2007-01-17

Revision 1 as of 2007-01-18 09:16:40

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{{{09:05 pips1 willvdl: will you pace us through the agenda? 09:05 willvdl Well, let's get started anyway 09:05 willvdl === TECHNICAL === 09:05 willvdl If ogra were here, I'm sure he'd ask for testers... 09:06 willvdl not sure how much we can cover in tech 09:06 sbalneav I'll be doing some testing of thin client sound this weekend. 09:06 cbx33 nice one sbalneav 09:06 willvdl great, ogra mentioned sound architecture last week === cbx33 has an update on LTCM(SCP) 09:07 cbx33 I have started the LTCM spec 09:07 cbx33 it's now successfully broken up into front end and back end 09:07 cbx33 which is awesome 09:07 willvdl aha. saw those discussions 09:07 cbx33 today I worked for a little while on the tiled vnc feature that everyone wanted 09:08 cbx33 and I actually got it working 09:08 cbx33 borrowed some code from somewhere else 09:08 cbx33 but it's all GPL so we're good 09:08 willvdl sweet 09:08 cbx33 that's me done 09:08 cbx33 anyone who wants to test it for me 09:08 cbx33 shout 09:09 willvdl what does the "split" mean as such? 09:09 cbx33 well 09:09 cbx33 it will allow a KDE developer to write a kde front end for LTCM 09:09 cbx33 since they can just import the backend module and all the hard stuff is done for them 09:09 willvdl ah. with clear api etc 09:09 cbx33 indeed 09:10 cbx33 and the backend is actually tiny 09:10 cbx33 the gui takes up most code === pips1 is trying to figure out the acronym... Linux Terminal Control Manager? Erm... 09:10 Riddell cbx33: what is LTCM? 09:10 cbx33 LTSP Thin Client Manager 09:11 cbx33 however for now the vnc stuff will only be in the gnome version 09:11 willvdl looking forward to seeing it in action 09:11 cbx33 as a) no one has stepped up to write a kde version yet and b) the code I hacked up was from a gnome app and I'm not sure how well it can be split 09:12 pips1 so LTCM (LTSP Thin Client Manager) is now the official new name for SCP (Student Control Panel)? 09:12 cbx33 yes 09:12 cbx33 oh and I spotted a bug in SCP which should be fixed soon 09:12 pips1 right 09:13 willvdl I can't imagine you've had much time for the MOTD thingy? 09:13 cbx33 unfortunately no 09:13 cbx33 not yet 09:13 cbx33 It's still a possibility 09:13 cbx33 infact it's SOOO simple to implement 09:14 willvdl shall we move on? 09:14 pips1 Is anyone present expecting to be able to test Herd 2, 3, ... (besides sbalneav)? 09:14 cbx33 sure 09:14 cbx33 unfortunately I won't have time 09:15 pips1 let's move on.. 09:15 willvdl let's skip to Artwork if no-one minds? 09:15 cbx33 sure 09:15 cbx33 Lisa is sorry she can't attend this evening 09:15 willvdl === ARTWORK === 09:15 cbx33 she hasnt had a great deal of time lately....been very very busy with paid work 09:16 cbx33 but she is still working hard...and really really needs your feedback 09:16 willvdl Canonical is going to employ an ubuntu artist 09:16 cbx33 for edubuntu too? 09:16 willvdl need to see how that works out 09:17 cbx33 ok 09:17 willvdl cbx33, feedback on templates, pallettes etc? 09:17 cbx33 I think shes talking about the mock wallpaper she did a while back 09:17 cbx33 but 09:17 cbx33 I think they'll be some more before not too long to comment on 09:17 cbx33 also 09:17 cbx33 if anyeone knows of any budding artist 09:17 cbx33 please get them involved 09:18 willvdl let's tap the Ubuntu Artwork channel 09:18 willvdl make a formal "call for contributions"? 09:19 cbx33 well we have done that in the past 09:19 cbx33 I'll get lisa to mail them tonight 09:19 pips1 Does the Artwork Team have its own introduction/welcome page somewhere? 09:19 willvdl sweet. just good to voice ourselves I guess 09:19 cbx33 yes 09:19 willvdl EdubuntuArtwork 09:19 cbx33 people just don't seem keen to help out Edubuntu much 09:20 willvdl perhaps we need to make it easier for them 09:20 willvdl somehow... 09:20 highvoltage willvdl: i agree with you 09:20 cbx33 me too 09:20 cbx33 I just don;t know how 09:21 willvdl I'm don't hang around the artwork channels much or browse the contributions but there are a lot of folk contributing to Ubuntu art 09:21 cbx33 yeh 09:21 cbx33 ok I'll draft up an email... 