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| * https://help.launchpad.net/Teams/Mentoring
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| * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DebuginfoFS
Topics discussed at this meeting:
- Rationale behind this Meeting -- andresmujica
- New bug trends identified by triagers -- andresmujica
- Bugs that need attention/help/mentoring -- andresmujica
- Open Discussions -- bcurtiswx
Rationale behind this meeting
andresmujica explained why the meeting was proposed; as a mean of improving BugSquad triage duties, help the members, identifying needed tasks. pedro_ and hggdh both consider that is a great way to improve comunication between team members and help triagers to get more involved. Bdmurray raised the point that some of the topics need a wider audience than just the meeting, as many of the BugSquad memebers cannot assist for timezone differences.
TheKorn also proposed to open a monthly slot at the QA regular meeting for triaging discussion. However previous experience at that meeting indicated that the normal topics cover all the time slot available.
The conclusion was to move on and evaluate if the proposed topics would fit well with this meeting format.
New bug trends identified by triagers
The idea here was to discuss at the meeting new trends, however as azimout pointed out, this kind of topic needs a faster response so the apropiate place would be the ML.
So the conclusion was that triagers should arise new trends detected by them at the Mailing List to obtain a faster reaction from the BugSquad members.
Also the creation of a wiki page for consolidating New Trends and Infamous Bugs at each Release Cycle was proposed. The layout of this wiki page would be discussed at ML.
Bugs that need attention/help/mentoring
It was discussed which approach would be more effectively for the mentoring process, as Bdmurray explained the LP mentoring is targeted to help fixing bugs, and the mentoring needed at the BugSquad was more oriented towards helping new members to triage effectively more bugs.
Everyone agreed that the best way of mentoring at the BugSquad was asking at the #ubuntu-channel and at the Mailing list.
Also pedro_ reminded everyone about the Mentor's wiki page. The idea is that Bugcontrol team members include their IRC nicknames in that page so people looking for mentors can ask them directly at the channel.
The following links were useful for this topic:
bdmurray asked how people attending UDS can help out the Bug Squad, and hggdh asked for better debugging instructions for more packages, giving some useful links from other distributions.
As more feedback is needed bdmurray would ask about this at the ML.
Also for the final discussion the general consensus was to held MONTHLY meetings the 2nd Tuesday of the Month. So the next meeting would be at June 9th same hour same channel.
Agree on next meeting date and time
Next meeting will be on Tuesday, June 9th at 16:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting.
17:01 andresmujica1 #startmeeting 17:01 MootBot Meeting started at 11:01. The chair is andresmujica1. 17:01 MootBot Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] 17:01 andresmujica1 ok 17:02 andresmujica1 let's put our first proposed topic 17:02 andresmujica1 before that the proposed agenda is here 17:02 andresmujica1 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting * pedro_ looking 17:03 andresmujica1 [TOPIC] Rationale behind this Meeting -- andresmujica 17:03 MootBot New Topic: Rationale behind this Meeting -- andresmujica 17:03 andresmujica1 Some weeks ago an email wass sent to bugsquad/bugcontrol mailing list proposing a formal meeting for bugsquad members 17:04 andresmujica1 the main objective for this meeting is to improve our triaging duties, help us each other, identifying some needed tasks, and everything that you may consider would benefit us as a team 17:05 andresmujica1 so i wonder what the members think about this? 17:05 andresmujica1 why are the expectations? and thoughts? 