Team Page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu
Meeting Log(s): none available ATM
Meeting Chair: Jonathan Riddell (Riddell)
Meeting Minutes by: Martin Böhm (mhb)
The following were present during this meeting:
Kubuntu Council Members Present
Harald Sitter (apachelogger) -- approved at this meeting
The following people have requested and interview for membership:
Harald has done many Universe packages, and is also an active Amarok promoter. Congratulations to him for achieving the membership status.
The following agendas were proposed for this meeting:
- Klamav - should it be allowed to update itself or clamav?
- Where should we put our packages into bzr, and what are the best (and easiest) tools to use with bzr?
With Feature Freeze coming soon, how are the Kubuntu Desktop Effects (described in KubuntuGutsyPlan) doing?
- The new kdebluetooth is about to be released. Packages are ready, but require a MIR to go in main. SHould we do it ?
- Is dolphin ready to be used by default ?
Meeting called to order at 21:00, by Meeting Chair, Jonathan Riddell
The following is a break down of the entire meeting by agenda items.
Presented by: Scott Kitterman Full agenda item: Klamav - should it be allowed to update itself or clamav? Tonio recently patched it out and has good policy reasons for having done so. I think clamav is kind of a special case and perhaps we ought to allow it. I've tested the functionality and it appears to be mostly harmless. There's a new upstream release and I'd like consensus on this functionality before I package it.
Klamav (the Clam antivirus frontend) is able to both update virus definitions and engine updates. However, the engine update needs a working development environment, which is not present in the default Kubuntu install. The discussion revolved around enablind/disabling the updates, and/or putting the engine updates in a Debian repository.
23:19 < ScottK> The Klamav has a function to allow itself and clamav to be updated from upstream. 23:20 < ScottK> This installs in the home directory of the user doing the upgrade and does not interfere with the packaged version. 23:20 < Riddell> kalmav is an anti virus scanner for kmail? 23:20 < ScottK> No. 23:20 < ScottK> It's the KDE GUI for Klamav 23:20 < manchicken> I think it's just a general anti-virus manager. 23:20 < Tonio_> Riddell: can do but that's more than this 23:20 < fdoving> Riddell: for kde in general, interface to clamav. 23:21 < Tonio_> to make it simple, ScottK and I discussed this a lot and we have different opinion on that point 23:21 < nixternal> my only question about klamav autoupdating itself is this...what if they do something that breaks it on our end? 23:21 < ScottK> Right. 23:21 < Riddell> update in what way? 23:21 < Riddell> presumably not the binary? 23:21 < mhb> is it just the virus definitions? 23:21 < Tonio_> klamav as a function to allow auto-updates, but not only the virus database, it can also update clamav engine and itself 23:21 < fdoving> Riddell: download source and compile to .klamav/ something. 23:21 < Tonio_> Riddell: yes, the binary too :) 23:21 < nixternal> ya, what Tonio_ said 23:22 < ScottK> So for Klamav, I agree this should be patched out. 23:22 < nixternal> just like every other anti-virus software that is out there 23:22 < Riddell> crivvens 23:22 < Tonio_> I patched to remove those functionnalities, as I consider this as to be done via packages for several reasons 23:22 < ScottK> But I think clamav ought to be allowed. 23:22 < manchicken> If we do that though, then folks are going to want us to stay pretty up to date on klamav... 23:22 < Tonio_> a simple reason is to control the binary (that we patch) 23:22 < nixternal> I have to admit though..I have been using it on-and-off for a little over a year now on both Linux and Windows, and never once did it break 23:22 < mhb> hmm, is it possible to update just the virus definitions, not the binaries? 