2009-07-21

For minutes of previous meetings, please see DesktopTeam/Meeting.

Meeting Minutes

Present

Main Meeting

  • Rick Spencer (rickspencer3) - chair
  • Alexander Sack (asac)

  • Arne Goetje (ArneGoetje)

  • Bryce Harrington (bryce)
  • Chris Cheney (calc)
  • Jonathan Riddell (Riddell)

  • Ken VanDine (kenvandine)

  • Martin Pitt (pitti)
  • Sebastien Bacher (seb128)
  • Till Kamppeter (tkamppeter)
  • Tony Espy

Eastern Edition

  • Luke Yelavich (TheMuso)

  • Robert Ancell (robert_ancell)

Apologies

Agenda

  • Outstanding actions from last meeting

Announcements

  • Bluetooth subsidy

Status Updates

  • Partner Update
  • Kubuntu Update
  • Release Bugs/Release Status
  • Review activity reports

Discussion

  • support bugs
  • how cool is Karmic going to be?

Any other business

Actions from this meeting

  • ACTION: asac to set up wiki page to track bluetooth devices for desktop team
  • ACTION: Riddell to report on current state of BT in Kubuntu Karmic
  • ACTION: rickspencer3 to update on gdm greeter skinning resources at next meeting

Outstanding actions from last meeting

  • ACTION: rickspencer3 to create trackable feature areas for DXE team
    • RESULT: was directed to blueprints, kenvandine to follow up
  • ACTION: kenvandine to facilitate discussion between SteveA and asac regarding firefox extension
    • RESULT: Done, statik to contact asac shortly
  • ACTION: everyone try both bluetooth front ends, report experience to asac next team meeting\
    • RESULT: some testing done, reported via email

  • ACTION: TheMuso to test accessibility of empathy built with webkit

    • RESULT: The dialogs and menus are fine, but the contact list is not properly read. The only way to get contact list items read is to open chat windows for each of them, and close the window again. Bugs to be logged.

Bluetooth Subsidy

  • All Canonical desktoppers can expense up to $50 US for bluetooth equipment
  • Requirement is that you get it to work in Karmic
  • Try to choose "different" equipment
  • Goal is to help get bluetooth working better in Karmic

Partner Update

UbuntuOne:

Status

  • desktop couchdb
    • due in REVU by end of week
  • client records api
    • due in REVU by end of week
  • evolution using couch for storage
    • evolution-couchdb and couchdb-glib are in REVU
  • file syncing
    • in main and on CD (DONE)
  • generic contact picker UI
    • no longer in scope for karmic
  • screen sharing
    • might punt for karmic
  • firefox bookmarks syncing
    • due in REVU by end of week
  • MIR
    • couchdb
    • erlang

DX:

  • FUSA replacement work (SUS) should be ready to integrate during the Dublin sprint

Kubuntu Update

  • Alpha 3 currently blocked on a problem in Ubiquity, currently testing a fix
  • Social from the start now implemented, microblogging and opendesktop applet on desktop, kopete-facebook installed, still some touching up to make sure it doesn't get in people's way
  • Kubuntu Netbook now has settings package and should see its first release with alpha 3
  • New Kubuntu council elected
  • ayatana patches merged upstream and backported to our packages, notifications now shared between KDE and Gnome, result!
  • freedesktop.org process seems to be making progress following GCDS (agateux's ayatana work highlighted that it wasn't currently working as it should)

Support Bugs

  • Responsiveness regarding status is key
  • Please ensure bug is assigned to you when working on it
  • Please ping me by irc, email, or subscribe me to the bug

Other Business

  • Apport being turned on for Alpha 3

Printing

  • The replacement for hal-cups-utils is under heavy developm,ent currently.

  • Completed script on the OpenPrinting server to auto-build driver packages. So in the Karmic age we will probably have auto download of binary driver packages.

Activity reports

Alexander Sack (asac)

  • firefox 3.5 xulrunner 1.9.1 security update
  • reviewing connman updates and what to do; trying to understand connman-gnome upstream status
  • draft karmic firefox roadmap heads-up for mozilla
  • work with mozilla and others on offline page
  • upload ubufox 0.8~a1 with ffox 3.5/3.6 support to karmic
  • help on libv8 (chrome javascript) packaging; check whats left before we can get
  • more udev related backport uploads to NM trunk PPA for jaunty

  • discuss upcoming changes to rosetta with ArneGoetje which will require some

    • po2xpi love as it seems
  • look into indicator-applet 100% CPU usage bug
  • discuss google o3d mozilla plugin with community and upstream

Arne Goetje (ArneGoetje)

Bryce Harrington (bryce)

  • Upstream bunches more -intel bugs. Reviewed all confirmed and
    • all Incomplete w/ response bugs and all new bugs.
  • Began development of a new script for assisting upstreaming
    • bugs to Intel. Is able to pull in the bug info via launchpadlib and displays in a form for editing.
  • Merged new mesa 7.5
  • Updated to new git version of -intel for Alpha-3. Upstream had
    • intended to get 2.8.0 out in time for alpha-3 but I guess they ran late. But I'm told this git commit is equivalent to what will be in 2.8.0.
  • Updated to new -intel 2.8.0
  • Sort out some paternity leave plans

Chris Cheney (calc)

Jonathan Riddell (Riddell)

done:

  • update KDE language packs for Karmic, now to to 92 languages

  • Update PyQt package

  • Fix KDM being killed on upgrade bug
  • Process e-mail backlog from GCDS
  • Investigate and attempt to fix Kontact bug from support
  • Testing daily CDs ahead of alpha, investigate why live FSs weren't

building, investigate X crashing on startup

todo:

  • Fix ubiquity on live CDs
  • alpha release

Ken VanDine (kenvandine)

Last week:
  • MIRS for couchdb and erlang
  • Testing U1 packages
  • Testing evolution contacts storage in couchdb, next up syncing them
  • Desktop CouchDB experimenting

This week:
  • MIRS for couchdb-glib, evolution-glib, and json-glib
  • empathy indicator patch review
  • Assisting U1 team with new packages in REVU
  • empathy-human-theme upload to REVU
  • empathy update to 2.27.4

Accessibility

  • Further work on the gnome-speech replacement specification, probably at the point where speech-dispatcher can be moved to main and gnome-speech can be demoted. Audio code bug fixing still needs to happen, and i will need good audio coders to help with that, so will be asking various lists for assistance.
  • Updated onboard to 0.90.2 in karmic.
  • Tested empathy for accessibility problems. A couple have been found relating to contact list reading for screen readers, as well as changing online status. Will check upstrea to see if bugs have bene filed, and if not, will do so.