17:05 andresmujica1 s/why/which/ 17:06 hggdh presonally, I consider it a good idea -- not only for -control, but for any other triager that wants to get involved in triaging 17:06 pedro_ I think it's a great way to improve the communication of the bugsquad itself, people can come to here and ask for help, be more involved with the team, etc 17:07 txwikinger_work +1 17:07 andresmujica1 ohh, yes this is for every bugsquad member, even if they aren't member yet, this would be a great introduction i believe. 17:07 hggdh even with the wiki, there are always questions on procedure, and they could be if not addressed here, at least discussed 17:07 pedro_ so it's going to be a monthly meeting? 17:07 andresmujica1 not only control, but one of the ideas is to help introduce to the team new members. 17:07 bdmurray I think some issues should have a wider audience, perhaps the mailing list, than just this meeting though. 17:08 andresmujica1 the initial propose was to held it monthly.. 17:08 andresmujica1 bdmurray: you believe this can overlap with mailing list or idle time at the channel?? 17:10 bdmurray I just think that due to the wide variety of time zones that bug squad members inhabit some issues are best discussed on the mailing list as opposed in a meeting a specific time that not everyone may be able to attend. 17:10 hggdh bdmurray, I agree -- the meeting is not enough. Overlapping with idle time in #ubuntu-bugs does not help, if the pieces of userful information are spread through time 17:11 andresmujica1 yea i believe that too. Maybe we should focus on certain topics that can be addressed here 17:11 andresmujica1 i wonder, as you had formal meetings in the past, why they're not active anymore? 17:12 thekorn my (very) personal opinion is: don't start yet another meeting, why not using the QA meeting on wednesday for discussions around the bugsquad, 17:13 bdmurray The QA meeting usually ends up taking most of the time alloted for it. 17:13 thekorn we could even add a bi-weekly or monthly topic to the agend for bugsquad topics 17:13 andresmujica1 hmm that could be a good idea. 17:14 bdmurray When looking at each topic I think it is important to evaluate the utility of discussing it in a meeting versus on the mailing list. 17:14 charlie-tca If another meeting needs to be held, it should be kept within the allotted time. 17:16 hggdh OK. I propose we finish this item on the mailing list; and move on 17:16 andresmujica1 OK. 17:16 hggdh otherwise we will use all time to discuss if we are, or are not to have meetings 17:16 andresmujica1 But this item is important as it would determine if we are going to stablish a regular meeting or not. 17:16 thekorn good idea 17:16 andresmujica1 yes. 17:17 bdmurray Why don't we try to evaluate the appropriateness of each topic as they come up? 17:17 hggdh +1 17:17 andresmujica1 +1 17:17 andresmujica1 ok so let's move with next topic. 17:17 andresmujica1 everyone agree? 17:18 pedro_ yeah, let's go on 17:18 hggdh andresmujica1, you are the chair ;-) 17:18 andresmujica1 [TOPIC] New bug trends identified by triagers 17:18 MootBot New Topic: New bug trends identified by triagers 17:19 andresmujica1 The idea to propose this topic is that as we are A LOT of triagers 17:19 andresmujica1 some of them had found some bug trends... 17:19 andresmujica1 for example 17:19 andresmujica1 as soon as Intrepid went out, cheese had a regression due to uvcvideo, 17:19 andresmujica1 and a lot of people were affected 17:20 andresmujica1 another example is X freeze bugs.. 17:20 andresmujica1 so i believe that when a triager believes it has found some big issue, it can be discussed here to take apropiate measurements.. 17:21 andresmujica1 don't know what you think? 17:21 pace_t_zulu sorry i'm late, is this the BugSquad meeting? 17:21 hacktick me too... 17:21 andresmujica1 pace_t_zulu: yes it is, welcome! 17:21 bdmurray So this is a topic that may be best for the mailing list since more triagers will be able to comment on / act on the trend. 17:21 azimout pace_t_zulu: yes it is 17:21 hacktick hello everyone 17:21 pace_t_zulu hello everyone, my name is John Haitas 17:21 hggdh hum. I think that if a trend is perceived, the ML is the fastest way to get it out 17:21 azimout andresmujica1: how would such a trend be discussed "here", if these meetings will be monthly? 