23:22 < ScottK> mhb: Yes 23:22 < fdoving> ScottK: does suse allow this? 23:22 < ScottK> That's how it is now. 23:23 < Tonio_> another opinion is that an antivirus update might require both engine and database update 23:23 < Riddell> that seems sensible 23:23 < ScottK> fdoving: Dunno about SUSE. 23:23 < nixternal> ScottK: do you know how often they do engine updates? I don't think I have seen one in the past month honestly..but I would have to boot up my other machine to check 23:23 < Tonio_> which makes sense if a new kind of protovirus comes arround or so 23:23 < Riddell> what sort of new functionalities come from the new binaries and not the definitions? 23:23 < kwwii> if other distros are doing this without getting shit for it, we could do it too 23:23 < Tonio_> Riddell: imlproved heuristic engine for example 23:23 < ScottK> Yes, in fact if clamav 0.90.2 had released one week later, we'd have no virus definition support in Feisty at all. 23:24 < DaSkreech> What's the Ubuntu position on clamav? 23:24 < Tonio_> so both ScottK and I consider improtant to update clamav regularly, it cannot be frozen the way other stable apps are 23:24 < ScottK> It's in Universe and unsupported. 23:24 < nixternal> what kind of binary patches are we doing with it right now that may cause conflict with any updates? 23:24 < Tonio_> we just disagree on rationale 23:24 < Tonio_> I consider that should be done via -updates or -backports 23:24 < kwwii> ScottK: do you know the reasoning for that in ubuntu? 23:24 < Riddell> what if you don't have the build dependencies installed? 23:24 < Tonio_> ScottK considers it reasonable to let the binary autoupdate 23:24 < Tonio_> Riddell: it doesn't build afaik 23:25 < ScottK> apt-get build-dep clamav 23:25 < ScottK> I've tested that. 23:25 < nixternal> Riddell: if you don't have the deps it doesn't build..that I do know, but iirc it does warn you with a failure message 23:25 < Tonio_> ScottK: does it recompile the sources ? 23:25 < ScottK> Yes. 23:25 < Riddell> so for most users it won't update anyway, only developers 23:25 < Tonio_> hum oki 23:25 < Tonio_> I consider that quite dangerous 23:25 < Riddell> and developers should be clever enough to enable backports 23:25 < ScottK> Well I intended to update the Kubuntu provided docs to tell people to do that. 23:25 < Tonio_> ScottK: what if the build fails or if there is a bug in it ? 23:25 < mhb> I guess having updated packages in backports (if necessary) is not a bad solution 23:25 < toma> cant we work together with http://www.debian.org/volatile/ 23:26 < nixternal> would it be possible to get some clarification from the klamav devs on some of this? 23:26 < ScottK> Worst case is it only affect that user. 23:26 < DaSkreech> Riddell: I don't think that it's developers who would be interesested in update 23:26 < DaSkreech> it would be businesses 23:26 < toma> yes, and automatically updating engines is a must 23:27 < Tonio_> ScottK: yes but for example if we have patches to fix some bugs or improve kubuntu integration, we'll miss them on update 23:27 < Riddell> having an ubuntu volatile does seem like a more sensible solution 23:27 < ScottK> Additionally, it's been this way for some time without trouble. 23:27 < toma> can't you build in an approval for the enigines with a md5 sum ? 23:27 < ScottK> The patches are my biggest concern. 23:27 < DaSkreech> and they would want to have assurance that having installed a Virus software for a supported OS that they would haev reasonable expectations that the AV would work 23:27 < Tonio_> oki so to make it clear, I think we need to negociate something : 23:27 < Tonio_> make it easier to perform clamav update on stable release, as the current process is a nightmare.... 23:28 < Tonio_> and provide backports so that we keep control of updates when required 23:28 < Tonio_> but that's my personnal opinion only 23:28 < allee> afair there's a wiki page about 'updating clamav' as pkg ... 23:28 < Tonio_> DaSkreech: no one would allow auto updates in companies..... 23:29 < DaSkreech> For a virus scanner? 23:29 < Tonio_> DaSkreech: a company wouldn't even atoupdate the database, but will build its own one using clamav-getfiles 23:29 < kwwii> Tonio_: good point 23:29 < ScottK> From my perspective, we need to do backports (and I've been doing it), but allowing Klamav to update Clamav is low risk. 23:29 < Tonio_> DaSkreech: of course...., that's the way we do for all our clients, including the french parliament 23:29 < toma> Tonio_: i dont agree, i know a dozen+ companies who do 23:29 < manchicken> I don't know. The last windows-heavy company I worked for told us that it was our responsibility to ensure that updates were installed. 