel and mis use the information
 112 [00:15] <superbenny> nhandler, <Silver_Fox_> unless the logs are edited via snips
 113 [00:15] <nhandler> Silver_Fox_: We are an Ubuntu Council, so we should be learning from councils like the CC
 114 [00:15] <nhandler> superbenny: But nobody said that we would be ;)
 115 [00:15] <paultag> I disagree. I think we need leadership that fits our model
 116 [00:15] <superbenny> fair enough
 117 [00:15] <superbenny> +1 paultag
 118 [00:16] <nhandler> paultag: So if we were discussing your poor behavior, you would be fine with everyone watching?
 119 [00:16] <tronyx> i agree with paultag
 120 [00:16] <paultag> nhandler, any team member should be able to contribute to the discussion about my poor behavior, yes
 121 [00:16] <Rocket2DMn> Ok, I think this discussion is wearing out.  Are there written guidelines about how Ubuntu Councils should use their resources? If not, I think we can look at other councils, but we don't need to do what they do - we are capable of figuring out what is best for us specifically
 122 [00:16] <nhandler> paultag: Contribute is one thing, but should they all be able to sit and watch
 123 [00:16] <paultag> nhandler, sure
 124 [00:16] <tronyx> imho if it were my poor behavior or paultag's behavior and it is impacting the whole team, everyone is already effected so everyone should be aware of the resolution
 125 [00:16] <paultag> nhandler, any team member is directly affected by my behavior
 126 [00:16] <superbenny> nhandler, honestly, thats part of the punishment.
 127 [00:16] <nhandler> paultag: In that case, I don't think we should have a -council at all
 128 [00:16] <superbenny> besides, the logs will be made public anyway
 129 [00:16] <nhandler> Just do it all in the main IRC channel
 130 [00:16] <paultag> nhandler, I disagree with that
 131 [00:17] <paultag> nhandler, I think the council is a quiet corner to do that in
 132 [00:17] <swoody> nhandler:  I believe paultag mentioned about using PM's before. I feel that anything that is not severe enough should be public, and for those things which are too much for a public channel can be expressed via PM
 133 [00:17] <paultag> +1 swoody
 134 [00:17] <superbenny> +1 swoody
 135 [00:17] <paultag> I always handle issues over PM before they hit council
 136 [00:17] <nhandler> swoody: PMs are only for 1 on 1, not a group chat
 137 [00:18] <superbenny> right, but why make it a group chat if someone just needs a warning?
 138 [00:18] <nhandler> paultag: If everyone is idling in there and "participating" it is not any more quiet than the main channel
 139 [00:18] <paultag> I say we defer this
 140 [00:18] <bodhi_zazen> I think nhandler has a point, but ...
 141 [00:18] <bodhi_zazen> only to a point
 142 [00:18] <swoody> nhandler:  well as bodhi_zazen also suggested, maybe that would be the time to use moderation power to make the #council channel more private
 143 [00:18] <paultag> OK, we have a lot to talk about. Lets do this later with the whole team
 144 [00:18] <nhandler> swoody: That doesn't make it any more private
 145 [00:18] <paultag> this is not the place to argue, this is the meeting. Let's hit the ML
 146 [00:18] <Rocket2DMn> no paultag , lets settle this now
 147 [00:18] <bodhi_zazen> I do believe there are times when the channel will need to be closed
 148 [00:18] <nhandler> paultag: I am ok with that
 149 [00:18] <paultag> Rocket2DMn, I think we need to talk about it more
 150 [00:18] <Rocket2DMn> this is a team meeting
 151 [00:18] <paultag> Rocket2DMn, we are ill-prepared for it
 152 [00:18] <nhandler> I have to run to dinner anyway
 153 [00:18] <bodhi_zazen> outside of those times, unless there is a good reason, leave it open would be my 2c
 154 [00:18] <Rocket2DMn> alright, whatever
 155 [00:19] <swoody> +1 bodhi_zazen
 156 [00:19] <tronyx> may i interject? i never say much during the meetings
 157 [00:19] <Rocket2DMn> shall we take off the +mc for now?