09:21 willvdl if we have representation in those channels then well get stuff I'm sure 09:21 cbx33 ok if I run it by you willvdl ? 09:21 willvdl sure === pips1 glances at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork 09:22 willvdl Is there anyway we can merge our Artowrk "space" with the ubuntu artwork "space"? 09:22 cbx33 hmmm 09:22 cbx33 possibly I suppose 09:23 willvdl quote: feisty will be designed by cliff 09:23 LaserJock hi everybody 09:23 highvoltage hey LaserJock 09:23 willvdl as with dapper. how did that affect edubuntu back then? 09:23 LaserJock uggg 09:24 highvoltage dapper was a tough one 09:24 LaserJock willvdl: armed revolt? Smile :-) 09:24 pips1 "Feisty artwork will be design by Cliff -- the fellow who designed the Dapper look. Do not expect to be able to contribute until sabdfl releases the official work. It is closed design involving Cliff and sabdfl only." 09:24 highvoltage ogra and janew weren't very happy that they didn't have any say in the artwork 09:24 cbx33 does that include edubuntu do we know? 09:24 willvdl did edubuntu do its own artwork in dapper? 09:24 highvoltage willvdl: hired artist 09:25 willvdl for backgrounds, splash and icons? 09:25 highvoltage willvdl: except for icons 09:25 cbx33 we had a wallpaper in main though didn't we 09:25 pips1 "Currently we are attempting to collect all art related people under the ubuntu-art team on Launchpad. This has been quite successful thus far, and therefore one should consider the ubuntu-art team as a good starting point for work. For links to legacy pages, please see the following links: EdubuntuArtwork ..." 09:25 willvdl legacy pages 09:26 pips1 hmm 09:26 cbx33 sounds old 09:26 LaserJock is there a rationale behind not letting the community do the artwork? 09:26 LaserJock it seems to go back and forth, kinda annoying 09:26 pips1 yeah 09:26 willvdl http://art.ubuntu.com/main.php 09:27 willvdl anyway, it is still very valuable to have contributions regardless of closed design 09:27 cbx33 well for a start we have more than just one wallpaper 09:27 pips1 oh, I didn't know they had revanped the art.u.c site 09:27 highvoltage LaserJock: I don't think there's anythin wrong with Canonical hiring people to improve Ubuntu's artwork... but... \ 09:27 pips1 *revamped 09:27 cbx33 highvoltage, I agree 09:27 highvoltage LaserJock: if there are better community submisions, it should be considered too, imho 09:28 cbx33 maybe for get someone behind it to drive it in right direction 09:28 LaserJock highvoltage: but they won't consider them if they are already contracting people, it would be a waste of money 09:28 willvdl highvoltage, LaserJock : that is how I would expect things to be run 09:28 cbx33 so will that be for Edubuntu too.....? 09:28 cbx33 can we confirm this 09:29 willvdl just like Canonical hires kernel developers 09:29 highvoltage cbx33: by ubuntu I mean *buntu 09:29 willvdl cbx33, I will check 09:29 cbx33 ah ok 09:29 LaserJock willvdl: it's a bit different, IMO 09:29 willvdl LaserJock, only if handled badly 09:29 LaserJock which it seems to have been historically 09:29 LaserJock artwork that is 09:29 cbx33 basically how much should we push the artwork in Edubuntu 09:30 cbx33 and how much is going to be forced upon us 09:30 LaserJock the Canonical hired kernel guys work in the open with patches, ML etc. 09:30 LaserJock generally we get to see the artwork when it's released 09:30 willvdl My opinion is to push contributions anyway 09:30 willvdl what we build now can always be used later or even make it in if the process allows 09:31 willvdl plus we keep the community active 09:31 pips1 willvdl: but it's not very encouraging for designers, if the aren't any clear known "rules" 09:31 cbx33 exactl 09:31 cbx33 y 09:31 pips1 clear procedures... so you know what to expect and what not to expect 09:31 cbx33 it's pretty upsetting infact 09:31 willvdl agreed, but note that art.u.c gets contributions regardless 09:31 cbx33 when someone has worked really hard .... 