Audio

  • Audio bug triaging, bugs in question are against pulseaudio, alsa userspace, and the kernel for hardware enablement.
  • Sent Kees' comments upstrea re rtkit, no response yet.
  • Built latest git master of gnome-media to see what has changed re pulse and card profiles, but it seems nothing UI related has been done, so nothing new yet.
  • Tested audio via HDMI again to make sure it works, and make sure pulse can be set to use HDMI, even if only using pavucontrol. Once the new pulse applet supports card profiles it should be easy for a user to choose the output they want.

Misc

  • Tested blueman and gnome-bluetooth with the same results as Jerone's testing.
  • Found some weird behavior with proprietary NVIDIA drivers version 180 and my notebook. More debugging required to work out whats going on.

Martin Pitt (pitti)

Karmic spec drafting: all approved

Karmic feature work:

  • desktop-karmic-automagic-python-build-system:
    • Lots of bug fixes and added updating of debian/control; should work well for quickly now
  • desktop-karmic-symptom-based-bug-reporting: no progress this week
  • security-karmic-apport-abort: no progress this week

  • hal deprecation:

    • discussed with upstream the porting of hal-cups-utils to udev
  • gnome-panel speedup: no progress this week

Other work done:

  • Some initial Alpha-3 release engineering
  • Lots of MIR reviews
  • fought against CD overflow
  • Bug fixing: apport, consolekit, devicekit-disks, gdm, gimp, gvfs, hal, hal-info, jockey, control-center, udev
  • Lots of bug triage, cleaned up udev bug list
  • Discussed standard document templates with Seb, we have a working plan now
  • Reviewed and merged/fixed Michael Vogt's kernel crash apport branch
  • Set up work items generation for mobile team

Sponsoring:

  • glibmm2.4, gnome-control-center, gnome-session, gnome-system-tools, gnome-themes, libgnomekbd, nautilus, ubuntuone-client, ubuntuone-storage-protocol, gvfs
  • Reviewed sponsor syncs: dh-ocaml, eet, sip4-qt3, libv4l, tomboy
  • reviewed, but not uploaded: zephyr, glibmm2.4

Luke Yelavich (TheMuso)

Accessibility

  • Further work on the gnome-speech replacement specification, probably at the point where speech-dispatcher can be moved to main and gnome-speech can be demoted. Audio code bug fixing still needs to happen, and i will need good audio coders to help with that, so will be asking various lists for assistance.
  • Updated onboard to 0.90.2 in karmic.
  • Tested empathy for accessibility problems. A couple have been found relating to contact list reading for screen readers, as well as changing online status. Will check upstrea to see if bugs have bene filed, and if not, will do so.

Audio

  • Audio bug triaging, bugs in question are against pulseaudio, alsa userspace, and the kernel for hardware enablement.
  • Sent Kees' comments upstrea re rtkit, no response yet.
  • Built latest git master of gnome-media to see what has changed re pulse and card profiles, but it seems nothing UI related has been done, so nothing new yet.
  • Tested audio via HDMI again to make sure it works, and make sure pulse can be set to use HDMI, even if only using pavucontrol. Once the new pulse applet supports card profiles it should be easy for a user to choose the output they want.

Misc

  • Tested blueman and gnome-bluetooth with the same results as Jerone's testing.
  • Found some weird behavior with proprietary NVIDIA drivers version 180 and my notebook. More debugging required to work out whats going on.

Robert Ancell (robert_ancell)

Sebastien Bacher (seb128)

(short week tuesday was a national holiday)

  • GNOME 2.27.4 updates: libwnck gnome-desktop gnome-panel libgnomekbd

evolution gdm glib gtk

  • fixed some karmic desktop issues
  • spent some time investigating gvfs hardy sru issue
  • updated gjs and gnome-shell in the desktop team ppa, got the gjs

tarball version in karmic universe

  • updated gnome-media to ship the upstream pulseaudio capplet by

default now

  • looked at a gdm crasher issue and backported a upstream cvs change

after IRC discussion

  • looked at new gtk not having a png loader on amd64, the issue has

been fixed after a rebuild, could be a race in the build somewhere

  • desktop bugs triage
  • sponsoring: gtksourceview gnome-session gnome-nettool gnome-session

gnome-python-desktop empathy gnome-pkg-tools gdm totem

=== Tony Espy (awe)

  • Updated connman to latest upstream release (0.23+git.head) and

proposed a merge with master;

  • Finished testing and re-working nm-applet dialog focus/enter patch(

LP: 392362 ). Decided to forgo making the auto-focus work for 802.1x due the nested nature of the dialog, will enter a new bug to track. Proposed a merge to 0.7.1.head.

  • Prepared ScanNow topic branch and proposed merge to 0.7.1.head.

  • Re-Installed Jaunty on my macbook pro; tested backport of udev to

Jaunty for asac.

Till Kamppeter (tkamppeter)

  • HAL deprecation: Tested Tim Waughs new udev callouts to make Plug'n'Print udev-based on my typical desktop configuration of 10 HP printers (Thanks to HP) connected to my laptop via 3 USB hubs. Now I get all 10 printers correctly enabling and disabling when turning them on and off, at least one by one. Fax queues on HP's multi-function devices are not yet supported, but they will come soon.

  • Uploaded foo2zjs to hide the menu entry of the new little GUI applet to reset the paper-out status of the HP LaserJet 10xx series. This program is specific to a few printer models and therefore should not be in the desktop menus by default (LP: #396271). improved also the UI strings for the menu entry (LP: #398958).

  • Answered and triaged printing-related bugs.

