<> == Agenda == Topics discussed at this meeting: * UDS BugSquad related topics -- BugSquad UDS atteendes * LP Improvements for triagers -- bcurtiswx == Minutes == ## Use title4 (ie ==== ) for each section of the minutes ## Only topics discussed during the meetings should be put in the minutes. ## Status reporting is done via another channel. ==== UDS BugSquad related topics ==== TBD ==== LP Improvements for triagers ==== TBD ==== Open Discussion ==== ==== Agree on next meeting date and time ==== == Log == {{{ 17:00 thekorn hi 17:00 bcurtiswx-mini so, who runs these meetings? :P 17:00 andresmujica last time was me! * bcurtiswx-mini sits down then 17:01 andresmujica so if anyone steps up, i can try it for the second time 17:01 BUGabundo hey everyone. * BUGabundo waves 17:01 andresmujica o/ 17:01 bdmurray Hi 17:01 bcurtiswx-mini \o/ whats that supposed to be 17:01 andresmujica ok, let's start this 17:01 BUGabundo 1st time on this meeting so be gentle. thanks 17:01 andresmujica (i supposed me waving :) 17:01 bcurtiswx-mini i got yelled at when i wasn't here last time :P 17:01 andresmujica #startmeeting * charlie-tca waves 17:01 pedro_ heya 17:02 pace_t_zulu o/ 17:02 andresmujica holly gosh, shouldn't the bot respond to startmeeting? 17:02 bcurtiswx-mini idk, didn't for the server meeting 17:02 bcurtiswx-mini 17:02 pace_t_zulu mootbot is MIA 17:02 andresmujica ok. 17:03 charlie-tca it should, but maybe it is broke again 17:03 andresmujica ok, np. So this is our second meeting, and the proposed topic is at 17:03 andresmujica https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting 17:03 andresmujica and the last minutes from the previous meeting are at 17:03 andresmujica https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting/Minutes/2009-12-05 17:04 andresmujica first my apologies for emailing too late the reminder to the ML.. it didn{ t make it into the the newsletter, but anyway we're here so let's start === jussi01 is now known as jussio1 === jussio1 is now known as Android 17:05 andresmujica [TOPIC] UDS BugSquad related topics -- BugSquad UDS atteendes === Android is now known as Tuhina 17:06 andresmujica anyone of the attendes want to share some of the highlits from UDS related to bugsquad? === Tuhina is now known as jussi01 * bcurtiswx-mini pokes maco 17:07 bcurtiswx-mini well i know maco went to UDS.. but i think shes @ work 17:08 BUGabundo or school 17:08 BUGabundo anyone else? 17:08 bdmurray There were quite a few things I found interesting 17:09 bdmurray making the greasemonkey triaging scripts into extensions and available in a PPA 17:09 bdmurray a Bug Squad mentoring program 17:09 bdmurray an Ubuntu Reviewers team for patches attached to bug reports 17:10 bdmurray and some discussions about how to write apport package hooks and what packages to target 17:10 bcurtiswx-mini to the Bug Squad mentoring program... i think we mentor each other in the bugs channel pretty well 17:10 bcurtiswx-mini how would a mentoring program be different? 17:11 bdmurray We talked about making it a bit more structured to make it easier for people to find a mentor and to help people are who are shy. 17:11 andresmujica bdmurray: this is the spec right? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Specs/SpecialisationWithinBugcontrol 17:12 bdmurray andresmujica: that's right 17:12 bdmurray pedro_: anything more to add on that? 17:13 bcurtiswx-mini i like the idea, i just ask a ton of questions :). how can i help build the spec up.. i can come up with a few ideas 17:13 pedro_ well what bdmurray said is mostly why we started to do the mentoring program 17:13 pedro_ that's based on the experience of previous months/years 17:14 pedro_ we clearly need a more defined and structured way to start helping new triagers who want to be involved in the bugsquad 17:14 pedro_ doing triage, participating in our activities, meetings, decisions, etc 17:14 bcurtiswx-mini agreed 17:14 bdmurray bcurtiswx-mini: we are still drafting the spec at this point in time 17:14 pedro_ the bugsquad is not just about doing triage and that's it, people need to get involved in the team as well 17:15 bcurtiswx-mini bdmurray: understood, i would love to help build this "program" up 17:15 andresmujica i' ve got a doubt about bugsquad membership, it would be open for everyone or it was decided to ask for some prereq ? 17:15 bdmurray bcurtiswx-mini: great! feel free to add any thoughts to the end of the Discussion section of the spec 17:17 pedro_ andresmujica: IIRC we agreed on having it now as a close team and the requirements for join there would be: sign the coc and read the how to triage guide 17:17 bdmurray I think we should talk about that a wee bit more, the 1st item is easy to verify the second hard. 17:18 bcurtiswx-mini similar to bug control... they e-mail the list answering pre-made questions about the triage guide ? 17:18 andresmujica yeap, maybe some questions as bug-control application 17:18 pedro_ right, maybe we could ask a few easy questions related to that guide 17:19 charlie-tca At least that would let them know the guides exist. 