Aug05
<pak33m> START MEETING
<pak33m> can i get a show of hands?
<Catsceo> *claps*
<dantalizing> -
<bodycoach2> bodycoach2/Danny here
<mark007> Herro
<pak33m> ill give it just a min
<pak33m> for others
<Catsceo> I have something else to discuss later too
<pak33m> Cat: cool well open that up
* elcasey checks in
<pak33m> hey mark007 & elcasey
<pak33m> anybody else?
<bodycoach2> Pak33m/Jimmy? Did you go to Portland?
<pak33m> bodycoach2: yes, what a time! <elcasey> i need to sign back up for the mailing list and launchpad...are the links on the LoCo wiki page?
<Catsceo> yes
<elcasey> cool
<bodycoach2> Did you get to visit the Free Geek mothership?
<elcasey> newp
<pak33m> elcasey: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=387138
<elcasey> oh, nm
<pak33m> bodycoach2: yes i wanna discuss that here
<pak33m> ok, jst so everybody knows our hero bordy will be here later
<Catsceo> yes
<Catsceo>
<pak33m> everybody can follow along with our agenda here http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=387138 but feel free to add on to the conv when were done
<elcasey> there's an agenda there?
<pak33m> i would like to run through each of the topics one-by-one
<pak33m> ooops sorry i meant here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FloridaTeam/Meetings
<elcasey> thx
<elementc> sorry I was late. what did I miss?
<pak33m> first topic is Discuss the promotion of Ubuntu/Linux/F(L)OSS amongst specific small businesses
<Catsceo> nothing much yet
<pak33m> elementc: hiya
<elementc> thanks, Catseco. hi pakmaster
<pak33m> anybody wanna start with any ideas?
<Catsceo> yes
<bodycoach2> I've had some struggles with helping small business with Ubuntu
<elementc> My dad works at bob Steele Chevrolet. they're gonna fir their techs (porn on the servers or summat)
<elementc> I could get a job there and introduce it
<pak33m> bodycoach2: what struggles?
<bodycoach2> It's still interesting that techs wouldn't be smart enough to keep porn off work servers.
<Catsceo> When school starts around here I'm going to try to get in contact with the school board to see if I could get there old computers, put Ubuntu on them, and then give them to the needy
<ropetin> I put that on the agenda
<elementc> well, they were idiots. it was Wndows server 2000
<ropetin> I mean like to target a specific group (Real Estate Offices, Doctors, etc)
<bodycoach2> Catsceo.....that's what Free Geek's objective is
<Catsceo> ><
<ropetin> I have a school interested in me doing a LTSP project for them
<elementc> not doctors/dentists. htey have some specific windows-only databases
<pak33m> elemetc: you should get in there and take over!
<ropetin> Vetinary, I found a great Linux based package
<dantalizing> we had this discussion on gatorlug as well
<elementc> LTSP? maybe
<dantalizing> i moved one smal business to linux
<pak33m> i think the biggest ? is how to intro businesses to ubuntu, etc?
<dantalizing> they had some specialized windows software
<ropetin> Although it will be a charitable project on my part
<elementc> really? detils, please
<dantalizing> but i was able to run that on one of the local desktops
<elementc> mail em free cds
<bodycoach2> I've been working on getting some volunteer organizations to switch to Ubuntu
<dantalizing> and put linux on thier server
<dantalizing> so you can sometimes work aroudn the specialized apps
<bodycoach2> I think, if we can start at the volunteer org level, it will give businesses a model of operation to observe
<ropetin> Basically I think you have to offer someone a solution, rather than CDs or applications
<bodycoach2> Ropetin - exactly! They want assistance.
<pak33m> rop: yes im with you there but how would we do it...networking, schools?
<elementc> it's like chris dibona once said: You'll scare them off by pushing just one platform. push everything and things get interesting
<ropetin> Schools are good, although state ones are in MS pocket
<bodycoach2> Rop, Pak, there needs to be some sort of local support structure
<Catsceo> around here they all use Macs
<Catsceo> (Pasco)
<pak33m> bodycoach2: the volunteer level is a tremendous place to start considering the $ involved (or lack of it)
<elementc> ropetin: not really. SBBC has firfox/tunderbird on their ftp server, and about 25% are macs
<bodycoach2> Pak - exactly. Many simply don't have the funds to equipment, especially software prices
<elementc> most of the computrs in the school board building are RHEL 5
<pak33m> does anybody here do any technology consulting?
