Ubuntu Wiki

   1 [03:00] <pleia2> anyway, meeting time :)
   2 [03:01] <pleia2> agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/10November21
   3 [03:01] <pleia2> who all is here for the meeting?
   4 [03:01] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: gotcha
   5 [03:01] <jledbetter> o/
   6 [03:02]  * dragon raises his hand
   7 [03:02] <jtatum> \o
   8 [03:02] <jdeslip> HERE
   9 [03:02] <akk> o/
  10 [03:02] <nuboon2age_> o/
  11 [03:02] <philipballew> here
  12 [03:02] <pleia2> ok, let's start off with any announcements of upcoming events
  13 [03:03] <pleia2> http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-california just shows a couple ubuntu hours in lake forest
  14 [03:03] <pleia2> presumably we'll be adding the regularly occurring ones for december, observing holidays, as the weeks go on
  15 [03:03] <pleia2> anything else announcement-wise?
  16 [03:04] <nuboon2age_> i've talked to people about doing something like an Ubuntu hour in Santa Cruz but haven't settled on a time/place yet
  17 [03:04] <MarkDude> Penguin Hour
  18 [03:04] <nuboon2age_> or Lindependence Hour or something like that
  19 [03:04] <jdeslip> nuboon2age: involving Larry/
  20 [03:04] <jdeslip> ?
  21 [03:05] <nuboon2age_> talked to Karsten, lcafiero in particular
  22 [03:05] <pleia2> great, so you'll update the resources with announcements once you have the details nailed down
  23 [03:05] <nuboon2age_> i've also been seeking a location in Palo Alto or Menlo Park, but haven't settled on a location yet
  24 [03:06] <nuboon2age_> yes'm pleia2
  25 [03:06] <pleia2> ok, we can probably discuss ubuntu hours further during that portion of the agenda :)
  26 [03:06] <pleia2> Agenda item 1: Discuss hosting for Ubuntu California Website: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Website
  27 [03:07] <pleia2> I posted to the list earlier this week and unfortunately there wasn't any discussion aside from jtatum's reply (thanks jtatum!)
  28 [03:07] <jdeslip> If I remember last meeting, we were going to vote on hosting options this meeting.  Do we want to put that off for further discussion?
  29 [03:07] <nuboon2age_> on Dec 4th there's a peace Fair/holiday fair in San Jose where i'll be with Cameron S, repping for FLOSS
  30 [03:08] <akk> I thought jtatum's comments made sense and didn't have anything useful to add.
  31 [03:08] <jdeslip> It seems to me it basically comes down to a choice between pleia2's linode option and aaditya's appengine option.  Is taht fair?
  32 [03:08] <jtatum> jdeslip, i don't think we have to decide.. can do both
  33 [03:09] <pleia2> jdeslip: yeah
  34 [03:09] <pleia2> I spoke with jtatum briefly at the mt view ubuntu hour and we thought it might be acceptable to go with the linode for the basic site and then if we wanted to build some spiffy applications or other dynamic content (aside from planet and blog) we can go with appengine
  35 [03:09] <akk> It's confusing to have multiple sites, though ... we already sort of have that confusion.
  36 [03:09] <dragon> jtatum: what'd be the setup if we do both?
  37 [03:09] <akk> Though yeah, using another site for fancy appengine stuff would be okay, just don't have multiple user-visible landing pages.
  38 [03:09] <jtatum> main site links to app engine apps… i think that's the general setup of appengine
  39 [03:10] <eps> It looks like my suggestion to look at SFCCP fell through the cracks.
  40 [03:10] <pleia2> essentially the ubuntu-california.org site will be a landing page for all resources (wiki, forums, mailing list, etc)
  41 [03:10] <dragon> jtatum: that way we'd end up having two websites, unless we do iframes.
  42 [03:10] <pleia2> eps: we asked you to email us the details so we could add it to the wiki, you never did :(
  43 [03:11] <jledbetter> ohnoiframes
  44 [03:11] <eps> I'm totally swamped and I can't edit the Wiki directly.
  45 [03:11] <pleia2> there were a couple ideas that people didn't follow up with
  46 [03:11] <jtatum> dragon, a lot of sites link to subdomains that you don't think of as two sites… :) ebay, yahoo, amazon… et
  47 [03:11] <jtatum> c
  48 [03:11] <pleia2> eps: unfortunately we need *someone* to get the details for us so we can review it, I don't know anything about this proposal
  49 [03:11] <dragon> jtatum: they do, but we'll have to make sure they share the same look-and-feel.