17:19 bdmurray I think that would add a lot overhead and might lean the other way 17:20 bdmurray verify coc is signed, approve and in approval notification send links to triaging documentation and mentoring program 17:20 bcurtiswx-mini bdmurray: ok, what about a "trial" period, like bug control 17:21 bcurtiswx-mini after 90 days ping a bug squad admin to update the membership 17:21 bdmurray sounds good to me 17:21 andresmujica and check bugs triaged in that period 17:22 bdmurray I think that'd be part of the mentoring program 17:22 andresmujica should a new member must have a mentor? 17:22 bdmurray No, I don't think so 17:23 bcurtiswx-mini so , by request, a mentor? 17:24 bdmurray If I understand correctly - new members could request a mentor yes 17:24 bdmurray But it would not be required 17:24 bcurtiswx-mini i think it may be help to have bug squad newbies build up their wiki pages and review that upon 90 days are up 17:25 bcurtiswx-mini put a couple triaged bugs in there? 17:26 charlie-tca We make them do that to join bug-control, I would think to stay in bug-squad it should not be the same. 17:26 bdmurray Reviewing the bug control applications takes a lot of time, but maybe we can make a streamlined simplified process for the Bug Squad 17:27 bdmurray charlie-tca: I agree 17:27 andresmujica the point is that bugsquad needs a lot of members that can do a good triage work, so with mentoring and some commitment to be members they can grow and get more involvement. 17:27 bdmurray Anyway, we can discuss this more in the spec / on the mailing list 17:27 andresmujica yeap. 17:27 hggdh perhaps one way is to have mentors assigned to newbies 17:28 hggdh b.g.o does something similar, at least with evo 17:28 andresmujica there were some more topics at uds that worth mentioning, kernel bug handling, Desktop Bug workflow and Symptom based bug reporting 17:29 micahg I think mentoring helped me get acclimated faster 17:30 andresmujica as the mentoring program is so new and it's a volunteer work, i believe we can let it move and it would reacht the point were new members can be assigned to a mentor.. 17:31 andresmujica if needed.. 17:31 bdmurray Right, I've some concern about the quantity of mentees versus mentors 17:32 bcurtiswx-mini ask for volunteers in the two ML's ? its going to be difficult to coordinate best times to meet too.. since were from all around the world 17:32 bcurtiswx-mini i'd recommend assigning people from the same time zones.. or close time zones 17:33 pedro_ bcurtiswx-mini: that's the idea, yes 17:33 hggdh the issue is mentoring is a voluntary action, right now. We, er, mentor by answering questions on IRC. Perhaps stress IRC presence? 17:34 andresmujica ok, as the time moves, i'd propose to discuss that remaining points in the ML, and as the spec is being drafted it surely can be greatly improved. 17:34 pace_t_zulu hggdh: +1 17:35 andresmujica about the kernel bug handling, i believe it's important to note that a bug bankrupcy was discussed, as the high volume of kernel bugs (around 5000) is really hard to manage, and is not feasible to triage them all and solved 17:36 BUGabundo 5k? 17:36 andresmujica https://wiki.ubuntu.com/specs/KernelKarmicBugHandling 17:36 micahg https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux 17:36 BUGabundo that's what the kernel team gets for prefering to have all kernel bug filed in separate 17:36 andresmujica so the kernel team is discussing what should be the best path of action... 17:37 micahg well, I"m sure that at least 20% are from old kernels if not more 17:37 andresmujica yeap, 17:38 hggdh so. What can we do about that? 17:38 micahg I would suggest getting rid of any bug not touched before hardy was released 17:38 bcurtiswx-mini kernel hug day? 17:39 micahg just mark invalid 17:39 andresmujica probably be aware of the issue and check the kernel bug policies page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KernelTeamBugPolicies 17:39 micahg in case someone has a real issue, they can reopend 17:39 bdmurray I'd rather people focus on kernel bugs coming in today, tomorrow, the next day, rather than the old crufty stuff 17:39 charlie-tca micahg: what would you do with dapper, which is still supported on servers for two years? 17:40 pedro_ bcurtiswx-mini: the team is organizing kernel hug days almost every Tuesday since a few weeks ago: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/BugDay 17:40 micahg charlie-tca: it doesn't even show up in the versions provided 17:40 pedro_ in fact there's one today 17:40 charlie-tca That makes it more wrong, then 17:40 bcurtiswx-mini pedro_: maybe have them announced on the bug squad list? 17:41 andresmujica http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-bugday/20090609.html 17:41 bdmurray charlie-tca: the dapper bugs are reported about linux-source-2.6.15 17:41 ogasawara unless a dapper bug is an omg kittens are dieing or a security fix it's likely Won't Fix 17:42 charlie-tca bdmurray: my point was you can't just invalid a bug because it is before hardy. It could be valid against dapper 17:42 ogasawara and the kernel bug day announcement was sent to ubuntu-qa, ubuntu-bugcontrol, kernel-team, and ubuntu-bugsquad 17:42 hggdh ogasawara, then we *could* close these as wont fix, correct? 