<bodycoach2> On Linuxtoday.com , there have been some good articles about Ubuntu/Linux in Law Offices
<dantalizing> pak i did in the past
<dantalizing> was looking to start up again
<elementc> pak3m: I maintain about 90 compters at a local elementary school
<ropetin> Law Offices are hard though, aren't they tied into Wordpoerfect?
<elementc> doesn't OO.o do word perfect?
<bodycoach2> OpenOffice will have to come up to Legal standards, before the local ones are accepting of Ubuntu as a solution
<ropetin> Well yes, but they use it for the interface apparently
<dantalizing> wordperfect used to be available on linux
<dantalizing> might be available somewhere
<bodycoach2> In Canada, many have already switched, but their stands are a bit different
<pak33m> dant: what would you say is the best approach to small businesses with ubuntu, open source, etc
<dantalizing> hit the servers first
<dantalizing> people love their desktops
<pak33m> elementc: perfect for introducing LTSP!
<dantalizing> its harder to get them to switch that
<dantalizing> servers get a foot in the door
<elementc> nah, It'd be a waste. they're all fairly powerful Pentium IVs.
<ropetin> Small places that don't use Active Directory?
<dantalizing> and make a desktop push easier later
<dantalizing> thats been my experience
<pak33m> rop: good point there
<bodycoach2> dant- I think another place is to look for new business, and work with them, instead of established businesses
<dantalizing> i havent seen small businesses using AD
<elementc> besides, they kinda have to use windows. some sorta educational program'
<bodycoach2> Business that have already set their operational standards are going to be VERY resistant to change
<elementc> unless a power failure brings the entire thing crashing around their pointy ears
<ropetin> I think a lot of places tht have had some kind of IT Consultant come in use AD, just because it was recommended
<bodycoach2> Self employeed, 1-5 person business, especially in the labor/house market are going to be more receptive to the costs savings with Ubuntu
<pak33m> bodycoach2: you mean networking (with ppl you know)
<dantalizing> and you can put a linux server into AD and allow single sign on...its a PITA, but it can be done
<ropetin> Email is a great place for Linux, because Exchange is sooo expensive
<bodycoach2> I'm mean- painters, plumbers, subcontractors, pool boy's, etc
<bodycoach2> lawn care
<pak33m> body: those are great ideas
<bodycoach2> 60% of businesses in USA are one person
<ropetin> dantalizing: Yeah, been there, done that, got the mental scars
<ropetin> But does a 3 man plumbing company need a
<ropetin> server?
<elementc> no, bt maybe a godd database server?
<bodycoach2> I'm not talking about a server.
<pak33m> rop: no, but they could save $ even with a pc with ubuntu
<bodycoach2> pak...exactly
<bodycoach2> established small businesses aren't too concerned with cutting costs with tech. ONE person business are greatly concerned with it
<ropetin> Good point
<bodycoach2> Instead of focusing on medium-small business and high tech, maybe we should focus on the sole- proprietor types
<dantalizing> well, from my experience, those are mostly using online tools already....hosting, email, etc....so no chance to sell them free for something they already get free
<bodycoach2> low-tech, so to speak
<dantalizing> "those" = small, 1 - 3 person businesses
<ropetin> 3-10?
<bodycoach2> You're right Dant....nevermind. Bad idea, I guess
<elementc> hi
<bodycoach2> What was I thinking?
<elementc> sorry.
<bodycoach2> Hey Elementc
<ropetin> I would love to get those 1 man companies away from having 'joeslawnservice6@yahoo.com' as their official email address. Maybe some kind of Linux based shared email hosting?
<elementc> bah. sis got my vnc password. ignore random stuff
<dantalizing> i vote we continue this discussion on the mailing list
<dantalizing> and move to the next item
<elementc> aye
<pak33m> i was considering setting up a projects page for everybody to contribute their experiences and work they have done with small busineses, etc. to keep track of what weve done for ppl
<dantalizing> good idea
<pak33m> ill work on it and we can fil it in as we like
<pak33m> ok, next topic
<dantalizing> ropetin: there are a lot of places they can use their own domain and use other hosting
<dantalizing> my wife and I use google, for instance
<elementc> me 2
<dantalizing> google hosted
<bodycoach2> danny@coachdanny.net goest to my yahoo account
<elementc> ElementC@elementCmedia.net goes to me.