23:29 < Tonio_> toma: bad admins exist :) 23:30 < kwwii> I think we should talk to a head clamav dev to help clear this up 23:30 < toma> Tonio_: that would be me ;-) 23:30 < Tonio_> toma: sorry :) 23:30 < nixternal> lol 23:30 < ScottK> So this is why Tonio_ and I thought we should bring it here. 23:30 < kwwii> erm, klamav, whatever 23:30 < allee> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/MOTU/Clamav 23:30 < ScottK> That's mostly about my attempt to get us to where we can backport clamav to Dapper. 23:31 < Riddell> I don't really know how to resolve the issue, we know the problems, it scares the heck out of me, but I guess its really useful for a number of people 23:31 < ScottK> Edgy to Feisty the clamav API changed and so backporting is a real problem. 23:31 < manchicken> I think that as long as we keep on top of klamav updates and keep them in backports we should be fine. 23:31 < toma> my vote is for a ubuntu volatile repository 23:31 < manchicken> Security software is just that important. 23:31 < ScottK> toma: Where do we find that. 23:31 < nixternal> I am with toma on this one 23:31 < toma> ScottK: find? create! 23:31 < Riddell> toma: yes, although it would take a commitment from someone to do it 23:31 < manchicken> And while viruses don't seem to be common, if someone really wants the protection offered by klamav then I think we should accommodate. 23:31 < kwwii> perhaps there is some goodReason(tm) to allow autoupdates without worry 23:32 < fdoving> i say keep the features, we can't remove features in software just because it can break something if the user decides to do stupid things. 23:32 < nixternal> actually...doesn't spamassassin allow you to autoupdate? or is that just for definitions only? 23:32 < ScottK> nixternal: Just for rules. 23:32 < nixternal> ok 23:32 < ScottK> But I've been backporting that one too. 23:32 < Riddell> fdoving: it's not the users we're worried about 23:32 < toma> Riddell: yes. true. that's why i suggested to work with debian on it, but thats just me 23:32 < fdoving> Riddell: it's all in $HOME anyway. 23:32 < Tonio_> nixternal: yep jsut for rules 23:32 < Tonio_> autoupdates for rules is sane 23:33 < ScottK> Proposal .... 23:33 < toma> Tonio_: now you got me confused ;-) 23:33 < Tonio_> another thing is that nobody would even figure out that he has to install builddeps 23:33 < nixternal> yes it is. I wonder if there is a notification service with klamav that could notify us of engine changes so we can update quickly and push 23:33 < Tonio_> but an active backport/update would fit everyone 23:33 < Tonio_> that's my second point 23:34 < Tonio_> toma: hehe :) 23:34 < ScottK> We change the patch to allow clamav, but not klamav and make sure the auto updates defaults to off and the the docs cover risks and installing the build-deps so the user is informed and has to take affirmative action. 23:34 < Tonio_> nixternal: concerning the notification, I think so, but we need to be sure 23:34 < nixternal> I am checking out the klamav wiki now 23:34 < ScottK> For notifications on clamav updates, I'm subscribed to the announce list. 23:35 < Riddell> ScottK: ah, so the patch removes the whole possibility of the user turning on engine auto-updates? 23:35 < Tonio_> Riddell: yep that's what I patched 23:35 < ScottK> It does now. 23:35 < toma> thats bad 23:35 < fdoving> atleast make it config-key-configuratble. 23:35 < Tonio_> toma: that was my choice :) 23:35 < ScottK> I'd like to change it to default off, but allow it to be started. 23:36 < toma> +1 23:36 < DaSkreech> +1 23:36 < Riddell> I agree with ScottK's proposal, but I'd also be tempted to have rule auto-updates by default 23:36 < Riddell> having said that it's not a kubuntu specific issue really, motu council and tech board would have the final say 23:36 < ScottK> The virus definitions should and do auto update by default, it's just the engine that doesnt. 