IRC Logs

[17:30] * rickspencer3_ taps gavel
[17:30] <Keybuk> you see your desktop session (or gdm) underneath?
[17:30] <mat_t> pitti: and yes, ultimately the OS switcher should be available in gdm and desktop, too
[17:30] * rickspencer3_ ahem
[17:30] <pitti> mat_t: thanks
[17:30] * pitti STFU
[17:30] * Riddell googles gavel
[17:30] * seb128 is there
[17:30] <rickspencer3_> ArneGoetje: asac bryce kenvandine awe seb128 pitti Riddell
[17:30] <mat_t> pitti: we'll talk more tomorrow, thanks!
[17:31] <asac> good day
[17:31] <rickspencer3_> sorry to interrupt the conversation
[17:31] <tkamppeter> hi
[17:31] <rickspencer3_> mat_t: feel free to hang out for our meeting
[17:31] <rickspencer3_> hi tkamppeter
[17:31] <mat_t> rickspencer3_: sure, pleasure!
[17:31] <rickspencer3_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2009-07-21<<BR>> [17:32] <rickspencer3_> we start with actions from the previous meeting
[17:32] <rickspencer3_> please see the wiki for status there
[17:32] <rickspencer3_> nothing to discuss, I think
[17:33] <rickspencer3_> I will ask TheMuso about accessibility + empathy in the Eastern edition meeting
[17:33] <pitti> what was the a11y webkit result?
[17:33] <pitti> right
[17:33] <rickspencer3_> I have an announcement about bluetooth
[17:33] <seb128> GNOME is still discussing the topic
[17:33] <seb128> (webkit)
[17:33] <rickspencer3_> I arrange it so that we can all spend up to about $50 US on bluetooth equipment ...
[17:33] <seb128> discussion is active on d-d-l
[17:33] <asac> thx seb128
[17:33] * rickspencer3_ sorry
[17:34] <rickspencer3_> go ahead
[17:34] <seb128> rickspencer3_, that was all ;-)
[17:34] <asac> seb128: can you add archive pointers to wiki?
[17:34] <asac> list archive
[17:34] <seb128> asac, will do when they reach consensus
[17:34] <rickspencer3_> I always manage that in the most awkward manner, don't I?
[17:34] <seb128> lol
[17:35] * rickspencer3_ tries not to interrupt again
[17:35] <asac> rickspencer3_: good news. wonder how we can coordinate that we have different devices. maybe we should setup a wiki page with bt hardware owned by desktopers?
[17:35] <rickspencer3_> asac: great
[17:35] <rickspencer3_> idea
[17:35] <seb128> do we have a list of "common devices"?
[17:35] <seb128> ie things we should be testing
[17:35] <rickspencer3_> I wanted to say, don't use the subsidy unless you are willing to ensure that you get it working for Karmic!
[17:36] <rickspencer3_> seb128: good question, I don't know
[17:36] <rickspencer3_> I was going to suggest we all try to get "different" things
[17:36] <asac> i think for dell hardware we have superm1 ... so maybe thats covered
[17:36] <rickspencer3_> like if we all get the same headset, it won't be so useful
[17:36] <pitti> so I can test obex and GPRS tethering here, I don't have audio hw
[17:36] * kenvandine will get bt headset
[17:36] <rickspencer3_> asac: would you be willing to set up the wiki page to track?
[17:37] <awe> i just bought a new headset this morning. good timing i guess! :)
[17:37] <asac> rickspencer3_: i will
[17:37] <Riddell> the getting it working part is probably quite hard in my case, I don't think KDE bluetooth is in a great state
[17:37] <asac> on this front i would like to push back the decision on what i default for a week.
[17:37] <rickspencer3_> ACTION: asac to set up wiki page to track bluetooth devices for desktop team
[17:37] <Riddell> but worth trying
[17:37] <rickspencer3_> Riddell: should we be helping with that?
[17:38] <rickspencer3_> I'm not sure on how much infrastructure is cross desktop
[17:38] <asac> i got side tracked by too many things this week; also i think we need to get latest gnome-bluetooth in the archive to do the final evaluation
[17:38] <rickspencer3_> asac: ack
[17:38] * rickspencer3_ notes asac had a very full week
[17:38] <pitti> ah, so that could fix some of the gripes I mentinoed on the ML (hangs, etc)
[17:38] <asac> Riddell: could you find out about the current KDE state on bluetooth?
[17:39] <Riddell> rickspencer3_: needs some upstream love to get up to get it up to date with the current infrastructure, it would be nice if we did help but then there's a load of stuff that would be nice that we're already trying to find time to do
[17:39] <Riddell> asac: yes I should
[17:39] <asac> knowing that it doesnt work is better than not knowing that
[17:39] <rickspencer3_> ACTION: Riddell to report on current state of BT in Kubuntu Karmic
[17:40] <rickspencer3_> I suppose we should all try our devices in Kubuntu as well
[17:40] <rickspencer3_> ok, if you have questions about expensing the bluetooth gear, please let me know
[17:40] <rickspencer3_> move on?
[17:40] * rickspencer3_ hands mic to kenvandine
[17:40] <rickspencer3_> partner update
[17:40] <kenvandine> partner update
[17:40] <pitti> nice choir
[17:41] <kenvandine> everyone can view the current u1 integration status at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/DesktopIntegration/Status<<BR>> [17:41] <kenvandine> progressing
[17:41] <kenvandine> got more MIRs this week and more coming for next week
[17:41] <kenvandine> the new packages are trickling in
[17:41] <asac> ack. i saw my queue growing
[17:42] <kenvandine> firefox extension and desktopcouch should be in REVU by the end of the week
[17:42] <pitti> I currently have some stomachaid to fit them on the CDs
[17:42] <kenvandine> evo couch integration is in revu now
[17:42] <pitti> (later)
