2010-01-19

Agenda

Topics discussed at this meeting:

Minutes

Proper place to file translation bugs in packages

The bugsquad and the translations team discussed the current approach on handling translation bugs and ways to optimize it.

This general approach and its background are described on the page on handling Ubuntu Translations bugs, and to summarize translation bugs are reported against the Ubuntu Translations project in Launchpad, with the Ubuntu Translations Coordinators team acting as the bug supervisor.

The main points of discussion were the duplication of work in having a task for the ubuntu package and the ubuntu-translations project, and the difficulty in the bugsquad and UTC teams to collaborate in setting the status of the bugs for the tasks, i.e. the lack of permissions for both teams involved.

  • It was agreed that given the low number of translations bugs, having a separate, additional task for ubuntu-translations would not be a problem for the Bugsquad.

  • It was agreed that the Bugsquad would be added as a Bug Supervisor for the Ubuntu Translations project (ubuntu-translations) in a way that does not affect the permissions of any of the teams (ubuntu-translations-coordinators, ubuntu-bugcontrol)

  • It was also agreed that an ubuntu-translations task should be opern for all translation bugs straight away, without the need to wait until they've been marked as triaged. The reason being that the ubuntu-translationa project was mostly meant for keeping track of all translation bugs, what would you say. Furthermore, translation bugs are easily identifyable, i.e. when one is spotted it is generally quite obvious that it is a translations-related bug, so it makes sense to file it against ubuntu-translations directly.

  • qense will document the translations bug workflow on Bugs/HowtoTriage

  • dpm will create a new team ubuntu-translations-bugsupervisors, add ubuntu-translations-coordinators and ubuntu-bugcontrol as members and set this new team as the Bug Supervisor for ubuntu-translations

Use of bug tags for translation bugs

dpm asked for some advice and feedback on the usage of tags for translations-related bugs, as documented on the page on handling Ubuntu Translations bugs. Some pieces of advice from the Bugsquad:

  • Tagging is still very much ad hoc. It might help for to prefix the translation tags with -- say -- 'tr', or 'trans' -- so that there will be less chance of conflicts

  • The translations team could look into getting some of their tags listed as official, adding them to Bugs/Tags and sending an email to bugsquad/control explaining why they are being added there

Additional topics

It was agreed to discuss the rest of the topics on the next meeting:

  • What to do with obsolete packages regarding bugs in Ubuntu -- micahg
  • Mention of #ubuntu-bugs for Triage in LP -- micahg
  • Open Discussions

Additional topics Proposed:

  • Defining a Roadmap for the BugSquad -- qense

  • Pollution caused by pending release nominations -- hggdh2

    • Going through release nominations (more accessible search, creation of "Hardy driver" LP group with privs to reject tasks) -- Laibsch (please invite me to the discussion, I should be online)

  • Backporting of newest apport (if possible) to all stable releases (in concept) -- micahg