  50 [03:11] <jtatum> keep the header and footer the same and nobody will think they're different sites
  51 [03:11] <eps> SFCCP - www.sfccp.net - you can read about it on their web site.
  52 [03:12] <eps> There are a number of advantages: (1) you can do pretty much anything you want in terms of software
  53 [03:12] <dragon> jtatum: in that case, why would we even need it in two places?
  54 [03:12] <pleia2> eps: it's not just simple hosting details we need, we need to know who is handling the relationship, administrative options, hardware, etc
  55 [03:12] <eps> (2) you can have as many or as few administrators as you feel appropriate
  56 [03:12] <pleia2> eps: can you reply to the mailing list thread?
  57 [03:13] <jtatum> dragon: just saying we don't have to scrap appengine just because the main domain is hosted somewhere else
  58 [03:13] <eps> (3) you'd be hosting Ubuntu *California* in *California*, not some embarrassing out-of-the-way place
  59 [03:13] <jtatum> eps: linode is in california
  60 [03:13] <jdeslip> so, it appears we are not ready for a vote, eh?
  61 [03:13] <dragon> jtatum: sounds reasonable
  62 [03:13] <eps> pleia2: no, I'm replying here, where the conversation is logged, and everyone gets to see it
  63 [03:13] <pleia2> jdeslip: apparently not :(
  64 [03:13]  * pleia2 sighs
  65 [03:13] <jtatum> surprised at all this discussion when *nobody* replied on the mailing list.
  66 [03:13] <dragon> eps: I'm unable to follow your proposal.
  67 [03:13] <jtatum> s/surprised/disappointed/.
  68 [03:13] <pleia2> jtatum: +1
  69 [03:13] <jledbetter> oh no he didn't
  70 [03:14] <jdeslip> pleia2: how about we start a mailing list thread asking for specific (and detailed recommendations) which we can compile into another voting thread.
  71 [03:14] <MarkDude> eps does have a point
  72 [03:14] <eps> I've previously explained my problem with the mailing list
  73 [03:14] <MarkDude> Is that not one of the intents of logging?
  74 [03:14] <jdeslip> i.e. the only responses to the thread should be complete proposals
  75 [03:14] <MarkDude> So others can see it?
  76 [03:14] <akk> Anyone can see replies on the mailing list.
  77 [03:15] <jdeslip> akk: agreed
  78 [03:15] <pleia2> MarkDude: we've always logged meetings
  79 [03:15] <eps> Well, if you've already made your decision, and you're just recruiting people to ratify it, we can do that.
  80 [03:15] <nuboon2age_> btw, here's the announcement for the Peace Fair where Cameron Spitzer and i'l be repping for FLOSS on Dec 4th,  http://www.sanjosepeace.org/article.php/20101108154316816
  81 [03:15] <akk> That's a far more public way, because everyone can participate, not just people who are awake and logged in right now.
  82 [03:15] <jdeslip> eps: No decision has been made - I quite frankly don't know what I'd vote for.
  83 [03:15] <pleia2> eps: I appreciate your option, but we've been discussing this for months, 2 weeks ago we decided to get final proposals on the wiki, you made no effort since then to get us the details (not on irc, mailing list or wiki)
  84 [03:16] <pleia2> we need to move forward at soem point
  85 [03:16] <eps> The way I see it, there's no clear choice. Every option has advantages and disadvantages.
  86 [03:16] <pleia2> until now, when we all thought our options were settled :(
  87 [03:16] <eps> Then get the Wiki fixed. There's been a bug filed against moinmoin for longer than that.
  88 [03:17] <pleia2> you could have emailed me (as I requested at the last meeting), or discussed it here
  89 [03:17] <dragon> As far as I understand, we need to collect all the proposals on the wiki, not the mailing list. Why is mailing list in question at this point?
  90 [03:17] <jdeslip> pleia2: eps: agreed we need to move forward.  I think taking complete/final proposals in a mailing list thread and then voting on them by December 4th would be a good way forward.
  91 [03:17] <eps> I *am* discussing it here.
