hi to all, who is here for this special meeting ? JanC , mongolito404 ? I'm here hello JanC H hi hello mongolito404 , pvandewijngaerd iemand anders voor de meeting ? perhaps mark will come ... let's start : topic today is about adding a webpage containing links to commercial companies and organizations whose activities are related to Ubuntu ? looksaus komt binnen 10 min on-line looksaus = mark vdb ☺ (for those who don't understand dutch: mark just called me to say he will come online in 10 minutes) * |mantas| (~Linux@ip-62-235-178-120.dsl.scarlet.be) a rejoint #ubuntu-be ok, ok, we wait for him ... : and then I propose in a few minutes a first round about the idea : is it or not a good idea ? please your reaction, but no detail, and after that we will follow the agenda as detailled in my email I guess Mark's minutes are longer than mine :D idd * markvandenborre (~mark@ubuntu/member/markvandenborre) a rejoint #ubuntu-be hi hi sorry I'm late, hope JanC announced this properly he did hi, ok from jan any log/summary I can skim through I propose a first round about the idea : is it or not a good idea ? please your reaction, but no detail, and after that we will follow the agenda as detailled in my email ? markvandenborre: we waited for you, you didn't miss anything oh, great, thx who start the round ? I think the idea is great imho, it's a great idea. We have talked about a "entreprise" page when we build the first site but nothing was never done but we should keep it as _simple_ as possible I also think the idea is great pieter ? pvandewyngaerd: ? pvandewyngaerd : what do you think about it ? i propose to follow the agenda : item 1. who is concerned ? commercial companies, organization, non-benefit organizations with activities related to ubuntu ? more details ? what do you think ? what do i think about what ? did you read the mail about this meeting ? http://ubuntu-be.3354669.n2.nabble.com/Special-IRC-meeting-on-15-07-at-21-00-hr-tp5288199.html we are a meeting point for _all_ of them, but commercial offerings need their separate exhibition space, I'd say notwithstandig the added value of adding them to a "support points map" thing I think all commercial offers of products & services that are not a one-off event (whether offered by for-profit or non-profit companies/institutions) should go on that page +1 +1 The request initating this discussion as from a commercial entity. I think we should focus on commercial entity. We can deal with it later if non-commercial entities want to be present on ubuntu-be.org ok anything else before item 2. conditions ? nop many commercial products & services are offered by a non-profit, so the status of the legal entity shouldn't count IMO center it around the service offered instead of the org, and you're covered think about Rock Werchter, you can't call that a non-commercial event, while legally it's organized by a vzw right, so let's focus on commercial products & services ok, about conditions ? i noted the following ... - location in Belgium, ... and abroad based companies with activities in Belgium ? .... - activity : service related to Ubuntu (hardware, maintenance, promotion, education, ... what else ?) ... - ubuntu related activity must be clearly mentioned on website and presentation of the company ... and --language : at least 1 national language NL/FR/DE and/or EN (?)--language : at least 1 national language NL/FR/DE and/or EN (?) your opinion and addition ? about location ? at least one of those 4 languages sounds useful, if we want to check they follow our rules ;) we can only be expected to check in NL/FR/EN/DE AR/TR/KU are a bit hard :) For me the conditions are availability in Belgium and clear and obvious relation to Ubuntu well, I helped solve a conflict in a Hebrew language IRC channel once (long live on-line translation tools) language is not a condition but practically we can't validate the two conditions if en/fr/nl are not used I can read de too, and so do some others ok, seems pretty clear to me I also like Jan Bongaerts's proposition for direct link to web page presenting the Ubuntu related product or service +1 we need a static link for such a page they can make it a redirect on their site too e.g. http://company.be/ubuntu always redirects to the right page but we certainly shouldn't have to change the link all the time perfect suggestion jan b. is certainly good Should we care about their URL schema ? We need/want a permanent URL for a page to the service or product. this is straightforward and easy to check, +1 other conditions ? about the location... I'd say no because that makes things more complicated than necessary a link on their site to our main site ? What do you mean ? I can see the point for companies outside Belgium that have a large part of their business in .be, but how to