2009-12-05

Revision 2 as of 2009-05-13 03:12:41

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Agenda

Topics discussed at this meeting:

  • Rationale behind this Meeting -- andresmujica
  • New bug trends identified by triagers -- andresmujica
  • Bugs that need attention/help/mentoring -- andresmujica
  • Open Discussions -- bcurtiswx

Minutes

Rationale behind this meeting

andresmujica explained why the meeting was proposed; as a mean of improving BugSquad triage duties, help the members, identifying needed tasks. pedro_ and hggdh both consider that is a great way to improve comunication between team members and help triagers to get more involved. Bdmurray raised the point that some of the topics need a wider audience than just the meeting, as many of the BugSquad memebers cannot assist for timezone differences.

TheKorn also proposed to open a monthly slot at the QA regular meeting for triaging discussion. However previous experience at that meeting indicated that the normal topics cover all the time slot available.

The conclusion was to move on and evaluate if the proposed topics would fit well with this meeting format.

The idea here was to discuss at the meeting new trends, however as azimout pointed out, this kind of topic needs a faster response so the apropiate place would be the ML.

So the conclusion was that triagers should arise new trends detected by them at the Mailing List to obtain a faster reaction from the BugSquad members.

Also the creation of a wiki page for consolidating New Trends and Infamous Bugs at each Release Cycle was proposed. The layout of this wiki page would be discussed at ML.

Bugs that need attention/help/mentoring

It was discussed which approach would be more effectively for the mentoring process, as Bdmurray explained the LP mentoring is targeted to help fixing bugs, and the mentoring needed at the BugSquad was more oriented towards helping new members to triage effectively more bugs.

Everyone agreed that the best way of mentoring at the BugSquad was asking at the #ubuntu-channel and at the Mailing list.

Also pedro_ reminded everyone about the Mentor's wiki page. The idea is that Bugcontrol team members include their IRC nicknames in that page so people looking for mentors can ask them directly at the channel.

The following links were useful for this topic:

Open Discussion

bdmurray asked how people attending UDS can help out the Bug Squad, and hggdh asked for better debugging instructions for more packages, giving some useful links from other distributions.

As more feedback is needed bdmurray would ask about this at the ML.

Also for the final discussion the general consensus was to held MONTHLY meetings the 2nd Tuesday of the Month. So the next meeting would be at June 9th same hour same channel.

Agree on next meeting date and time

Next meeting will be on Tuesday, June 9th at 16:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting.