 158 [00:19] <bodhi_zazen> yes tronyx
 159 [00:19]  * tronyx begins typing
 160 [00:19] <bodhi_zazen> no Rocket2DMn
 161 [00:19] <bodhi_zazen> I think we need to use the meeting time to discuss these issues
 162 [00:19] <bodhi_zazen> we are all here ;)
 163 [00:19] <bodhi_zazen> ml == borring
 164 [00:19] <tronyx> there is a lot to be said for the council channel and just who can be in there.  i know this isn't 'our' channel and the CoC applies but for those of you who know me, you know what i am getting at
 165 [00:19] <swoody> heh, +1 bodhi_zazen
 166 [00:19] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, it's on the Wiki :P the Meetings are not for arguing about the issue
 167 [00:20] <swoody> it allows us to explore more ideas in a few seconds of real-time chat, that a few dozen emails spread out over days
 168 [00:20] <tronyx> simply put, if you are an asshole, it effects all users in ubuntuforums-beginners.  if your behavior effects the whole team, than you had better be prepared for everyone to know about it
 169 [00:20]  * bodhi_zazen edits the wiki
 170 [00:20] <Silver_Fox_> can i make a request on a new topic?  if time allows
 171 [00:20] <tronyx> and it may also provide incentive for people to act like adults and part of the communityh
 172 [00:20] <bodhi_zazen> yes Silver_Fox_ :)
 173 [00:20] <tronyx> let's take montel for example, i am sure his expulsion was addressed in private, but before there, it effected us all
 174 [00:20] <paultag> It was
 175 [00:20] <paultag> I talked in PM a lot
 176 [00:21] <paultag> it was only a last resort to involve Council, and then the team
 177 [00:21] <tronyx> eventually we all know/knew what happened and that is that.  but it effected everyone
 178 [00:21] <tronyx> i think that if someone is going to contribute, be active and be productive, they have just as much of a place on the 'council' as anyone else
 179 [00:21] <bodhi_zazen> Let us take a non-binding vote, to see what the consensus is, and move teh discussion to ML
 180 [00:21] <bodhi_zazen> then move to another topic ?
 181 [00:22] <paultag> +1
 182 [00:22] <Silver_Fox_> sounds good to me bodhi_zazen
 183 [00:22] <superbenny> +1 bodhi_zazen
 184 [00:22] <bodhi_zazen> [VOTE]Should the #ubuntu-beginners-council be +mz +1 = yes ; -1 = open channel
 185 [00:22] <MootBot> Please vote on: Should the #ubuntu-beginners-council be +mz +1 = yes ; -1 = open channel.
 186 [00:22] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
 187 [00:22] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
 188 [00:22] <bodhi_zazen> -1
 189 [00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
 190 [00:22] <paultag> -1
 191 [00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from paultag. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
 192 [00:22] <Silver_Fox_> -1
 193 [00:22] <dvz-> -1
 194 [00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from Silver_Fox_. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
 195 [00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from dvz-. 0 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -4
 196 [00:22] <swoody> -1
 197 [00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from swoody. 0 for, 5 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -5
 198 [00:22] <drs305> -1
 199 [00:22] <MootBot> -1 received from drs305. 0 for, 6 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -6
 200 [00:22] <MootBot> Private -1 vote received. 0 for, 7 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now -7
 201 [00:23] <TuxPurple> -1
 202 [00:23] <tronyx> -1
 203 [00:23] <superbenny> -1
 204 [00:23] <MootBot> -1 received from tronyx. 0 for, 8 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -8
 205 [00:23] <MootBot> -1 received from superbenny. 0 for, 9 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -9
 206 [00:23] <MootBot> -1 received from TuxPurple. 0 for, 10 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -10
 207 [00:23] <bodhi_zazen> Any additional votes ?
 208 [00:23]  * bodhi_zazen notes nhandler is probably +1
 209 [00:24] <swoody> well I feel that about sums it up right there :)
 210 [00:24] <Silver_Fox_> what about rocket?