  92 [03:17] <pleia2> eps: now, after we closed the time for propsals a week ago
  93 [03:17] <pleia2> dragon: we're trying to get feedback from folks on the mailing list too
  94 [03:18] <eps> I've brought this up before; the logs will back me up. I'm not springing anything on you at the last minute.
  95 [03:18] <nuboon2age_> i have to say that *does* look like a good proposal. as are the others
  96 [03:18] <pleia2> jdeslip: ok, so I'll send a pretty much identical post to the list as my one last week, with eps' additional option?
  97 [03:18] <pleia2> eps' proposal is a colo, so we also need hardware details
  98 [03:18] <jdeslip> eps: discussing it on this channel does not constitute have submited a proposal
  99 [03:18] <dragon> pleia2: yes, but that's not required as long as the proposal is documented in one place and is easy enough to refer to and follow, correct?
 100 [03:18] <pleia2> and who is donating it
 101 [03:19] <eps> The main downside with my proposal is non-zero cost. If there's something you can get for free, you don't have to think about how you're going to pay for it.
 102 [03:19] <jdeslip> pleia2: I think a similar email with the final/complete proposals from the wiki page would be good.  Making it clear that we are now seeking a vote.
 103 [03:19] <pleia2> eps: think can you get that info this week?
 104 [03:19] <eps> I have *zero* time to devote this week.
 105 [03:19] <pleia2> jdeslip: ok
 106 [03:19] <jdeslip> (as oppossed to further discussion)
 107 [03:20] <pleia2> eps: how long do we need to wait for your full proposal?
 108 [03:20]  * MarkDude is aware that logging has always happened for meetings. 
 109 [03:20] <pleia2> I don't mind waiting another week, but I'd really like to move forward on this soon
 110 [03:20] <pleia2> as the plan was to decide tonight
 111 [03:21] <jledbetter> pleia2, +1
 112 [03:21] <eps> All I can do right now is make you aware this option exists. Everything you need to know is already online. You may need to solicit a hardware donation, which I can't coordinate.
 113 [03:21] <pleia2> ok, well for each proposal we need someone who can take ownership of coordinating it
 114 [03:21] <eps> Anyone can follow up on this.
 115 [03:22] <jdeslip> eps: unfortunately that isn't really good enough :/  - if you (or anyone else) wants an option considered, you have to champion it
 116 [03:22] <jledbetter> pleia2, And if someone can't then maybe that means we can vote tonight?
 117 [03:22] <akk> If we're not going to have another proposal, does that mean we can vote tonight?
 118 [03:22]  * akk high-fives jledbetter 
 119 [03:22] <jledbetter> boo yeah ;)
 120 [03:22] <pleia2> +1
 121 [03:22] <MarkDude> +1
 122 [03:23] <jdeslip> I think a decision tonight would be fine, considering that nobody (except jtatum) had anything to add on the previous mailing list thread
 123 [03:23] <pleia2> regarding using linode AND appengine - it would be similar to ubuntu-california.org planet.ubuntu-california.org gallery.ubuntu-california.org ... or for a live example, see: ubuntupennsylvania.org
 124 [03:23] <dragon> I vote +1 for voting tonight if we don't have any more proposals to follow.
 125 [03:23] <eps> I think you need to decide what your requirements really are before attempting to evaluate solutions. Otherwise, you're going to get stuck trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.
 126 [03:23] <pleia2> I figure whatever appengine site we create it would be reallyneatthing.ubuntu-california.org
 127 [03:24] <dragon> pleia2: such as www.ubuntu-california.org
 128 [03:24] <jtatum> we can come up with a billion reasons to torpedo this OR we can do this NOW and get something online. i vote linode
 129 [03:24] <pleia2> we already have california.ubuntuforums.org wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-california.. etc
 130 [03:24] <dragon> s/$/?/
 131 [03:24] <jdeslip> eps: I take it you do not have plans to submit a complete/final proposal this week?  If not let's vote
 132 [03:24] <pleia2> dragon: I think we need ubuntu-california.org and www.ubuntu-california.org to be the same site
 133 [03:25] <jdeslip> I see three options being championed at this point with complete info on the wiki:
 134 [03:25] <dragon> pleia2: agreed
 135 [03:25] <nuboon2age_> i'd be okay with the idea of using linode for basic stuff and appengine for spiffy stuff
 136 [03:25] <jdeslip> 1> 1. linode
 137 [03:25] <jdeslip> 2. app-engine
 138 [03:25] <jdeslip> 3. the linode-app-engine mix
 139 [03:25] <pleia2> we should put canonical in the voting pot
 140 [03:25] <jdeslip> 4. canonical
 141 [03:25] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: +1
 142 [03:25] <MarkDude> I wont be able to vote for the nogo on logging indexing for this channel- I need to run an errand. Please include my vote, I dont like the indexing :)
 143 [03:26] <akk> Clarification: if we vote for linode that somehow precludes ever mixing in app-engine?