<elementc> and sadfhasddfosdafi@elementcmedia.net goes to me, too.
<bodycoach2> I need to learn to speak mail server first...lol
<elementc> matter of fact, anything @ elementCmedia.net ends up in my inbox.
<pak33m> ...one more thing on the 1st topic: i posted some links in the agenda for canonical partners in case we run into somebody interested in getting the support and for a session i was at ubutntu live in about becoming a partner with canonical...in case youre interested
<elementc> wiat... get any swag?
<pak33m> ok, next topic...
<pak33m> Discuss getting involved in events for the Ubuntu Florida team (these events may help get us approved as an official team)
<elementc> what kinda events
<pak33m> elementc: not much pens, pamphlets,
<pak33m> Free Geek Central Florida project - What could we contribute? The Free Geek presentation at the Ubuntu Live conference.
<pak33m> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=387124
<pak33m> Software Freedom Day - At GatorLUG or anywhere else and how to get involved?
<pak33m> http://softwarefreedomday.org/
<pak33m> Barcamp Orlando - What will we contribute and who will be attending form the Ubuntu Florida team?
<pak33m> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=515771
<pak33m> http://barcamporlando.org/
<pak33m> just a few but we can open it up to others
<dantalizing> FreeGeek first?
<Catsceo> I could bundle CDs with bikes that are givin away at my godfathers meets
<pak33m> also, the more events that we attend and contribute to the easier it will to get our team approved (which is one of our goals)
<pak33m> dant: sure Free Geek 1st
<Catsceo> and teh room goes silent
<dantalizing> bodycoach:?
<bodycoach2> I'm here...looking at the barcamp page
<bodycoach2> I think I can make that
<dantalizing> what are we gonna do about freegeek?
<elementc> I'm out of this part. no participation until after schools
<bodycoach2> This next semester, the Capstone class at Valencia Community College is going to make it an official Free Geek
<pak33m> bodycoach2: you wanna intro free geek?
<bodycoach2> Okay.
<bodycoach2> Easiest thing: check out http://freegeek.org
<bodycoach2> and http://wiki.freegeek.org
<bodycoach2> We take in older and/or broken hardware, rebuild and refurbish it, then give it out to people who need a computer, but can't afford one
<bodycoach2> FreeGeekCentralFlorida.org will work a bit like the Chicago chapter, at first
* Catsceo will help
<bodycoach2> Till we get a centralized storage location, what I'd like to do it have a "Free Geek Field Agent"
program
<bodycoach2> On online database of parts that we can help out each other with, if necessary
<pak33m> body: what does free geek install as an os
<bodycoach2> The FGCF website should be up by September 10th, as it will be done by the capstone class
<bodycoach2> Xubuntu on most machines, since the ones we get are usually 500 MHz - 900MHz, and Ubuntu on anything better
<bodycoach2> http://freegeekchicago.org uses Xubuntu exclusively, just to keep it consistent
<bodycoach2> We try to make sure machines go out with at least 256 mg, and at least a 10 gig hard drive
<pak33m> body: does freegeek provide any support for the hw it donates?
<pak33m> and sw?
<elementc> I'll brb. gotta burn me a CD of the x86 ubuntu
<bodycoach2> Yes....one year support. And, if they can't fix hardware within 15 minutes, they just trade it out for another machine --- For FREE. Beat that Geek Squat!
<pak33m> body: how does our team get involved?
<bodycoach2> The Portland Oregon Free Geek original site has an incredible system
<Catsceo> I would like to help get a subtem of FGCF started here in Tampa
<Catsceo> subteam*
<bodycoach2> I'd like to have a tread on the forum for people to volunteer; hardware work, support work, etc
<bodycoach2> I'd like to try to set up an online support team
<bodycoach2> The best part of this project: You get to keep the best of the equipment!
<pak33m> body: maybe we could add our involement with free geek to the propsed project page? what do you think?
