== General Agenda Items and Proposals == PLEASE COME TO THE MEETINGS PREPARED. This means: 1. If there is an issue for the team, add it to the agenda. 1. Agenda items then should be discussed "informally" on #ubuntufourms-beginners. 90 % of the discussion should have taken place before the meeting. 1. Meetings are primarily for decision making/team votes. Read the agenda and discuss your thoughts before the meeting. 10 % (or less) of the discussion should happen during the meeting. 1. Agenda items that require more then 5 minutes of discussion may need to be deferred. ||Who || What || || [[nhandler]] || [[http://www.jonobacon.org/2009/11/10/creating-a-roadmap-for-more-successful-teams/|Creation of a Roadmap]] || || [[lyz|pleia2]] || Help with UserDaysTeam on Ubuntu User Days || || [[lyz|pleia2]] || Public channel logging || === Agenda discussion === * Security Focus Group - new page, launchpad team, mission summary == Log == {{{#!IRC [22:12:57] duanedesign: how about you run the meeting, it's not hard. And ya don't need votebot, I'd do it but my class terminates in 30 minutes at latest then I go. [22:13:12] Sure [22:13:18] i think pleia2 is around.. probably she could [22:13:29] agenda? [22:13:33] TOPIC- Roadmaps [22:13:34] nigel_nb: I'm already in two meetings at once ;) [22:13:49] Duane Duane Duane Duane Duane Duane Duane Duane Duane Duane Duane Duane Duane Duane [22:13:51] pleia2: oh :) [22:13:55] Agenda for folks to read ahead > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings [22:13:55] Lots of ideas get thrown around and then little happens on them. This is something the whole community is wrestling with. [22:14:3] And people, lets quit the spam! [22:14:11] Roadmaps are a quick and easy way for us to be more productive and organized. [22:14:54] they are based around OBJECTIVE [22:14:58] GOALS [22:15:12] SUCCESS CRITERIA [22:15:31] and DRIVER [22:15:41] I think we get idea, why caps? I agree, but how specific do you think is required? [22:15:44] the objective is what we want to accomplish [22:16:16] the caps are highlighting the 'points' [22:16:19] :p [22:16:39] some of the things that we have discussed recently [22:16:48] that would make good roadmaps [22:16:58] o/ [22:17:1] 1. Improve the membership process [22:17:8] yes forestpiskie [22:17:11] duanedesign: ah right, looking over page now. Should have read earlier. Been a bit busy. [22:17:29] 2. Increase mentors in Help [22:17:39] are we trying to have a meeting? [22:17:45] forestpiskie: yes [22:18:8] ok - cool - who's chair then? [22:18:23] i am? since im not a member.. lol [22:18:25] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Roadmaps/Lucid/LoCoCouncil [22:18:27] forestpiskie: we are. Minus bodhi and nhandler. Duane [22:18:33] here is a sample roadmap [22:18:37] I can't do it, leaving in a moment. [22:19:0] descending slowly into chaos are we then lol [22:19:20] Do you wish me to do it? [22:19:21] >:) [22:19:27] well we don;t need bodhi et al - we can do it :) [22:19:43] Silver-Fox-: you go to sleep, your sick! [22:19:54] the roadmaps were used extensively at UDS for planning work that wants to get done during the lucid cycle [22:19:57] So? [22:20:0] duanedesign: do we have more objectives? or the 2 that you gave are starters? [22:20:0] sorry I am late - mate turned up [22:20:1] as you can see it is just basically get our ideas down and have measurable goals [22:20:1] so far it's been really great for putting projects on track [22:20:5] and with that, I turn off. About to run out. [22:20:26] thouse 2 are the only topics we have? [22:20:35] meeting ? [22:20:39] some other benefits of roadmaps [22:20:43] Direction – one of the biggest complaints teams often report is a lack of direction. If a team gets into the habit of creating a roadmap at the beginning of a cycle, it gives the team a sense of focus and direction for the coming cycle. [22:20:53] bodhi_zazen: yes you late [22:20:54] welcome bodhi_zazen [22:20:55] Documented commitments are more effective – a common rule in Project Management training is that actions assigned to people in a shared document are more effective than ad-hoc or private commitments. [22:20:57] :) [22:20:58] =) [22:21:6] Feeling of success – regularly revisiting a roadmap and checking off items that have been completed can develop a strong feeling of progress and success. It makes a team feel productive. [22:21:23] +1 ^^ [22:21:24] o/ [22:21:29] please [22:21:37] I think jono has done a good job at explaining and creating templates for the roadmaps [22:21:59] the biggest issue i see is how we come up with objectives [22:22:3] yes forestpiskie [22:22:4] oh hai Rocket2DMn [22:22:16] forestpiskie: say what you wanted to say. [22:22:22] once upon a time we had peaceful meetings in here where if people wanted to sya something we o/ - then it ran much more fluently [22:22:30] hi, are awe having th meeting here or in #ubuntu-meeting ? [22:22:31] true [22:22:31] duanedesign +1 [22:22:40] I just came here - late - and it is chaos :( [22:22:43] Rocket2DMn: here [22:22:45] o/ FTW =) [22:22:49] /a [22:22:53] sorry [22:22:58] Rocket2DMn: the other channnel has CC in it [22:23:6] k, thanks, sorry im late [22:23:6] +1 forestpiskie, we need to cut the banter down during meetings [22:23:6] I am upset at the chaos [22:23:27] can we please just work through any agenda we have and then get to members [22:23:46] <_marx_> ease up people duanedesign stepped up to chair the meeting... [22:23:54] I was covering the agenda item for nhandler [22:24:5] <_marx_> stands corrected [22:24:11] Sorry, I thought the meeting was later =) [22:24:11] cool - but if people need to speak then o/ [22:24:30] ort perhaps we need to go to moderated then only voiced people can speak [22:24:34] Where are we on the agenda ? [22:24:42] roadmaps [22:24:52] o/ [22:24:53] there bodhi_zazen ;) [22:25:3] drubin [22:25:7] drubin: [22:25:22] forestpiskie: The problem isn't the unvoiced people it is the rest of the team. [22:25:40] o/ [22:25:43] We need to cut down the chatter during meetings. [22:25:57] I sent out a lot of stuff on the mailing list on this topic, [22:26:3] Roadmaps that is [22:26:9] o/ [22:26:15] does anyone have any questions [22:26:17] If you wish to speak on - topic, just speak [22:26:30] otherwise, save it to the end of the meeting please =) [22:26:35] ty [22:26:46] === Topic === [22:26:49] Roadmap [22:27:1] Who is interested in developing a Roadmap for the team ? [22:27:10] o/ [22:27:26] i think we have at least two objectives [22:27:34] that have come up recently [22:27:36] the team should have one, I am willing to help out :) [22:27:41] o/ [22:27:49] improve the membership process [22:27:55] (offering help on roadmap) [22:27:55] I am happy to help to pleia2 [22:27:56] increase support in help [22:28:9] I too wish to help pleia2 :) [22:28:15] o/ a word on the padawan process [22:28:22] Oh, and elevate the banter in our channel to a family friendly level [22:28:30] so that there is 3 [22:28:42] duanedesign, what do you mean by banter? [22:28:51] overall conversation [22:29:2] quality control, my friend :) you're more than welcome. [22:29:5] mt [22:29:16] we should use the other channel we have duanedesign - - cafe [22:29:42] forestpiskie: good idea [22:29:53] o/ [22:29:56] I really am in favour of getting ride of -help since people normally join this channel for help any way [22:29:57] duanedesign, cafe? [22:30:14] drubin: I agree (but are we off-topic now? maybe this should wait?) [22:30:17] +1 drubin [22:30:17] Well, +1 on the roadmap from me :) [22:30:18] o/ [22:30:22] drubin 1+ [22:30:32] yvan300: ubuntu-beginners-cafe [22:30:34] pleia2: I thought it would be part of the road map of things to change/do [22:30:50] I suggest we identify people interested in writing a roadmap and have them meet at another time or discuss on wiki / email format [22:30:57] bodhi_zazen: +1 [22:30:59] pleia2: But if it is too off topic it can be moved to another section. [22:31:0] count me in on that of course =) [22:31:4] My only concern/question is how we decide on Objectives [22:31:10] bodhi_zazen: I like [22:31:17] bodhi_zazen: count me in [22:31:20] I think - 1 at a time duanedesign [22:31:23] drubin: I think that the channel structure is still an IRC team group..maybe the irc group can meet with the roadmap group when those paths cross [22:31:37] I would say our objective are : [22:31:40] duanedesign: I think that is a huge concern I can almost never attend meetings but I would still like a vote in things [22:31:41] 1. Help on fourms [22:31:48] possibly use launchpads voting system? [22:31:53] 2. introduce new users to Ubuntu [22:32:20] bodhi_zazen: roadmap objectives are more solid things [22:32:25] 3. Encourage new users to become more involved in the greater Ubuntu