09:31 cbx33 willvdl, it's a little different 09:32 LaserJock especially when the dev community all say the want a community artwork and are ignored 09:32 LaserJock *they 09:32 cbx33 because edubuntu last relase had 2 contributors 09:32 cbx33 so it makes it a little more personal 09:32 willvdl I hear you guys and agree 09:32 willvdl I'm just saying we should not stop contributing 09:33 cbx33 no, but can you see how.....in a big community like ubuntu it just means a drop in contributions 09:33 cbx33 but that with a tiny team....2 people that can make or break the contributions full stop 09:34 willvdl yeah. === pips1 reads the introduction on http://art.ubuntu.com/main.php 09:34 willvdl OK, PoA: 09:34 LaserJock especially when the community isn't consulted at all 09:34 pips1 cbx33: good point 09:34 willvdl will check on procedures, policies etc internally 09:35 cbx33 also.... 09:35 willvdl and, seperate issue, try and integrate more with artwork team for leverage? 09:35 pips1 ok, willvdl to report back at the next meeting Smile :-) 09:35 willvdl just not sure immediately how to achieve the latter 09:36 willvdl There's definately enough concern on the issue to raise it 09:37 pips1 how relevant is https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art ? 09:37 pips1 ... to edubuntu artwork, I mean 09:38 highvoltage pips1: fairly 09:38 highvoltage pips1: edubuntu inherits some of the ubuntu artwork stuff 09:38 highvoltage pips1: like firefox themes, etx 09:38 highvoltage *etc 09:38 willvdl any *buntu artwork work should include/be relevant to edubuntu IMHO 09:38 highvoltage pips1: and the edubuntu gtk theme is normally derived from whatever theme is in use on edubuntu 09:38 highvoltage I mean, Ubuntu 09:40 willvdl Okie, lets discuss further on ML and I'll try find out what I can 09:40 cbx33 ok 09:41 pips1 In that case, it might be a good idea to link to that launchpad specifications page from the artwork wiki page, so the community artists (i.e. AliasVegas) know what is done for ubuntu... 09:41 willvdl from EdubuntuArtwork? 09:41 pips1 yep 09:42 pips1 just a thought 09:42 willvdl what interests me is that the artwork team consider EdubuntuArt as legacy page 09:42 willvdl assuming the community is already integrated 09:42 cbx33 yeh...funny that 09:42 willvdl We should fix that 09:42 cbx33 i don't remember anyone talking to Lisa about it Wink ;) 09:43 willvdl it's a perception 09:43 pips1 well things are always moving fast in ubuntu land Smile :-) and it's hard to keep up with what is going on everywhere 09:43 willvdl Smile :) 09:44 willvdl shall we move to docs? 09:44 cbx33 ok 09:44 willvdl === Documentation === 09:45 willvdl I've been thinking about doc contributions somewhat 09:45 willvdl and have chatted to a number of folk 09:45 cbx33 ok 09:45 willvdl on wiki contributions vs SVN contributions 09:46 willvdl meaning wiki = open collaboration 09:46 willvdl and svn = open collaboration but large barrier 09:46 willvdl how do you folks feel? 09:47 LaserJock depends on the doc, IMO === tommy [n=tommy@83.167.116.108] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:47 willvdl true 09:47 pips1 wiki = medium barrier too, AFAIK 09:47 LaserJock if you want it stable and need to be in various formats do docbook 09:47 LaserJock with svn 09:48 willvdl yip, but the svn authors can pull their info form the wiki 09:48 willvdl if the wiki is used as the "development" space 09:48 pips1 hold on, we are talking about a variety of tools and formats here... 09:48 willvdl true 09:48 pips1 docbook = format 09:49 pips1 svn = versioned repository 09:49 pips1 wiki = versioned repository with web frontend 09:49 pips1 no? 09:50 willvdl yip 09:50 willvdl also docs in svn get packaged 09:50 LaserJock wiki also = format 09:50 pips1 willvdl: how do you imagine your "perfect" documentation process? 