10September19
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Sunday, September 19th, 2010, 7:00pm (1900) PDT
Original Agenda
- Announcements
- Jaunty EOL is next month
Ubuntu LoCo Council would like to talk with the California LoCo It has come to light there are some issues within the team with its members and how things are done, we'd like to help with things and plan how we can move forward.
Log
19:01 < Flannel> Welcome everyone to tonight's meeting. We've got a full agenda, so we'll go ahead and get started. Hope you all are having a wonderful International Talk Like a Pirate Day. 19:01 < FashionGirl> grantbow: hi 19:01 < Flannel> Our agenda for the evening can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/10September19 19:01 < YokoZar> aye 19:02 < Flannel> and currently consists of: announcements, global jam recaps, solano stroll recap, Ubuntu LoCo Council discussion, and Maverick release planning. 19:03 < Flannel> If anyone has anything to add, feel free to do so now, or in-between topics, we'll squeeze it in if we can. 19:03 < dragon> hi grantbow, FashionGirl 19:04 < FashionGirl> Hello to you 19:04 < Flannel> I know we have some new faces in the channel, but I'm not sure if they're active for the meeting. If anyone is new, and would like to introduce theselves to the team, you're welcome to. 19:05 < itnet7> Well, hey there, I'm itnet Chris Crisafulli/Loco Council 19:05 < itnet7> itnet7 that is :-P 19:05 < grantbow> welcome, matey 19:05 < dragon> Welcome itnet7! 19:05 < sn9> we met him at oscon last year 19:05 < itnet7> some other members should be along anytime now 19:06 < itnet7> yes! How are you sn9 grantbow dragon ! 19:07 < MarkDude> hello FashionGirl 19:07 < Flannel> Welcome itnet7. Anyone else? 19:07 < czajkowski> aloha 19:07 < czajkowski> read it as 3am UTC and I'm UTC +1 19:07 < grantbow> aloha 19:07 < czajkowski> grantbow: hey! 19:07 *** MarkDude is slightly delayed atm 19:08 < Flannel> welcome czajkowski. 19:08 *** jledbetter is delayed as well. 19:09 < erichammond> 'lo, all. I've been off the channel for about a year but am swinging through to see how things are going. 19:09 < nhaines> erichammond: it's good to see you again. :) 19:09 < grantbow> 'lo 19:09 < Flannel> welcome back erichammond 19:09 < paultag> Hey, I'm Paul 19:10 < jledbetter> paultag, Hello Paul 19:10 < paultag> Howdy, jledbetter, nice to see you again :) 19:10 < seidos> hey paultag 19:10 < paultag> Hey there seidos 19:11 < grantbow> wb paultag 19:11 < Flannel> With that, looks like we'll move on to tonight's announcements. 19:11 < Flannel> rww: go ahead 19:12 < rww> Ubuntu 9.04 (Jaunty) goes EOL next month, eighteen months after its release. If you're still using it, you should upgrade soon, and encourage others who are to do so as well. 19:12 < rww> Once it reaches EOL (end of life) status, upgrading gets more complicated, and I'll have Eureka link to the relevant information to that. 19:12 < rww> !eol 19:12 < Eureka> End-Of-Life is the time when security updates and support for an Ubuntu release stop, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases for more information. Looking to upgrade from an EOL release? See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EOLUpgrades 19:13 < eps> Jaunty has been a very, very good release for me. I'm going to miss it. :-( 19:13 < YokoZar> I had someone request Jaunty wine packages just the other week actually 19:14 < YokoZar> he hadn't upgraded because Jaunty was the last to have KDE 3 iirc 19:14 < nhaines> YokoZar: is that possible to do? 19:14 < YokoZar> nhaines: you wouldn't want them there have been too many changes in the dependencies anyways 19:14 < Flannel> There's apparently a remix of Lucid with KDE3, no idea how stable it is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Kde3/Lucid 19:15 < nhaines> YokoZar: too bad. :) 19:15 < rww> Oh, also, the supported upgrade path for 9.04 is 9.04 -> 9.10 -> 10.04; you can't upgrade directly to 10.04 because 9.04 isn't LTS. 19:15 < rww> and if you need help with upgrading, here (after the meeting) or #ubuntu should be able to walk you through it. 19:16 < rww> Any questions on all that? 19:17 < eps> The question is: do we go to Karmic, which is probably the least disorienting, to Lucid (knowing that it's going to be supported for a while), or Maverick, which is unknown and scary? 19:17 < nhaines> If you've held off upgrading for a year and a half, you might be happier with an LTS release like 10.04. 19:17 < rww> eps: Personally, I'd upgrade to Karmic, sit on it for a couple of months to make sure everything still works, then upgrade to Lucid and stay there. If you're all the way back at Jaunty, you probably don't want to upgrade every 6 months. 19:17 < akk> Right, if you're still on jaunty, then lucid is probably what you want. 19:18 < nhaines> The reason is, it's supported for three years and you can upgrade directly to Ubuntu 12.04 LTS in April 2012. 19:18 < Flannel> eps: You have to go through Karmic to get to Lucid regardless, so if you want to live there for a month or two (or five) that'd be fine 19:19 < eps> I tend to reinstall rather than upgrade. I'm a little worried about grub -> grub2. 19:19 < akk> And I'd go to karmic then lucid one after the other, not wait in between -- why waste time fixing karmic issues when you're not going to stay on karmic? 19:19 < akk> eps: You don't have to go to grub2 to upgrade, I'm happy to say. 19:19 < rww> akk: because if there's some horrible breakage caused by Jaunty -> Karmic, it'd be easier to diagnose if you don't put Karmic -> Lucid on top of that. 19:19 < rww> you have a point, though. 19:19 < Flannel> eps: If you upgrade you'll stick with grub1 19:20 < akk> If it's horrible breakage, it'll show up in an hour or two. But to stay a month on karmic you have to fix a slew of other things that are going to be a waste of time for lucid. 19:20 < Flannel> rww: on the flipside, if there are problems, they may be already solved in Lucid 19:20 < eps> And if I don't, I'm probably going to get grub2 unless I use the alternate installer. I have a dual-boot system where the MBR is sacred. 19:20 < akk> s/have/might have/ 19:21 < akk> Yeah, not sure you can install from the desktop CD and not get grub2. 19:21 < eps> And I'm pretty sure the current setup is cylinder-aligned. 19:21 < akk> Though you can go back to grub1 afterward, supposedly (I'm planning to do that but haven't yet). 19:22 < YokoZar> I'm pretty sure the new installer lets you preserve your existing home directory 19:22 < YokoZar> so reinstalling should be relatively straightforward (with lucid or maverick) 19:22 < nhaines> eps: if the new installer detects 4,096KB sectors, it does not align the partitions to cylinders. 19:22 < eps> I'm planning to go with the "back up [my] data first" strategy. 19:22 < rww> anyways, we can discuss this later, we have a rather full agenda ;P 19:23 < nUboon2Age> i have an announcement whenever its appropriate. 