17:42 ogasawara hggdh: in my opinion, yes 17:43 hggdh OK. Anyone against? 17:43 charlie-tca thanks for clearing that, ogasawara 17:43 bdmurray Again I think closing old bugs is less useful than triaging new bugs 17:43 andresmujica some magic script can do it instead of us.. 17:43 ogasawara as for closing old stale kernel bugs, I've got some scripts I'm going to run to clear them out 17:43 hggdh bdmurray, I agree, but there's still the reporter needing some sort of ACK 17:44 BUGabundo hggdh: just one Q: how about those that remain past the old release, and are not identified as such ? 17:44 micahg bdmurray: I agree also, but it can be mentally disheartening to see such a large number of bugs in a package and never seem to make decent headway 17:44 hggdh BUGabundo, this is actually a question of quantity vs quality. There is only so much we can do 17:45 BUGabundo I know 17:45 bdmurray True but it'd be better for the release as a whole if we worked with the "live" bug reports and work on getting those fixed 17:45 hggdh and a nicely written automagic script can tell the reporter to reopen if needed 17:46 BUGabundo I guess the closing message could/will ask the subscribers to reopen if they persist 17:46 micahg indeed bdmurray, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that 17:46 hggdh +1. I understand ogasawara will run his magic on the old bugs 17:47 micahg btw, I just ran a search for dapper in the linux package and came up with 144 bugs 17:47 hggdh ogasawara, sorry. *her* magic. 17:48 ogasawara hggdh: :) 17:48 ogasawara for those interested in helping triage, I recently updated the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KernelTeamBugPolicies 17:49 micahg OT - Just got a compliment on the apport-collect command from a user 17:49 ogasawara note the added importance of having bugs test with the mainline kernel build as well 17:49 bcurtiswx-mini ogasawara: is that in the "debugging proceedures" page? 17:49 ogasawara bcurtiswx-mini: I'll have to check. if not I'll add it. 17:49 bdmurray The DebuggingProcedures page could use some reorganizing 17:50 bcurtiswx-mini yeah, and additions 17:50 bdmurray bcurtiswx-mini: additions as in links to existing pages or new pages added? 17:51 andresmujica another interesting discussion held at UDS was the Symptom Based Bug Reporting https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Karmic/SymptomBasedBugReporting, that would be an extension to apport hooks that would try to get some common information about the issue by asking questions to the reporter... mr pitti is working on that ... 17:51 bdmurray andresmujica: he blogged about it today or yesterday 17:52 bcurtiswx-mini bdmurray: well, idk of all the wiki pages we have on debugging this and that. but the list seems small from the different amount of packages we have.. so if i don't find a debugging page, i resort to finding basic triage info.. and i am afraid its not enough for devs and to mark as triaged 17:52 bdmurray oh, that was the interactive hook 17:53 andresmujica ohh, that's great!! http://martinpitt.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/interrogation-with-apport-hooks-qt-developer-needed/ 17:54 andresmujica so, we've got 5 more minutes... 17:55 bcurtiswx-mini yay for going to the 2nd discussion topic :P, to which i have no info for anyways 17:55 andresmujica LP Improvements for triagers -- bcurtiswx 17:55 andresmujica hehe 17:56 bcurtiswx-mini that was more of a question, than a "i know this" thing 17:56 bdmurray bcurtiswx-mini: well, we did have a meeting with the launchpad bugs team at UDS 17:56 andresmujica there were some talks about it at UDS... duplicate bug handling, related bugs, what else? 17:56 bdmurray some of the things we talked about were negated tag searching, bug nominations 17:56 bcurtiswx-mini bdmurray: about that greasemonkey made FF extension.. sounds like a great idea 17:57 bdmurray searching for bugs with bzr branches, displaying patches in bug listings 17:57 bcurtiswx-mini what about running apport collect on all bugs reported against jaunty and karmic when reporters use the launchpad page to report 17:58 bcurtiswx-mini is that possible? 17:58 hggdh you mean forcing code on the local machine? 17:58 bdmurray Instead we are trying to get people to just report bugs via ubuntu-bug / Report a Problem * hggdh apriori is against 17:58 bdmurray Additionally with the symptom based bug reporting this will make much more sense 17:58 bcurtiswx-mini hggdh: not forcing, lol.. you'd ask first and get their permission through a form 17:58 bdmurray er, be much more beneficial 17:59 andresmujica ok, time is rover... 17:59 hggdh 18:00 andresmujica so, i' ll summarize to the mailing list.. 18:00 bcurtiswx-mini well, bdmurray suggested using the ML more... maybe a good idea ;-) since we've got tons to talk about still 18:00 andresmujica yeap 18:00 andresmujica hope it was benefical to every one! 18:00 andresmujica thanks for the assistance 18:00 andresmujica #endmeeting }}}