[17:42] <awe> kenvandine: do you know if the team plans on making symbolic links work in the karmic time frame?
[17:42] * rickspencer3_ points quietly at the GIMP
[17:42] <kenvandine> awe, i do not know
[17:42] <kenvandine> got a bug #?
[17:42] <awe> no
[17:43] <kenvandine> ok, i can ask
[17:43] <pitti> please file one, though
[17:43] <rickspencer3_> U1 does not work with symlinks?
[17:43] <rickspencer3_> that explains a lot
[17:43] <kenvandine> yeah, i suspect there is one already
=== ember_ is now known as ember
[17:43] <awe> me too, but i'll check
[17:43] <kenvandine> rickspencer3_, not outside of the Ubuntu One dir
[17:43] <kenvandine> also
[17:43] <kenvandine> gtk-contact-picker has been moved out of scope for karmic
[17:44] <kenvandine> screen sharing might get post poned as well, not sure yet
[17:44] <rickspencer3_> ah
[17:44] <kenvandine> we should get that with telepathy anyway
[17:44] <rickspencer3_> so those can be reflected in your table next week
[17:44] <kenvandine> so it would just be the u1 integration that would get punted
[17:44] <kenvandine> rickspencer3_, yes
[17:44] <rickspencer3_> sweet
[17:44] <kenvandine> DX update
[17:45] <kenvandine> fusa rework (SUS) will be ready to integrate at the sprint
[17:45] <kenvandine> so should be good times :)
[17:45] <pitti> "SUS"?
[17:45] <kenvandine> the replacement for fusa
[17:45] <rickspencer3_> slow user switcher?
[17:45] <kenvandine> not sure what it stands for :)
[17:45] <kenvandine> hehe
[17:46] <kenvandine> Status-Users-Session
[17:46] <rickspencer3_> kenvandine: relative to Dx, I'd like to see some progress in making the GDM greeter *look* nicer
[17:46] <kenvandine> i guess the three things it controls
[17:46] <rickspencer3_> I'm seeing if I can get some resources for that
[17:46] <kenvandine> rickspencer3_, yeah... i think there is some debate about that
[17:46] <rickspencer3_> oh?
[17:46] <kenvandine> well nobody is working on it yet
[17:46] <rickspencer3_> right, that's what I would like to fix, if possible
[17:46] <kenvandine> and i think there isn't agreement on how
[17:46] <pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Karmic/LoginExperience<<BR>> [17:46] <kenvandine> like modify what is there
[17:46] <kenvandine> or write a new greeter
[17:47] <kenvandine> i think they are discussing it
[17:47] <rickspencer3_> pitti: right, but that's functional
[17:47] <mat_t> rickspencer3_ I'm hoping to have a meeting with sabdfl next week to discuss
[17:47] <rickspencer3_> I'd at least like to see some "skinning", even if we can't make functional changes
[17:47] <mat_t> "skinning" is the plan minimum
[17:47] <rickspencer3_> but there may not be resources for that even, and we'll just live with the default for Karmic
[17:47] <pitti> rickspencer3_: not really functional, most of the functinoality there is already present
[17:47] <kenvandine> mat_t, good
[17:48] <pitti> except for the autologin configuration, which we committed to anyway
[17:48] <rickspencer3_> ok
[17:48] <kenvandine> that is all i have
[17:48] <rickspencer3_> ACTION: rickspencer3 to update on gdm greeter skinning resources at next meeting
[17:48] <rickspencer3_> thanks kenvandine
[17:48] <Le-Chuck_ITA> Hi all, there's an ubuntu-specific bug in gnome-volume-control: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-media/+bug/400820<<BR>> [17:48] <ubottu> Ubuntu bug 400820 in gnome-media "gnome-volume-control-applet takes up to 40% cpu" [Low,Confirmed]
[17:49] <seb128> Le-Chuck_ITA, you are in the middle of a meeting there
[17:49] <Le-Chuck_ITA> sorry
[17:49] <rickspencer3_> Le-Chuck_ITA: no problems
[17:49] <rickspencer3_> feel free to hang out, we'll get back to you when done
[17:49] <rickspencer3_> :)
[17:49] <Le-Chuck_ITA> change the topic perhaps, bye and have fun :)
[17:49] <rickspencer3_> so where were we
[17:49] <seb128> Le-Chuck_ITA, we don't change the code so no reason for it to be ubuntu specific
[17:49] <rickspencer3_> right
[17:49] * rickspencer3_ hands mic to Riddell
[17:49] <Riddell> Kubuntu Update
[17:50] <Riddell> -Alpha 3 currently blocked on a problem in Ubiquity, currently testing a fix
[17:50] <Riddell> -Social from the start now implemented, microblogging and opendesktop applet on desktop, kopete-facebook installed, still some touching up to make sure it doesn't get in people's way
[17:50] <Le-Chuck_ITA> seb128: do not want to break your meeting but read the bug and then eventually complain with the gnome developers who said it's ubuntu specific!
[17:50] <Riddell> -Kubuntu Netbook now has settings package and should see its first release with alpha 3
[17:50] <rickspencer3_> Le-Chuck_ITA: seb128 please wait until after the meeting, we are done soon
[17:50] <rickspencer3_> thanks :)
[17:50] <Riddell> (although currently it's just the desktop with different font sizes, that'll change though)
[17:50] <Riddell> -New Kubuntu council elected
[17:51] <Riddell> -ayatana patches merged upstream and backported to our packages, notifications now shared between KDE and Gnome, result!
[17:51] <rickspencer3_> !
[17:51] <kenvandine> woot!
[17:51] <mat_t> nicely done!
[17:51] <pitti> congrats!
[17:52] <Riddell> and the freedesktop.org process seems to be making progress following GCDS (agateux's ayatana work highlighted that it wasn't currently working as it should)
[17:52] <Riddell> -Question: when is apport being turned on? we have some experimental stuff and upstream are getting bug reports that would be better sent to us
[17:52] <Riddell> </end>