19:24 < rww> Next announcement is that Launchpad expirations happened as planned earlier this month. Neal, Nathan, and I have been watching for people who accidentally expired and then reapplied, but if you've encountered problems, please poke one of us and let us know. 19:24 < Flannel> nUboon2Age: after this one 19:24 < nUboon2Age> Flannel: ty 19:24 < rww> (thanks to a fun Launchpad bug, we aren't emailed when people reapply, but as I said, we're watching out for that) 19:24 < Flannel> If you expired and are re-applying, LP has a bug (https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-registry/+bug/85364) where it won't send emails to the admins, so just ping someone if you haven't been accepted for a day or two. 19:25 < nhaines> The trouble is, Launchpad is not emailing notifications if you've expired from a team and then reapply. We are checking, but please do ping us in email or in channel. :) 19:25 < rww> copycats :( 19:25 < rww> and if you're horribly confused and lost, let one of us know about that, too. LP is confusing to a lot of people, and I'm fine with helping you through it. 19:25 < czajkowski> why can't you just set team members not to expire? 19:25 < czajkowski> like in most locos 19:26 < Flannel> czajkowski: A few months ago we decided that the benefits outweighed the overhead 19:26 < czajkowski> what are the benefits? 19:26 < Flannel> czajkowski: I can dig up the meetings if you'd like to read them over 19:26 < rww> czajkowski: we have a more accurate idea of who, where, and how many active LoCo members we have. 19:26 < czajkowski> just briefly 19:27 < czajkowski> rww: seems rather controling 19:27 < Flannel> czajkowski: In a nutshell: the fact that we get accurate numbers of our interested partiees. They get pinged every once in a while (in case they forget ,etc) 19:27 < Flannel> czajkowski: The exact same reason that Ubuntu members expire 19:27 < Flannel> (and many other teams) 19:27 < czajkowski> you are the first LoCO Team members I know who have this 19:27 < rww> czajkowski: Clicking on a link once a year isn't overly controlling. But, we discussed all this beforehand, so I'll defer to the logs. 19:27 < czajkowski> Flannel: there is a difference from Ubuntu members 19:28 < nhaines> czajkowski: maybe our experiences can help inform other LoCos, then. 19:28 < Flannel> czajkowski: pleia2 from PA said that her team did it, and perusing a few other LoCos, many do as well. 19:28 < czajkowski> it's fine just something to mull over 19:28 < Flannel> czajkowski: We did our homework beforehand, and weighed the options. 19:28 < czajkowski> fine 19:28 < pleia2> Flannel: no, PA members never expire 19:29 < Flannel> pleia2: No? I could swear you said that you used the same method 19:29 < czajkowski> pleia2: morning 19:29 < pleia2> nope 19:29 < Flannel> pleia2: Hmmm, alright. I'll have to go back and see where that came from then. 19:29 < nhaines> nUboon2Age: I think you had an announcment as well? 19:30 < paultag> Flannel, Is this user-renewable? 19:30 < Flannel> paultag: Yes 19:30 < paultag> I don't see a problem with that, that's just like Ubuntu membership 19:30 < nUboon2Age> yes, here goes... 19:30 < Flannel> pleia2: Oh, was it the "initial contact before being approved" that PA does? 19:30 < pleia2> new york has expiring memberships, but I would never have held them up as a good example, they've had membership issues :) 19:30 < paultag> OK, can we move on? :) 19:30 < pleia2> no, that's new york 19:30 < nUboon2Age> On October 9th and 10th there's an event called Code Camp at Foothill College, Los Altos in the Metro San Jose/So Bay Area/Santa Clara Valley/Silicon Valley area. 19:31 < nUboon2Age> Several of us are going to be presenting a session entited "Beginning Ubuntu Gnu/Linux Development" Saturday 5pm, ;-D. We have 12 people indicating 'interest' so far which is pretty good considering we just submitted our session info a few days ago. 19:31 < nUboon2Age> http://www.siliconvalley-codecamp.com/Sessions.aspx?OnlyOne=true&id=547 19:31 < pleia2> and their "initial contact" thing has been a problem for shy folks 19:31 < pleia2> but I tend to agree with paultag that we should move on :) 19:31 < nUboon2Age> The event is free but you need to register ASAP if you're going. 19:31 < nUboon2Age> A listing of all the sessions is at: http://www.siliconvalley-codecamp.com/Sessions.aspx 19:32 < nUboon2Age> Presenters include Jack Deslippe, Aaditya Bhatia (Dragon/aaditya), Mark Terranova (MarkDude) and I (Drew Johnson), with support of OutofJungle, Akkona (akk) and possibly others. 19:32 < jledbetter> Very cool 19:32 < itnet7> Nice! 19:32 < YokoZar> nUboon2Age: hmm maybe I'll go 19:32 < nUboon2Age> oh, yeah Jono is providing support as well 19:33 < nUboon2Age> Please everyone who can make it join us! 19:33 < jledbetter> Definitely will try :) 19:33 < nhaines> nUboon2Age: wish I could make it up there that weekend. :) 19:33 < nUboon2Age> me too nhaines ;-) 19:34 < nUboon2Age> any questions? 19:34 < MarkDude> ne too nhaines 19:34 < MarkDude> Ryan Singer said he can help 19:34 < nUboon2Age> awesome! 19:34 < seidos> if teleportation machines were available i'd go :) 19:34 < nUboon2Age> ;) 19:34 < grantbow> sounds like fun 19:34 < seidos> i mean :( 19:34 *** MarkDude will post info to ML, we now know permanent ime spot 19:35 < MarkDude> * time 19:35 < pleia2> oh, announcement-wise we have another SF Hour on the 28th (sorry for being late to the meeting, it's been a busy weekend): http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/team/380/detail/ 19:35 < nUboon2Age> grant would too if he didn't have a prior obligation OLPC. 19:35 < MarkDude> I would also like to announce that I was able to get the Penguin suit that grantbow, jdeslip and zareason had pitched in on http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10527806/tux%20dude.JPG - anyone in the Bay that needs to borrow it, let me know 19:36 < jdeslip> pleia2: I got to make it to one of those 19:36 < rww> oh cool, there's a global event for Ubuntu hours now. didn't notice that before. 19:36 < nUboon2Age> pleia2: what time? 19:36 < nhaines> And another Lake Forest Hour on the 23rd. http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/team/357/detail/ 19:36 < grantbow> MarkDude: wow 19:36 < pleia2> nUboon2Age: 6-7PM 19:36 < nUboon2Age> pleia2: ty 19:36 < jdeslip> MarkDude: do you have pictures? 19:36 < pleia2> everyone should come because the 29th is my birthday so it's a nice time to give me my presents 19:36 < pleia2> :D 19:36 < Flannel> pleia2: Anything pink, right? 19:36 < itnet7> jdeslip: he just linked it! it was great! 19:36 < pleia2> Flannel: right! 19:36 < MarkDude> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10527806/tux%20dude.JPG jdeslip 19:36 < jledbetter> pleia2, Hehe :) 19:36 < itnet7> classic MarkDude ! 19:37 < MarkDude> pleia2, can I wear it to Ubuntu Hour? 19:37 < jdeslip> itnet7: MarkDude: Thanks - I'm dense. 