 211 [00:24] <superbenny> agreed, swoody
 212 [00:24] <Rocket2DMn> i vote privately
 213 [00:24] <superbenny> hehe
 214 [00:24] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
 215 [00:24] <MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 10 against. 0 abstained. Total: -10
 216 [00:24] <superbenny> more -9 with nhandler
 217 [00:24] <bodhi_zazen> [IDEA]No more +mz on #ubuntu-beginners-council
 218 [00:24] <MootBot> IDEA received: No more +mz on #ubuntu-beginners-council
 219 [00:25] <bodhi_zazen> [ACTION}Council to discuss opening channel
 220 [00:25] <MootBot> ACTION received: [ACTION}Council to discuss opening channel
 221 [00:25] <bodhi_zazen> Silver_Fox_: did you have a topic ?
 222 [00:26] <Silver_Fox_> minor thing,  more of a request
 223 [00:26] <Silver_Fox_> bodhi_zazen, ^
 224 [00:26] <bodhi_zazen> OK, go for it ;)
 225 [00:26] <Silver_Fox_> I would like to request that agenda items not go up less than 5 minutes prior to meeting starting
 226 [00:27] <Silver_Fox_> it doesn't seem organised
 227 [00:27] <bodhi_zazen> indeed
 228 [00:27] <Rocket2DMn> Silver_Fox_, items are supposed to be on the agenda in advance, but we didnt have many items today
 229 [00:27] <dvz-> o/ bodhi_zazen i have a topic but i think it may have to wait..in luie of Silver_Fox_ topic
 230 [00:27] <dvz-> lol
 231 [00:27] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC]"Do something"
 232 [00:27] <MootBot> New Topic: "Do something"
 233 [00:28] <swoody> +1 Silver_Fox_ although I feel that's more of a personal thing, and someone who has a topic they want to add should just wait to put it on the next meeting's agenda
 234 [00:28] <bodhi_zazen> this is sort of an old topic, from last time
 235 [00:28] <bodhi_zazen> paultag: poke =)
 236 [00:28] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, hola
 237 [00:28] <bodhi_zazen> there was a discussion on the council / leadership / assigning tasks to those who need assignments
 238 [00:28] <bodhi_zazen> something like that
 239 [00:28] <paultag> Yes indeed
 240 [00:28] <bodhi_zazen> go paultag =)
 241 [00:29]  * paultag starts
 242 [00:29] <superbenny> really sorry guys, i need to run and make dinner. i might be back by the end of the meeting.
 243 [00:29] <paultag> The idea here is really one from the ( now MIA ) JoshuaRL and myself
 244 [00:30] <paultag> We wanted to create a system, a "pipeline" if you will from the UBT to the wider community. We would have tasks that would help the wider community, and track them with new members, or members who would want to use the system. NOT required, just a helpful structure
 245 [00:30] <paultag> Any ideas, questions, concerns>
 246 [00:30] <paultag> s/>/?/
 247 [00:31] <paultag> This system would work in tandem with the Focus Groups
 248 [00:31] <bodhi_zazen> I think it would be a good idea, you willing to maintain such a list ?
 249 [00:31] <Silver_Fox_> track them how paultag ?
 250 [00:31] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, yes. I am undergoing the task of figuring out how to track them
 251 [00:31] <bodhi_zazen> If so, I would suggest we start it and see how it works out
 252 [00:31] <swoody> paultag:  How would this tracking system be setup? What exactly would you use to list the assingments that need to be done?
 253 [00:31] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, We were using LP, but it is not proving fruitful
 254 [00:32] <bodhi_zazen> Well, that may be a problem paultag :)
 255 [00:32] <paultag> swoody, that is up to discussion by anyone who would like to contribute. I thought it like a bug tracking system
 256 [00:32] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, Well, I Have a workaround
 257 [00:32] <bodhi_zazen> linky ?
 258 [00:32] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, LP OpenID Auth'd homebrew tracker
 259 [00:32] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, It's almost done. I was going to test it
 260 [00:33] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, active version is here: http://whube.com
 261 [00:33] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, it's not working well yet, and that is outdated.
 262 [00:33] <bodhi_zazen> Well, let us see how it goes then
 263 [00:34] <paultag> Anyone interested in helping?