17:22 pace_t_zulu apologies for my tardiness.... i will sit back and listen 17:22 pedro_ if they found something that could be big , that should be raised on the ML, right? 17:22 pedro_ hggdh: +1 17:22 andresmujica1 yes, you're absolutely right. So maybe we need more ML for this kind of issues? 17:22 hggdh but we *could* have a wiki showing current trends 17:22 andresmujica1 have we ever do that? 17:22 pedro_ could we adopt what bdmurray said and send this to the ML rather? 17:22 micahg wiki, or could maybe a section of brainstorm or something similar? 17:23 azimout wiki sounds good... 17:23 bdmurray Checking the wiki requires work on readers parts while an e-mail to the mailing list with show in their inbox 17:23 andresmujica1 yeap.. if it's a trend we need faster reaction... 17:23 micahg people can subscribe to the wiki page 17:23 charlie-tca This needs to be on the mailing list so action can happen fast enough 17:24 bdmurray I'd propose summarizing the trend in the mailing list message and document it at a wiki page 17:24 andresmujica1 OK. 17:24 hggdh the ML should always be used to communicate a trend; the wiki can be used just as a consolidation 17:24 hggdh bdmurray, +1 (you *are* a fast typist ;-) 17:24 andresmujica1 and we can have a consolidation page for each release cycle ? 17:24 charlie-tca Agreed. Discussion should happen at mailing list level 17:24 hggdh we can 17:25 pedro_ andresmujica1: that'd be ideal 17:25 bdmurray I do think having a wiki page with infamous bugs for a release would be quite useful. 17:25 andresmujica1 [IDEA] New Trends discussion should happen at mailing list level 17:25 MootBot IDEA received: New Trends discussion should happen at mailing list level 17:26 pace_t_zulu +1 17:26 azimout how about automating this functionality in launchpad? 17:26 azimout or is it already there? 17:26 hggdh azimout, the idea is good, but this is a complex thing to get. 17:26 azimout something like "bugs with most activity in the past 7 days" 17:27 bdmurray azimout: Those usually end up already being known to the development team 17:27 hggdh er, packages with the most bugs would be better 17:27 azimout or "bugs with the most duplicates added in the past 7 days" 17:27 azimout hggdh: with the most *new* bugs, you mean? 17:28 bdmurray wrt bugs with the most duplicates this report may be helpful - http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/launchpad-database/bugs-with-most-duplicates.html 17:28 hggdh yes, for example. But I think this has to be more carefully considered, and it all falls into the wiki page bdmurray suggested 17:29 andresmujica1 well, but for the topic discussed, i believe that our work as team member is to report at the ML the trend identified, and then with the existing reports and experience of the people here we can confirm it 17:29 andresmujica1 to take the actions needed. 17:30 hggdh +1. Layout of wiki page should be discussed off-meeting, though 17:30 andresmujica1 ok. 17:31 andresmujica1 [IDEA] WIKI page consolidating new trends 17:31 MootBot IDEA received: WIKI page consolidating new trends 17:31 andresmujica1 [ACTION] Discuss the convenience or not of a Wiki page with bad bugs per cycle at the ML 17:31 MootBot ACTION received: Discuss the convenience or not of a Wiki page with bad bugs per cycle at the ML 17:32 andresmujica1 next topic then, 17:32 andresmujica1 [TOPIC] Bugs that need attention/help/mentoring 17:32 MootBot New Topic: Bugs that need attention/help/mentoring 17:32 andresmujica1 the discussion maybe would be similar to the previous one? 17:33 bdmurray If you mean triage mentoring, like what should I do with bug X then again I think asking the question on the mailing list may be best. 17:33 thekorn I think we have two ways for this bugs ask in #ubuntu-bugs or ask on the ML 17:33 bdmurray This might also motivate other new triagers to ask questions if these types of questions are being asked on it. 17:34 hggdh didn 't we reopen mentoring for triage? 17:34 bdmurray hggdh: Do you mean the mentoring thing in Launchapd? 