19:37 < pleia2> MarkDude: yes 19:37 *** rww rummages for a KDE-spin Fedora disc to paint pink 19:37 < pleia2> but the coffee shop closes at 7, so don't be late :) 19:37 < itnet7> jdeslip: no worris, just wasn't sure if you had seen it or not :-) 19:37 < itnet7> /s/worris/worries/ 19:37 < Flannel> Alright, anyone have anything else for announcements? 19:37 < MarkDude> Creative Commons Salon: Participatory Culture Offline is tomorrow in SF 19:37 < grantbow> 12 19:38 < grantbow> mt 19:38 < MarkDude> 7-9pm Gray Area Foundation for the Arts (GAFFTA) 55 Taylor St. San Francisco, CA 19:38 < MarkDude> $5-10 suggested - no one turned away 19:40 < Flannel> Anything else? grantbow, did you have something? or was that just being in the wrong window? 19:40 < grantbow> mis-type, sorry 19:40 < Flannel> No worries 19:40 < dragon> cleaning the keyboard 19:40 < dragon> possibly. 19:41 < Flannel> Alright. Our next agenda item is the global jam recaps. We had one on Friday in SF, and one in Pasadena on Saturday. 19:41 < Flannel> Anyone get to attend jono's on Friday? 19:42 < MarkDude> Did he have 2? 19:42 < rww> no, Flannel means Berkeley ;P 19:42 < Flannel> MarkDude: Not that I'm aware of. 19:42 < MarkDude> k 19:42 < nUboon2Age> yes, grantbow, MarkDude jdeslip and another person who's name i don't remember 19:42 < nUboon2Age> and me 19:42 < Flannel> Oh, the wiki just says "East SF Bay" until you get to the actual address. Sorry. 19:43 < nUboon2Age> if we're talking about the last one 19:43 < Flannel> nUboon2Age: The one on August 27th 19:43 < nUboon2Age> yup 19:43 < Flannel> nUboon2Age: How did it go? 19:44 < nUboon2Age> grantbow and MarkDude and jono helped me with me ailing Lucid install and talked creative commons 19:44 < MarkDude> Yep, it was great. ZAreason donated some badges & SWAG, we drank caffeine, tried to repair a broken upgrade 19:44 < grantbow> http://www.flickr.com/photos/grantbow/4465608192/ - A Cuppa Tea was the location. 19:44 < jdeslip> Was pretty quiet when I was there. Jono was helping me port an app to quickly. 19:45 < grantbow> Jono gave an overview of Unity too which I found very informative. 19:45 < nUboon2Age> grantbow: oh yeah! that was waaaaaayyyy cool! 19:45 < MarkDude> Once they get the bugs out of it, it will be great 19:46 < grantbow> http://www.flickr.com/photos/grantbow/4445866451/in/photostream/ <- optimistic 19:47 < grantbow> they'll get the bugs out 19:47 < Flannel> Any other comments about that jam? 19:47 < grantbow> Unity is the new UNR window UI, url is... 19:48 < grantbow> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity 19:48 < nUboon2Age> just that i appreciated the help on my computer. in the end i reinstalled, but having the moral support meant a LOT 19:48 < nhaines> nUboon2Age: sometimes a reinstall is the most surefire option. 19:49 < MarkDude> nUboon2Age, it was also nice knowing you did a good diagnosis of it also. Gives confidence :) 19:49 < nUboon2Age> nhaines: this time i went with a separate /home partition so i'll have more options in the future. ;-) 19:50 < nUboon2Age> MarkDude: yeah i did TONS of homework on that one. nonstop for at least a week. learned a LOT. Also very stressful 19:50 < Flannel> Alright. We had another jam for the southern california area on Saturday, anyone who was there want to say anything? 19:50 < nUboon2Age> who all went? 19:50 < Flannel> nUboon2Age: Unfortunately, broken things are often the times you learn the most 19:51 < nUboon2Age> Flannel: so true. :/ 19:51 < eps> "Oh no, not another learning experience!" 19:51 < MarkDude> eps lol 19:52 < grantbow> better than not learning, lol 19:52 < Flannel> People who attended were: cactaur, nhaines, jbermudes, and myself. 19:52 < jbermudes> I was there. It was a nice day for trebuchets and website talk 19:52 < nhaines> We did some brainstorming about the LoCo website. 19:52 < nUboon2Age> Flannel: what all did you folks do? (i've only been to one so i'm curious) 19:52 < nhaines> Also trebuchets! 19:53 < Flannel> We worked through a few use-cases for the website, and did some misc brainstorming as well 19:54 < MarkDude> trebuchets? +1 19:54 < Flannel> jbermudes, nhaines: things we could've done better next time? 19:55 < nhaines> Flannel: signage might have been better, but we did improve that during the Jam. 19:55 < Flannel> nhaines: anything apart from adding the new ubuntu font to the sign? :P 19:55 < grantbow> I'm looking forward to a place on the new website for LUGs. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/UserGroupContacts/Groups 19:55 < nhaines> Flannel: just having them more conspicuous. :P 19:55 < Flannel> grantbow: As am I 19:56 < jbermudes> I'm sure the last minute lack of venue might have made it less populated than we'd hope for, so hopefully next time we'll have that better coordinated 19:56 < Flannel> nhaines: I would've liked a room with better cellphone reception, which leads into finding a room for-sure further in advance. Global Jam snuck up on us this time, statewide. 19:57 < Flannel> jbermudes: yeah 19:57 < Flannel> In general, I know there was a desire to have one up north on the weekend as well, that fell through the cracks (possibly due to the short cycle? was global jam at an odd time this time around?). We'll just have to be better about it in the future. 19:57 < nhaines> Flannel: yeah, that'll be good too. 19:58 < Flannel> Anyone else have comments about the jams in general? or shall we move on? 19:59 < MarkDude> +1 move on 19:59 < nUboon2Age> when's the next one? 19:59 < nhaines> nUboon2Age: about five or six months. 19:59 < Flannel> nUboon2Age: They happen a few months before release (The Global variety, we can plan our own jam whenever we feel like it) 19:59 < nUboon2Age> ah, ty 20:00 < Flannel> nUboon2Age: Tends to be February-ish for .04 releases 20:00 < Flannel> Our next item is a recap of the Solano Stroll booth and event, which was September 12th in Berkeley 20:01 < Flannel> Who all had a chance to make it? 20:01 < grantbow> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/SolanoStroll2010 20:01 < grantbow> It was a great event, not sure if all the pictures are linked to that page yet 20:02 < pleia2> I just added the ones mark had in a dropbox 20:02 *** MarkDude stood out in front of booth and asked people if they had evil proprietary software- and had they heard the word of Ubuntu? And then I offered to *heal* their hardware 20:02 < nUboon2Age> that was fun, thanks to Jack and Grant (and whoever else) for organizing it.. The android dolls were a fun touch. loved it! 20:02 < grantbow> Lots of folks helped out in many ways. 20:02 < akk> haha, MarkDude 20:02 < grantbow> jdeslip took some great pictures 20:02 < grantbow> akk: he did, lol 20:03 *** MarkDude will post his soon, big backlog 20:03 < seidos> MarkDude, haarrrrrrr 20:03 < jdeslip> We passed out about 250 disks and about 400 flyers 20:03 < rww> MarkDude: Did you dress up as a disciple of St. IGNUcius? 