 144 [03:26] <akk> I'm not sure what the difference is between 1 and 3.
 145 [03:26] <pleia2> akk: no
 146 [03:26] <nuboon2age_> ty MarkDude, i caught that.
 147 [03:26]  * MarkDude might be aback in time :)
 148 [03:26] <MarkDude> Resistance is not futile :D
 149 [03:27] <pleia2> akk: I think voting 3 means from the get-go we consider app-engine in every decision as far as our applications
 150 [03:27] <pleia2> so if we want a blog, we look at wordpress on linode and appengine options
 151 [03:27] <pleia2> I'd really like an option other than gallery2 for photos, if appengine could do something cool with photos I'd love it
 152 [03:28] <eps> I'm confused about something: the description of Option 3 says "free application hosting" while the Google App Engine site says $8-$1000/mo.
 153 [03:28] <MarkDude> app engine +1. We are geeks, lets just not go for the simplest idea to implement
 154 [03:28] <pleia2> eps: the 8-1000 is business hosting, we're using the free options
 155 [03:28] <akk> Whereas if we vote for 1, we look at what runs on wordpress unless someone comes forward and says "Hey, there's this great appengine solution that you should consider too"?
 156 [03:28] <akk> s/runs on wordpress/runs on linode/
 157 [03:28] <pleia2> akk: yeah, I guess
 158 [03:28] <dragon> I vote for 2. AppEngine
 159 [03:29] <pleia2> we will do a formal vote in a few minutes
 160 [03:29] <pleia2> MarkDude: we're not all geeks, that's part of the great thing about the ubuntu community :) and we use ubuntu, so shouldn't we host on a server that runs ubuntu?
 161 [03:29] <dragon> pleia2: AppEngine runs on Ubuntu ;)
 162 [03:30] <pleia2> ah, I didn't realize they released details like that
 163 [03:30] <MarkDude> Well lets have an AOL style site then :)
 164 [03:30] <MarkDude> Im just saying shiny is good for this particualr instance
 165 [03:30] <pleia2> akk: is that slightly more clear?
 166 [03:30] <jdeslip> Ok again:
 167 [03:31] <jdeslip> 1. Linode - emphasis on wordpress / gallery2 apps
 168 [03:31] <dragon> pleia2: they normally don't, but one of the officials ended up talking about it in a public meeting.
 169 [03:31] <jdeslip> 2. Appengine hosting and apps
 170 [03:31] <MarkDude> From what has been outlined the content wot be a blog, so eyecandy to attract people- like compiz is good
 171 [03:31] <jdeslip> 3. Linode - but emphasis on appengine apps
 172 [03:31] <jdeslip> 4. Canonoical
 173 [03:31] <MarkDude> writing in fire is not useful, but it attracts people nonetheless :)
 174 [03:32] <dragon> pleia2: I'd also like to propose the use of voting bot in this loco. I've seen it in action in other Ubuntu channels, though I'm unaware about its downsides.
 175 [03:32] <pleia2> MarkDude: thanks, can you add design ideas at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/Website/Design so we can keep track of your ideas?
 176 [03:32] <pleia2> dragon: we can request mootbot be added here for meetings (I tend to like it)
 177 [03:32] <pleia2> it does voting, as well as basic meeting minutes
 178 [03:32] <dragon> +1 for having mootbot in -us-ca
 179 [03:33] <nuboon2age_> +1
 180 [03:33] <pleia2> any objections to moving forward with voting on hosting?