23:37 * ryanakca votes for having rule auto-updates on by default, but disable engine updates. 23:37 < Riddell> that seems to be the general consensus 23:37 < ScottK> Riddell: ? The patch is for Klamav, so isn't it a Kubuntu decision? 23:37 < Riddell> ScottK: this is klamav feature only? 23:37 < Tonio_> Riddell: yep that concerns the all ubuntu, would be interesting to get the TB opinion 23:37 < fdoving> can that be done in kubuntu-default-settings? 23:38 < Tonio_> Riddell: it is clamav only yes 23:38 < Riddell> fdoving: I'd just do it as a patch to the code 23:38 < ScottK> Right. The issue is what Klamav can do to clamav. 23:38 < manchicken> My only concern with that is that we get rules that require engine updates, and cause instability. 23:38 < toma> ryanakca: disable engine updates permanently, or just default off, user can enable? 23:38 < manchicken> Other than that, I'll be quiet. 23:39 < fdoving> Riddell: i'd like to be able to update my engines as the software allows, without rebuilding my own package. 23:39 < ryanakca> toma: umm. Hmm. Not permanently, default off, but when the user turns it on, have a warning saying it /might/ cause breakage, but it's unlikely, and have them aknowledge the risk 23:39 < toma> ryanakca: yes +1 23:39 < Tonio_> fdoving: well in my opinion, there should be packages update on the stable release 23:39 < fdoving> ryanakca: exactly. that sould be a default-config thing, doable from k-d-s, shouldn't it? 23:39 < Tonio_> fdoving: for the same reason there is firefox updates for example 23:39 < DaSkreech> manchicken: not sure but I think that engine updates bump versions so the rules wouldn't apply 23:40 < ryanakca> That way, if it breaks, it's not really our fault, we warned them, kind of like the restricted multimedia stuff. Umm. I dunno about the dialog part in k-d-s. 23:40 < fdoving> Tonio_: we both know that is slow if it ever happens. 23:40 < Tonio_> fdoving: not that sure imho 23:41 < Riddell> we need to move on 23:41 < Riddell> consensus seems to be off by default but keep the option for the user 23:41 * ryanakca nods 23:41 < Tonio_> ryanakca: on the other hand, you can't say "you want a safe antivirus, that's your problem, not our fault" that's unfair 23:41 < DaSkreech> with some verbage as to possible consequences 23:41 < Riddell> consesus except for Tonio_ anyway :) 23:42 < ScottK> I'm sitting on pakcaging an upstream update, so I'd just like to move forward with a reasonable consensus.... 23:42 < Riddell> and volunteers for a volatile repository welcome 23:42 < Tonio_> Riddell: yep, but I'll respect the consensus, except I don't understand how can we say to the user "be safe is your responsability" :) 23:42 < Tonio_> that's insane to me 23:42 < ryanakca> ScottK: I'd go for it, but what do I know :) 23:42 < Tonio_> well let's move on 23:43 < Riddell> Tonio_: it's off by default, the issues should be well documented, that seems fair on the user 23:43 < Tonio_> Riddell: yes but off be default means nobody will take care of backports 23:43 < toma> Tonio_: calculate a md5 sum of the download and compare it to something you publish on some safe kubuntu webpage 23:43 < Tonio_> deleting the update mechanism obliges us to be respondive on updates :) 23:43 < ScottK> Tonio_: I'll continue to take care of backports. 23:43 < Tonio_> ScottK: I'd like to help you on that point 23:43 < ScottK> Great. 23:43 < Tonio_> ScottK: but that's another story 23:44 < Riddell> groovy
Outcome: "Keep the updating option disabled by default, but allow the user to enable it if he wants to. A volatile repository for the .deb packages with updates is possible, but it would need volunteers to make happen."
Bzr and Source Package Management
Presented by: Nobody
This point was not discussed due to the key person (Hobbsee) absent.
Kubuntu Gutsy Desktop Effects
Presented by: MartinBöhm
In the KubuntuGutsyPlan specification, it was decided that a similar tool to GNOME's desktop-effects would be present in Kubuntu to allow easy Compiz installation. Also the Kcontrol module should have been made available. The discussion revolved around how much is left to do before FeatureFreeze.