[17:53] <rickspencer3_> Thanks Riddell
[17:53] <pitti> Riddell: apport> last night
[17:54] <Riddell> "fixed yesterday" always a good answer :)
[17:54] <bryce> pitti, oh apport has been off? ah that explains a bit...
[17:54] <asac> hehe
[17:54] <pitti> bryce: it doesn't make much sense for the initial wave of merges, syncs, and upstream betas
[17:54] <pitti> stuff gets fixed faster than people can report/process/close/test
[17:54] <bryce> shucks here I thought I was making such headway against the bug influx for a change :-)
[17:54] * rickspencer3_ has empathy and evo crashes to apport
[17:55] <pitti> but I think alpha-3 is a good cutting point
[17:55] <bryce> yeah makes sense
[17:55] <pitti> bryce: that was the idea :)
[17:55] <pitti> (I'm serious)
[17:55] <rickspencer3_> lol
[17:55] <seb128> no need to collect thousand of bugs which will be deprecated before we look at those
[17:55] <rickspencer3_> right
[17:55] * bryce nods
[17:55] <rickspencer3_> pitti: seb128 that was a good idea
[17:56] <seb128> note that we do that every cycle ;-)
[17:56] * rickspencer3_ takes note
[17:56] <rickspencer3_> learn a little bit every turn of the crank ;)
[17:56] <rickspencer3_> move on?
[17:56] <rickspencer3_> support bugs ....
[17:56] <rickspencer3_> this is just a quick think about when our support team escalates bugs to us
[17:57] <rickspencer3_> please note that the key thing they need is for us to respond quickly with the status
[17:57] <rickspencer3_> rather then necessarily fix the bug
[17:57] <rickspencer3_> note that the process is covered on the wiki
[17:57] <bryce> rickspencer3_, that's a good point but can you explain how that works for them?
[17:57] <pitti> on the discussion we agreed on them assigning to canonical-*-team, is it that?
[17:57] <rickspencer3_> please assign the bug to yourself, and ping me
[17:57] * rickspencer3_ gets link
[17:58] <pitti> (and we review/assign to a person/comment and unassign)
[17:58] <rickspencer3_> sorry world, this is an internal link
[17:58] <rickspencer3_> http://wiki.canonical.com/SupportDistroEscelation<<BR>> [17:58] <rickspencer3_> pitti: sure, that's fine
[17:58] <asac> https://wiki.canonical.com/SupportDistroEscalation is the right one
[17:58] <rickspencer3_> this is a reminder to do that
[17:59] <bryce> rickspencer3_, i.e. if it is a bug reported against jaunty, is it enough to let them know when it's fixed in karmic, or do we also owe a backport to fix the customer's machine? (sometimes backporting is easy, sometimes it's a PITA)
[17:59] <rickspencer3_> and a reminder that the goal is to allow support to give the customer a status update asap
[17:59] <rickspencer3_> rather than fix the bug asap
[17:59] <rickspencer3_> bryce: just tell them the status first
[18:00] <rickspencer3_> they want to be responsive to the customer with information first
[18:00] <pitti> the primary idea of this process is to connect the right people and evaluate the status/cost/etc.
[18:00] <pitti> often, support cases are fine with a valid workaround, or even a "works for me" PPA package
[18:00] <pitti> but we had cases where important bugs were just ignored, since they weren't assigned, and we didn't know about them, etc.
[18:01] <rickspencer3_> pitti: right, and we recently had an opposite case, where a less important bug was escelated
[18:01] <pitti> bryce: so if you say that a fix is hard to backport (like, KMS fixes a machine), this should be said so in the bug
[18:01] <rickspencer3_> and the engineer, trying to do the right thing, invested hours in trying to fix the bug
[18:01] <bryce> is there a listing of bugs support is waiting for response on, or do we need to track those ourselves?
[18:02] <rickspencer3_> bryce: you should be contacted directly in irc by the QA team if a support bug is escelated to you
[18:02] <rickspencer3_> you don't have to pole
[18:02] <rickspencer3_> make sense?
[18:02] <bryce> rickspencer3_, right and that's working fine
[18:03] <pitti> bryce: no polling, please; it's the support/business team's responsibility to initiate the process
[18:03] <bryce> rickspencer3_, often though after the initial go around I don't hear back from them, but I know the bug's still open, so I never know if the workaround/status update was sufficient for their purposes, or if they want me to keep plugging away at doing a backport or whatever
[18:04] <rickspencer3_> after your initial reply, they will follow up with you if they need anything else
[18:04] <bryce> alright
[18:04] <rickspencer3_> that's why it's important to ensure that the bug is assigned
[18:04] <rickspencer3_> so that it can be *unassigned*
[18:04] <pitti> and has the right status
[18:04] <rickspencer3_> yes
[18:04] <pitti> i. e. "incomplete" or "wontfix" are quite clear on whose side the ball is
[18:05] <pitti> (for the stable task)
[18:05] * rickspencer3_ hands mic to pitti
[18:06] <pitti> so, we have alpha-3 on Thursday
[18:06] <rickspencer3_> release stuff
[18:06] <pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus reflects our current status
[18:06] <pitti> looking fairly good so far
[18:06] <pitti> we managed to get the structural changes planned for alpha-3 all settled by last week
[18:06] <pitti> and the current CDs now look reasonable
[18:07] <pitti> my main issue with them is size
[18:07] <pitti> I spent some time fixing overflows, but they are still too big
[18:07] <pitti> so, any idea about downsizing appreciated
[18:07] <pitti> we currently have quite a lot of library/functionality duplication
