[[DistributedDevelopment]] steering meeting to be held in {{{#ubuntu-meeting}}} on 2010-11-17. = Agenda = * Action items * barry to start some sphinx docs to be well-integrated w/ wiki.u.c (ongoing) * poolie to start list thread to find problems which can be carried on at UDS (done) * barry to contact poolie about getting his UDS session notes into the blueprint (done) * UDD survey results (poolie) (see also [[Bazaar/Plate]]) * Bugs of interest: * http://pad.lv/674353 - graph packages built through UDD * http://pad.lv/556132 - don't drop SSH connection after sending 1GB; requested by kiko * http://pad.lv/375013 - support committing direct to stacked branches * bzr branches are too expensive to use for casual sponsoring, compared with downloading packages from my local mirror (slangasek) * [[https://launchpad.net/bugs/295274|(watch file support)]] - james_w and barry to sprint on that at uds-n * [[https://launchpad.net/bugs/653307|Import fails with missing referenced chk root keys]] * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/603395|bzr commit in a heavyweight checkout does not propagate new tags]] * [[https://launchpad.net/bugs/653832|Import fails with "trying to import version ... again"]] * [[https://launchpad.net/bugs/499684|Interface to dpkg-buildpackage inconsistent and not well documented]] * changelog merge problem (probably caused by dpkg-mergechangelogs). need more investigation by barry * Sponsoring/Patch Pilot * AOB = Summary = * Top concerns: * package import failures * gather data for usage graphs (header to mark built-from-branch) * network performance holistically * poolie is looking for someone (preferably from platform) to do a bzr team rotation = New Actions = * poolie to capture uds session notes in a wiki page, with more detail (turn it into a blueprint?) * poolie to send dump of udd survey results to mailing list * ajmitch to come up with questions/topics for next meeting (re: REVU) * poolie to send bzr rotation pitch to platform mailing list = Log = {{{ #startmeeting Meeting started at 15:00. The chair is barry_. Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] thumper, poolie, james_w ping me hi is it that time already? ajmitch: ping hi, yeah. i know the usa (canada too?) went off dst so it comes even earlier for us now [16:03] * slangasek waves hi slangasek: hi * ajmitch is here [TOPIC] agenda [16:04] New Topic: agenda barry_: hi [16:05] thumper: hi [TOPIC] action items New Topic: action items ? no agenda? i added something... * barry to start some sphinx docs to be well-integrated w/ wiki.u.c (ongoing) er, yes, sorry [16:06] i've been a little ill so kind of unprepared ;) I think the wiki formatting is a bit off sorry to hear that fixing... thanks... [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20101117 LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20101117 agenda: action items, udd survey results, bugs [16:07] * barry to start some sphinx docs to be well-integrated w/ wiki.u.c (ongoing) not done, but i'd like to keep it on the list agree * poolie to start list thread to find problems which can be carried on at UDS (ongoing) i didn't want to take this off without poolie's input and... [16:08] * barry to contact poolie about getting his UDS session notes into the blueprint ah, i don't think we had a new thread, but i did gather stuff from old ones i sent a brief mail poolie: i know you posted to ml, but i haven't read it yet with a link should we turn them into a blueprint? it's more a bunch of ideas and issues than an actual blueprint poolie: thanks. i think that covers both items perhaps we should capture them on a wiki page in more detail than my mail i'll take that on poolie: thanks. i do think we should have a blueprint that we can use to track work items [ACTION] poolie to capture notes from email into wiki page with more detail ACTION received: poolie to capture notes from email into wiki page with more detail poolie: which reminds me, will jelmer be joining us here after the 1st of the year? [16:10] from the 10th oh, in this meeting in particular - i hope so cool mm, but what time will that be? about 10pm? if so, i hope he can [16:11] i have no problem moving the meeting earlier to accommodate, but i think that will affect you and thumper, right? it's currently 8am for me; 7am wouldn't be a burden; 6 would be a slight burden barry_: I'm ok with an hour earlier (normally) let's see how we go okay, we can take that up when jelmer's on officially [16:12] so he'll be joining us from the start of the bzr sprint at the platform rally excellent. is that happening at the same time, or a week before/after? or maybe that's the lp sprint i'm thinking about? [16:13] (sorry, my brain is not with me today) overlapping in time and space with the (canonical internal) platform rally, that'll be great and immediately prior to the lp epic, which we will also be attending the first week i plan for us to mostly work together as a small team, of course also talking to ubuntu people and the second week i want us to do lots of work crossing the lp:bzr boundary [16:14] eg bzr people fixing things in lp and vice versa nice. i won't be able to attend the lp epic [16:15] [TOPIC] udd survey results New Topic: udd survey results -> poolie [16:16] ok, we got 82 great responses to our "how is udd for you" mostly pretty positive: net promoter score (of people who responded) very widely distributed, but with ~60% of people voting 8, 9, or 10 [16:17] lots of textual answers perhaps i'll just send a dump of raw answers to the list? +1 i don't think there's anything sensitive in there, but i'll check first or edit that out if there is probably best to anonymize the responses [16:18] the answers which score low would be interesting to read ajmitch: yep. it would be nice to see which of those map to known bugs so that's an action for me [16:19] [ACTION] poolie to send a dump of udd survey results to mlist ACTION received: poolie to send a dump of udd survey results to mlist poolie: any themes that stand