23:57 < mhb> With Feature Freeze coming soon, how are the Kubuntu Desktop Effects (described in KubuntuGutsyPlan) doing? 23:57 < mhb> that's my question to the people at the uds who did that 23:57 < nixternal> Beryl/Compiz should smoothly integrate with Kubuntu for those who wish to use it. 23:58 < Riddell> but all the funtionality seems to be there 23:58 < nixternal> under Third Party Compositing Support 23:58 < Riddell> except the kcontrol panel I think has gone missing in the merge 23:58 < nixternal> I wouldn't say it smoothly integrates 23:58 < mhb> and there has never been an easy way in Kubuntu to set it up 23:58 < ryanakca> What about the kwin compositing? 23:58 < nixternal> ryanakca: have you tried it for KDE 3? 23:58 < ryanakca> yeah 23:59 < nixternal> not the greatest, and now Compiz/Beryl has given a new vision for compositing 23:59 < kwwii> let's put our private parts away for this and realize the facts 23:59 < ryanakca> It ran pretty smoothly, except for a couple X crashes, but I blame it on a crappy video card 23:59 < nixternal> I have to do way to much work in order to get Compiz to work on any one of my machines, so I am not a fan of it 23:59 < fdoving> i use compiz from 'deb http://download.tuxfamily.org/3v1deb feisty eyecandy', runs smoothly for me on two machines, but it didn't work that well for toma. 00:00 < toma> nope 00:00 < Riddell> so it's not going to be the default in gutsy :) 00:00 < Riddell> but it could do with someone who it works for making the kde bits work easily 00:00 < nixternal> it doesn't work well with Intel cards, way to much work for ATI cards, and you better have an up to date Nvidia card for it 00:00 < kwwii> we will get big-time minus points for not including composting in Gutsy 00:01 < nixternal> kwwii: we can offer it of course 00:01 < mhb> yes, and I thought some of the folks who made the spec could become active and implement it 00:01 < ryanakca> Hmm. is the kwin compositing better than nothing? Pretty easy to set up, just check a box... *forgets where* 00:01 < fdoving> nixternal: works nicely on my intel 945, and my old nvidia 7100something. :) 00:01 < kwwii> compiz works great with intel cards and lots of others 00:01 < nixternal> kwwii: and I have seen more complaints from people who have installed it and had it enabled by default 00:01 < Riddell> mhb: it was imbrandon who said he might work on it, but I don't think he has 00:01 < nixternal> fdoving: doesn't work with my GF 4 MX 00:01 < kwwii> we just need a black list for known unsupported cards 00:02 * ryanakca nods 00:02 < nixternal> kwwii: anything >= Nvidia 6xxx series I would say 00:02 < nixternal> ATI support is horrible 00:02 < nixternal> although that isn't Compiz/Beryl's fault 00:02 < Riddell> kwwii: we have that, it's in the compiz startup script 00:02 < nixternal> actually, none of it is really their fault 00:02 < mhb> is there somebody who actually knows how to set up compiz fusion with aquamarine and Kcontrol settings? 00:03 < nixternal> mhb: I have it running in XGL 00:03 < Riddell> mhb: yes, just install the compiz-kde package and fusion plugins 00:03 < Riddell> but as I say I think it misses the kcontrol module 00:03 < nixternal> it does miss it 00:03 < Riddell> so that should be fixed 00:03 < kwwii> Riddell: then we are good to go, as soon as we have a control panel for it 00:03 < ryanakca> Alt-F3 -> Configure Window Behavior -> Transluecency for the kwin compositing. 00:03 < Riddell> then it needs a button added to say "turn on compiz" 00:04 < nixternal> and I hate having Adept Notifier floating in the top left hand corner 00:04 < manchicken> It'll be nice once I get a machine that I can play with all of this on. 00:04 < Riddell> and maybe a .desktop file for adept-installer for it's easy to install 00:04 < kwwii> right, it should be as simple as possible for people like my wife 00:04 < mhb> Riddell: I could hack a simple python tool for that during the weekend 00:04 < Tonio_> nixternal: and konversation autoconnect window staying there forever...... 