check that markvandenborre: ^ JanC: if they make the effort If it's a product, it has to be shippable to Belgium and this has be be clear on their website If it's a service, a Belgian contact address should be provided mongolito404: I meant no more conditions than just easily verifiable web presence for their Ubuntu related commercial offering Both are easy the check. as long as it's available in .be then? mongolito404: why not accept foreign service offering available for .be from an outside address? The criteria being that if the person checking the information can't find a valid answer easily, then the information is not clear for the average user and the conditions are not met if they make the effort, it's ok +1k mongolito404: why not give the responsibility to the person that actually checks (to check if the service clearly is available in Belgium) ok then we need a "complaints desk" ? err, no? we're providing a service at our discretion ah, you mean, the person of ubuntu-be who adds it yes I thought you meant a visitor if there's any doubt, kick it to the mailing list because we can't really check that (I'm not going to order something just to be sure) yes, if there is any doubt, use the mailing list and IRC meeting to solve the issue makes sense, and also list those contact points for visitors with complaints? err, no this is a "no complaints" service _we_ decide if they want to find the list, they can I mean, if somebody follows a link, but the company doesn't offer what they promise(d) (anymore) ? that's why there should be periodic renewals I still want a way to hear about that http://ubuntu-be.org/en/contact there's enough means to contact us already I'd say no separate channel until it is proven necessary that's okay, we just have to list it somewhere on that page IMO +1 for no separate channel until it is proven necessary renewal terms? 1 year? 2 years? I wasn't talking about a separate channel, just listing where to complain ☺ I'd say no more than 1 year after conditions, and before offer and procedures a few words about item 3. update ? periodicity ? ... We can have footer with a sentence inviting visitor to contact us to add information and correct mistake. And "contact us" is a link to the contact us page ok to me 1 year a good term for everybody? - the agreement for the link should be limited in time - aim : to avoid dead links and declining interest for Ubuntu .. mongolito404: that would work, only I would put it on top ;) imho, 1 year is a max ok, perfect - renewal will be accepted after a simple request for. JanC: Not on top, the important information on the page is the list, it should comes first jean7491: we can also double check existing links proactively, and send them a "renewed" mail and - reminder mail has to be sent before expiration (by who?) might take less time mongolito404: I don't think 2 or 3 lines on top of a (hopefully) long list would hurt means we need an email address for these people JanC: I do and preferably a phone number works faster for double checking I once did a 3 hour Sunday afternoon support points cleanup by phone together with François Cauwe quite an efficient way to get things done before procedures , item 4. details of the offer - content of the page “links” ? our offer should include - place for a logo (which size?) - name of the company – location - link (see remark later) - short description of the activity (max. 3 lines) – language(s) – eventually location on map (if needed ?) .. visible: a link, a logo maybe, or lacking that, a homepage thumbnail? hidden: email, phone number for renewal/verification identification includes phone nr and email addres +1 hm, sorry, I'll be packing and as jan said we should stipulate that the link goes directly to the company's page where they advertise Ubuntu and open source product, or hardware withUbuntu or open source software. It should not go to a home page full of other stuff and you have to struggle to find the open source product. visible on the list: company name, location (town, city, postcode?), short description of what they offer (related to ubuntu), link I'll skim whatever is written here, but I really need to pack; if you need my opinion, just yell my name ok thx Companies in alphabetical order, ... and mention no responsibility for ubuntu-be about information published on this page +1 for the information, +1 for the direct link and +1 for alphabetical order +1 for no responsibility +1 about jean7491's last line ☺ anything else about the offer ? kiss (keep it simple stupid) if nothing else, item 5. reciprocity : what can we ask ? nothing mention of a link to ubuntu-be on companies web sites ... nothing we ask nothing, se we are not liable just suggest and hope for the best well, we can suggest 1) a link back & 2) other things minimum should