17:34 hggdh bdmurray, yes 17:34 thekorn great idea 17:35 thekorn we would be the first team using it ;) 17:35 andresmujica1 :) 17:35 bdmurray That's really more for fixing bugs than for triaging bugs. Additionally, if I can mentor someone triaging bugs I can usually do the triaging faster than waiting for someone else. 17:35 bdmurray Because the amount of time it takes to triage is usually significantly less than the time it takes to fix a bug. 17:36 micahg well, I've had great help from the #ubuntu-bugs channel and hddgh in particular in learning how to triage 17:36 hggdh well, yes. But this is a way for passing knowledge. I have been doing a lot if it lately 17:36 andresmujica1 that's right, however maybe we can somehow help new members with mentoring.. so they can triage more effectively the bugs 17:36 micahg and I've been able to triage about 100 bugs since I started about 2 weeks ago 17:36 bdmurray I think the right way to approach this is having people asking to help rather than looking at a bug and offering to help with it. 17:36 micahg mentoring is a great help 17:37 azimout can someone please paste the link to mentoring in LP? 17:37 hggdh prehaps we should stress the -bugs as a channel for that 17:37 bdmurray If I'm already looking at the bug I might as well work on it. 17:37 hggdh (although this *is* the idea behind it) 17:38 azimout i wanted to remind everyone that any advice on mentoring should also be added to the wiki, to avoid repeated questions 17:38 hggdh bdmurray, I agree, and most of the times I am itching to get it done. But by leaving the work to the new triager, I am sure I end up helping more. But it *does* take much longer 17:38 micahg it's the same with any training though 17:38 andresmujica1 mentoring as a way to get more bugs effectively triaged 17:38 micahg initially you can do it faster yourself 17:38 bdmurray And this is why I think we should promote people asking questions about the bugs they are looking at or find. 17:38 showard_ in my opinion, mentoring is helpful telling new people the tricks on how to triage efficiently and finding the bugs with highest impact. Wiki and -bugs can help single bugs 17:38 micahg but eventually you have more hands to help 17:38 azimout never mind: https://help.launchpad.net/Teams/Mentoring 17:39 hggdh so. To summarise: do we do mentoring, or not? 17:39 bdmurray I think mentoring is a valuable thing but marking bugs as mentoring offered is not. 17:39 andresmujica1 ok, so the mentoring model applyable here is at the channel 17:39 micahg +1 bdmurray 17:40 micahg except for fixing bugs as bdmurray mentioned in the beginning 17:40 hggdh +1 17:40 azimout +1 17:40 charlie-tca +1 17:40 thekorn +1 for passiv mentoring: answering questions on -bugs or on the mailinglist is the best way to do mentoring 17:40 txwikinger_work +1 17:40 andresmujica1 ok 17:40 andresmujica1 everyone should be a mentor or we should distinguish them? 17:41 pedro_ I've created a page some time ago https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Mentors 17:41 bencrisford we could organise it like the MOTU do? === fader is now known as fader|lunch 17:41 pedro_ where everybody on the bugcontrol team can add their self if they are willing to mentor someone 17:42 bdmurray Putting irc nicks on that wiki page might help too 17:42 hggdh this will imply that a triager can target you on a question. So, please only put your name/nick there if you are willing to answer 17:42 bdmurray We could also contact the bugcontrol mailing list for mentors. 17:42 thewrath not spamming lol 17:43 hggdh bdmurray, good idea 17:43 pedro_ that'd be nice, yes 17:43 pace_t_zulu I think I would do well to have a Mentor 17:43 pace_t_zulu So that I can be more effective triaging 17:44 andresmujica1 so the idea for mentoring would be: answering questions on -bugs or on the mailinglist and put irc nicks at the wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Mentors 17:44 andresmujica1 ok, next topic 17:45 bdmurray and contact the bug control mailing list for ments 17:45 andresmujica1 right! 17:45 andresmujica1 [TOPIC] Open Discussions -- bcurtiswx 17:45 MootBot New Topic: Open Discussions -- bcurtiswx 17:46 hggdh well, bcurtiswx is note here. Anyone willing please chime in 17:46 andresmujica1 well. We've covered a pair of topics, and they're probably better handled at the ML, however there are still some topics that could get into this format 17:47 andresmujica1 and as far as i can see 17:47 bdmurray One thing I'm curious to know is how people attending UDS can help out the Bug Squad. 