 264 [00:34] <bodhi_zazen> may I suggest you start with either a forms thread or wiki page ?
 265 [00:34] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, I'll start a Wiki
 266 [00:34] <bodhi_zazen> and transition to whube.com when ready ?
 267 [00:34] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, Sure. that is just my sandbox for now, perhaps a btdev subdomain down the line?
 268 [00:34] <bodhi_zazen> along these lines, paultag, ...
 269 [00:34] <Silver_Fox_> paultag,  i will help
 270 [00:34] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, I mean, ufbt*
 271 [00:34] <paultag> Silver_Fox_, thank you :)
 272 [00:34] <bodhi_zazen> Are there any suggestions on what the team would like to see in terms of leadership ?
 273 [00:35] <Silver_Fox_> it is no trouble paultag ,  you know that ;)
 274 [00:35] <dvz-> bodhi_zazen: leadership in what capacity and to what topic?
 275 [00:35] <bodhi_zazen> yes paultag that domain is open
 276 [00:35] <bodhi_zazen> =)
 277 [00:35] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, ok, outstanding :)
 278 [00:35] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, also, if I have the floor RE administration, I have a topic
 279 [00:35] <bodhi_zazen> dvz-: there has been some quite discussions in dark corners about having the leadership of this team 'do more"
 280 [00:36] <bodhi_zazen> and I am looking for input / advice
 281 [00:36] <bodhi_zazen> if it is on topic paultag , please
 282 [00:36] <paultag> OK
 283 [00:36] <paultag> ajmorris has been AFK for the last months -- Silver_Fox_ has stepped up on the IRC team to be an interm leader. I am looking for team advice on how we should handle a member who dropped off the face
 284 [00:36] <paultag> I would like to see Silver_Fox_ take on aj's role, but I don't want to get rid of him without talking to him
 285 [00:36] <bodhi_zazen> exactly as you said paultag
 286 [00:36] <bodhi_zazen> find a willing replacement
 287 [00:36] <dvz-> paultag: I believe AJ had resigned from his roles and made mention of leaving prior to
 288 [00:36] <nhandler> paultag: Members who let their membership on LP expire are de-voiced, and are technically not BT members until they show up again
 289 [00:37] <paultag> dvz-, OK
 290 [00:37] <bodhi_zazen> I would think council discussion / action
 291 [00:37] <paultag> nhandler, ok, thank you
 292 [00:37] <Silver_Fox_> i am a willing replacement
 293 [00:37] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, OK, so then with the team's blessing, Moving Silver_Fox_ to IRC Co-Lead
 294 [00:37] <bodhi_zazen> what nhandler said
 295 [00:37] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, I am requesting it, and Silver_Fox_ is willing
 296 [00:37] <bodhi_zazen> I have devoiced a few people in the past few days
 297 [00:37] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: Anyone other than st33med and ajmorris?
 298 [00:38] <bodhi_zazen> not to me mean, but rather to keep team / voice membership "up to date" if you will
 299 [00:38] <bodhi_zazen> yes nhandler
 300 [00:38] <bodhi_zazen> overdrank
 301 [00:38] <bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] Silver_Fox_ to be IRC co-lead ?
 302 [00:38] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Silver_Fox_ to be IRC co-lead ?.
 303 [00:38] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
 304 [00:38] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
 305 [00:38] <bodhi_zazen> +1
 306 [00:38] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
 307 [00:38] <dvz-> +1
 308 [00:38] <MootBot> +1 received from dvz-. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
 309 [00:38] <Silver_Fox_> +1
 310 [00:38] <paultag> +1
 311 [00:38] <MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
 312 [00:38] <MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
 313 [00:39] <nhandler> +0
 314 [00:39] <MootBot> Abstention received from nhandler. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
 315 [00:39] <bodhi_zazen> I think FG leads should if at all  possible be team decisions
 316 [00:39] <drs305> +1
 317 [00:39] <MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
 318 [00:39] <MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 6 for, 0 against, 1 have abstained. Count is now 6
 319 [00:39] <bodhi_zazen> any additional votes ?