community =) [22:32:40] +1 pleia2 [22:32:41] At least that is where we should start [22:32:47] like "in the lucid cycle, we will introduce 50 new people to ubuntu" [22:32:49] I agree we need to explain what/who we are going to help on the forums/launchpad/wiki/irc [22:32:51] bodhi_zazen: I like that. Coming up with Success Criteria for those will help a lot I think in improving our productivity in those areaas [22:33:1] bodhi_zazen, what you're listing seems to be more of a Mission Statement than a roadmap [22:33:11] swoody: yeah [22:33:16] pleia2: I disagree to a point on that [22:33:53] we are not here to do that - we are the team that cares for new people - they are already here and trying [22:34:0] One suggestion I think Jono made was to create a wiki page to FLUSH out ideas for objectives [22:34:8] forestpiskie: it was a poor example [22:34:10] roadmaps are all well and good ... [22:34:12] +1 duanedesign [22:34:28] <_marx_> flush or flesh [22:34:36] +1 this is not something that should be looked at over one meeting [22:34:44] i think we have to do that and then vote for 3 o 4 roadmaps [22:35:0] flush I would say [22:35:2] forestpiskie: an "objective" is something that should be done during a release cycle, so something to complete in 6 months [22:35:3] create a wiki i mean [22:35:4] PabloRubianes: what is 3 or 4 roadmaps? [22:35:4] i agree with pleia2 ... if you want progress, then you need to set finite, reachable goals that can be checked off when completed...tangible objectives. [22:35:21] now what those "tangible objectives" would be, that's for us to come up with and decide. [22:35:25] drubin 3 o 4 objetives... [22:35:26] at least going by the structure in Jono's docs, which I believe we are basing this all off of [22:35:41] dvz-: Simple, reachable goals is key... if you have to many things get daunting and people stop working [22:35:49] drubin: +1 [22:35:51] we can always re-asses what we have done. [22:35:57] true one benefit of the roadmaps is 'Feeling of Success' [22:36:5] lets call it Agile beginning(tm) [22:36:13] so we can feel like we are moving forward [22:36:19] accomplishing things [22:36:22] pleia2: why are we bound by whatever cycle ubuntu chooses - noobs are always - daily - they don;t appear once every 6 months [22:36:29] duanedesign: Yes. that is how Agile devlopment works [22:36:36] forestpiskie: this is what we are basing this discussion on: http://www.jonobacon.org/2009/11/10/creating-a-roadmap-for-more-successful-teams/ [22:36:40] forestpiskie: i think she was just giving that as an idea [22:36:43] OK, I suggest we start with a wiki page then =) [22:36:44] an example [22:36:51] small simple goals that are re-evaluated every 2 weeks (we can make this longer though) [22:36:57] bodhi_zazen: i agree [22:36:58] *I'm* not doing it, I'm explaining the idea :) [22:37:7] pleia2: I know - but still ... [22:37:11] :) [22:37:20] shooting the messenger, I see! :P [22:37:33] but we have to put a deadline to decide what to do... [22:37:33] lol [22:37:36] watch out i hear pleia2 is good with a gun [22:37:53] ha ha ha [22:38:22] I will create a wiki page and we can put up some objectives [22:38:29] duanedesign: great! [22:38:36] so can we say that the roadmap needs more talk then :) [22:38:42] Any further discussion on roadmaps ? [22:38:48] that will do the first one :) [22:39:2] bodhi_zazen: Just a final point of who is going to create them for the minutes. [22:39:20] bodhi_zazen: It is very important to link tasks to people so they and others know who is doing what. [22:39:26] duanedesign: will create a wiki page, and people can add suggestions [22:39:31] +1 [22:39:36] forestpiskie: noobs are daily and not on ubuntu's cycle sure...but if we, as the ubuntu community, don't bring fresh users in, than we're going off the cycle of relying on other people to "bring fresh users in" it sounds like ultimately, if we have a goal of bringing 50 new people to use ubuntu, then we are charged with expanding ourselves , in personal lives and in computer life to expand the knowledge of ... [22:39:40] we can discuss them at any time either on mailing list or in this channel [22:39:42] ... ubuntu to others. [22:39:45] then perhaps we vote on the ones we want to adopt at next meeting [22:39:55] approval of roadmap next meeting ? One month ? [22:39:57] or the mailing list [22:40:11] bodhi_zazen: yeah we should do it quicker [22:40:12] bodhi_zazen: You just need some one that is going to drive it. Not every one involved [22:40:27] each objective will have a driver [22:40:32] Anyone want to volunteer to drive ? [22:40:51] or are you volunteering drubin ? [22:40:53] =) [22:40:56] i will [22:41:7] Anyone else ? [22:41:15] duanedesign: have a driver to get the whole thing started, but each objective will needs its own [22:41:21] going once ... [22:41:30] going twice ... [22:41:39] duanedesign: FTW =) [22:41:42] FFEMTcJ: ok, i was a little fuzzy on what i was exactly volunteering for [22:41:46] :) [22:41:48] lol [22:42:6] I can help drubin [22:42:7] thank you duanedesign , I will help you later as well =) [22:42:11] I think driving getting the project going.. the 'roadmap' for roadmaps if you will [22:42:21] any other comments on roadmap ? [22:42:33] notices we have other agenda items [22:42:34] if you have not look over the roadmap materials i sent out on the mailing list [22:42:45] duanedesign: if you need help, i'll help ye out. [22:43:9] duanedesign: I was on the wring list :( [22:43:21] == Next topic: Ubuntu User Days [22:43:27] pleia2: =) [22:43:41] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDaysTeam [22:43:54] Sorry for being late. [22:43:57] at UDS the idea was tossed around to create additional days outside of Ubuntu Open Week throughout the release cycle for training [22:44:13] rises [22:44:19] I will help with partitions and the like pleia2 [22:44:23] rather that individual classes like the Classroom project promotes, we'd have full UserDays (which started out being called "Beginner Days" [22:44:38] forestpiskie: great :) [22:44:54] I mostly wanted to bring it up at a meeting to see if the Beginners Team wanted to formally get behind helping out [22:44:57] :) [22:44:58] bodhi_zazen: Nope sorry I not sure I will be able to do it [22:45:10] forestpiskie: can you add your name to the page if you havent? [22:45:23] FFEMTcJ: what page? [22:45:30] ^^ that one [22:45:39] <_marx_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDaysTeam [22:45:42] there is a "possible instructors" section at the bottom [22:45:49] i think the educational/Informative IRC sessions are awesome [22:46:1] I will help as time allows, I like IRC sessions =) [22:46:9] unfortunately I have been unable to get ahold of Saj0577 [22:46:15] I can not commit without seeing the time schedule [22:46:18] no replies on IRC or to email (he's the education focus group leader) [22:46:23] bodhi_zazen: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays [22:46:30] shooing for Jan 16th or 23rd [22:46:33] I would also like to see a time schedule. I may help out. [22:46:46] pleia2: I will add myself to the page as a possible [22:46:51] forestpiskie: thanks! :) [22:46:53] Thanks forestpiskie [22:47:22] thanks pleia2 , weekends are bad for me, at least at those times [22:47:36] We do have quite a good list of courses to offer... just need people to instruct [22:47:47] and I can do euro times- not always good for some .... [22:47:47] bodhi_zazen: the times are flexible, we decided upon saturday because all open week, dev week, etc are on weekdays [22:48:20] If it's on the weekends, I can ttend. [22:48:45] I understand pleia2 , perhaps I can add my name and availability on the first page ? [22:48:54] is there still a meeting going on? [22:49:0] bodhi_zazen: sure :) [22:49:8] Raidsong: yes [22:49:14] Weekends was one of the recomendations at UDS to allow people who work during the week to attend.. since they are geared towards new(er) users [22:49:31] this I understand FFEMTcJ [22:49:41] pleia2: my impression is that there would be I ma guessing 2-3 people here who would run an IRC class [22:50:8] bodhi_zazen: great :) [22:50:15] I don't think we need a vote then or anything [22:50:22] good [22:50:31] any other comments, or shall we move to the next topic ? [22:50:34] better to havepeople just do it imho [22:50:36] pleia2, Would it be amendable for me to add myself to the "Possible Instructors" list? [22:50:41] Hellow: go for it :) [22:50:42] move on bodhi_zazen [22:50:54] === Topic : Public channel logging === [22:51:0] -1 [22:51:2] pleia2: you are up =) [22:51:4] -1 [22:51:7] well, I'm a big 'ole troublemaker for this topic :) [22:51:8] Anyone who is interested can.. also, pleia2 my suggestion would be for them to put what they are interested in leading [22:51:14] -1 [22:51:17] I know this is a hot topic , please keep the conversation civil [22:51:35] I said my bit [22:51:35] the reason this came up is due to a distructuve user on IRC who had been involved with -beginners [22:51:38] -1 [22:51:45] but I do think even with out the logging we need to tone down some of the conversations that go on in here [22:51:48] Personally I assume all conversations on all channels are logged all the time =) [22:51:57] while handling this, the -ops asked if there were public logs of this channel, I discovered there weren't, and dropped a note to the team about it [22:51:58] -1 [22:52:15] o/ [22:52:20] o/ [22:52:21] logging is one of those things that's offered for productive, mature ubuntu teams [22:52:29] I think public logging of help would be beneficial to other users [22:52:35] o/ [22:52:45] o/ [22:52:50] o/ [22:52:54] then I would say that this channel should go to help and we chat in the cafe [22:53:0] forestpiskie: +1 [22:53:19] forestpiskie: where would you stand on logging if that were the case? [22:53:23] pleia2: we come here to chill out not to be logged [22:53:26] <_marx_> add directions to channel topic [22:53:36] forestpiskie: i agree...either create a -team channel for the team to have their meetings, -cafe for random banter, and keep this channel as a help channel. [22:53:38] then I would chat in cafe and be logged here in help [22:53:40] I agree that currently this channel is not really log-worthy :) [22:53:49] forestpiskie: +1 [22:53:51] scratch out "either" [22:53:53] +1 pleia2 [22:53:55] dvz-, That's redundant, there's #ubuntu-beginners-help. [22:54:13] fwiw - "cafe" is kinda of a forums convention, in irc the social channels tend to be called "offtopic" [22:54:16] Hellow: get rid of help and change it to here...since people tend to go here before they go to help [22:54:23] then what is the point - I've no issue with the help channel being logged - but HERE is our little home [22:54:32] We have too many channels as a team as it is [22:54:34] this team is a mix of forums and irc, so I could see it going either way, but IRC people will be more used to the "offtopic" convention [22:54:39] +1 bodhi_zazen [22:54:43] bodhi_zazen: I think the idea is getting rid of -help [22:54:43] I would agree with making this channel the 'help' channel, and creating a 'cafe' or OT style channel for team banter [22:54:43] big -1 to another channel from me =) [22:54:46] But, there really isnt a need to log. I don't want the things that I say on IRC posted online, indexed by google, and who knows reading it. [22:55:1] +1 swoody [22:55:8] so then I would -1 logging this channel and force help elewhere [22:55:21] May I ask a few questions of people here ? [22:55:34] pleia2: no - not imo [22:55:40] bodhi_zazen: yeas [22:55:48] i think we should have at least one room that is not logged, esp. since we tend to put email addresses and other information in this channel. [22:55:55] as stated in the mailing list, this channel is our team's equivalent of ##club-ubuntu - which is not logged either afaik. [22:56:2] First, the #1 argument against logging is what, privacy ? [22:56:5] ibuclaw, It's not logged :P. [22:56:11] bodhi_zazen, Mainly, yes. [22:56:17] bodhi_zazen: privacy and "our banter is not useful anyway" [22:56:20] Hellow: reason for -help is we don't allow help in here. and most users come here first and we kick them out [22:56:28] drubin: yeah, I don't like that [22:56:34] #2 people wanting to be "relaxed" ? [22:56:34] That's the same argument used when public logging was brought up for ##club-ubuntu. [22:56:49] bodhi_zazen: that point is moot since well I could publish my logs from the last year and well they would be public. [22:56:58] drubin: i think WE should be the ones to be inconvenienced in having to "switch channels" not the new users seeking help. [22:57:0] in general irc is public and that is the way it is. [22:57:8] pleia2: I'm sorry but that does not wash - go to ubunt+1 and ask for jaunty help [22:57:11] bodhi_zazen: i somewhat jest when I say I would be against logging so that my ignorance wouldn't be that easy to "dig up" [22:57:16] dvz-: Been trying to say that for years [22:57:24] dvz-: yeah [22:57:30] we are a chat channel - the help channel is -help [22:57:40] drubin, But most of the Internet's users don't use IRC. I don't want random people reading my IRC conversations through