<Catsceo> yo qrprat11
<bodycoach2> Yes...please
<bodycoach2> It's extremely easy to start this on a personal level, folks
<bodycoach2> 1. Tell everyone what you're doing, and what Free Geek is about
<bodycoach2> 2. Be ready for the onslaught of hardware you'll get
<bodycoach2> 3. Find people who need equipment
<pak33m> in case anybody is interested there was a presentation of free geek and bworks at ubuntu live that was very inspiring http://www.ubuntulive.com/cs/ubuntu/view/e_sess/14612
<dantalizing> sweet
<Catsceo> body: when school starts around here I'll get in contact with the school board to get there old PCs and Macs
<Catsceo> their*
<bodycoach2> Also, check out the ACCRC, the original organization: http://www.accrc.org/
<bodycoach2> They did a pretty sweet cluster computer, made out completely of donated parts
<dantalizing> if we start out as individuals, do we need to file for non-profit status? or do we fall under an umbrella organization?
<bodycoach2> A "Free" 27 GHz supercomputer, so to speak
<pak33m> cool weve got some projects to all et involed with
<bodycoach2> Umbrella
<bodycoach2> FGCF (freegeekcentralflorida) will have to start off that way <pak33m> lets all agree to add your em all to the projects page
<Catsceo> agreed
<bodycoach2> We'll probably maintain a team of "Field Agents"
<Catsceo> link?
<bodycoach2> What's an "em"?
<pak33m> well, the project page is just proposed but i can have it on our wiki soon
<pak33m> em or them
<Catsceo> hmm, k
<pak33m> sorry im form sanford thats how we say it
<bodycoach2> oh....add 'em all.....
<dantalizing> regarding SFD, gatorlug is doing a SFD here in gainesville
<pak33m> body: thats it
<dantalizing> we're gonna help them out
<dantalizing> poningru has basically said they need all the help they can get
<bodycoach2> W're moving on to Software Freedom Day now? <pak33m> lets get on to talking about Software Freedom Day http://softwarefreedomday.org/ and how we can get
involed http://softwarefreedomday.org/helping
<elementc> I hope so. this is getting less fun
<dantalizing> i thought the "<pak33m> lets all agree to add your em all to the projects page" was a segue
<bodycoach2> I hearby give an Aussi thanks to Pia Waugh!
<pak33m> dant: yeah somethin like that
<dantalizing> anyway...i suggest y'all look for a SFD in your area
<dantalizing> and see if you can volunteer....as a representative of ubuntu-florida
<pak33m> can anybody into SFD and intro ideas for it
<dantalizing> http://softwarefreedomday.org/
<bodycoach2> http://softwarefreedomday.org/about
<poningru> sorry
<dantalizing> last year gatorlug handed out Linux in front of BooksAMillion
<pak33m> dant: whats going on with gatorllug and SFD
<poningru> here
<poningru> taking a nap
<poningru> err took a nap
<dantalizing> this year, poningru says we're doing an installfest
<pak33m> poningru: hey
<poningru> yeah last year it was basically the same
<poningru> I would like to encourage you guys to do the same though
<poningru> do something... anything
<bodycoach2> I talk up SFD mostly be emphasizing the idea of support Free Speech with it
<bodycoach2> And how Software Freedom and Free Speech go together
<Catsceo> I'll put up banners/fliers around my 'hood
<pak33m> would sfd be a place(s) for a meet up?
<poningru> pak33m: well it would be more a place to showcase free software
<pak33m> should we setup an ubuntu florida tent!
<pak33m> pon: well, at least we'd meet up by being there together
<dantalizing> http://softwarefreedomday.org/teams/northamerica/FL
<dantalizing> nobody listed in florida
<pak33m> should we add SFD to our proposed project page?
<dantalizing> yes
<bodycoach2> Aye
<pak33m> dant:we should add us to that page
<dantalizing> i'm editing now
<pak33m> dant: awesome!!
<poningru> dantalizing: no dude it goes USA
<poningru> then FL
<pak33m> ok, unless anybody has anymore about SFD lets move on to talk about barcamp
<dantalizing> this doesnt exist either:
<dantalizing> http://softwarefreedomday.org/teams/america/USA/FL/Gainesville
<bodycoach2> Maybe, one of us can try to contact Pia about what we can do
<dantalizing> where it was last year
<dantalizing> poningru: i'll leave it to you or jli to update
<bodycoach2> Ah! We could set up something at local community colleges?