Log

[16:00] <qense> bdmurray, micahg, pedro_, adiroiban, and others: meeting!
[16:00] <mrand> Yeah, saw that.  I've been a huge fan (and user, and debugger) of Firefox since it was born as Phoenix
[16:01] <adiroiban> hi
[16:02] <mrand> As usual, I'll contribute what and when I can, but I can't get too distracted.
[16:02] <qense> the agenda is at <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting>, for those interested but unaware of the agenda
[16:02] <qense> ah, forgot one, ping: hggdh
[16:02] <dpm> hi all
[16:02] <Laibsch> Moin!
[16:02] <qense> hello
[16:02] <hggdh> pong
[16:03]  * micahg thinks translation bugs should be top priority
[16:03] <qense> yep
[16:04] <micahg> for this meeting at least ;)
[16:04] <qense> dpm, maybe you could start with a quick explanation of the way Translations uses LP now, for those who haven't followed the maillist discussion?
[16:04] <dpm> qense, sure
[16:06] <dpm> here is some background (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/HandlingBugs). Basically, the way the translations team handles bugs is:
[16:06] <dpm> we've got a LP project
[16:06] <dpm> called ubuntu-translations
[16:06] <dpm> the idea is to report all translations-related bugs there
[16:07] <dpm> the UTC (ubuntu-translations-coordinators) is set as the project driver
[16:07] <micahg> dpm: what about the tasks for the ubuntu package/
[16:07] <dpm> and takes care of triaging and fixing
[16:07] <micahg> should they be marked as triaged pending action from the translators team?
[16:07] <mrand> dpm: reported ubuntu-translations even if the translation for that app is handled upstream?
[16:08] <pedro_> micahg, that's what i've been doing so far
[16:09] <micahg> pedro_: me too, but I want to verify if that's the process we want to keep
[16:09] <pedro_> btw the ubuntu-translators team is *pretty* fast to solve issues there
[16:09] <dpm> micahg, it sounds good to me if it sounds good to the bugsquad
[16:09] <dpm> :)
[16:09] <qense> Currently we have mostly two tasks: one for the source pacakge -- often filed by a user via the ubuntu LP project -- and one for the ubuntu-translations project. Most bugs are handled pretty fast by teh translators. However, they can't use all statuses for the source package task.
[16:10] <dpm> the problem we had on the last hugday was that the bugsquad could not set "our" bugs as confirmed
[16:10] <dpm> and what qsense is pointing out ^
[16:10] <qense> On top of that the two different tasks cause extra work and mail noise.
[16:10] <micahg> hmm, confirmed should be allowed on any project that's public
[16:11] <micahg> triaged can't be set
[16:11] <hggdh> the only thing I am not sure about (not even if it is needed) is that -- by assigning the bug to ubuntu-translators we lose track of the real affected package
[16:11] <micahg> hggdh: that's why we mark the ubuntu task as triaged
[16:11] <dpm> micahg, sorry for the confusion. yeah, triaged
[16:11] <qense> The Translators did say to prefer a separate ubuntu-translations project so they can keep track of all translation bugs.
[16:11] <qense> hggdg: there are two tasks iirc
[16:11] <hggdh> oh
[16:11]  * hggdh is slow as usual
[16:12] <hggdh> and I beg all pardon
[16:12] <dpm> I agree that the extra bug task is a downside, but is it that much of a problem given the number of translation bugs?
[16:12] <qense> pardon granted
[16:13] <micahg> dpm: one task isn't much of a problem
[16:13] <micahg> it's the same as upstreaming
[16:13] <qense> It is not much of a problem to me, but I could imagine that when you handle a lot of bugs it could cause you extra time. What seems to be the biggest problem here is the lack of permissions for both teams involved.
[16:13] <dpm> mrand, if the translation is handled upstream, we tend to point the reporters to upstream and close the ubuntu-translations task as invalid
[16:13] <adiroiban> I assume the permissions could be fixed
[16:13] <micahg> qense: I don't think that we should have triage permissions for the translators team
[16:14] <mrand> dpm: cool.  thanks.
[16:14] <dpm> ok, so we seem to agree that additional tasks in this particular case is not much of an issue
[16:14] <dpm> and that the issue is permissions
[16:14] <micahg> the whole point of triage permissions is to verify that a real issue exists
[16:14] <micahg> the translators team would know best where that effort should be
[16:15] <qense> Now there are two people with permissions necessary to properly mark one translation bug.
[16:15] <micahg> hence, we can confim the issue, and if they can fix it mark triaged and take the appropriate action