09:51 willvdl perfect? Smile :) 09:51 willvdl well, I'm just again trying to leverage contributions 09:51 pips1 LaserJock: ok, wiki stores the information in its own format, that's right 09:51 willvdl and was thinking back to a conversation I had with pips1 vefore the holidays 09:52 willvdl and others 09:52 willvdl being that the wiki is the easiest and most open tool and repo we have for contributions 09:53 willvdl Would something like this work?: Docs get planned and "authored" to a degree on the wiki. At logical times the SVN authors pull this info into the docbook files 09:54 pips1 well, ideally we could have a super userfriendly "frontend" tool combined with the benefits of a standard format such as docbook... 09:54 willvdl although my suggestion is contrary to using Launchpad, bug-reporting etc 09:54 pips1 how so? === pips1 isn't sure he is following willvdl 09:55 LaserJock I'm not sure that easy contribution is always the way to go though ... 09:55 willvdl perhaps LaserJock can help me here, but LP tracks the docs (in whatever format) and contributions are made in patches, bug-reports or specs 09:55 LaserJock sometimes a little barrier isn't a bad thing 09:56 LaserJock well, we have an upstream product 09:56 LaserJock people can file bugs against that 09:56 LaserJock and we can write specs 09:56 LaserJock patches are sent to the ML 09:57 willvdl perhaps we should take a step back here 09:57 willvdl and look at what docs we are needing 09:58 willvdl We need an install guide prob 09:59 willvdl release-notes & about page 10:00 willvdl and LTSP info as it forms part of our release 10:00 willvdl given the topics, and the authors, what would the best tools be? 10:03 willvdl pips1 what are your thoughts? 10:04 sbalneav Sorry to interject, but is the svn repo for the handbook still on digitalredneck? 10:04 willvdl nope. moved into docteam.u.c 10:05 sbalneav Do I still have commit? 10:05 pips1 Off the top of my head: About (Intro/Overview, Release Notes, Sources of further help, ...), Installation and Configuration Guide (Desktop Guide, Server Guide, plus specifically LTSP), Customisation ("Cookbook"), plus How to contribute to Edubuntu Project. 10:05 willvdl sbalneav, best check with mdke or someone 10:05 willvdl not sure 10:06 cbx33 sorry guys I'm gonna have to duck out, splitting headache 10:06 willvdl pips1 the "guides": meaning the ubuntu ones or our own? 10:06 cbx33 and tired 10:07 pips1 willvdl: we can probably reuse the "Ubuntu Guides", but I haven't really looked into that, so I don't really know. 10:08 willvdl I'd like to open a discussion on the handbook aim again. I think things have move along alot since it was created 10:08 LaserJock well, it's also noteworthy that Ubuntu and Kubuntu are moving away from "guides" 10:09 pips1 The Desktop Guide and the Server Guide from Ubuntu are shipped with Edubuntu anyway, right? 10:09 willvdl pips1, have you looked at the Topic Based Help spec? 10:09 willvdl thinks so 10:09 pips1 LaserJock: tell us more? 10:10 LaserJock right now, Edubuntu ships ubuntu-docs 10:10 pips1 yep 10:10 LaserJock pips1: the doc team is going for a more topic based approach 10:10 LaserJock so if we just basically created add-on topics to cover Edubuntu specifics === pips1 reads https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-based-help 10:11 LaserJock we can "blend in" with the rest of Ubuntu docs 10:11 LaserJock and there would be no duplication 10:11 willvdl LaserJock, this would be the domain of the Handbook right? 10:12 pips1 In the spec it says "The Ubuntu/Kubuntu documentation teams do not have the resources to implement a topic-based help system from scratch. So for now we should restrict our efforts to reorganizing the Desktop Guide and Server Guide, to make the documentation easier to navigate." 10:12 LaserJock willvdl: what I'm saying is that I'm not sure that a "Handbook" fits in with the way documentation in Ubuntu and upstream are heading 10:13 LaserJock it's fine for a book, or an all-inclusive PDF or something 10:13 LaserJock which I think there would be a demand for 10:13 willvdl LaserJock, I chatted to Sean Wheller about that earlier 10:13 willvdl and looked at the original aim of the handbook again 10:13 LaserJock but I think you could do that with the TBH approach anyway 10:13 willvdl and I think you're right in a sense 10:15 willvdl But the handbook aim was as an install/customisation/basic usage guide? 