20:03 < nhaines> jdeslip: that's great. :) 20:03 < grantbow> too bad it wasn't Talk Like a Pirate day for Solano Stroll 20:03 < FashionGirl> MarkDude: can you call or IM me? 20:03 < nUboon2Age> there were some great conversations informing people about Ubuntu and Linux in general 20:03 *** seidos wonders when talk like a ninja day is 20:03 < MarkDude> rww, nope, but I wish I had the suit there 20:04 < MarkDude> FashionGirl, yes 20:04 < jdeslip> We had a contest to give away 3 of these: http://blog.dyzplastic.com/2010/02/android-mini-collectibles.html 20:04 < FashionGirl> gracias MarkDude 20:04 < rww> seidos: One of the days when the channel is quiet and nobody says anything. 20:04 < nUboon2Age> those are the android dolls i mentioned 20:04 < jdeslip> People were really interested. Camped out to win one. 20:04 < seidos> rww, no japanese then? :( 20:04 < jdeslip> Actually, in general, people were way more interested in the Android paraphanalia than Ubuntu ;) 20:05 < jdeslip> Android stuff was all taken up immediately ;) 20:05 < nUboon2Age> it was a good additional draw 20:05 < Flannel> jbermudes: So, we need to look into making Ubuntu action figures? 20:05 < Flannel> jdeslip: ^^ 20:05 < nUboon2Age> Flannel: definitely ;-) 20:05 < jdeslip> Ya, Ubuntu needs a cuter mascot 20:05 < FashionGirl> actually nvm don't call me MarkDude but you can IM me 20:06 < jdeslip> But, giving away 250 discs (mostly to people who showed a lot of interest) is pretty good. 20:06 < nUboon2Age> three action figure people of multiple ethnicities holding hands 20:07 < Flannel> Maybe we can have CoF rings or something, that you need three people to activate your wonder-triplet powers 20:07 < jbermudes> only if they come packaged with ubuntu candy 20:07 < seidos> i don't think ubuntu would lend itself to action figures. dolls maybe... 20:08 *** MarkDude hopes we can get to council stuff soon. Some people here have jetlag or need to do other stuff. It was not easy to get a Gidget Kitchen board member here. Not trying to be rude :) 20:08 < Flannel> Any other input from the Stroll? Were we missing anything at the booth that we need to remember to bring next time? 20:08 < eps> How about a custom Jono action figure? -> www.herobuilders.com (howver, they aren't cheap) 20:08 < jdeslip> I think we had everything we needed 20:08 *** seidos facepalms 20:08 < nUboon2Age> maybe tux w/ the ubuntu logo on tummy 20:09 < jdeslip> Two banners ... stuffed tux that people kept asking if they could take ;) 20:09 < jdeslip> Zareason gave us a bunch of linux mags to give out as well 20:09 < grantbow> +1 android dolls 20:09 < cuddlefish> Ah, that's where those came from. 20:09 < Flannel> Good, sounds like we had it all covered then. 20:09 < cuddlefish> grantbow++ 20:10 < nhaines> jdeslip: too bad there wasn't a tuxdroid then! :) 20:10 < Flannel> With that, we'll move on to our next topic. The Ubuntu Loco council is here for some discussion. 20:11 < czajkowski> thanks 20:11 < Flannel> itnet7, paultag, czajkowski 20:11 < nUboon2Age> if that banner is still up here on Oct 9th, could we use it at Code Camp? 20:11 < paultag> Present :) 20:11 < czajkowski> Aloha I'm on the LoCo Council with itnet7 and paultag we're here today as we'd like to discuss some issues that have come to light within this team. This is not a reflection on the team. We add ourselves to many team meeting and it's what we've been elected to do, we're here to help. 20:11 < czajkowski> so I'll post some of the issue here 20:11 < nUboon2Age> not a big deal if it doesn't work out, just it'd be fun. 20:12 < czajkowski> anyone who wants to comment or +1/-1/+0 comments are all welcome 20:12 < czajkowski> the idea is to get some discussion going 20:12 < czajkowski> 1) Leadership - self elected and people would like a change or to rotate 20:12 < czajkowski> this position 20:12 < czajkowski> 2) At present too much control by one person, if people edit a wiki or 20:12 < czajkowski> organise events that are not approved they are not team events ie Geeknics 20:12 < czajkowski> 3) Too much red tape on post events, simple blog report isn't sufficient 20:12 < czajkowski> the need to attend a meeting afterwards seems rather harsh 20:12 < czajkowski> so these are some of the issues that have been raised 20:12 < czajkowski> 4) People want a change and it needs to happen otherwise people are going to *continue* to lose interest in the team 20:12 < czajkowski> does anyone have any comments on them ? 20:13 < czajkowski> I realise it's late and after an hour meeting people may be tired, but if you could spare a few mins with this topic we'd appreciate it 20:13 < MarkDude> accurate. 20:13 < Flannel> czajkowski: Probably best to pick some of the simpler ones to start with, 2 and 3 are probably good ones. 20:13 < MarkDude> lol 20:13 < czajkowski> MarkDude: thanks 20:13 < grantbow> how is #1 not simple? 20:13 < pleia2> I would like to see more freedom on wiki editing, even I feel a bit shy when editing it and I don't feel that way elsewhere 20:14 < akk> 1 and 2 seem tied together. 20:14 < czajkowski> ok lets start at the top 20:14 < Flannel> pleia2: In what ways are wiki edits for lack of a better term, not "free"? 20:14 < czajkowski> and work our way down the list 20:14 < akk> well, maybe they're all tied together 20:14 < jledbetter> akk +1 20:14 < czajkowski> so 1st point, leadership was self apointed, are folks happy to continue this way or have a election efvery year and change things around ? 20:14 < pleia2> Flannel: the user groups page is a good example, it's a great page but I understand there have been problems with placement 20:15 < czajkowski> for example in my team 20:15 < dragon> Third one directly relates to the "too much control" issue. 20:15 < jdeslip> I actually have to get going, but I think all of those points are valid. I have lost nearly all interest in this team. I find the leadership to mostly just delay / get in the way of local event planning. I now participate in events almost exclusively through local LUGs. It is only because grantbow makes a tremendous to make them joint ubuntu-loco events that I really associate with this group at all. 20:15 < grantbow> czajkowksi: we have some history discussing this with Jono and on the ubuntu-us-ca mail list among other places. 20:15 < czajkowski> we have a point of contact and that person chairs the meeting, but we share roles ot 20:15 < pleia2> thanks for your input, jdeslip 20:16 < czajkowski> jdeslip: thank you, I appreciate the comments. 20:16 < Flannel> pleia2: We have had some bikeshedding issues associated with that in the past, and we worked through a way to keep edit wars from going on, and to bring discussion here to resolve issues instead 20:16 < itnet7> ty jdeslip ! 20:16 *** MarkDude pointed out last year that our header contains 3 links to the exact same page- last year 20:16 < akk> Honestly, on leadership I think we could use more transparency -- more publicity on who the leader is, what they do etc. 20:16 < grantbow> jdeslip: thanks for your proposal attempt earlier too 20:16 < akk> You kind of have to figure that out from lurking in the channel for a long time -- it's not really made clear anywhere. 