[18:07] <seb128> documentation languagepacks?
[18:07] <pitti> the soyuz support for /usr/share/gnome/help is underway, but not done yet
[18:07] <pitti> (or, rather, the buildd changes)
[18:07] <rickspencer3_> pitti: didn't we decide this weeks ago?
[18:08] <rickspencer3_> move the GIMP off the disk if needed?
[18:08] * rickspencer3_ ducks
[18:08] <pitti> we have stuff like xul vs. gtkhtml vs. xulrunner, or old vs. new policykit, etc.
[18:08] <pitti> rickspencer3_: next against the wall, but it's "just" 6 MB
[18:08] <pitti> we already dropped documentation to fit empathy and general growth
[18:08] <asac> pitti: xul vs. xulrunner?
[18:09] <pitti> gimp removal will immediately be consumed by erlang plus couch db
[18:09] <rickspencer3_> ouch
[18:09] <pitti> and we need to fit in kenvandine's huge list of new packages still
[18:09] <bryce> pitti, rickspencer3_: You can take nv → nouveau off the planned plumbing changes. we'll shoot for getting kms enabled in nouveau but I don't think that it'll be stable enough to have on as the default
[18:09] <pitti> bryce: oh, ok
[18:09] <kenvandine> pitti, yeah they really add up
[18:09] <pitti> bryce: done
[18:09] <bryce> pitti, I figure we should EITHER do nouveau+kms, or nouveau+by-default, not both. And KMS seems more important
[18:09] <rickspencer3_> pitti: are you looking for a "permanent" solution, or just for the alpha?
[18:10] <asac> what is using gtkhtml on CD?
[18:10] <pitti> rickspencer3_: the alpha is fine
[18:10] <pitti> a more permanent solution
[18:10] <rickspencer3_> what about removing the games package for the alpha?
[18:10] <pitti> asac: primarily evolution so far, but fixing that isn't trivial (and certainly not the type of thing we do ourselves)
[18:10] <asac> oh right. evo. for a moment i thought it was not on CD ;)
[18:10] <pitti> and we still don't have a single langpack
[18:10] * seb128 slaps asac
[18:11] <rickspencer3_> lol
[18:11] <seb128> pitti, expect clutter to maybe be added to the CD soon too
[18:11] * rickspencer3_ groans
[18:11] <pitti> ..
[18:11] <asac> how much oversizing are we lookg at atm?
[18:11] <pitti> anyway, whenever you stumble about something, please tell me
[18:11] <seb128> drop openoffice?
[18:11] * seb128 runs
[18:11] <pitti> asac: I managed to squeeze it < 700 MB for alpha-3
[18:12] <pitti> it's more of a longer-term problem
[18:12] <pitti> most of the OLS stuff didn't land for a3 yet
[18:12] <kenvandine> they will be small, but do add up
[18:12] <rickspencer3_> fewer games perhaps would saves some space?
[18:12] <pitti> for now I dropped bzr and sl-modem from ship, rebuilt perl against db4.7 (dropping db4.6), stuff like that
[18:12] <pitti> rickspencer3_: yeah, they are quite big
[18:13] <rickspencer3_> robert_ancell would need to refactor the packages quite a bit, right?
[18:13] * crevette would suggest to shave gnome-games
[18:13] <asac> pitti: can you do another CD spin please? i think i communicated to the wrong person (steve) that ffox 3 was going to be uploaded today (which is done now)
[18:13] <kenvandine> rickspencer3_, i think robert_ancell is already planning on that
[18:13] <pitti> asac: tomorrow morning's dailies will probably be "the" images
[18:13] <seb128> rickspencer3_, we were speaking about splitting gnome-games
[18:13] <rickspencer3_> kenvandine: right,but "planning" and "doing" aren't always the same
[18:13] <pitti> asac: live build currently running, but more for smoke testing
[18:13] <seb128> rickspencer3_, but that will win 1.5meg
[18:13] <asac> ok thats good enough
[18:13] <seb128> rickspencer3_, ie not a lot
[18:13] <rickspencer3_> only 1.5?
[18:14] <seb128> yes, games are 2d cards, etc games
[18:14] <pitti> 1.5 MB isn't to be sneezed at
[18:14] <seb128> we already splitted documentation
[18:14] <rickspencer3_> I think this might need some more focused thought
[18:14] <pitti> I guess we can't build empathy with gtkhtml or xul?
[18:14] <pitti> to drop webkit?
[18:14] <seb128> pitti, no
[18:14] <pitti> nothing else is using it, right?
[18:14] <rickspencer3_> pitti: how do you suggest we go about making this deciscion?
[18:14] <seb128> pitti, and GNOME will bring webkit in anyway
[18:14] <seb128> pitti, well if GNOME decide webkit is a11y ready it will be install by default
[18:15] <seb128> yelp, etc will use it
[18:15] <pitti> so we have one app using webkit, one app using gtkhtml, one app using xul
[18:15] <asac> seb128: which components besides devhelp and yelp?
[18:15] <seb128> if it's not we will not build empathy with it
[18:15] <rickspencer3_> perhaps a table with less important apps, and how much space they would save would be a good starting point
[18:15] <asac> seb128: err devhel pisnt on CD
[18:15] <mpt> bug 376744
[18:15] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 376744 in gnome-games "Split gnome-games into one game per package" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/376744<<BR>> [18:15] <pitti> asac: I'm not counting devhelp (not installed by default), but indeed, yelp is the 4th
[18:15] <seb128> asac, yelp and evolution for the rendering maybe
[18:15] <rickspencer3_> along with a sense of how much space we will need
[18:15] <pitti> rickspencer3_: for games? ubuntu-devel@ discussion?
[18:15] <rickspencer3_> not just games .. the whole problem
[18:16] <seb128> mpt, the bug is outdated there is an ongoing email discussion with pitti and robert_ancell