 181 [03:33] <jdeslip> nope - lets do it
 182 [03:33] <nuboon2age_> none here
 183 [03:33]  * dragon grabs the buzzer and prepares to vote
 184 [03:33] <jdeslip> I'm tallying
 185 [03:33] <pleia2> ok
 186 [03:33] <pleia2> 1. Linode - emphasis on wordpress / gallery2 apps
 187 [03:33] <pleia2> +1
 188 [03:33] <jtatum> +1
 189 [03:34] <akk> +1
 190 [03:34] <pleia2> (if you miss the option because you weren't paying attention, it's ok, you can nudge jdeslip to add you to whatever option)
 191 [03:34] <dragon> sorry for the interruption, but wouldn't it be easier to let people type 1, 2, 3, or 4 instead of doing +1 to each option? Or are we allowing voting for more than one option?
 192 [03:34] <nuboon2age_> if i could vote twice i'd vote for both #1 and #2 (and am fine with #3 also)
 193 [03:35] <pleia2> dragon: I'd say we can vote for more than one option
 194 [03:35] <pleia2> 2. Appengine hosting and apps
 195 [03:35] <eps> +1
 196 [03:35] <dragon> nuboon2age, isn't 3 a mix of 1 and 2? ;)
 197 [03:35] <nuboon2age_> yes dragon. :-)
 198 [03:35] <nuboon2age_> so mine would be +1 to #1 and +1 to #2
 199 [03:36] <pleia2> dragon: fwiw, voting with mootbot is done the way I'm doing it, so getting people used to this method is probably good :)
 200 [03:36] <dragon> ah gotcha
 201 [03:36] <jdeslip> (so yes, you can vote twice)
 202 [03:36] <pleia2> can everyone vote with +1 to make it easy for jdeslip to count? anymore for for option 2?
 203 [03:37] <jdeslip> so far we have 1 with 4 votes and 2 with 2 votes
 204 [03:37] <dragon> +1
 205 [03:37] <pleia2> 3. Linode - but emphasis on appengine apps
 206 [03:37] <jdeslip> (and again you can vote more than once - so if you voted for 2, you may consider voting here again)
 207 [03:37] <jdeslip> +1
 208 [03:38] <nuboon2age_> +1
 209 [03:38] <pleia2> +1
 210 [03:38] <dragon> +0.8
 211 [03:38] <jdeslip> LOL
 212 [03:38] <jtatum> +1
 213 [03:39] <pleia2> 4. Canonoical
 214 [03:39] <pleia2> -1
 215 [03:39] <pleia2> hehe
 216 [03:39] <pleia2> (sorry, I host some stuff there already and it's painful)
 217 [03:39] <akk> -1
 218 [03:39] <dragon> I didn't realize we could do -1 as well.
 219 [03:39] <pleia2> dragon: well, not really
 220 [03:39] <dragon> so it's technically +0
 221 [03:39]  * eps will happily -1 #1
 222 [03:39] <jdeslip> (I am not counting negative votes)
 223 [03:40] <pleia2> dragon: yeah
 224 [03:40] <dragon> eps: or +1 everything else
 225 [03:40] <eps> dragon: nope
 226 [03:41] <pleia2> #endvote
 227 [03:41] <jdeslip> So, I counted 4 votes for #1, 3 votes for #2 and 4.8 votes for #3
 228 [03:41] <pleia2> ok jdeslip, what's the verdict?
 229 [03:41] <pleia2> ok, cool
 230 [03:41] <dragon> One moment, please.
 231 [03:41] <dragon> MarkDude said he wanted to vote for AppEngine, but then he left.
 232 [03:42] <pleia2> ok, so 4, 4, 4.8
 233 [03:42] <jdeslip> Either way, I think that leaves us #3 winning
 234 [03:42] <nuboon2age_> looks that way.  where's the .8 from btw jdeslip?
 235 [03:42] <dragon> can I take my 0.8 back? ;)
 236 [03:42] <pleia2> Agenda item 2: Next steps for the California site
 237 [03:42] <pleia2> I think we need to put a team together to work on this
 238 [03:42] <dragon> Just kidding. Since it's a tie breaker, I'm fine with #3.
 239 [03:43] <pleia2> since dragon and I put forward proposals, I think we're both shoe-ins
 240 [03:43] <dragon> \o/
 241 [03:43] <jdeslip> dragon: Thank you.
 242 [03:43] <jdeslip> pleia2: agreed
 243 [03:44] <pleia2> the team will need to sort out administrative access and discuss decisions to present to the team
 244 [03:44] <eps> The next step is to take our logo, place a hard hat on the bear, and caption it "Under Construction"
 245 [03:44] <jtatum> i would like to join the team.