10:15 LaserJock it was meant by Mario to be a book 10:15 sbalneav LTSP, though, isn't something that fits well into TBH. There's a lot of pre-tech stuff, and the whole "integration into my windows network" thing's a pain. 10:15 LaserJock the one-stop shop for Edubuntu 10:15 willvdl sbalneav, I thought you might say that 10:16 willvdl LaserJock, it can still be but we need TBH to "mature" first 10:16 willvdl IMHO 10:16 sbalneav The problem with LTSP is, it's really a "tech" thing, and not a user thing. 10:16 LaserJock sbalneav: well, I'm not sure why having a "Configuring an LTSP Server" would be a had topic 10:16 LaserJock s/had/bad/ 10:17 LaserJock ok, so I think the decision needs to be made there 10:17 willvdl it becomes an interesting topic to squeeze in since it depends on the specific network topology 10:17 LaserJock what do you want to present in the user's help system 10:17 LaserJock and what do you want to provide online 10:17 sbalneav It would be a big topic. Usually TBH is supposed to be "short snapper" type help, isn't it? Or am I smoking crack again? 10:17 LaserJock sbalneav: ideally yeah 10:18 LaserJock sbalneav: but we have the Server Guide in there 10:18 LaserJock which isn't all that non-tech 10:18 sbalneav I'm good either way. 10:18 willvdl LTSP would fit into the server guide logically right? 10:18 sbalneav Right. 10:18 LaserJock I think you guys should take a look at the feisty docs 10:19 LaserJock just to get a feel for what it's like 10:19 willvdl but, as I understand from ogra, installing it ontop of ubuntu versus out of edubuntu is slightly difference 10:19 LaserJock and see if you think it could fit in well there 10:19 willvdl *different 10:19 LaserJock willvdl: Ubuntu users wouldn't see it 10:20 willvdl LaserJock, the doc? or ltsp? 10:20 LaserJock ltsp stuff 10:20 willvdl but thry could if they chose 10:20 LaserJock that's what I'm saying, LTSP would be inserted into the help system on Edubuntu machines 10:21 LaserJock if they installed edubuntu-docs 10:21 willvdl cool. so we definitely need LTSP doc & LTCM (SCP) doc 10:22 LaserJock well, you don't have a ton of time for all this 10:22 willvdl plus install guide & customisation guide as a first priority? 10:23 LaserJock String Freeze is March 8th 10:23 willvdl I know 10:23 willvdl and I'm not around for much of Feb or March 10:23 LaserJock well, I still think you need to seperate out exactly what you want for shipped material vs. online material 10:24 willvdl trying to 10:24 willvdl personally I'd like as much as possible shipped. 10:25 willvdl sbalneav, you're putting your stuff in the handbook right? 10:26 pips1 sbalneav: regarding your 'short snapper' comment earlier... I just discovered the useful tips on writing help docs here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHelp/PageStructure 10:27 willvdl pips1, something else we should maybe look at... 10:28 willvdl some of our docs are in the drupal CMS. maybe start moving them to the svn? 10:29 willvdl I've also been reading your various planning pages for the web/wiki 10:30 pips1 did you make any sense from them? 10:31 willvdl yeah. alot had to do with setting up drupal site. looots of info 10:31 willvdl good stuff 10:31 willvdl I'd like to chat to you later or tomorrow about some content? 10:32 pips1 willvdl: I agree with LaserJock that there is a difference between shipped / "solid" documentation and online / flexible documentation... 10:32 willvdl yes. 10:32 willvdl just trying to decide what we should work on as priority for shipped docs 10:32 pips1 ok 10:33 pips1 and there needs to be a process for moving and refining online/in flux docs to shippable documentation 10:33 willvdl yip. what I was asking earlier 10:34 willvdl depends on the doc and author 10:34 willvdl Specifically the release-notes and About page can be handled like that 10:35 pips1 They way I see it, we will have community members' "input" in both drupal and the wiki... 10:35 willvdl well not the drupal... ? 