20:16 < czajkowski> jdeslip: I'm sorry you feel that way. How can the team change in order to make it feel more well, a loco 20:16 < MarkDude> still have 3 links to irc meeting log :( 20:16 < pleia2> Flannel: the user page one at least is not resolved :( the only way people end up knowing about it is that grantbow puts a lot of effort into telling people about it all the time 20:17 < czajkowski> akk: ok point taken , thanks 20:17 < pleia2> err, user group page 20:17 < czajkowski> grantbow: thanks 20:17 < jdeslip> @everyone: I don't know what can be done to fix things. But, happy mending! Night all! 20:17 < jbermudes> akk: I'm interested in knowing what you mean by feeling that leadership information is hidden? 20:17 < czajkowski> jdeslip: thanks 20:17 < pleia2> night jdeslip :) 20:18 < grantbow> pleia2: less so lately because it was forcably removed from the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Menu and never restored 20:18 < czajkowski> who foreceably removed it ? 20:18 < Flannel> pleia2: That project was originally proposed as an effort to get LoCo people to reach out to LUG leadership, so we can work together. The current state of the wiki pages associated with it are that the list of LUGs took on a life of it's own. 20:18 < grantbow> threats of wiki edit conflicts, etc 20:18 < grantbow> I chose to spend my time elsewhere 20:18 < akk> jbermudes: Maybe I just haven't seen the right page -- is there a page somewhere that talks about who our leadership is and what they do? 20:18 < czajkowski> grantbow: :( 20:19 < czajkowski> akk: are you talking about loco leadership ? 20:19 < jledbetter> akk, how i know who the leadership is: http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-california 20:19 < grantbow> Flannel: that's not the whole truth, but is partially true. 20:19 < rww> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/WhoDoesWhat 20:19 < Flannel> czajkowski: The project was proposed by grantbow as a way to get LoCo people to get in touch with LUGs so we can work together on things. People started insisting that the internal list of LUGs we might be interested in contacting take center stage 20:20 < grantbow> constant confrontations in meetings and broken promises take a toll 20:20 < czajkowski> grantbow: indeed 20:20 < czajkowski> Flannel: just seems rather rude to remove stuff from a wiki 20:20 < lcafiero> +1 grantbow 20:20 < dragon> grantbow: +1 20:20 < czajkowski> it's a wiki afterall you don't need permission to add content to it 20:20 < pleia2> Flannel: it's vital for loco teams to work with and collaborate with tech groups in the area, I think such a list is great for all teams and worth promoting by our team (we should probably discuss this at another time, all I am pointing out is that it's an unresolved disagreement and grantbow gave up and feels disallusioned by it) 20:21 *** MarkDude had to spend a few meetings to create a wiki page, just to find out it would be more to actually make it so people could see it 20:21 < czajkowski> which really isn't a great outcome tbh 20:21 < Flannel> pleia2: Yes, it is. Which is why that list will become a part of the website. But the project is to encourage our members to reach out, not to create a list of LUGs 20:21 < nUboon2Age> imo idealy leadership is something that doesn't require a formal position and it involves supporting each other so we can zoom and be effective in spreading Ubuntu. 20:21 < grantbow> we got a bit far off track from #1 of the list but this is one of the oldest disagreements that's brewed over many months in many ways 20:21 < czajkowski> nUboon2Age: indeed I agree with you 20:21 < jbermudes> I, for one, feel that as we get a public website together that the wiki issues will disappear since the wiki will be the "working area" and the site will be the "public facing" area 20:21 < Flannel> I've said a few times that if we want to start a project to create a list of LUGs, we should do that (so we're all on the same page) and when I did, I was accused of trying to change the subject 20:22 < MarkDude> It is up to the group to decide *what* we are about<<<that is the issue, IMHO 20:22 < czajkowski> ok just a second 20:22 < czajkowski> can we please cover 1 point at a time 20:22 < seidos> i have some comments on 1 and 2. i've been giving it some thought, and i actually think more tyrannical leadership would be educational. it's good training and practice for the tyranny that ubuntu faces in general. 20:22 < czajkowski> as this meeting has gone on a lot longer that I thought it would. 20:22 < grantbow> jbermudes: I hope so too 20:23 < nUboon2Age> generally speaking i think its important that we interconnect positively with our local LUGs and not be seen as 'too good' to mix with them. 20:23 < czajkowski> so regarding leadership, would the team itself prefer to elect a team leader ? 20:23 < dragon> czajkowski: yes 20:23 < YokoZar> in order to have a coherent concept of elections we need to have a coherent concept of voters 20:23 < cuddlefish> Perhaps a protected namespace, with the rest fair game (but requiring an account) and the ReCAPTCHA plugin to reduce the spammage? 20:23 < akk> I like the idea of an elected leader ... but what exactly does the team leader do? 20:23 < Flannel> czajkowski: Elections are not the right method for this team. 20:23 < MarkDude> jbermudes, - I am concerned the site will just be another place for hassles 20:23 < MarkDude> +1 elect 20:24 < seidos> -1 elect 20:24 < czajkowski> Flannel: you cant really make that decesion for an entire team. 20:24 < nhaines> Agreed. I don't think we have the numbers to vote. 20:24 < nUboon2Age> we already have PR trouble in general with fellow Linuxers, so everything we can do to create good will is valuable 20:24 < nhaines> czajkowski: it has been discussed before, both in IRC and on the mailing list. 20:24 < seidos> +1 tyranny 20:24 < czajkowski> nhaines: I'm just asking for some voices/opinions on the matter 20:24 < YokoZar> nhaines: I was more concerned with who could vote as that's not obvious to me 20:24 < grantbow> seidos: lol 20:24 < Flannel> czajkowski: If we do some sort of election, we will not have the necessary collaboration to get anything productive done. 20:24 < seidos> -_- 20:25 < nhaines> czajkowski: I'm just pointing out that Flannel did not unilaterally decide we shouldn't vote. 20:25 < czajkowski> Flannel: you really cant make those kind of sweeping statements, I'm sorry wthout at least trying something new. 20:25 < Flannel> czajkowski: And yes, then "who votes" becomes an issue, and then you wind up excluding people because of increased barriers to entry 20:25 < erichammond> czajkowski: Some change needs to be made if this team is to become a place where I feel like contributing again. I don't know what else could be done at this point but try new leadership. If election is the only way to accomplish that, then +1 20:25 < nhaines> YokoZar: that's my biggest concern as well. 20:25 < grantbow> Flannel: I don't understand why 20:25 < Flannel> grantbow: Why what? 20:25 < akk> I don't see how an election would make things worse. 