a web browser. [22:57:56] OK [22:57:57] do random people care? [22:58:2] forestpiskie: in the mind of users, #ubuntu is the main channel, not #ubuntu+1 (you need to know about +1) - here it's the opposite, people assume #ubuntu-beginners is the default beginners channel, and have to be told about -help [22:58:5] Arguements for logging ? [22:58:20] +1 pleia2 [22:58:23] forestpiskie: the name is misleading...ubuntu-beginners...people think it's a channel for beginners at ubuntu...they dont' expect to join then have their questions kicked out and redirected to ANOTHER channel. [22:58:27] assumes everything she ever says on IRC is logged anyway, has no privacy issues [22:58:33] seidos, Fairly extremely, your conversations on IRC could be used to build up a information database on you if someone wanted to come after you for something. [22:58:34] pleia2: then we nned a channel we can chat in [22:58:44] I think it's a pretty good indication that something needs to change when we have to inform people of #u-b-h [22:58:49] But, again, that's extreme. [22:58:53] Hellow: Come one if random people are reading your irc well I think you prolly shouldn't be in irc and need body guards [22:59:4] come after me for helping ubuntu beginners? [22:59:4] dvz-: that has been the way since I was here ... [22:59:4] that's messed up [22:59:10] I feel this channel would be better suited as the 'help' channel [22:59:15] hence #ubuntu-beginners-team ...as the name indicates...-team is like -dev, -irc, -security...it's a set that we identify... [22:59:23] dvz-, in a way this channel is somewhat of a help channel ... just not a "I have an issue with xyz" sort. [22:59:42] ibuclaw: was hat the name before we had to change it? [22:59:45] Suggestion: A sort of "Members-only" channel? I don't know how that would work out, but heh. [22:59:48] pleia2: That is what I said on the mailing list. If I was to bymistake do cp ~/.irssi/logs/ /srv/www/ well all logs would be public any way [22:59:55] more of a "I'm looking to contribute to Ubuntu, but don't know where to start" [22:59:56] and #ubuntu-beginners should be the default directory..offering help...and other stuff...if users need to ask questions about dev, then they can be directed to -dev, etc. [22:59:58] drubin: *nod* [23:0:14] I think we should offer help in this channel as needed [23:0:26] there seem to be 2 issues. What is our IRC structure and which channels do we log [23:0:29] if it is detailed, extended , focused help, move to -help [23:0:35] lets not get too strict =) [23:0:42] so why the topic then bodhi_zazen ? either it is here or it is there? [23:0:47] I am ok with banter being in this channel as well just feel it needs to be appropriate. [23:1:3] and with the banter comes the need to be unlogged [23:1:4] bodhi_zazen, not to forget that -help has always been preferred as it is generally quieter. [23:1:6] I think it would be a good idea to have a separate channel for random discussions that's not the team's primary channel. [23:1:6] i think this is also something that the irc team can go more into depth on when we meet in the next meeting. [23:1:8] Meeting time? [23:1:9] +1 drubin, we need to maintain a family-friendly channel here [23:1:14] That's unlogged, too. [23:1:25] if this were a business, i think there would be a separate channel for interaction with customers, and another for interacting with employees [23:1:25] dvz-: +1 [23:1:30] bodhi_zazen: personally I feel *help* is the main focus of the team and we shouldn't move users out so we can chitchat but rather we should move out [23:1:30] and then we can come up with a proposed plan/solution and bring it back to the team at the next meeting. [23:1:32] LeAstrale: now :) [23:1:42] +1 drubin [23:1:42] o.O [23:1:45] noise in this channel (and #ubuntu suffers from it too) does not help in giving support. [23:1:47] beginners are probably not ready for things that are said in this channel [23:1:49] but, to me it depends [23:1:52] drubin: then a cafe [23:1:58] a "simple" problem can be answered here [23:1:59] and if the team has issues with reading support stuff they they proberally shouldn't be on the team (so that is none of you guys right... :) [23:2:5] heck, i barely am :) [23:2:10] forestpiskie: I am ok with a cafe [23:2:11] :) drubin [23:2:16] a more complex problem that takes detailed explinations is best moved to -help [23:2:19]