<bodycoach2> Barcamp it is
<poningru> http://softwarefreedomday.org/teams/northamerica/FL/Gainesville
<poningru> wtf
<poningru> soo weird
<pak33m> can we get a show of hands for people that plan on attending barcamp and what your plans are there?
* Catsceo shows half a hand
* dantalizing will talk about openmoko
<Catsceo> depending on my grades and how may absences I've had at school, I may go
<bodycoach2> I've decided I'll try to go, and discuss Free Geek
<pak33m> i'll be there but acting as the room wallflower
<Catsceo> ha
<poningru> unfortunately I cannot come to orlando
<poningru> too far away
<bodycoach2> I live about 12 minutes away
<pak33m> i work about 1 mile from the place
<dantalizing> gotta run yall
*** dantalizing is now known as dantalizing_afk
<bodycoach2> I don't work right now (bowing head in disgrace)...looking for a part-time job
<bodycoach2> A+ Certi...2006 Objectives!
<Catsceo> are you guys SURE that a minor (me) will be able to attend? I watched the videos of past barcamps and it looked like scantily clad women, beer, and geeks partying
<pak33m> so, its from 1 pm - 10 pm? whos gonna go when?
<pak33m> Catsceo: not sure but we can find out
<bodycoach2> Did this place used to be "Chapters" used bookstore in College Park??
<Catsceo> I don't want to drag my mom to Orlando just to be thrown out because I wasn't drinking age
<pak33m> Catsceo: i think it would be all ages
<pak33m> Catsceo: at least Mom could have adrink
<Catsceo> eek!
<pak33m> anybody else presenting there, etc? <bodycoach2> I'm going to register to present
<pak33m> would we all agree to add barcamp to the proposed project page?
<Catsceo> YES
<pak33m> ok, lets move on to the next topic
<bodycoach2> aye
<pak33m> Translate the message provided by the Ubuntu Live conference and discuss how it can help the Ubuntu Florida team in achieving the goals it has set forth <Catsceo> "Translate"?
<elementc> sorry, wifi died.
<elementc> I'm outa here. post the minutes when done.
<elementc> (please)
<bodycoach2> What's the message, and what language was it originally in?
<bodycoach2> Ya Gavaroo Pa-ruski
<Catsceo> Czech maybe?
<Catsceo> :P
<pak33m> the message was how how to get teams together
<Catsceo> oooh
<pak33m> sorry im fading (long day at the beach)
<bodycoach2> Teams across USA?
<pak33m> yes
<bodycoach2> How does the European teams work?
<pak33m> the message was also about how to advocate the use of ubuntu
<bodycoach2> T-Shirts!
<pak33m> in business, technical, etc.
<bodycoach2> Sticker for cars...like the Apple logo sticker
<pak33m> no t-shirts - i wish
<pak33m> got lots of stickers
* Catsceo ants a sticker :<
<pak33m> leads into the next topic
<Catsceo> wants*....
<pak33m> Discuss the summary of the Ubuntu US Teams meeting on July 28 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/USTeams/Minutes/ July28Formal, how to apply the ideas dicsussed into the Ubuntu Florida team and the recent US Teams activity to get needed state LoCo teams started
<bodycoach2> My girlfriend wears an Ubuntu thong: http://www.cafepress.com/ubuntushop.14580695
<pak33m> f you go to that link there were topics discussed that we can use for our team
<pak33m> body: nice!
<Catsceo> body: oh my
<pak33m> i gotta get the baby bib
<pak33m> for the baby that is
<Catsceo> body: pix plz (j/k :P )
<pak33m> we discussed recruitment at LUGs, schools, etc
<bodycoach2> I'm going to get an Ubuntu Golf Shirt, as soon as I get a job, that is (HINT, HINT)
<Catsceo>
<pak33m> hey bordy
<bordy> heyo.
<Catsceo> yoyoyo bordy
<bordy> wow, 20 nicks
<bodycoach2> Man...that Bordy guy is such a putz///// OH! Hey bordy
<bordy> heyo danny :-P
<pak33m> bordy: you showed jst when things were fading
<bodycoach2> We're on the topic of Ubuntu thongs
<pak33m> at least i am
<bordy> Sorry I missed it all, got stupid company open
<bordy> over
<bordy> not open
<bordy> so many non-floridians in here throwin off our numbers!