20:25 < FashionGirl> +1 20:25 < rww> for the log, I'm recusing myself from this discussion, because we're rechurning topics that have been covered over and over and over again, and "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." 20:25 < grantbow> Why "we will not have the necessary collaboration to get anything productive done." 20:25 < grantbow> I feel it's that way now 20:25 < nUboon2Age> i like that Ubuntu works for 'rough concensus and running code'. When it comes to arriving at formal leadership positions i'm not sure how to apply 'rough consensus' 20:26 < Flannel> nUboon2Age: Indeed. We have always operated on a consensus basis. 20:26 < nhaines> akk: when the topic of "who can vote" was brought up on the mailing list, several people immediately threatened to quit if we created criteria for voting members. 20:26 < czajkowski> ok so I think just judging by comments in here regarding the topic, people do want a change and a leader to be elected in some form or another, this is good to know. we can tackle the hows and whos at another time. 20:26 < czajkowski> lets move on 20:26 < YokoZar> for what it's worth I think anything that whenever you have someone saying "well I dunno, we'll have to get x to agree" then x has some power 20:26 < pleia2> Flannel: it would give credibility to a leader and let people know that if there are conflicts they will have a chance to replace them as leader, currently some people are frustrated and don't want to be a part of the team because they don't see any way to change how the team is run 20:26 < YokoZar> so +1 to elections from me 20:26 < Flannel> Everyone argues that the leadership is "tyrannical", I challenge them to back it up with a few examples of things that haven't happened due to "tyranny" 20:26 < paultag> .... 20:26 < itnet7> erichammond: thanks for your input 20:26 < MarkDude> They realize that perceived conflicts of interest are as important as real conflicts of interest and are cognizant of perceptions; they understand that their actions are as tainted by perceived conflicts as by real ones. 20:26 < grantbow> confrontation in meetings 20:27 < MarkDude> Flannel, ^^^ from the Leadership CoC 20:27 < paultag> Flannel, well if you do switch to elections, hopefully you'll run for the spot :) 20:27 < Flannel> MarkDude: I'm well aware of the LCoC 20:27 < grantbow> +1 CoC & LCoC 20:27 < czajkowski> right moving on folks 20:27 < czajkowski> 2) At present too much control by one person, if people edit a wiki or 20:27 < czajkowski> organise events that are not approved they are not team events ie Geeknics 20:27 < czajkowski> 3) Too much red tape on post events, simple blog report isn't sufficient 20:27 < czajkowski> the need to attend a meeting afterwards seems rather harsh 20:27 < czajkowski> so these 2 points go hand in hand really 20:28 < czajkowski> there even by the sounds of it, a lot of management of who can edit what and where things can go 20:28 < czajkowski> it's a wiki folks, it shouldn't be a case of asking for permission to add content 20:28 < nhaines> czajkowski: we have had a problem with events being announced as "LoCo events" a couple days before they happen, with no discussion or collaboration on them beforehand. 20:28 < Flannel> czajkowski: And no one has to. 20:28 < czajkowski> nhaines: right, but again if someone has an idea 20:28 < czajkowski> and they create an event 20:28 < czajkowski> for example say an Ubuntu hour 20:29 < czajkowski> and just create it on the loco directory (where all events should go) and on the wesbites/wiki 20:29 < czajkowski> it's a good thing to happen 20:29 < nUboon2Age> i haven't been around long enough to experience much of this, but it seems to me to be good to have group expectations set so they know what the procedures are (including how long a person will serve in a position) 20:29 *** MarkDude would hope we could do a triumvirate leadership, I would vote for Flannel in that 20:29 < Flannel> czajkowski: That's exactly how it currently works. I know of zero events that have been proposed 20:29 < czajkowski> and it doesnt matter if it's 1 days notice or 1 weeks notice 20:29 < grantbow> volunteer efforts can not all be planned months in advance 20:29 < Flannel> er, zero events that are proposed and not accepted 20:29 < pleia2> nhaines: I think it depends on what you characterize as "no discussion or collaboration" - events grow very organically up here because we see each other in person all the time - yes, sometimes it doesn't get to the mailing list or forum, but there is a lot of discussion and collaboration between members who are involved in the event, and we're constantly reaching out to new folks 20:29 < nUboon2Age> and how to get things published in schedule, etc. 20:29 < grantbow> Flannel: people stopped proposing events to be accepted 20:30 < pleia2> I've been trying to get more of it to the list and IRC sooner, but it's tricky because of the culture of how things happen here 20:30 < czajkowski> why do you need to propose events? 20:30 < dragon> Should each event have to go through the tyrannical dictator? 20:30 < jbermudes> there's a tyrannical dictator? 20:30 < Flannel> grantbow: I don't believe that's true. Yes, people stopped proposing events, but I don't think they ever tried in the first place. You just assumed it wouldn't work and stopped trying. 20:30 < grantbow> Thar be dragons here! 20:30 < czajkowski> also your meetins have gone on very long due to going over the previous eevents, this would be better server written up in a report 20:30 < Flannel> czajkowski: Because we're a team. Part of being in a team is having a say in what the team does. 20:30 < czajkowski> meetings over 1 hour lose interest 20:31 < grantbow> +1 shorter meetings 20:31 < grantbow> summaries & reporting only 20:31 < nhaines> czajkowski: when events are recapped on the ML, then in the meeting they just become summaries and links. 20:31 < czajkowski> Flannel: it's too controling 20:31 < czajkowski> nhaines: that's a lot of recapping for one thing 20:31 < Flannel> czajkowski: No it's not. 20:31 < grantbow> +1 czajkowski 20:31 < czajkowski> and again people lose interst 20:31 < czajkowski> I chair a lot of meetings 20:31 < YokoZar> czajkowski: absolutely, it was frankly rude to not have this part of the meeting first 20:31 < nhaines> czajkowski: a single recap and a link is too much? 20:31 < MarkDude> +1 20:31 < czajkowski> and have done for the last 10 years, meeting should be about 60 mins if not less 20:31 < Flannel> czajkowski: How is it controlling to have other people give input on what something they have a stake in does? 20:31 < erichammond> +1 YokoZar 20:32 < grantbow> +1 YokoZar 20:32 < czajkowski> YokoZar: I added it to the 1st topic, someone moved it to further down , I was less than impressed I ahve to say 20:32 < MarkDude> This agenda item was 1st originally YokoZar - it was changed after 20:32 < aaditya> +1 YokoZar 20:32 < Flannel> MarkDude: No one had gotten around to adding the roll-over from last meeting. 