10:35 pips1 drupal will have forums, and eventually community members will write stuff that is worthy and valid documentation... ? 10:36 willvdl but there is ubuntuforums.org? 10:37 willvdl anyway, I am following you 10:37 pips1 (drupal also has a nice "book" content type, for "sequential"/ordered content). 10:38 willvdl pips1, how do you envisage using something like that for community contribution? 10:38 willvdl sine it is not really a versioning tool... 10:38 pips1 willvdl: RichEd and me discussed the "filtering" process at UDS MV... we haven't quite gone into implementational details (with Drupal) yet. 10:39 willvdl ah, you mean the community education site? or www.edubuntu.org? 10:40 pips1 (willvdl: note I'm not sure if / I don't actually think we want to use the "drupal book" content type at all). I guess I shouldn't have mentioned it. 10:40 pips1 willvdl: I'm talking about the community site 10:40 willvdl no worries, it's the concept that's important 10:40 willvdl pips1 something else I'd like to push with doc team is the Quality Assurance spec 10:41 pips1 link ? 10:41 willvdl which has policies for Release sensitive help pages === willvdl looks 10:42 pips1 ohhh, that would be very interesting indeed 10:42 willvdl https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+spec/help-wiki-quality-assurance 10:42 willvdl so that we don't confuse edgy docs with dapper etc. 10:43 willvdl I think it's very easy to do. 10:43 pips1 willvdl: explain how... 10:43 willvdl edgy pages go in a edgy sub-page 10:43 willvdl or have an edgy name space for example 10:44 willvdl EdubuntuEdgyXXXXX 10:44 willvdl or EdubuntuXXXXX/Edgy/ 10:44 dsas Or says at the top of the page. "Applies to Edgy and Feisty" 10:45 willvdl dsas, yip. or even categories 10:45 dsas easier then for docs that apply to multiple releases to not have redundant copies. 10:45 willvdl but namesacing makes it easier for scripts and preserves namespace for future release docs 10:45 willvdl dsas, redirects === pips1 notes that the spec is for improving the functionality of moin moin wiki, but the spec is new, so it probably won't be implemented shortly (?) 10:46 willvdl anyway it's a topic for debate in the doc-team 10:46 willvdl not edubuntu 10:47 willvdl OK we need to wrap up. Let's flag the Online/Offline doc inclusion as an Unresolved Issue 10:47 pips1 I will just note that on the future edubuntu community space, we can simply use drupal's tagging feature 10:48 willvdl cool. tags will work too 10:49 willvdl pips1 are you around tomorrow morning? 10:49 pips1 hmm 10:49 willvdl or friday? 10:50 pips1 friday is better, I got a bunch of work I need to do tomorrow 10:50 pips1 let's set a time 10:50 willvdl cool. just want to confirm some stuff with you 10:50 willvdl let's set time after meeting 10:51 pips1 ok 10:51 willvdl Anyone want to bring anything else to the table? 10:51 willvdl Oh, cbx33 is going to write the Edubuntu chapter in the Ubuntu Book!!! 10:51 willvdl He wants a call for suggestions/ feedback etc. 10:51 pips1 heh 10:52 willvdl Let's give him some support on this, it's good for us Smile :) 10:52 willvdl Okie going once? 10:53 pips1 are you talking about the printed book, or wha? 10:53 willvdl yip 10:53 pips1 *what? 10:53 pips1 ah 10:53 willvdl official ubuntu book 10:53 willvdl going twice? 10:53 pips1 ah.. an updated version, I take it... what is the timeline for it? 10:54 willvdl no idea unfortunately 10:54 willvdl best ask cbx33 Smile :) 10:54 pips1 righty 10:55 willvdl Okie, six minutes short of two hours and we've covered some serious debate Smile :) 10:55 willvdl let's take the edubuntu doc discussion to the ML and to the ubuntu-doc team 10:56 pips1 Good to hear about all that documentation thoughts.. 10:56 willvdl pips1 it is a big and confusing monster 10:56 willvdl but fun 10:56 pips1 Smile :-) 10:57 willvdl OK, thrice. thanks folks. I'll have minutes up as soon as possible 10:57 pips1 Thanks 10:58 pips1 cu all! 10:59 willvdl ciao }}}