Log

17:01   andresmujica1   #startmeeting
17:01   MootBot Meeting started at 11:01. The chair is andresmujica1.
17:01   MootBot Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
17:01   andresmujica1   ok
17:02   andresmujica1   let's put our first proposed topic
17:02   andresmujica1   before that the proposed agenda is here
17:02   andresmujica1   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting
* pedro_ looking
17:03   andresmujica1   [TOPIC] Rationale behind this Meeting -- andresmujica
17:03   MootBot New Topic:  Rationale behind this Meeting -- andresmujica
17:03   andresmujica1   Some weeks ago an email wass sent to bugsquad/bugcontrol mailing list proposing a formal meeting for bugsquad members
17:04   andresmujica1   the main objective for this meeting is to improve our triaging duties, help us each other, identifying some needed tasks, and everything that you may consider would benefit us as a team
17:05   andresmujica1   so i wonder what the members think about this?
17:05   andresmujica1   why are the expectations? and thoughts?
17:05   andresmujica1   s/why/which/
17:06   hggdh   presonally, I consider it a good idea -- not only for -control, but for any other triager that wants to get involved in triaging
17:06   pedro_  I think it's a great way to improve the communication of the bugsquad itself, people can come to here and ask for help, be more involved with the team, etc
17:07   txwikinger_work +1
17:07   andresmujica1   ohh, yes this is for every bugsquad member, even if they aren't member yet, this would be a great introduction i believe.
17:07   hggdh   even with the wiki, there are always questions on procedure, and they could be if not addressed here, at least discussed
17:07   pedro_  so it's going to be a monthly meeting?
17:07   andresmujica1   not only control, but one of the ideas is to help introduce to the team new members.
17:07   bdmurray        I think some issues should have a wider audience, perhaps the mailing list, than just this meeting though.
17:08   andresmujica1   the initial propose was to held it monthly..
17:08   andresmujica1   bdmurray: you believe this can overlap with mailing list or idle time at the channel??
17:10   bdmurray        I just think that due to the wide variety of time zones that bug squad members inhabit some issues are best discussed on the mailing list as opposed in a meeting a specific time that not everyone may be able to attend.
17:10   hggdh   bdmurray, I agree -- the meeting is not enough. Overlapping with idle time in #ubuntu-bugs does not help, if the pieces of userful information are spread through time
17:11   andresmujica1   yea i believe that too.  Maybe we should focus on certain topics that can be addressed here
17:11   andresmujica1   i wonder, as you had formal meetings in the past, why they're not active anymore?
17:12   thekorn my (very) personal opinion is: don't start yet another meeting, why not using the QA meeting on wednesday for discussions around the bugsquad,
17:13   bdmurray        The QA meeting usually ends up taking most of the time alloted for it.
17:13   thekorn we could even add a bi-weekly or monthly topic to the agend for bugsquad topics
17:13   andresmujica1   hmm that could be a good idea.
17:14   bdmurray        When looking at each topic I think it is important to evaluate the utility of discussing it in a meeting versus on the mailing list.
17:14   charlie-tca     If another meeting needs to be held, it should be kept within the allotted time.
17:16   hggdh   OK. I propose we finish this item on the mailing list; and move on
17:16   andresmujica1   OK.
17:16   hggdh   otherwise we will use all time to discuss if we are, or are not to have meetings
17:16   andresmujica1   But this item is important as it would determine if we are going to stablish a regular meeting or not.
17:16   thekorn good idea
17:16   andresmujica1   yes.
17:17   bdmurray        Why don't we try to evaluate the appropriateness of each topic as they come up?
17:17   hggdh   +1
17:17   andresmujica1   +1
17:17   andresmujica1   ok so let's move with next topic.
17:17   andresmujica1   everyone agree?
17:18   pedro_  yeah, let's go on
17:18   hggdh   andresmujica1, you are the chair ;-)
17:18   andresmujica1   [TOPIC] New bug trends identified by triagers
17:18   MootBot New Topic:  New bug trends identified by triagers
17:19   andresmujica1   The idea to propose this topic is that as we are A LOT of triagers
17:19   andresmujica1   some of them had found some bug trends...
17:19   andresmujica1   for example
17:19   andresmujica1   as soon as Intrepid went out, cheese had a regression due to uvcvideo,
17:19   andresmujica1   and a lot of people were affected
17:20   andresmujica1   another example is X freeze bugs..