out? good qn [16:20] people generally find the bzr interface nice (btw, that Bazaar/Plate page does not yet exist) reliability, including getting up to date imports error messages caan be confusing lp ui clunky it's another layer on top of a complicated stack when things work, it's great contradictory messages (i guess varying experiences) on whether git imports are good or not also varying opinions on whether they're glad or frustrated we don't use git [16:22] ;) barry_: I'll show you my clamav mess at bacon-pig if you want more use cases. perhaps not surprisingly the people with bad experiences seem to use it the least so, we need to look for the place to insert a wedge, where making things a bit better will make people use it more [16:23] ScottK: sounds great poolie: I gave it a try, wrote a long mail to the UDD list about issues I found. I don't have a sense that a lot has changed. Not sure if that's accurate or not. ScottK: if it's the mail i'm thinking of, i think we got through nearly half since it was sent earlier this year [16:24] * ScottK would be glad to try it again if significant progress has been made. maybe half by count not size poolie: OK. That's good to know. the others are definitely still on the list one interesting thing to call out from udd, is that the general things for the bzr team are - network speed, holistically (including mirroring, or shallow checkouts, etc) [16:25] It's difficult to know the state of the project as a casual observer and has it progressed enough to be worth trying again. maybe we should send a better summary of what's changed since eg the last ubuntu release? * ajmitch will need to sort out something about REVU & branches if I'm to be of use to this meeting [16:26] poolie: +1 ajmitch: yes, would you like to prepare something for 2 weeks time? [16:27] barry_: OK, I'll try & come up with some questions/suggestions at least ajmitch: great! [16:28] who wants to talk about bugs? :) [TOPIC] bugs of interest / top bugs New Topic: bugs of interest / top bugs reliability is still a big problem right now; almost 2000 failures according to http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/ i'm a little afraid this list is getting pretty long ;) slangasek: agreed. we really need to address the import failures. can't use udd if the branches aren't there [16:29] http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/language-pack-gnome-lo-base.html LINK received: http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/language-pack-gnome-lo-base.html that's a funny failure mode 696 packages failed with key AssertionError::main:import_package:import_package [16:30] debian unstable is hardly getting any updates at the moment, due to squeeze freezing oops, ECHAN so package imports in particular, as a special focus? ok james_w: I see gourmet has landed back in that failure state again in spite of your efforts :( ajmitch: It actually fits. we're still having some trouble getting enough time to work on udd things outside of bzr itself perhaps a big push on that specific thing will help us focus on it [16:31] slangasek, yeah, I'm still working on it, but it's having to fit in around other things unfortunately * slangasek nods poolie: we have bug 653307 for a different failure case, i guess we should have separate bugs for each major class of import failures? Launchpad bug 653307 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "Import fails with missing referenced chk root keys" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/653307 slangasek, I understand why we are getting the failure though now oh, good :) we have 10 "bugs of interest". do we want to go through each one? maybe take a look at the wiki page and see if there has been any progress on any of them? [16:34] barry_: 10? i see 3 on the agenda.. ... unless i reload [16:35] refresh :) let's go, quickly a graph of packages is flacoste's favorite nomination (and he sets my bonus :-) heh on the grounds that you should put metrics in place early in the use of a feature this is mostly about inserting an X-SBC field to mark a package as having been built from a branch [16:36] probably trivial to do; just needs figuring out what would be tasteful to put in it how much of the BFB infrastructure is in place for that so far? i'd also like a graph of the package-imports and/or hottest100 results according to jelmer there is infrastructure to scan it out there so that we assess the quality of our service there are graphs of them [16:37] possibly there should be better graphs? if we're going to do 10 bugs, and stay roughly within our hour, i'm going to go fairly fast poolie: please do [16:38] http://pad.lv/556132 is the top vote for Linaro - problems in conch - probably needs to be fixed upstream in twisted; i will push it LINK received: http://pad.lv/556132 is the top vote for Linaro - problems in conch - probably needs to be fixed upstream in twisted; i will push it * barry_ remembers a uds conversation about this during a walk to/from dinner poolie: I assume that is the point where ssh needs to renegotiate keys? [16:39] http://pad.lv/375013, commit to stacked branches, is Tim's top vote for the code team - it will ease some issues in building enormous branches in moderate sized vms LINK received: http://pad.lv/375013, commit to stacked branches, is Tim's top vote for the code team - it will ease some issues in building enormous branches in moderate sized vms jam: yes, apparently conch says "too hard, bye!" > bzr branches are too expensive to use for casual sponsoring, compared with downloading packages from my local mirror (slangasek) needs to be turned into a proper bug, with a number - can you do that steve? (watch file support) - james_w and barry to sprint on that at uds-n [16:40] poolie: couldn't we use stacked branch for that? rockin flacoste: for what? poolie: ack poolie: specifically, slangasek bug it can be part of the solution * flacoste trying to push Tim's bug up the chain :-) this is the thing from uds i described as "network