 246 [03:44] <jdeslip> Let's have pleia2 set something basic up on linode and then take app ideas requests and see how the can solved in app-engine
 247 [03:45] <jledbetter> eps, Joke, right?
 248 [03:45] <pleia2> eps, jdeslip +1 (although, under construction is a bit 1998 :))
 249 [03:45] <eps> jledbetter: Of course. "That's so 90's."
 250 [03:45] <jledbetter> whew
 251 [03:45] <pleia2> I'll toss something basic up that we can review
 252 [03:45] <pleia2> we also need to decide which domain to use
 253 [03:45] <jledbetter> I second jtatum's nomination
 254 [03:45] <akk> All sites are always under construction. That should be a given.
 255 [03:45] <nuboon2age_> eps: btw, ty for bringing up the other possibility, now that you've made me aware of it i may take advantage of it for other things.
 256 [03:46] <jdeslip> I.e. once the basic structure is in place, the interested folks can get together and see what apps (app-engine and elsewise) will solve the job best
 257 [03:46] <pleia2> jtatum: welcome to the team :)
 258 [03:46] <pleia2> jdeslip: sounds good
 259 [03:47] <jdeslip> shall we move on.  I posted agenda item 3, but would like to defer it in order to save time.
 260 [03:47] <pleia2> thanks jdeslip
 261 [03:47] <pleia2> should we talk about the domain name at all?
 262 [03:47] <nuboon2age_> jdeslip: which one is #3?
 263 [03:47] <jdeslip> I will talk to pleia2, nuboon2age privately to learn about planning a good Ubuntu Hour
 264 [03:47] <pleia2> our options: ubuntu-us-ca.org ubuntu-california.org ubuntucalifornia.org
 265 [03:48] <pleia2> -us-ca is a bit unusual, but teams throughout the country are kinda split on dash or no dash
 266 [03:48] <pleia2> ubuntu-florida.org, ubuntupennsylvania.org
 267 [03:48] <jdeslip> nuboon2age: it is the Ubuntu-Hour one.  I wanted to learn more about planning one in the East Bay, but I'll chat with you privately about that.
 268 [03:48] <nuboon2age_> oh, even if we put it later i think #3 is valuable jdeslip
 269 [03:48] <dragon> Once we have a design in place, I can attempt to replicate it on AppEngine and create a code repository for it. Any objections keeping it FOSS?
 270 [03:48] <eps> I like ubuntu-california.org with the others redirecting appropriately.
 271 [03:48] <pleia2> eps: me too
 272 [03:48] <jdeslip> pleia2: can't we use all of them?
 273 [03:49] <pleia2> jdeslip: we need an official one to stick on posters and make sure never expires
 274 [03:49] <jdeslip> eps: +1
 275 [03:49] <pleia2> erichammond also regged net/com for each (grantbow did -us-ca.org)
 276 [03:49] <jdeslip> pleia2: then I personally prefer ubuntu-california
 277 [03:49] <akk> ubuntu-california.org looks prettier as long as we also have ubuntucalifornia.org redirecting.
 278 [03:49] <akk> (non-geeks sometimes get confused by hyphens in urls)
 279 [03:49] <jdeslip> akk: +1
 280 [03:49] <pleia2> yeah, currently all the domains redirect to our wiki
 281 [03:49] <nuboon2age_> ubuntu-california.org looks good to me
 282 [03:50] <jledbetter> akk +1
 283 [03:50] <pleia2> ok, sounds like we go with ubuntu-california.org with everything redirecting to it
 284 [03:50] <jdeslip> Any desenters?
 285 [03:50] <eps> The closes we can come to "never" is a ten-year registration. This should be less expensive than annual renewal.
 286 [03:50] <dragon> we're talking "ubuntu dash california dot org" vs "ubuntu california dot org". I vote for former being used and latter being redirected to former.