 320 [00:40] <TuxPurple> +1
 321 [00:40] <MootBot> +1 received from TuxPurple. 7 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 7
 322 [00:40] <swoody> +1
 323 [00:40] <MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 8 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 8
 324 [00:40] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
 325 [00:40] <MootBot> Final result is 8 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 8
 326 [00:40] <bodhi_zazen> [AGREED] Silver_Fox_ to co-lead the IRC group
 327 [00:40] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Silver_Fox_ to co-lead the IRC group
 328 [00:40] <Silver_Fox_> thank you everyone
 329 [00:40] <paultag> thank you Silver_Fox_ :)
 330 [00:41] <bodhi_zazen> I want to mention one thing b4 we move to new members
 331 [00:41] <bodhi_zazen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/YNU/Conduct
 332 [00:41] <bodhi_zazen> The YNU FG !!!
 333 [00:41] <paultag> \o/
 334 [00:41] <jgoguen> \o/
 335 [00:41] <bodhi_zazen> I am very excited about this FG
 336 [00:41] <vorian> FG!!
 337 [00:42] <dvz-> o/
 338 [00:42] <Silver_Fox_> oh that ;)
 339 [00:42] <Silver_Fox_> \O/
 340 [00:42] <bodhi_zazen> I was going to name the group immature brats , but YNU seems better
 341 [00:42] <dvz-> i like immature brats.
 342 [00:42] <swoody> +! dvz-
 343 [00:42] <paultag> But then I would have to join :(
 344 [00:42] <bodhi_zazen> thank you to everyone for putting a team together
 345 [00:42] <nhandler> bodhi_zazen: Are you fine with people just editing that page, or do you want changes to go through the YNU FG ?
 346 [00:43] <bodhi_zazen> It is a wiki
 347 [00:43] <bodhi_zazen> we can always blacklist their IP or undo changes if we need =)
 348 [00:43] <nhandler> Just making sure, I see a few things I would like to change
 349 [00:43] <dvz-> speaking of teams...and before voting, bodhi_zazen - may i bring a last minute topic up for prediscussion?
 350 [00:43] <bodhi_zazen> sec dvz-
 351 [00:43] <dvz-> surely
 352 [00:44] <bodhi_zazen> the idea of the YNU FG is to help immature people fit better into first our team and ultimately into the greater Ubuntu Community
 353 [00:44] <bodhi_zazen> many of these people require a little time an patience, but then are awesome
 354 [00:44] <jgoguen> nhandler: I threw that page together quickly using ESR's ramblings and my experience as references, please do clean it up :)
 355 [00:44] <bodhi_zazen> If not, root them out fast
 356 [00:44] <bodhi_zazen> =)
 357 [00:45] <Silver_Fox_> I like the term nurture
 358 [00:45] <bodhi_zazen> like he who shall remain nameless less we awaken his bot army
 359 [00:45] <jgoguen> lol
 360 [00:45] <bodhi_zazen> OK dvz- you are up =)
 361 [00:46] <dvz-> for IRC trend for the beginners team is currently #ubuntu-beginners(-FG).   we seem to have quite a few people going to -beginners for help questions..and then we redirect them to -beginners-help.   the team is, in fact, like a big fg - so why not create a channel #ubuntu-beginners-team  and use #ubuntu-beginners  as the new -help channel?  i think the current team channel is a tad misleading.
 362 [00:47] <bodhi_zazen> Aggg !
 363 [00:47] <Silver_Fox_> can we not rename #ubuntu-beginners-help
 364 [00:47] <bodhi_zazen> I would have to re-do all the access list, 70 something :)
 365 [00:47] <dvz-> i first joined #ubuntuforums-beginners because i thought it was a channel for beginners to ask help questions in
 366 [00:48] <bodhi_zazen> I am OK with moving, it is not a bad idea
 367 [00:48] <bodhi_zazen> on the other hand, I am OK with new users wandering in as well, kind of makes the channel, well, interesting
 368 [00:48] <Rocket2DMn> -1 on moving, a few people wandering in isnt bad
 369 [00:48] <Rocket2DMn> besides, they are finding people who know whats up
 370 [00:48] <bodhi_zazen> if it is a huge support question, move the discussion to -help ?