[18:16] <aboSamoor> I upgraded from jaunty to karmic, and I got a black screen instead of gnome login, any help ?
[18:16] <rickspencer3_> it seems like we can generate some ideas here, but the actual decision making process will need to me somewhat more systematic
[18:16] <pitti> rickspencer3_: ah; well, I wouldn't do that on a ML, too many people and too much bikeshedding
[18:16] <seb128> aboSamoor, try #ubuntu
[18:16] <rickspencer3_> pitti: right
[18:16] <bryce> aboSamoor, --> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Troubleshooting/<<BR>> [18:16] <pitti> rickspencer3_: in fact, desktop team meeting seems like the right forum for this IMHO?
[18:16] * kenvandine agrees with pitti
[18:16] <mpt> seb128, I don't see anything outdated about it, and it was reopened five days ago.
[18:16] <rickspencer3_> pitti: agreed, but I think we need some more structure before we decide
[18:17] <rickspencer3_> more documented facts
[18:17] <pitti> it's a well-known problem, discussed twice every cycle :)
[18:17] <seb128> mpt, it lacks argument about the discussion we had by email since
[18:17] <seb128> mpt, I will update it
[18:17] <mpt> great
[18:18] <pitti> s/firefox/epiphany+webkit/? :-)
[18:18] * pitti ducks from asac
[18:18] <bryce> pitti, since IIRC windows comes with a couple games, it would seem prudent to also keep at least a couple games. Solitaire and Mines. The other games are fun but maybe not so interesting to a newb
[18:18] <asac> pitti: well, ephy+webkit would be nice to have at all
[18:18] <pitti> bryce: yes, I wouldn't like to kick them all
[18:18] <davmor2> pitti: issues with codec selector using rhythmbox it's trying to find gsteramer input-selector rather than the mp3 codec
[18:18] <asac> its not yet decided upstream even
[18:19] <pitti> davmor2: later, please (meeting)
[18:19] <pitti> ok, I'm done
[18:19] <asac> so most likely we end up with another self-made gecko port for epiphany
[18:19] <pitti> if something catches your eye in your daily work, please let meknow
[18:19] <seb128> asac, sudo apt-get install epiphany-webkit
[18:19] * asac being pessimistic
[18:19] <pitti> but so far, big kudos to the team for a nice alpha-3 status
[18:20] <pitti> the biggest wart so far is "two mixer applets in the panel"
[18:20] <pitti> we had far worse
[18:21] <seb128> ;-)
[18:21] * pitti hands mike back to rickspencer3_
[18:21] <rickspencer3_> ok
[18:21] <rickspencer3_> any other business?
[18:22] <rickspencer3_> One last thing ...
[18:22] <rickspencer3_> I was thinking about all the cool stuff in Karmic ...
[18:22] <tkamppeter> I have updated the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Halsectomy, the replacement for hal-cups-utils is under heavy developm,ent currently.
[18:22] <pitti> oh, wrt. cool stuff; please everybody check https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicKoala/TechnicalOverview if I forgot something
[18:22] <tkamppeter> So probably alpha-4 will do Plug'n'Print via udev.
[18:23] <pitti> tkamppeter: \o/
[18:23] <rickspencer3_> yeah I was able to just down a bunch of stuff in like one minute, check wiki for this meeting
[18:23] <rickspencer3_> tkamppeter: great news
[18:24] <tkamppeter> I have also completed a script on the OpenPrinting server to auto-build driver packages. So in the Karmic age we will probably have auto download of binary driver packages.
[18:24] <rickspencer3_> neat
[18:24] <rickspencer3_> that's been a goal of yours for a while, I think
[18:24] <pitti> (do I hear a "we can drop some from the CDs" there?)
[18:24] <rickspencer3_> hehe
[18:25] <pitti> (although that's unrelated, we can still have them packaged)
[18:25] <Riddell> tkamppeter: will that mean I need to make changes to system-config-printer-kde?
[18:26] <tkamppeter> Riddell, I will soon upload a new system-config-printer, at that stage you have also to resync with the 1.1.x git to catch the new udev part.
[18:26] <Riddell> mm, ok
[18:27] <tkamppeter> Riddell, This part of s-c-p replaces the hal-cups-utils package then, so s-c-p will obsolete out hal-cups-utils (we have to go through the bugs to see what goes away and what goes to s-c-p).
[18:28] <asac> pitti: removed me from jabber?
[18:28] <tkamppeter> Riddell: Stop, can be that there is nothing to do for you. The udev stuff is all non-GUI background code, so it goes into system-config-printer-common.
[18:29] <pitti> asac: sorry, empathy bug
[18:29] <asac> pitti: ah ok Wink ;) ... i will rerequest
[18:29] <tkamppeter> Riddell: There I put it in and it is simply there, also for you.
[18:29] <Riddell> tkamppeter: ok we'll see what breaks, I hope to find a bit of time for s-c-p-k love anyway
[18:29] <pitti> asac: moving between groups copies instead of moves, and deleting the copy deletes the other one as well
[18:30] <kenvandine> hehe... sub-optimal :)
[18:30] <rickspencer3_> oops
[18:30] <asac> pitti: yeah. but seems it auto authorized at least
[18:30] <rickspencer3_> any other business?
[18:30] <seb128> no
[18:30] <kenvandine> nope
[18:30] <rickspencer3_> thanks to pitti for organizing alpha3 !!
[18:30] <asac> thanks!
[18:30] <tkamppeter> Riddell: Tim is working a lot on the GUI, too, so you should try to catch up with him (I did not look into the newest GUI changes of 1.1.x yet).
[18:31] <rickspencer3_> also, Karmic is already a great release, I can't wait until we release this!
[18:31] <rickspencer3_> it's going to be epic
[18:31] <pitti> rickspencer3_: I'm just next in the RM food chain :/
[18:31] * rickspencer3_ taps gavel