[16:15] <micahg> qense: adding translators team to bug control might be an option
[16:16] <qense> So first 'Confirmed', then a ubuntu-translations tasks and when they're done a 'Triaged' to the ubuntu task
[16:16] <qense> ?
[16:16] <micahg> but I don't think it makes sense the other way
[16:16] <adiroiban> or add bug control to ubuntu-translations project :)
[16:16] <thekorn> or leave it as it is right now ;)
[16:16] <adiroiban> :)
[16:17] <qense> btw, there is not explanation for this type of bug on Bugs/HowToTriage, shall I add one after this meeting?
[16:17] <dpm> qense, sounds great to me :)
[16:17] <micahg> qense: I thought that was the point of the meeting agenda item, to nail down the specifics
[16:17] <qense> because that's (part of) the main problem, I feel, the process isn't/wasn't well-known by the traigers.
[16:18] <qense> yes, the specifics
[16:18] <qense> is there a specific translators team for bug handling?
[16:18] <dpm> qense, we can then even remove the HandlingBugs page on the Translations wiki and point folks to the Bugs/HowToTriage one
[16:18] <micahg> hmm,maybe it does make sense to have bug control set triaged on the translators bugs
[16:18] <dpm> qense, ubuntu-translations-coordinators
[16:18] <micahg> triaged in ubuntu mean ready for dev to look at
[16:19] <qense> dpm: I wouldn't remvoe that page completely, but instead point to it from the HowTotTiage page
[16:19] <dpm> qense, ok, sounds good
[16:19] <qense> the translators are the devs here, so technically they shouldn't have to do anything with the Ubuntu task
[16:20] <micahg> qense: ok, so maybe my initial proposal was wrong...
[16:20] <qense> however, that would be a bit inefficient, so maybe adding the translators team to the bugcontrol, or a bug handling subset of the translators team, would be indeed the best solution
[16:20] <hggdh> I agree
[16:20] <micahg> qense: I think adiroiban had the better proposal
[16:21] <dpm> I also think adding bug control to ubuntu-translations might be a good idea
[16:21] <micahg> then the triager in Ubuntu can set the translations task as triaged which tells them they need to look at it
[16:21] <qense> That would make sense. people join the bugsquad to triage bugs and they join the translation team to translate, not to triage other bugs
[16:21] <qense> Maybe we could have some kind of Adopt-a(n)-Upstream/Package subgroup later on that focuses on translation bugs?
[16:21] <micahg> dpm +1
[16:22] <micahg> qense: I think that will divide our efforts further
[16:22] <qense> ok, it was just something that came up in my mind
[16:23] <micahg> qense: maybe one day when we have better coverage
[16:23] <qense> so we agree that the Ubuntu Bug Control team shouold get bug permissions for the ubuntu-translations project?
[16:23] <dpm> +1
[16:24] <micahg> +1
[16:24] <qense> +1 from me too
[16:24] <micahg> feels weird having a meeting w/out bdmurray
[16:24] <thekorn> +1 if we write down something about the process in our wiki
[16:25] <qense> I'll add a section to Bugs/HowToTriage, would that be sufficient?
[16:25] <thekorn> YES, great
[16:25] <qense> btw, who will write down the minutes of this meeting?
[16:25] <dpm> qense, I'll subscribe to that page in order to add a link to it on the Translations/HandlingBugs page when finished
[16:26] <xteejx> bug 509376, I really don't think this should have been Invalidated, it is clearly a bug if jockey is blacklisting the nvidia driver!!
[16:26] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 509376 in jockey "[lucid] nvidia-current failed to initialise" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/509376
[16:26] <qense> dpm: okay
[16:26] <dpm> if no one else volunteers, I can take care of the minutes
[16:27] <dpm> re: the adopt-apackage/upstream proposal, I think for now what we can do is to simply use the ubuntu-translations project as a target for regular hugdays like the one some weeks ago
[16:28] <qense> okay, that means this topic is done now?
[16:28] <dpm> just one sec
[16:29] <dpm> the translations team is still learning on bug triaging, etc and I've got one quick question:
[16:29] <dpm> We discussed the use of tags for translation bugs in the past
[16:29] <dpm> We've made a list here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/HandlingBugs#Tagging
[16:29] <dpm> Do you guys havve got any feedback, tips, advice on bug tagging?
[16:30] <qense> xteejx: it could have to do with the transition to the new proprietary nvidia drivers packaging layout, in that case users upgrading in a later stage wouldn't suffer from this bug and Invalid would be the right state.