be a link to ubuntu-be The goal is for us to promote Ubuntu/FOSS product/service and the organisation selling them. by "other things", I mean they can give away stuff via our site or ML or whatever ;) we also only suggest a gift when handing out CDs So I say we requires nothing, suggest linking to ubuntu-be.org and suggest taking action in/for the community (sponsoring, etc.) and make it clear we really appreciate if they do what we suggest ;) anything else ? on this item ? item 6. procedure application and agreement ? We need a procedure and rules that can be published and used to judge (yes/not) a request and to eventually motivate a refusal. ... Who will agreed to the request for inclusion in the “Links” page ? and later check if all is ok, .... with possibility to cancel the agreement if conditions/rules are not respected ... jean7491: there is no agreement it's a one sided offering on our behalf markvandenborre: +1 request can be done in any suitable way, preferably by the mean of the mailing list. change to the page have to be announced on the mailing list too agreement = our decision to include the link we can also actively collect companies if we wish to markvandenborre: we can all do that on a personal basis here an example of application rules in 4 points ... and ask others to help 1. Send an application to ??? Ubuntu-be, including your identification, localisation, service/activity related tu Ubuntu and demonstrate your engagement towards Ubuntu promotion. ... 2. When your application is accepted, you will be informed and you will be asked for information to be published (name and identification, localisation, link to your website, short description of the activity (max. 3 lines), language(s). ... 3. When approved, your contribution will be published on the webpage Links of Ubuntu-be for an initial period of 12 months. ... 4. Yearly, renewal of your engagement towards Ubuntu will have to be sent to ??? Ubuntu-be for extension of the publication period for another 12 months. Application can be send to any ubuntu-be member. If the member has the ability/permission to edit the page, he/she can do it after cheking the fact. Otherwise, I can forward the request to the ML I think information in 2. should be given in 1. (how to decide otherwise?) one clear channel to get it to us application should be address to an email address and not mailing list and one clear procedure point 2 is about what will be published , the application point 1 can be more complete jean7491: so point 2 should be part of point 1 already anyway? of course thinsg can be changed over discussions as first step we should have an email addres where application can be sent to, then a few people looking the mail and deciding about ubuntu-be position ... candidats need 1 point of contact and not a mailing list +1 1 PoC is also a SPoF point of contact should be 1 email addres and we can internally discuss ... 1 PoC is also a SPoF ? what do you mean ? single point of failure meaning that if the PoC fails, the whole system fail mongolito404: AFAIK we can't really run our own (receiving) mailserver on the new VPS, right? I think we can the poc i mean is 1 email addres, not 1 name +1 easiest scenario might be gafyd gafyd ? but I don't know if that is acceptable from a FOSS point of view we could use a ticket system like rt or OTRS... google apps for your domain I have no Google account... :P 1 emailaddres = contact.ubuntu-be@uptoyoutochoosewhere.xxx ... with access to people active in ubuntu-be jean7491: you already registered an .xxx domain before anybody else could? :P (just joking) ha ha ! read .xyz jean7491: we need more than 1 address, we don't want 3 people to answer 3 different things that's what 'rt' or 'otrs' can help with or other similar systems Actually, we can use Launchpad before to answer, just look the sent items and contact other players mongolito404: what part of LP do you mean? launchpad +1 Bugs only thing would be private information is there any private info to be processed? mongolito404: isn't that a bit too technical for some companies? private ?which part of the process should be private ? mongolito404: don't think so A company contact a member of Ubuntu-be, the member open a bug or the company open the bug itself I really rhink we shoud learn to use LP bugs to track task and request We should do these thing in the open There is no need for secrecy well, I can see some private chat might be useful sometimes (e.g. referring to clients who don't want to be in public) If private/sensible information should be provided, it can be done out of band by mail but it could just be kept out of LP exactly as already said kiss : emailaddres = contact.ubuntu-be@gmail.com or something else than gmail So a request is done though a bug on LP, public/normal conversation