17:20   andresmujica1   so i believe that when a triager believes it has found some big issue, it can be discussed here to take apropiate measurements..
17:21   andresmujica1   don't know what you think?
17:21   pace_t_zulu     sorry i'm late, is this the BugSquad meeting?
17:21   hacktick        me too...
17:21   andresmujica1   pace_t_zulu: yes it is, welcome!
17:21   bdmurray        So this is a topic that may be best for the mailing list since more triagers will be able to comment on / act on the trend.
17:21   azimout pace_t_zulu: yes it is
17:21   hacktick        hello everyone
17:21   pace_t_zulu     hello everyone, my name is John Haitas
17:21   hggdh   hum. I think that if a trend is perceived, the ML is the fastest way to get it out
17:21   azimout andresmujica1: how would such a trend be discussed "here", if these meetings will be monthly?
17:22   pace_t_zulu     apologies for my tardiness.... i will sit back and listen
17:22   pedro_  if they found something that could be big , that should be raised on the ML, right?
17:22   pedro_  hggdh: +1
17:22   andresmujica1   yes, you're absolutely right.  So maybe we need more ML for this kind of issues?
17:22   hggdh   but we *could* have a wiki showing current trends
17:22   andresmujica1   have we ever do that?
17:22   pedro_  could we adopt what bdmurray said and send this to the ML rather?
17:22   micahg  wiki, or could maybe a section of brainstorm or something similar?
17:23   azimout wiki sounds good...
17:23   bdmurray        Checking the wiki requires work on readers parts while an e-mail to the mailing list with show in their inbox
17:23   andresmujica1   yeap.. if it's a trend we need faster reaction...
17:23   micahg  people can subscribe to the wiki page
17:23   charlie-tca     This needs to be on the mailing list so action can happen fast enough
17:24   bdmurray        I'd propose summarizing the trend in the mailing list message and document it at a wiki page
17:24   andresmujica1   OK.
17:24   hggdh   the ML should always be used to communicate a trend; the wiki can be used just as a consolidation
17:24   hggdh   bdmurray, +1 (you *are* a fast typist ;-)
17:24   andresmujica1   and we can have a consolidation page for each release cycle ?
17:24   charlie-tca     Agreed. Discussion should happen at mailing list level
17:24   hggdh   we can
17:25   pedro_  andresmujica1: that'd be ideal
17:25   bdmurray        I do think having a wiki page with infamous bugs for a release would be quite useful.
17:25   andresmujica1   [IDEA] New Trends discussion should happen at mailing list level
17:25   MootBot IDEA received:  New Trends discussion should happen at mailing list level
17:26   pace_t_zulu     +1
17:26   azimout how about automating this functionality in launchpad?
17:26   azimout or is it already there?
17:26   hggdh   azimout, the idea is good, but this is a complex thing to get.
17:26   azimout something like "bugs with most activity in the past 7 days"
17:27   bdmurray        azimout: Those usually end up already being known to the development team
17:27   hggdh   er, packages with the most bugs would be better
17:27   azimout or "bugs with the most duplicates added in the past 7 days"
17:27   azimout hggdh: with the most *new* bugs, you mean?
17:28   bdmurray        wrt bugs with the most duplicates this report may be helpful - http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/launchpad-database/bugs-with-most-duplicates.html
17:28   hggdh   yes, for example. But I think this has to be more carefully considered, and it all falls into the wiki page bdmurray suggested
17:29   andresmujica1   well, but for the topic discussed, i believe that our work as team member is to report at the ML the trend identified, and then with the existing reports and experience of the people here we can confirm it
17:29   andresmujica1   to take the actions needed.
17:30   hggdh   +1. Layout of  wiki page should be discussed off-meeting, though
17:30   andresmujica1   ok.
17:31   andresmujica1   [IDEA] WIKI page consolidating new trends
17:31   MootBot IDEA received:  WIKI page consolidating new trends
17:31   andresmujica1   [ACTION] Discuss the convenience or not of a Wiki page with bad bugs per cycle at the ML
17:31   MootBot ACTION received:  Discuss the convenience or not of a Wiki page with bad bugs per cycle at the ML
17:32   andresmujica1   next topic then,
17:32   andresmujica1   [TOPIC] Bugs that need attention/help/mentoring
17:32   MootBot New Topic:  Bugs that need attention/help/mentoring
17:32   andresmujica1   the discussion maybe would be similar to the previous one?
17:33   bdmurray        If you mean triage mentoring, like what should I do with bug X then again I think asking the question on the mailing list may be best.