[00:00] <rickspencer3_> well, guess it's time to meet?
[00:00] <rickspencer3_> robert_ancell: TheMuso?
[00:00] <TheMuso> Hey rickspencer3_.
[00:01] <rickspencer3_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2009-07-21<<BR>> [00:01] <rickspencer3_> so it seemed like it worked well last week, when we only covered highlights?
[00:01] <TheMuso> yes
[00:01] <rickspencer3_> do either of you have agenda items?
[00:01] <TheMuso> no
[00:01] <rickspencer3_> robert_ancell: ?
[00:01] <robert_ancell> no
[00:01] <rickspencer3_> alrighty, then
[00:02] <rickspencer3_> in terms of action items from last week ...
[00:02] <rickspencer3_> ACTION: TheMuso to test accessibility of empathy built with webkit
[00:02] * TheMuso tested empathy
[00:02] <TheMuso> I think I documented it in my activity report.
[00:02] * TheMuso checks.
[00:02] <TheMuso> Yes, I did.
[00:03] <rickspencer3_> TheMuso: you mentioned a couple of bugs, yes
[00:03] <rickspencer3_> but are you concerned about moving to empathy in Karmic?
[00:03] <rickspencer3_> do you feel that the issues can be reasonably addressed, or do you see a significant risk
[00:03] <TheMuso> TO elaborate, the dialogs and menus are fine, but the contact list is not properly read. The only way to get contact list items read is to open chat windows for each of them, and close the window again.
[00:03] <TheMuso> Online status combo was not readable properly.
[00:03] <rickspencer3_> hmmm
=== asac is now known as asac
[00:04] <rickspencer3_> is this a regression for pidgin?
[00:04] <TheMuso> As far as my knowledge of the architecture goes, I think they can be addressed, but they may end up being bugs in webkit.
[00:04] <TheMuso> Yes this regresses from the accessible use of pidgin.
[00:04] <rickspencer3_> ok
[00:04] <TheMuso> It also doesn't help that as far as I have checked, there is no expanded orca support for empathy.
[00:04] <rickspencer3_> I would like to see release blocking bugs for this
[00:04] <TheMuso> Ok.
[00:04] <rickspencer3_> so that if they are not fixed by, say, beta, we pull empathy and switch back to pidgin
[00:05] <TheMuso> Ok.
[00:05] <rickspencer3_> we should discuss with the rest of the team, but this seems reasonable to me
[00:05] <rickspencer3_> thoughts?
[00:05] <TheMuso> me to.
[00:05] <rickspencer3_> robert_ancell: ?
[00:05] <rickspencer3_> thoughts
[00:06] <robert_ancell> I agree we should block on these issues
[00:06] <robert_ancell> If we make enough noise people will hopefully step up and fix them
[00:06] <rickspencer3_> ACTION: TheMuso to target bugs for empathy accessibility to karmic, and to set to appropriate milestone (beta)
[00:06] <rickspencer3_> ok, thanks
[00:06] <rickspencer3_> thanks TheMuso
[00:06] <rickspencer3_> an announcement ...
[00:07] <rickspencer3_> I've arrange for a $50 subsidy us per canonical desktopper so that you can
[00:07] <rickspencer3_> expense some bluetooth device ...
[00:07] <rickspencer3_> provided that you agree to get it working in Karmic :)
[00:07] * TheMuso already has bluetooth hardware that works,.
[00:07] <rickspencer3_> this is to encourage wider testing of BT
[00:07] <rickspencer3_> TheMuso: great news ... perhaps there is something else that may not work?
[00:07] <rickspencer3_> robert_ancell: maybe it's time for you to get a mic - :)
[00:08] <TheMuso> Well if there is, I can't think of it. I have the two common use cases being a phone and a headset.
[00:08] <robert_ancell> rickspencer3_, I read that before and I will get a mic now :)
[00:08] <rickspencer3_> lol
[00:08] <rickspencer3_> TheMuso: sounds good
[00:08] <TheMuso> The only thing that would be useful is DUn/teathering, which is an app issue.
[00:09] <rickspencer3_> missing from the wiki is the discussion of making room on the CD
[00:09] <rickspencer3_> looks like long term we are going to run out of room
[00:09] <rickspencer3_> as we make room for new features from OLS and others, especially
[00:09] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[00:09] <rickspencer3_> the games package was mentioned, as well as Gimp (by me)
[00:09] <robert_ancell> I am proposing to reduce the number of games by default
[00:10] <rickspencer3_> robert_ancell: yes, perhaps just the two or three that take up the least room ;)
[00:10] <TheMuso> There are a lot of packages that ship wav files for sounds. I should look into how they play their sounds, and see if we can't compress them to ogg.
[00:10] <robert_ancell> Not reducing that much!! :)
[00:10] <rickspencer3_> well, 1 meg is a significant savings at this point
[00:11] <rickspencer3_> lastly, Till has made some progress regarding some printing related issues, also not on the wiki yet
[00:11] <robert_ancell> The games are about 50M decompressed, I'd expect we can halve that
[00:12] <rickspencer3_> not sure that impacts either of you
[00:12] <rickspencer3_> 50 megs!
[00:12] <rickspencer3_> decompressed, I read "compressed"
[00:12] <robert_ancell> 25M compressed (i.e. as .debs)
[00:12] * TheMuso hardly prints as it is.
[00:12] <asac> (TheMuso: dun works in blueman ... though in the end it should work directly in NM/connman yes.)
[00:12] <rickspencer3_> in terms of saving space, I'd like to get a little bit systematic about finding targets of opportunity
[00:13] <TheMuso> sound files is one, as I said.
[00:13] <robert_ancell> I bought a printer the other week and it works great for me
[00:13] <rickspencer3_> robert_ancell: you have Till to thank for that
[00:13] <robert_ancell> :)
[00:13] <rickspencer3_> tkamppeter, his is impressive indeed
[00:13] <rickspencer3_> ok
[00:14] <rickspencer3_> that's it
[00:14] <rickspencer3_> any other business?
[00:14] <robert_ancell> I'm thinking of attending Linux.conf.au, proposals close this week
[00:14] <TheMuso> nothing from me.
[00:15] <rickspencer3_> robert_ancell: sounds good , but ...
[00:15] <rickspencer3_> we general have time off for one conference per year (other than UDS of course Wink ;) )
[00:15] <rickspencer3_> same with supporting travel, etc...
[00:15] <rickspencer3_> we should discuss in our next call, though
[00:15] <robert_ancell> sure, will do
[00:15] <rickspencer3_> as we can make exceptions for important things
[00:16] <rickspencer3_> so that's it for the meeting, you guys can get back to your coffee machines ;)
[00:16] <TheMuso> there is about 2.6MB of wav files in usr/share/sounds.
[00:17] <TheMuso> My coffee is a walk of a morning. :)
[00:17] <rickspencer3_> TheMuso: you are too healthy
[00:17] <TheMuso> So if we can get that down somewhat, that would be good.
[00:17] <rickspencer3_> my coffee is coffee
[00:17] <rickspencer3_> TheMuso: right, plus ogg is open goodness
[00:17] <TheMuso> Indeed.
[00:18] <rickspencer3_> in terms of fitting onto the CD, I'd like to see a bit of a system for figuring it out:
[00:18] <rickspencer3_> 1. estimate how much space will we need
[00:18] <rickspencer3_> 2. a list of things that can be done to save space
[00:18] <TheMuso> It all comes down to whether the app needing the sounds can play ogg somehow./
[00:19] <robert_ancell> Is there a summary of what is on the CD? I was looking for a package list and even finding that is hard
[00:19] <rickspencer3_> 3. a decision making process to determine which items from #2 to do

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