20:32 < MarkDude> +yokozar 20:32 < grantbow> edit logs are easy to look at for wiki pages 20:33 < czajkowski> nhaines: anyone can write up a blog post, post that to the ML but there really is no need to then add it to the meeting , just copy from ML to team report 20:33 < MarkDude> Flannel, - then it goes to the bottom 20:33 < Flannel> MarkDude: Old business before new business, like every other organization. 20:33 < MarkDude> as my stuff. thats how I would HAVE to do it 20:33 < YokoZar> Well regardless let's just recognize we have a meeting length problem 20:33 < czajkowski> Flannel: most of the topics that have been brought up tonight should be under Annoucments and not take up 1hr! 20:33 < czajkowski> YokoZar: +1 20:33 < paultag> I'm taking time out of my night 20:33 < Flannel> czajkowski: Recaps are a place for *everyone* to provide input on a meeting, what went well, what didn't. So our events can grow and mature. 20:33 < czajkowski> I've had to get up at 3am for this 20:34 < grantbow> YokoZar: +1 20:34 < czajkowski> Flannel: then post to mailing list only 20:34 < czajkowski> you are making meeting longer 20:34 < nUboon2Age> well i'll just say again that imo there needs to be a stated way to get things onto the schedule so everyone knows how it works. same thing with how to post to wiki and other team-shared resources. Otherwise it can be perceived as arbitrary. 20:34 < czajkowski> then they need to be and it's frustating for others 20:34 < grantbow> +1 mail list use 20:34 < grantbow> unless you get moderated 20:34 < czajkowski> why would anyone on a team list get moderated ??? 20:34 < FashionGirl> yokozr+1 20:34 < MarkDude> grantbow, +1 20:35 < pleia2> Flannel: it's really hard for some of us to attend meetings (sunday nights are family time for me, I'm missing that for this and it's Not Good), I don't love that people have told me that they feel like they're required to attend meetings or be shut out of the team (they have really told me this) 20:35 < akk> +1 on the ML 20:35 < czajkowski> I would hope that anyone on a team list doesnt have to go through some moderateion ? 20:35 < Flannel> pleia2: Who told you that? No one should have. 20:35 < czajkowski> pleia2: lordie that should not happen! 20:35 < Flannel> pleia2: If you can't attend meetings and have something to say, you're always welcome to have someone say it for you. 20:35 < itnet7> IMHO there should only be one reason for someone to require moderation on a LoCo Mailing list, If they are replying with an unregistered address 20:35 < pleia2> Flannel: it's felt that if you do an event you're required to attend the meeting for the recap 20:35 < nhaines> pleia2: and that's usually done by posting to the ML beforehand. 20:36 < Flannel> pleia2: Ah, well, that's a mistake. I wish you would've brought it up sooner so we could've worked around it. 20:36 < pleia2> if you don't do the recap you're in trouble 20:36 < pleia2> (or your event "doesn't count") 20:36 < grantbow> these proposed additions speak indirectly to a moderation incident. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-ca/2009-December/000987.html 20:36 < Flannel> pleia2: Recaps are just a place for feedback. That feedback can happen through any of a number of means. 20:37 < czajkowski> itnet7: exactly 20:37 < jbermudes> I'm not opposed to recaps in a meeting, but a recap should be allowed to be empty, in other words, just say everything went fine, nothing bad to report, move on. 20:37 < pleia2> Flannel: unfortunately that's not the message that has been sent 20:37 < czajkowski> jbermudes: and not take up nearly an hour! 20:37 < Flannel> jbermudes: We've had recaps like that before. 20:37 < Flannel> pleia2: We'll have to work to fix that then. 20:37 < grantbow> arrr, walk the plank ye scoundrels! 20:38 < jbermudes> Flannel: right, so really what we need to do is just emphasize that lengthy recaps should be the exception and not the norm 20:38 < YokoZar> There are many ways to speed up a meeting, depending on who's running it and what it's about, but regardless we agree we have a problem ~length so perhaps moving onward might be best. 20:38 < Flannel> pleia2: The recap ultimately should go on the project page, at meetings is just a place to make sure there's some discussion about it if needed. 20:38 < czajkowski> indeed 20:38 < grantbow> +1 rotations 20:39 < pleia2> Flannel: I agree, and stress *if needed* because I think frequently it isn't if proper documentation exists 20:39 < nhaines> pleia2: that's the way it works now, too. 20:40 < Flannel> nhaines: Well, not if you feel like you have to come to your recap. 20:40 < pleia2> nhaines: it may be, but that's not the impression people have 20:40 < itnet7> Flannel: there does seriously seem to be an issue with Transparency, When I was at OSCON and I met all of you, you allowed me to attend the Key-Signing, then some of you discouraged my attendance of the Team meeting 20:40 < Flannel> itnet7: That wasn't a team meeting, that was a conflict resolution meeting. 20:40 < MarkDude> Transparency is key here +1 20:40 < itnet7> That isn't very transparent and honestly I fealt very odd about it 20:40 < czajkowski> Flannel: and having a council memeber could have been useful 20:40 < nhaines> pleia2: well, we'll have to work on that. 20:40 < grantbow> oscon or cls? 20:41 < grantbow> +1 Transparency 20:41 < MarkDude> grantbow, that was OSCON in San Jose 20:41 < itnet7> czajkowski: I wasn't a council member at the time 20:41 < czajkowski> ok 20:41 < grantbow> it was after CLS, they drove back down south before oscon took place 20:41 < Flannel> MarkDude: It was at CLS though, not OSCON 20:41 < itnet7> but I look at LoCo's as one big community 20:41 < paultag> +1 20:41 < itnet7> So I did really feel odd about it 20:41 < grantbow> that's the one where I got ambushed 20:41 < itnet7> almost like an outsider 20:41 *** MarkDude thinks itnet7 's tattoos could havebeen helpful 20:42 < itnet7> Which apparently I was 20:42 < MarkDude> :) 20:42 < pleia2> MarkDude: haha 20:42 < grantbow> nothing was resolved and that meeting made things worse 20:42 < itnet7> MarkDude: lol 20:42 < grantbow> IMHO 20:42 < MarkDude> The man has a Tux tat 20:42 < Flannel> itnet7: Again, it was a conflict resolution meeting. Part of the conflict resolution process is "discuss privately". 20:42 < Flannel> grantbow: nothing was discussed, actually. But this is off topic. 20:42 < czajkowski> maybe it should be more open 20:42 < czajkowski> right moving on to final point 20:42 < Flannel> czajkowski: Take it up with the CC then, since it's their conflict resolution process. 