<pak33m> so, i think that we should move to the last topic which is to here it for new members - we have a few
<bodycoach2> We could give out condoms with Ubuntu disks, like Free Geek Vancouver does: http:// freegeekvancouver.org/en/v/sfu/
<pak33m> and theyre not no the non-floridians
<Catsceo> me me me me!!!
<pak33m> Catsceo: go
<bordy> hey bodycoach2 I may need your help soon
<bodycoach2> To quote John Kerry, "Help is on the way."
<Catsceo> I'm going to get incontact with the school board around here to get there old computers (I already said this, I know)
<bodycoach2> "Bonesmen are behind you!"
<Catsceo> and redistribute in the poor areas
<bodycoach2> Cat....let me know if you do
<bordy> catsceo: think they'll give em up? If they do, that bodes well for the rest of the states school boards
<bodycoach2> they will want data destruction assurance: http://freegeekvancouver.org/en/data_destruction
<poningru> Catsceo: there is dignity project here in g'ville that does something similar
<Catsceo> body: I will, I was hoping to do it with FGCF
<Catsceo> bordy: I hope so
<bodycoach2> Most schools put there stuff on http://publicsurplus.com
<bordy> hey catsceo just realized you arent picked up by any sub teams yet
* bordy cackles
<pak33m> Catsceo: yr choice
<pak33m> Marketing
<pak33m> Wiki Maintenance
<pak33m> Education and New User Support
<pak33m> Meeting Team
<Catsceo> hmm
<bordy> coughmeetingteamcough
<bodycoach2> bordy, my irc nick needs to change
<pak33m> or new team?
<bodycoach2> in the roster wiki
<Catsceo> would a new team be in order tho?
<bordy> bodycoach2: go ahead and change it :-P <pak33m> Catsceo: its open
<bodycoach2> Opps....I think I deleted it
<bodycoach2> all of it
<Catsceo> body: what team are you on?
<bordy> pretty much all of them
<bordy> I was doing it all myself til we added some teams
<Catsceo> body, not bordy :P
<bordy> but pak33m took over a lot of the burden for me
<pak33m> bordy: ah thanks
<bordy> I heart me some pak33m
<bodycoach2> Not sure. I was on the University of GA's mens gymnastics team in the 80's
<bodycoach2> Looks like I'm going to have to learn how to edit a wiki
<Catsceo> would a team thats goal was to basically JSUT work with FGCF and Ubuntu-florida be a good idea?
<Catsceo> just*
<pak33m> bordy: btw i proposed creating a project page for all of our projects like our events page but a place to add individual projects with the team goals in mind
* Catsceo can't spell for SH!T today
<bordy> pak33m: sweet, anybody besides me on the wiki team?
<bordy> or should I create that page later tonight? lol
<bodycoach2> I have to go everyone. Thanks for the meeting and cooperating with FGCF!
<bordy> adios Danny
<bodycoach2> (Girlfriend taking Ubuntu thong off now)
<pak33m> the project page was inspired by this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PNWTeam/projects/
<bodycoach2> later
<pak33m> i meet up with dan at the ubuntu live conf who created that page
<bordy> dshufelt?
<pak33m> yep
<bordy> sweet.
* Catsceo wonders if anybody HEARD him.......
<pak33m> bordy: that guy is busy!
<bordy> Catsceo its not a bad idea
<Catsceo> very well, lets roll with it
<bordy> is there already an established freegeek in florida?
* bordy thinks we need a scribe, cause he doesnt wanna transcribe any more minutes
<bordy> lol
<pak33m> what?
<bordy> hey i gotta finish cooking, but I will bbiab... pak33m will you be around?
<pak33m> im gonna get some sleep long day at the beach...ok, maybe i ll be around
<Catsceo> danny said that he was a member of FGCF
<bordy> catsceo: he is prety much starting it
<bordy> bbiab
<Catsceo> ah
<pak33m> yeah there is a local free geek
*** bordy is now known as bordy_away
<Catsceo> ok, NEW TEAM then
<pak33m> hey everybody
<pak33m> END MEETING
FloridaTeam/Minustes/Aug05 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:34:43 by localhost)