[16:31] <xteejx> qense: Ahh ok, thanks for clearing that up :)
[16:32] <hggdh> tagging is still very much ad hoc. It might help for you to prefix the translation tags with -- say -- 'tr', or 'trans' -- so that there will be less chance of conflicts
[16:32] <qense> dpm: are you aware of the difference between official and unofficial tags? I'm not sure how tags behave when the bug has tasks for multiple projects, though/
[16:32] <dpm> qense, I've heard about them, but I'm not too clear on the distiction right now
[16:33] <qense> Official tasks get listed on the bugs overview page
[16:33] <dpm> although in the past there has been discussions on making the i18n or l10n tags official to give more relevance to translations-related bugs
[16:34] <qense> You could use tags to help the different i10n teams
[16:34] <hggdh> some tags are used "everywhere" -- like the regression* ones; these are the official ones. Others are specific to a project/usage, and completely out of control
[16:35] <dpm> how can we "apply" for translation-related tags to be made official for the ubuntu project?
[16:35] <dpm> (when relevant)
[16:36] <qense> not sure, bug control administrators maybe?
[16:36] <dpm> I'll look into it, then, thanks
[16:37] <hggdh> pretty much by adding your tags to the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags page (since you are dealing with bugs also)
[16:37] <dpm> thanks a lot for the advice and the feedback
[16:37] <hggdh> and sending out an email to bugsquad/control explaining why you are adding them there
[16:38] <dpm> ok, thanks
[16:38] <dpm> otherwise, I think that's all from my part on translations, unless adiroiban or ArneGoetje have something else to add
[16:38] <micahg> hggdh: does the ubuntu bug project admin have to mark them in LP in any wya?
[16:39] <hggdh> micahg: to my knowledge, no -- tags are still ad hoc. But I do not know the internals of LP/Malone
[16:40] <qense> hggdh: iirc there is a list of official tags on bugs.launchpad.net/{project}
[16:42] <qense> was that a split?
=== Pici` is now known as Pici
[16:43] <xteejx> yeah
[16:44] <hggdh> qense: I am not sure these are real official tags, or tags found in bugs. For example, Evolution lists a 'junk' tag...
[16:45] <qense> hggdh: found it! http://blog.launchpad.net/cool-new-stuff/official-bug-tags
[16:46] <hggdh> cool, qense, thank you
[16:46] <dpm> ah, great, thanks
[16:48] <qense> one question: should people open a ubuntu-translations task for all translation bugs, or only after they've been marked as triaged?
[16:49] <qense> I'd go for right away since the u-trans project was mostly meant for keeping track of all translation bgs, what would you say?
[16:50] <dpm> qense, yes, I think so. Furthermore, translation bugs are easily identifyable. What I mean is that when you spot one it is generally quite obvious that it is a translations-related bug
[16:50] <dpm> so it makes sense to file it against u-t straight away
[16:51] <qense> yes
[16:57] <qense> It's now almost 17.00 UTC. What shall we do with the points that weren't discussed. Micahg, you added most of them, what do you think?
[16:57] <micahg> heh, wait till next month :)
[16:57] <micahg> translations was the big ting
[16:57] <micahg> thing
[16:57] <dpm> yeah, the meeting was quite productive from my pov anyway
[16:57] <dpm> very
[16:58] <qense> good
[16:58] <micahg> so, dpm if you can add ubuntu-bugcontrol as a member of the translations-coordinators team, that allow us to set the triaged status
[16:58] <qense> dpm, if you or someone else from your team has got any questions about the bug triaging process, please feel free to mail the bugsquad maillist or come to this IRC channel
[16:59] <micahg> dpm: maybe setting us as bug supervisor would be enough?  idk if that would remove your teams abilities though
[16:59] <qense> You could make a separate Ubuntu Translations Bug Supervisor team and make both teams a member of it,
[17:00] <qense> That way you wouldn't give away permissions to both teams
[17:00] <micahg> that works too
[17:00] <dpm> micahg, I'll have to look into that, since adding bugcontrol to the team might not be an option (otherwise everyone can modify LP translation templates) - qsense's suggestion seems like the best option to me
[17:01] <micahg> dpm: k
[17:01] <hggdh> dpm: the translation team -- is it a restricted tem?
[17:01] <hggdh> team
[17:01] <micahg> yep
[17:01] <hggdh> so why not just add it to bug-control?
[17:01]  * micahg checked earlier

BugSquad/Meeting/Minutes/2010-01-19 (last edited 2010-01-19 18:51:13 by 168)