and update on processing are done through comment private conversation are done privately using whatever medium is suitable (use snail mail if you want) is it so difficult to start 1 simple email addres for companies and people outside ubuntu-be ?? as contact for companies and people outside u-be well, currently the mailserver on ubuntu-be.org isn't reachable from the internet (I assumed it was an FSFE hosting restriction) otherwise we could have whatever@ubuntu-be.org JanC: it is, but maybe the port can be opened if needed * guydup (~guydup@d51530769.static.telenet.be) a rejoint #ubuntu-be mongolito404: it would need that we get a unique IP address (like I have on my own VPS) or soem sort of mail forwarding service from FSFE can you look for a solution for an email addres ? and we continue with last item implementation ? yes, I think a solution for the email address is psossible This is the second need for custom @ubuntu-be.org (see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-belgium/+bug/399194) step 1. redaction of the rules, inclusive the renewal procedure, for example in the wiki, based on what we discussed today ... is someone volunteer to write it ? mongolito404: I guess we need to talk to some FSFE admins one of these days... ;) * live-linux est parti (Remote host closed the connection) volunteer to write the rules or to contribute to the work ? i can start the work, but need more contribution from ... you ! * guydup est parti (Quit: Java user signed off) I can proof-read when rules and procedures are ok, step 2. publication of the information through the mailing list and preparation of the website page we can all proof-read & discuss when it gets send to the ML I will take care of the webste page sent as a draft i'd like to prepare the draft with your comments before going to the ml ... because there are things like who will take part to the decision that we have to decide out of the ml then step 3. contact with the companies, first answer to Silent computers, and then Linux-Service, Alupcs, ..., and others, firstly via mailing list and personal contacts last 4. Control later is needed , for example still interest for and engagement to Ubuntu ? Announce on the mailing will probably attract some suggstions for 3. for control, don't think we need a defined control procedure. It should be clear that if at anytime, the conditions are not meet, the link can be removed without notice to avoid unecessary work on our side (contact, etc.) But the polite thing to do is to send a notice to the company. +1 , But no "grace period" during which the company is given time to reply and/or fix the issue. Because it means to much work for us. (any work is too much, we all want thing without effort) ok, before to conclude : 2 unsolved questions .... 1. the email addres : i suppose not to complicate to solve the problem ... 2. who decide ? ... who decide what ? sorry, off to bed early flight tomorrow * markvandenborre (~mark@ubuntu/member/markvandenborre) a quitté #ubuntu-be ("Leaving.") de-facto we are already 4 concerned in an unformal "decision-group" to accept the applications you mean who decide to accept an application ? U suggest whoever is available and willing to take care of the application takes the responsability If an acceptation is doubtful, it can be discussed on the ML or during an IRC meeting If an accepted application is challenged, it should also be discussed on the ML or during IRC meeting rather in an irc meeting between concerned people Whatever medium suits the concerned people One thing should be clear: application, acceptation of application and challenging an accepted application is a concern for ubuntu-be. i mean concerned people = at least member of the loco team, and preferabily active in ubuntu-be If the initiating party doesn't publish it on the ML, any participating party can publish about it ? I think only active member of the LoCo will participate to the discussion seems like we might get mail solved initiating party, ...participating party ... ? people initiating party => the peopel starting the discussion, participating party => people participating to the discussion ubuntu-be is a do-it-o-cracy, people who do things decide in order to take part in the decision process, you just have to join it almost spells like idiot-crazy :D Yeah, I'm a crazy idiot ok, i understand that we can discuss it in irc, with announcement in the ml but ? i propose we stop for today, i'll write a report and start with rules and procedures if necessary we 'll have another meeting later * ttl- (~ttl@d5153A420.access.telenet.be) a rejoint #ubuntu-be if no comment, thanks for your participation ! jean7491: Thanks to you for leading this meeting and the whole stuff I think that's a good idea (been a long day for me ;) ) good night all