17:33   thekorn I think we have two ways for this bugs ask in #ubuntu-bugs or ask on the ML
17:33   bdmurray        This might also motivate other new triagers to ask questions if these types of questions are being asked on it.
17:34   hggdh   didn 't we reopen mentoring for triage?
17:34   bdmurray        hggdh: Do you mean the mentoring thing in Launchapd?
17:34   hggdh   bdmurray, yes
17:34   thekorn great idea
17:35   thekorn we would be the first team using it ;)
17:35   andresmujica1   :)
17:35   bdmurray        That's really more for fixing bugs than for triaging bugs.  Additionally, if I can mentor someone triaging bugs I can usually do the triaging faster than waiting for someone else.
17:35   bdmurray        Because the amount of time it takes to triage is usually significantly less than the time it takes to fix a bug.
17:36   micahg  well, I've had great help from the #ubuntu-bugs channel and hddgh in particular in learning how to triage
17:36   hggdh   well, yes. But this is a way for passing knowledge. I have been doing a lot if it lately
17:36   andresmujica1   that's right, however maybe we can somehow help new members with mentoring.. so they can triage more effectively the bugs
17:36   micahg  and I've been able to triage about 100 bugs since I started about 2 weeks ago
17:36   bdmurray        I think the right way to approach this is having people asking to help rather than looking at a bug and offering to help with it.
17:36   micahg  mentoring is a great help
17:37   azimout can someone please paste the link to mentoring in LP?
17:37   hggdh   prehaps we should stress the -bugs as a channel for that
17:37   bdmurray        If I'm already looking at the bug I might as well work on it.
17:37   hggdh   (although this *is* the idea behind it)
17:38   azimout i wanted to remind everyone that any advice on mentoring should also be added to the wiki, to avoid repeated questions
17:38   hggdh   bdmurray, I agree, and most of the times I am itching to get it done. But by leaving the work to the new triager, I am sure I end up helping more. But it *does* take much longer
17:38   micahg  it's the same with any training though
17:38   andresmujica1   mentoring as a way to get more bugs effectively triaged
17:38   micahg  initially you can do it faster yourself
17:38   bdmurray        And this is why I think we should promote people asking questions about the bugs they are looking at or find.
17:38   showard_        in my opinion, mentoring is helpful telling new people the tricks on how to triage efficiently and finding the bugs with highest impact. Wiki and -bugs can help single bugs
17:38   micahg  but eventually you have more hands to help
17:38   azimout never mind: https://help.launchpad.net/Teams/Mentoring
17:39   hggdh   so. To summarise: do we do mentoring, or not?
17:39   bdmurray        I think mentoring is a valuable thing but marking bugs as mentoring offered is not.
17:39   andresmujica1   ok, so the mentoring model applyable here is at the channel
17:39   micahg  +1 bdmurray
17:40   micahg  except for fixing bugs as bdmurray mentioned in the beginning
17:40   hggdh   +1
17:40   azimout +1
17:40   charlie-tca     +1
17:40   thekorn +1 for passiv mentoring: answering questions on -bugs or on the mailinglist is the best way to do mentoring
17:40   txwikinger_work +1
17:40   andresmujica1   ok
17:40   andresmujica1   everyone should be a mentor or we should distinguish them?
17:41   pedro_  I've created a page some time ago https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Mentors
17:41   bencrisford     we could organise it like the MOTU do?
=== fader is now known as fader|lunch
17:41   pedro_  where everybody on the bugcontrol team can add their self if they are willing to mentor someone
17:42   bdmurray        Putting irc nicks on that wiki page might help too
17:42   hggdh   this will imply that a triager can target you on a question. So, please only put your name/nick there if you are willing to answer
17:42   bdmurray        We could also contact the bugcontrol mailing list for mentors.
17:42   thewrath        not spamming lol
17:43   hggdh   bdmurray, good idea
17:43   pedro_  that'd be nice, yes
17:43   pace_t_zulu     I think I would do well to have a Mentor
17:43   pace_t_zulu     So that I can be more effective triaging
17:44   andresmujica1   so the idea for mentoring  would be: answering questions on -bugs or on the mailinglist and put irc nicks at the wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Mentors
17:44   andresmujica1   ok, next topic
17:45   bdmurray        and contact the bug control mailing list for ments
17:45   andresmujica1   right!
17:45   andresmujica1   [TOPIC] Open Discussions -- bcurtiswx
17:45   MootBot New Topic:  Open Discussions -- bcurtiswx