20:43 < grantbow> almost nothing 20:43 < czajkowski> Flannel: lets compare apples with apples, the CC is one body, and not a loco team. 20:43 < czajkowski> 4) People want a change and it needs to happen otherwise people are going to *continue* to lose interest in the team 20:43 < czajkowski> I think judging by the reactions and comments, this is a fair comment to make 20:43 < grantbow> +1 20:43 *** MarkDude put on the Penguin suit now +1 20:43 < jbermudes> +1 with the caveat that some of the suggestions brought up may not be the optimal ones 20:44 < czajkowski> jbermudes: tonights meeting is just a chance to talk things out 20:44 < nUboon2Age> i don't know when this would be appropriate to say, but i didn't have the feeling that MarkDude's 3 proposals got adequate discussion and processing. 20:44 < czajkowski> and make a plan for the way forward 20:44 < czajkowski> nUboon2Age: no thats a fair comment to make, and thank you for making it 20:44 < grantbow> +1 plan forward 20:44 < pleia2> nUboon2Age: they were kinda thrown out there with no modifier, we didn't know what we were looking at, they just showed up on the list one day 20:44 < czajkowski> I dont know what the propsals were, but everyone should have a chance to be heard. 20:44 < nhaines> nUboon2Age: that's because it was the same proposal three times and was self-admitedly impossible to implement. 20:44 < seidos> -1 plan forward 20:45 < MarkDude> nUboon2Age, - I table them for the time, but would encourage Flannel to endorse them 20:45 < nUboon2Age> pleia2: true enough, but somehow it seems like there needs a way to work through them. 20:45 < seidos> sorry, i had to heat some food up for my lady friend 20:45 < nhaines> czajkowski: he posted to the ML and was heard--no one responded to him though. 20:45 *** seidos tries to push his tyranny agenda 20:45 < nUboon2Age> nhaines: i percieved the difference between each of the three 20:45 < MarkDude> seidos, I support your agenda of food heating :) 20:46 < seidos> i propose we have 1 leader, the most tyrannical, most hated, and most inept. 20:46 < czajkowski> seidos: not helping 20:46 < Flannel> seidos: Please stop being facetious 20:46 < seidos> i'm quite serious. 20:46 < Flannel> Fair enough 20:46 < itnet7> seidos: if you have nothing valuable to lend can you please save it for an open discussion part of the meeting? 20:46 < FashionGirl> +1 20:47 < nUboon2Age> having chatted w/ seidos, i realize he probably is serious 20:47 < itnet7> if you have something constructive to say then +1 20:47 < itnet7> but stop stammering about tyranny 20:47 < seidos> itnet7, how isn't it valuable? i stand by my idea that tyrannical leadership is good training for ubuntu members. 20:47 < seidos> how else will we learn to implement ubuntu in corporations? 20:47 < grantbow> the CoC and LCoC by most readings rule out tyranny 20:47 < paultag> But not your loco, and members who don't care about that, seidos. 20:48 < jbermudes> so there's obviously some feelings that things could be better. where do we go from here? we can be here all night airing out dirty laundry about "he said she said" 20:48 < paultag> seidos, can we please stick with productive comments, for the time being? 20:48 < erichammond> I missed a few minutes there to change the battery in my phone. Is the meeting still on? 20:48 < nhaines> erichammond: yes. 20:48 < czajkowski> erichammond: aye 20:48 < grantbow> lots will be online soon 20:48 < seidos> paultag, i thought my comments were productive. 20:48 < grantbow> logs 20:48 < grantbow> even 20:49 < MarkDude> erichammond, has some possible comments on leadership 20:49 < MarkDude> from looking at meeting logs 20:49 < seidos> well, if we end up being all free and everything, then i propose we have a tyranny day, perhaps once a week. 20:49 < seidos> and i'd point out that sometimes things that seem humorous are true. 20:50 < jledbetter> oh boy 20:50 < grantbow> seidos: not helping 20:50 < czajkowski> Right going to recap what we've discussed 20:50 < czajkowski> because quiet frankly a 2 hour meeting is not at all productive. 20:50 < czajkowski> * Folks want to have some sort of input into a leadership - 20:50 < czajkowski> * Meetings are too long and need to be shorter, having long postings about events that have happened should go to the ML, and just a snip of it happening post to the meeting. 20:50 < czajkowski> * You do not need to come to a meeting to give a recap! just to be clear 20:50 < czajkowski> * There seems to be a lack of Transparency within the team 20:50 < czajkowski> * People want change to happen. in some form or manner 20:51 < czajkowski> I'd also like to thank everyone for coming and taking part in this disucssion 20:51 < czajkowski> it's been eye opening and I hope it helps the team as well 20:52 < paultag> Aye, thanks for your time, -us-ca :) 20:52 < nhaines> Frankly, I think the LC addition to the meeting agenda could have used more transparency as well. 20:52 < grantbow> for the record, one process was begun earlier regarding some of these. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-ca/2010-March/001061.html 20:52 < MarkDude> ty czajkowski itnet7 paultag 20:52 < czajkowski> also if anyone feels that the don't want to say things in channel they can always talk to the council members, that;s something we encourage and it's a good thing 20:52 < pleia2> thanks czajkowski, paultag and itnet7 20:53 < grantbow> thank you czajkowski, paultag and itnet7 20:53 < akk> Yes, thanks! to czajkowski, paultag and itnet7 20:53 < seidos> namaste everybody. 20:53 < Flannel> Alright. I think it's safe to assume we want to take Maverick release planning to the ML. 20:53 < czajkowski> I think people need to be a little more tolerant here and open to suggestions, imho. 20:53 < jledbetter> nice seeing y'all again czajkowski itnet7 and paultag 20:54 < pleia2> czajkowski: does dublin have a Mav release party date yet? 20:54 < czajkowski> I'll also be adding a session on how to run a meeting at the next loco health check if folks want to come along :) 20:54 < czajkowski> pleia2: 10.10.10 see you there :D 20:54 < seidos> czajkowski, +1 to open to suggestions :) 20:54 < czajkowski> but after a 2 hour meeting I am going back to bed 20:54 < YokoZar> Thank you all. 20:54 < jledbetter> czajkowski, that'd be great. g'night :) 20:54 < YokoZar> Particularly czajkowski 20:54 *** pleia2 will be sleepy on 10.10.10 but will be there :) 20:54 < paultag> Aye, good night everyone, great talking with you guys, again 20:54 < rww> just think of it as two one-hour meetings, with radically-different levels of participation and usefulness 20:54 < paultag> cheers 20:54 < Flannel> Our next meeting will be October 3rd, at 7pm. 20:54 < MarkDude> rww lol 20:54 < grantbow> Thanks for sharing your comments - we need them all to move forward. 20:55 < czajkowski> indeeed 20:55 *** MarkDude thanks Flannel , and everyone else that participated 20:55 < nUboon2Age> namaste, and here's hoping this will become a team that is friendly, welcoming an well processing unit. i want to feel free to ask my gf to join in.
CaliforniaTeam/Meetings/10September19 (last edited 2010-09-20 08:44:37 by adsl-68-127-174-184)