 287 [03:50] <dragon> pleia2: +1
 288 [03:50] <eps> s/closes/closest
 289 [03:50] <jledbetter> hyphens in urls? icky
 290 [03:51] <jdeslip> It seems unanimous
 291 [03:51] <pleia2> eps: I meant that we're diligent about keeping it renewed, not a 100 year renewal :)
 292 [03:51] <philipballew> people could easily get confused with a hyphen
 293 [03:51] <pleia2> yeah, so if they type in ubuntucalifornia.org it'll work too
 294 [03:51] <pleia2> but we'll put the one with the dash in our stuff so it's easy to read
 295 [03:52] <pleia2> I'll follow-up with erichammond regarding DNS and get the basics rolling on the linode
 296 [03:52] <jdeslip> great
 297 [03:53] <pleia2> ok, skipping jdeslip's agenda item
 298 [03:53] <jledbetter> doesn't hurt to forward and analytics can be set up to handle it as one
 299 [03:53] <pleia2> Agenda item 4: Discuss blocking of indexing of irc log
 300 [03:53] <dragon> I've registered ubuntu-california.appspot.com. Adding pleia2 and jdeslip as admins/owners now.
 301 [03:53] <pleia2> thanks dragon
 302 [03:53] <jdeslip> sounds good dragon
 303 [03:54] <nuboon2age_> okay, so it's my sense that many have spoken out in favor of blocking indexing and no one really strongly against, so i'm just wondering how far along we are with it and when we'll get it done?
 304 [03:54] <pleia2> nuboon2age_: I think we need someone to take this to the irc-council
 305 [03:54] <jledbetter> I thought we just needed to get robots.txt updated
 306 [03:54] <eps> Is there any precedent for this?
 307 [03:54] <pleia2> unfortunately we don't control indexing on irclogs.ubuntu.com directly
 308 [03:54] <pleia2> eps: nope
 309 [03:54] <jdeslip> So to summarize this issue: the LoCo council has instigated the logging and the mechanism.  This is NOT something either our team or the leadership can vote on.
 310 [03:54] <pleia2> currently everything on irclogs.ubuntu.com is available for indexing, a team has never requested that it not
 311 [03:55] <nuboon2age_> has anyone brought this up with the irc-council yet?
 312 [03:55] <pleia2> nuboon2age_: not that I'm aware of
 313 [03:55] <jdeslip> nuboon2age_: not in any official way at least
 314 [03:55] <pleia2> I know they discussed the indexing issue at UDS and are keen to have options, but I don't know where it landed or who is involved with the discussion
 315 [03:55] <nuboon2age_> personally i'm not against logging, just against indexing
 316 [03:55] <pleia2> nuboon2age_: would you be willing to take up the teams concerns with the ircc ?
 317 [03:56] <akk> It would be good to find out whether there will ever be any chance of public discussion.
 318 [03:56] <eps> No matter what you do, someone is going to republish excerpts out-of-context.
 319 [03:56] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: yes, though i'm at a bit of a disadvantage in that i'm an ubuntu newbie
 320 [03:56] <jdeslip> I am personally for both logging and indexing... (I believe all public info should be indexable)
 321 [03:57] <jdeslip> but, this is not a personal or even team issue.  This is an official Ubuntu channel; so it is an Ubuntu issue.  The proper way to propose change here is through the LoCo council.
 322 [03:57] <nuboon2age_> okay i didn't realize that was your PoV jdeslip, good to know
 323 [03:57] <dragon> I'm neutral at this point, and need to hear more about the issue before I make up my mind. What are the advantages of not having the channel indexed?
 324 [03:58] <nuboon2age_> well i'm not trying to set the policy for all of Ubuntu LoCos, just ours jdeslip
 325 [03:58] <pleia2> so perhaps once we learn whether it's possible, we discuss it here further?
 326 [03:58] <pleia2> it would be great to see an option for each channel to turn on/off indexing, as the team decides
 327 [03:58] <nuboon2age_> dragon: i've personally experienced cyberstalking, and googling for any/all info on a person is the easiest way to cyberstalk
 328 [03:59] <dragon> pleia2: +1 for letting teams control indexing decisions
 329 [03:59] <eps> The TOS explicitly states that all logs will be indexed.
 330 [03:59] <akk> dragon: And you can't chat casually if you're self-editing knowing every word will still be findable 50 years from now.
 331 [03:59] <nuboon2age_> i have colleagues that have experienced severe, over the top cyber- and then in-person stalking
 332 [03:59] <pleia2> eps: right, this is a policy we're looking to change, so we need to take it to the folks who control it
 333 [03:59] <jdeslip> pleia2: I think it would be good to have our team decide as well.