performance holistically" [16:41] on bug 295274; i need to get back to that branch Launchpad bug 295274 in bzr-builddeb "merge-upstream shouldn't require --version when debian/watch is present" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/295274 https://launchpad.net/bugs/653307 missing chk root keys flacoste: the issue raised at UDS is that no matter how little we download, a local mirror is still a lot faster (even if we get the download to be ~ the same size as the tarball) [16:42] jam: that's compared to apt-get source right right right right - to be productive I need a good way to have the source already be local there was a discussion about being able to list the packages you are interested, and having a cron-ish script keep those up to date in a local mirror/shared repo there are a bunch of things we can usefully do - local mirrors, raw speed, etc let's give it a number, then split it into bugs for each step re the missing chk root keys [16:43] i know spiv was working on this he didn't mention it recently; i'm not sure why he stopped [16:44] james_w: do you know? no, I don't i'll ping on the bug [16:45] I think the immediate cause was his bout of illness [ACTION] slangasek to file bug on "bzr branches are too expensive to use for casual sponsoring, compared with downloading packages from my local mirror" ACTION received: slangasek to file bug on "bzr branches are too expensive to use for casual sponsoring, compared with downloading packages from my local mirror" probably poolie: Why does the distro packages file need to know if something was built from branch? https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/603395 commit in checkout doesn't propagate tags [16:46] (or flacoste) spiv is working on this and i think it should be done soon ScottK: simply to allow us to track uptake of UDD across the distro ScottK: two things: firstly, to answer "how can i get the exact source for this"; secondly and a bit pragmatically, so we can trace how much of ubuntu is using this we should split it out from the 'want a graph' bug Right, but making the packages file larger makes apt-get update slower for every single user of Ubuntu. true Surely there are less invasive ways to track this. perhaps it should not propagate to the binary? or perhaps there's a better way? there probably is i'd love suggestions and that's what i meant by making sure it was tasteful X-C should be enough, but that might require some special-casing in LP unfortunately [16:48] I think that's better than adding more noise to the Packages files. we need to decide what data we want, and then we can come up with a way to allow us to capture it ok if only there was a forum in which we could discuss what data to capture to ensure we were tracking what we wanted [16:49] there's a bug, let's capture the constraints/ideas there https://launchpad.net/bugs/653832 "trying to import version ... again" new to me [16:50] that's one that I'm looking at currently I know the immediate cause, but I'm a bit worried about what will happen when I unclog the pipe :-) cool, thanks there's a related thing that's on my plate, which is migrating the package importer onto "proper" is-managed service [16:51] currently in a holding pattern waiting for losa timeslices https://launchpad.net/bugs/499684 "Interface to dpkg-buildpackage inconsistent and not well documented" is also new to me i think that's ScottK's complaint about -- (one i share :) [16:52] it seems like a good bug report [16:53] it is a bit obscure when explaining how to use the tools to newcomers on my changelog "bug" - i haven't hit it again yet, so i'm still waiting for a specific example before i file a bug i don't think it should preempt others already in train? i should probably remove it from top bugs since it isn't one yet i think that's it for bugs, unless anybody has any other comments? [16:54] [TOPIC] * Sponsoring/Patch Pilot [16:55] New Topic: * Sponsoring/Patch Pilot please file a bug for the changelog/merge thing when you can describe it nothing else from me poolie: yep, definitely so next week we start the new regime for sponsoring. i'm up on monday and i plan to heavily encourage branches and merge proposals. i'd like to give preferential treatment to reviews in mps. (note though i can only review anyway) [16:56] this'll be a good way to get feedback about sponsoring workflow [16:57] yep, i'll keep copious notes :) that's a great idea [16:58] i'll post my thoughts to the udd mlist afterward i just wanted to mention this; i don't have much else [16:59] unless anybody has suggestions, or things to emphasize, etc... ? [TOPIC] AOB [17:00] New Topic: AOB anything else not on the agenda? sorry one more i'd like to look for someone to do a rotation onto the bzr team, ideally from platform to free up some time for them to work on this if anyone here is interested in working on something different, that's great [17:01] otherwise, think of someone else you might know who it would suit poolie: maybe a solicitation on the platform mlist? (i don't think i can take it on until the py27 transition is done) maybe someone who's been working on the same group for a few years and could do with a refresher sure, i just thought about it in the shower this morning [17:02] :) i will get the idea out there good idea awesome [ACTION] poolie to send bzr rotation pitch to platform list ACTION received: poolie to send bzr rotation pitch to platform list i'd like to also approach likely candidates individually, if we can get a shortlist cool, thanks. any other business? [17:04] i'll just mention https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bazaar/Plate (private only, sorry) as a view of what we're up to nothing else from me [17:05] I have a merge proposal for barry_, but I think that's a bit to "Other Business" poolie, ubuntu.com or canonical.com? sorry, canonical [17:06] https://wiki.canonical.com/Bazaar/Plate poolie: thanks [17:07] okay, folks. thanks again for another great meeting. see you in two weeks #endmeeting }}}