17:46   hggdh   well, bcurtiswx is note here. Anyone willing please chime in
17:46   andresmujica1   well. We've covered a pair of topics, and they're probably better handled at the ML, however there are still some topics that could get into this format
17:47   andresmujica1   and as far as i can see
17:47   bdmurray        One thing I'm curious to know is how people attending UDS can help out the Bug Squad.
17:47   andresmujica1   one big conclusion is that we need to use a lot more the ML.
17:47   hggdh   bdmurray, what do you mean?
17:48   hggdh   hum. Better debugging instructions for more packages, for starters
17:48   bdmurray        hggdh: I mean since I'm going there, is there anything I can find out for people?  In terms of having hallway conversations with developers or Launchpad people.
17:49   hggdh   yes -- we need to beef up the debugging procedures
17:49   micahg  +1 hggdh
17:49   hggdh   we only have a handfull of packages nowadays
17:49   andresmujica1   which ones from the bugsquad would attend to UDS ?
17:49   azimout +1 hggdh
17:50   andresmujica1   ok, we've got 10 more minutes.
17:50   andresmujica1   so should we have monthly meetings for the bugsquad team?
17:51   azimout let's do lp improvements then
17:51   hggdh   bdmurray, one thing to get there is if we could have something like this: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DebuginfoFS
17:51   bdmurray        I'll send an e-mail to the bugsquad regarding how UDS attendees can help.
17:52   andresmujica1   ok.
17:52   micahg  we've got something like that
17:52   micahg  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
17:52   hggdh   sounds like once-a-month is not bad. We can revisit it on the ML
17:52   hggdh   micahg, yes, but there are many more packages than what we currently provide there
17:52   micahg  indeed
17:53   hggdh   (and we *did* get something done here, so it was worth it)
17:53   andresmujica1   yes.
17:53   andresmujica1   i do believe that too
17:53   andresmujica1   we should make a vote?
17:54   bdmurray        I thought I saw that SUSE had a wiki page with some debugging procedures for various packages that we might look at
17:54   hggdh   bdmurray, will look at it
17:54   bdmurray        http://en.opensuse.org/Submitting_Bug_Reports
17:54   MootBot LINK received:  http://en.opensuse.org/Submitting_Bug_Reports
17:54   bdmurray        And of course looking at upstream project pages might be useful
17:54   andresmujica1   everyone agrees with having a bugsquad monthly meeting would be useful?
17:54   hggdh   right now -- once-a-month? +/-1, please
17:54   hggdh   +1
17:55   andresmujica1   +1
17:55   micahg  +1
17:55   charlie-tca     +1
17:55   pedro_  +1
17:55   bdmurray        +1
17:55   andresmujica1   great!
17:55   azimout +1
17:55   mib_u03jo9xa    +1
17:55   pace_t_zulu     +1
17:56   bdmurray        June 9th? continuing with the 2nd Tuesday trend?
17:56   hggdh   +1
17:56   andresmujica1   +1
17:56   andresmujica1   2nd Tuesday is perfect
17:56   charlie-tca     Yes, makes it easier to keep it the same
17:56   azimout +1
17:57   andresmujica1   so, i believe we should streamline the topics for this meeting so they don't clash with ML and -bugs and get useful for this format.  I wonder of the proposed topics listed at the wiki,  which ones do you believe that  we must discuss next meeting?
17:57   mib_u03jo9xa    +1
17:57   azimout but, we didn't do the lp improvements part :-(
17:57   charlie-tca     Nor is the person that proposed it here.
17:57   andresmujica1   :(  we need lp improvements :) but is OK if we let that topic for next meeting? or anyone wants to move to our channel?
17:58   charlie-tca     Is it real important?
17:58   charlie-tca     If not, postpone it to the next meeting
17:58   showard_        ML with proposals for changes?
17:58   mib_u03jo9xa    does lp = LaunchPad?
17:58   pace_t_zulu     mib_u03jo9xa: yes
17:58   azimout important yes, urgent no. +1 for next meeting
17:58   pedro_  mib_u03jo9xa: yeap
17:58   hggdh   let's get to a quick chat on -bugs, and finish this meeting
17:58   hggdh   1 minute
17:58   andresmujica1   ok
17:59   bdmurray        andresmujica1: thanks for organizing this!
17:59   andresmujica1   [AGREED] NExt meeting would be held on June 9th 16.00 UTC at #ubuntu-meeting
17:59   MootBot AGREED received:  NExt meeting would be held on June 9th 16.00 UTC at #ubuntu-meeting
17:59   andresmujica1   #endmeeting
17:59   MootBot Meeting finished at 11:59.
17:59   andresmujica1   thanks to all of you, let's chat a bit at -bugs
17:59   hggdh   thank you, foks
18:00   pedro_  thanks you all
18:00   micahg  thanks everyone
18:00   charlie-tca     Thanks, everyone. And a big thank you to andresmujica1 for organizing this.
18:00   andresmujica1   thanks to all of you to attending!!