 371 [00:49] <swoody> +1 bodhi_zazen
 372 [00:49] <dvz-> sure, but then why are we telling them to go to a help channel when we can keep the people who are currently in -beginners there and just almost duplicate it in -team...if members are so concerned about redirecting help questions
 373 [00:49] <bodhi_zazen> shall we vote on that ?
 374 [00:49] <dvz-> i like that idea bodhi_zazen
 375 [00:49] <bodhi_zazen> Well dvz-
 376 [00:49] <nhandler> I think it is a good thing that users are landing in the main team channel.
 377 [00:49] <bodhi_zazen> short help questions are fine
 378 [00:49] <nhandler> We can then point them to the correct location for their questions
 379 [00:49] <paultag> I'll BRB. I am voting +0
 380 [00:50] <swoody> I feel anyone who may wander into #u-b should be directed to #u-b-h
 381 [00:50] <Rocket2DMn> the same thing happens in every ubuntu channel ive ever been in, people inevitably wander in
 382 [00:50] <bodhi_zazen> but long discussions on iptables or other esoteric questions posting config files to pastebin deserve privacy =)
 383 [00:50] <dvz-> wandering is fine...but rather than wandering into a channel you think is a help channel and then being redirected to another channel with less users...i think it's counterproductive at times.
 384 [00:51] <bodhi_zazen> +1 dvz-
 385 [00:51] <Silver_Fox_> it happened with Kangarooo earlier
 386 [00:51] <bodhi_zazen> so if they ask or need support , dish it out ;)
 387 [00:51] <bodhi_zazen> if the discussion is getting long, move it
 388 [00:51] <dvz-> +1 bodhi_zazen
 389 [00:51] <swoody> +1 bodhi_zazen
 390 [00:51] <bodhi_zazen> if we get a ton of counter productive traffic we can move
 391 [00:52] <bodhi_zazen> most people do not mind moving to another channel for support, at least in my experience
 392 [00:52] <bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] Should we move to -team ?
 393 [00:52] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Should we move to -team ?.
 394 [00:52] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
 395 [00:52] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
 396 [00:52] <bodhi_zazen> -1
 397 [00:52] <MootBot> -1 received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
 398 [00:52] <dvz-> +0
 399 [00:52] <MootBot> Abstention received from dvz-. 0 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
 400 [00:52] <Rocket2DMn> -1
 401 [00:52] <MootBot> -1 received from Rocket2DMn. 0 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -2
 402 [00:52] <bodhi_zazen> any more votes ?
 403 [00:53] <bodhi_zazen> hehehe
 404 [00:53] <Silver_Fox_> -1
 405 [00:53] <MootBot> -1 received from Silver_Fox_. 0 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -3
 406 [00:53] <Snova> -1
 407 [00:53] <MootBot> -1 received from Snova. 0 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -4
 408 [00:53] <TuxPurple> +0
 409 [00:53] <MootBot> Abstention received from TuxPurple. 0 for, 4 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -4
 410 [00:53] <swoody> -1
 411 [00:53] <MootBot> -1 received from swoody. 0 for, 5 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -5
 412 [00:53] <drs305> +0
 413 [00:53] <MootBot> Abstention received from drs305. 0 for, 5 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -5
 414 [00:53] <jgoguen> -1
 415 [00:53] <MootBot> -1 received from jgoguen. 0 for, 6 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -6
 416 [00:53] <bodhi_zazen> any more votes ?
 417 [00:54] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
 418 [00:54] <MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 6 against. 3 abstained. Total: -6
 419 [00:54] <bodhi_zazen> shall we do
 420 [00:54] <bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC]New Members
 421 [00:54] <MootBot> New Topic: New Members
 422 [00:54] <paultag> Oh!
 423 [00:54] <dvz-> i don't know much of him to give much of a rundown
 424 [00:54] <paultag> I am here, can we do Wiebelhaus quick?
 425 [00:54] <paultag> I need to cook, and I am just about to get up
 426 [00:55] <paultag> ( sorry for breaking protocol here )
 427 [00:55] <bodhi_zazen> yes paultag
 428 [00:55] <bodhi_zazen> is Wiebelhaus here ?