 334 [04:01] <pleia2> nuboon2age_: since you're admittedly new to ubuntu, would you like me to talk to jussi and see what we need to do to get the policy adjusted? (I don't have time to champion this issue, but getting you on the right track might help)
 335 [04:01] <nuboon2age_> nhaines: i understood your previous chats as being in favor of blocking indexing.  is this correct?
 336 [04:01] <jbermudes> Our LoCo should vote to determine if this is an issue that concerns the LoCo and that we would like to start a discussion with the IRC/LoCo council as well as other LoCos. This is an important test of what degree of autonomy LoCos have.
 337 [04:01] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: yes that'd be great
 338 [04:03] <pleia2> jbermudes: based on discussion over the past month, I think people dislike logging, but hate indexing more, we can vote but I think it'd just be a formality
 339 [04:03] <jdeslip> jbermudes: We could vote, but we couldn't do anything about the vote.  Logging/indexing is currently set up through the council, so we need someone interested in the change to propose it.
 340 [04:04] <dragon> jdeslip: before we propose it, we need to be sure that we're going to turn it off as soon as we have control of it.
 341 [04:04] <nuboon2age_> jdeslip: as above i'm okay with speaking up for it, but would like some help from more experienced Ubunteros
 342 [04:04] <dragon> Otherwise the effort wouldn't be a productive one.
 343 [04:05] <dragon> I'd vote for logging and against indexing.
 344 [04:05] <jdeslip> Does anyone other than me think indexing is actually a good idea?  (I.e. for the potential help google gives people searching for resolutions to issues and searching past discussions?)
 345 [04:05] <akk> It would be a win even if we could just get them to open it to public discussion. There might be other LoCos who care as well.
 346 [04:06] <nuboon2age_> i can see those points, but it is out weighed for me by the reality of violation of privacy jdeslip
 347 [04:06] <pleia2> akk: agreed, I'll talk to jussi about this point too
 348 [04:06] <jdeslip> I think pleia2 is right, and group members are generally against indexing, so no vote is really necessary, if I am the only pro-indexing fool :)
 349 [04:06] <crashsystems> I like the idea of non-indexed time limited logs behind a captcha. Perhaps three months or something like that.
 350 [04:06] <akk> jdeslip: I've had google direct me to IRC logs when I was trying to solve a tech issue, and it's always been a disaster -- 1000 lnes of which the relevant ones are scattered across 200 lines.
 351 [04:07] <pleia2> crashsystems: yeah, logs which are vaguely restricted should certainly be part of this discussion
 352 [04:07] <akk> jdeslip: Now if I see an IRC log in that sort of search, I don't even bother looking.
 353 [04:07] <pleia2> I think we're going to move toward wrapping this meeting up
 354 [04:07] <dragon> akk: +1
 355 [04:07] <pleia2> I'll talk with jussi and touch base with nuboon2age_ and others who are interested, and we take things from there?
 356 [04:07] <jtatum> jdeslip: i think indexing is inevitable, and that the logs aren't terribly useful unless they can be searched… so i guess that makes me for it
 357 [04:07] <jdeslip> akk: but that is a problem for the search engines algorithm... not for us to solve it for it them I think
 358 [04:07] <nuboon2age_> jdeslip: even if its 'after' the meeting i'd be happy to discuss #3
 359 [04:08] <pleia2> I'd like to see this be a public discussion too, so hopefully we'll get that :)
 360 [04:08] <akk> Sounds good, pleia2! (And I'm interested too, and happy to participate in a discussion.)
 361 [04:08] <jdeslip> nuboon2age_: thanks, I have to run pretty soon though.  Perhaps I'll catch you on here tomorrow?
 362 [04:08] <pleia2> ok, anything else to add before we wrap up the meeting?
 363 [04:09] <nuboon2age_> okay or whenever jdeslip
 364 [04:09] <nuboon2age_> pleia2: so hopefully y'all would guide me in how to proceed
 365 [04:09] <jdeslip> I'd like add a thank you to pleia2 for running the meeting!
 366 [04:09] <pleia2> thanks for coming everyone :)
 367 [04:10] <jledbetter> Thank you pleia2 :)
 368 [04:10] <nuboon2age_> ty pleia2
 369 [04:10] <jtatum> +1
 370 [04:18] <jdeslip> OK, good night all.  Happy short work week!