17:47 andresmujica1 one big conclusion is that we need to use a lot more the ML. 17:47 hggdh bdmurray, what do you mean? 17:48 hggdh hum. Better debugging instructions for more packages, for starters 17:48 bdmurray hggdh: I mean since I'm going there, is there anything I can find out for people? In terms of having hallway conversations with developers or Launchpad people. 17:49 hggdh yes -- we need to beef up the debugging procedures 17:49 micahg +1 hggdh 17:49 hggdh we only have a handfull of packages nowadays 17:49 andresmujica1 which ones from the bugsquad would attend to UDS ? 17:49 azimout +1 hggdh 17:50 andresmujica1 ok, we've got 10 more minutes. 17:50 andresmujica1 so should we have monthly meetings for the bugsquad team? 17:51 azimout let's do lp improvements then 17:51 hggdh bdmurray, one thing to get there is if we could have something like this: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DebuginfoFS 17:51 bdmurray I'll send an e-mail to the bugsquad regarding how UDS attendees can help. 17:52 andresmujica1 ok. 17:52 micahg we've got something like that 17:52 micahg https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures 17:52 hggdh sounds like once-a-month is not bad. We can revisit it on the ML 17:52 hggdh micahg, yes, but there are many more packages than what we currently provide there 17:52 micahg indeed 17:53 hggdh (and we *did* get something done here, so it was worth it) 17:53 andresmujica1 yes. 17:53 andresmujica1 i do believe that too 17:53 andresmujica1 we should make a vote? 17:54 bdmurray I thought I saw that SUSE had a wiki page with some debugging procedures for various packages that we might look at 17:54 hggdh bdmurray, will look at it 17:54 bdmurray http://en.opensuse.org/Submitting_Bug_Reports 17:54 MootBot LINK received: http://en.opensuse.org/Submitting_Bug_Reports 17:54 bdmurray And of course looking at upstream project pages might be useful 17:54 andresmujica1 everyone agrees with having a bugsquad monthly meeting would be useful? 17:54 hggdh right now -- once-a-month? +/-1, please 17:54 hggdh +1 17:55 andresmujica1 +1 17:55 micahg +1 17:55 charlie-tca +1 17:55 pedro_ +1 17:55 bdmurray +1 17:55 andresmujica1 great! 17:55 azimout +1 17:55 mib_u03jo9xa +1 17:55 pace_t_zulu +1 17:56 bdmurray June 9th? continuing with the 2nd Tuesday trend? 17:56 hggdh +1 17:56 andresmujica1 +1 17:56 andresmujica1 2nd Tuesday is perfect 17:56 charlie-tca Yes, makes it easier to keep it the same 17:56 azimout +1 17:57 andresmujica1 so, i believe we should streamline the topics for this meeting so they don't clash with ML and -bugs and get useful for this format. I wonder of the proposed topics listed at the wiki, which ones do you believe that we must discuss next meeting? 17:57 mib_u03jo9xa +1 17:57 azimout but, we didn't do the lp improvements part :-( 17:57 charlie-tca Nor is the person that proposed it here. 17:57 andresmujica1 :( we need lp improvements :) but is OK if we let that topic for next meeting? or anyone wants to move to our channel? 17:58 charlie-tca Is it real important? 17:58 charlie-tca If not, postpone it to the next meeting 17:58 showard_ ML with proposals for changes? 17:58 mib_u03jo9xa does lp = LaunchPad? 17:58 pace_t_zulu mib_u03jo9xa: yes 17:58 azimout important yes, urgent no. +1 for next meeting 17:58 pedro_ mib_u03jo9xa: yeap 17:58 hggdh let's get to a quick chat on -bugs, and finish this meeting 17:58 hggdh 1 minute 17:58 andresmujica1 ok 17:59 bdmurray andresmujica1: thanks for organizing this! 17:59 andresmujica1 [AGREED] NExt meeting would be held on June 9th 16.00 UTC at #ubuntu-meeting 17:59 MootBot AGREED received: NExt meeting would be held on June 9th 16.00 UTC at #ubuntu-meeting 17:59 andresmujica1 #endmeeting 17:59 MootBot Meeting finished at 11:59. 17:59 andresmujica1 thanks to all of you, let's chat a bit at -bugs 17:59 hggdh thank you, foks 18:00 pedro_ thanks you all 18:00 micahg thanks everyone 18:00 charlie-tca Thanks, everyone. And a big thank you to andresmujica1 for organizing this. 18:00 andresmujica1 thanks to all of you to attending!!