 429 [00:55] <paultag> Wiebelhaus is not here right now, but most of you know him pretty well. I think he is a damn fine member, and worthy of the team :)
 430 [00:55] <Silver_Fox_> no
 431 [00:55] <jgoguen> Not in here
 432 [00:55] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, it's been about two meetings he has been up for it
 433 [00:55] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, can we do a absentee vote?
 434 [00:56] <bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] Wiebelhaus for membership
 435 [00:56] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Wiebelhaus for membership.
 436 [00:56] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
 437 [00:56] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
 438 [00:56] <bodhi_zazen> +0
 439 [00:56] <MootBot> Abstention received from bodhi_zazen. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
 440 [00:56] <dvz-> +1
 441 [00:56] <MootBot> +1 received from dvz-. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
 442 [00:56] <drs305> +1
 443 [00:56] <paultag> +1
 444 [00:56] <MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
 445 [00:56] <MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
 446 [00:56] <jgoguen> +1
 447 [00:56] <MootBot> +1 received from jgoguen. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
 448 [00:56] <Silver_Fox_> +0
 449 [00:56] <MootBot> Abstention received from Silver_Fox_. 4 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 4
 450 [00:56] <MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 5 for, 0 against, 2 have abstained. Count is now 5
 451 [00:57] <Snova> +1
 452 [00:57] <MootBot> +1 received from Snova. 6 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 6
 453 [00:57] <bodhi_zazen> any additional votes ?
 454 [00:57] <paultag> I think that's it
 455 [00:57] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
 456 [00:57] <MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 6
 457 [00:57] <paultag> bodhi_zazen, Thank you for making that exception -- and on that note I am off, time too cook :)
 458 [00:57] <bodhi_zazen> np
 459 [00:58] <bodhi_zazen> anyone want to speak / vote on leoquant ?
 460 [00:58] <Silver_Fox_> +1
 461 [00:58] <bodhi_zazen> http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=155157
 462 [00:58] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=155157
 463 [00:58] <bodhi_zazen> Silver_Fox_: you wish to speak ?
 464 [00:59] <bodhi_zazen> I know leoquant from the forums
 465 [00:59] <Silver_Fox_> bodhi_zazen,  no,  i am willing to vote
 466 [00:59] <bodhi_zazen> Ah , OK
 467 [01:00] <bodhi_zazen> leoquant is an ubuntu member and seems quite knowledgeable, IMO
 468 [01:00] <bodhi_zazen> let us vote, abstain to vote later ;)
 469 [01:00] <bodhi_zazen> [VOTE] leoquant for membership
 470 [01:00] <MootBot> Please vote on:  leoquant for membership.
 471 [01:00] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
 472 [01:00] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
 473 [01:00] <drs305> +0
 474 [01:00] <MootBot> Abstention received from drs305. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
 475 [01:00] <MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 1 for, 0 against, 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
 476 [01:00] <bodhi_zazen> +1
 477 [01:00] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
 478 [01:01] <Silver_Fox_> +1
 479 [01:01] <MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
 480 [01:01] <Snova> +1
 481 [01:01] <MootBot> +1 received from Snova. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
 482 [01:01] <swoody> +1
 483 [01:01] <MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
 484 [01:01] <TuxPurple> +1
 485 [01:01] <MootBot> +1 received from TuxPurple. 6 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 6
 486 [01:02] <bodhi_zazen> any additional votes ?
 487 [01:02] <bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
 488 [01:02] <MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 6
 489 [01:02] <bodhi_zazen> we are almost out of time
 490 [01:02] <bodhi_zazen> I have a general announcement that should interest most of the team
 491 [01:03] <bodhi_zazen> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1876
 492 [01:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1876
 493 [01:04] <bodhi_zazen> Any other topics or shall we end the meeting ?
 494 [01:04] <Rocket2DMn> We're over an hour, better end
 495 [01:04] <bodhi_zazen> Thank you all for coming and your contributions to both the team and Ubuntu
 496 [01:05] <bodhi_zazen> #endmeeting
 497 [01:05] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:05.