00:04 < nixternal> ahh yes that to 00:04 < nixternal> I thought that was something else...guess it wasn't 00:04 < Riddell> mhb: for letting users turn on compiz? 00:04 < Tonio_> and kicker going insane while switching back to kwin :) 00:04 < mhb> Riddell: yep 00:04 < Riddell> mhb: sounds great 00:04 < nixternal> there already is a simple python tool for that iirc 00:04 < Tonio_> Riddell: compiz on kde is still VERY buggy 00:05 < mhb> nixternal: is there? 00:05 < mhb> cool 00:05 < mhb> nixternal: what is it called? 00:05 < nixternal> mhb: check out the compiz forums...I am sure it is for Gnome 00:05 < Riddell> gnome has a control module for it 00:05 < nixternal> then again, creating such a script wouldn't be to difficult 00:05 < fdoving> is aquamarine the one to use? - i use compiz-kde kde-window-decorator or something like that. 00:05 < Tonio_> Riddell: we gave an attempt on 1000 computers at work on kde, you cannot imagin the series of problems we had 00:05 < mhb> I'd say creating a two button python dialog window is a way 00:06 < Riddell> fdoving: I believe the aquamarine name is dead, compiz-kde kde-window-decorator are good 00:06 < fdoving> Riddell: ok. 00:06 < Riddell> mhb: you should talk to mvo for the details of what it needs to do 00:06 < mhb> we just need someone to include the kcontrol module in gutsy 00:07 < Riddell> I don't know if it's in the upstream sources or not 00:07 < Riddell> again, mvo is the dude to ask 00:07 < Riddell> if it has disappeared upstream, there's not much we can do 00:07 < mhb> okay then. I'll try to cook something this weekend. 00:07 < mhb> and bother mvo. 00:07 < Riddell> let us know how you get on
Outcome: "Most of the needed features are in place; the only two things missing are the KControl configuration module and a simple dialog for enabling the effects. Martin Böhm volunteered to ask Michael Vogt about the things missing and he also volunteered to code the dialog in Python, if need be."
Presented by: Anthony Mercatante
A quick discussion about including the new kdebluetooth in Kubuntu Gutsy.
00:08 < Tonio_> yep, new kdebluetooth 1.0~beta4 is abou to be released 00:08 < Tonio_> it is a major change and we don't have much time to get it in 00:09 < Tonio_> I already have packages ready for this, including changes in bluez-utils and so on 00:09 < Tonio_> would the council agree on the idea on uploading the packages, considering we have to fix eventual bugs ? 00:09 < fdoving> Tonio_: does it work better than the previous one? 00:09 < Tonio_> fdoving: yes 00:09 < Tonio_> fdoving: you now can deal graphically with hid devices for example 00:10 < Tonio_> fdoving: and it is dynamic, dbus based 00:10 < Tonio_> also, UI is really much better 00:10 < Riddell> Tonio_: sounds good to me, and if you upload it'll appear in anastasia so pitti might be faster on the MIR (of course I don't use bluetooth) 00:10 < Tonio_> but it still has bugs 00:10 < toma> Tonio_: great, looking forward to that landing 00:10 < fdoving> Tonio_: i'd say go for it. the current one is weird in many ways. 00:10 < Tonio_> Riddell: so you suggest to upload before the MIR gets approved ? 00:10 < Riddell> Tonio_: yep 00:11 < Tonio_> Riddell: will do as soon as mithrandir as uploaded the bluez-utils including my changes to the package 00:11 < Tonio_> okay so everyone agrees, cool :) 00:12 < Tonio_> talking about that riddell I'll have a patch by _StefanS_ that should go in kde svn, fixes a big bug on object push :) 00:12 < Tonio_> next item then ? 00:12 < Riddell> object push? 00:12 < Tonio_> Riddell: upload via bluetooth to remove device 00:13 < Tonio_> currently upload ends up to 32kb, which is bad, he fixed that today 00:13 < Riddell> right
Dolphin as Default
Presented by: Anthony Mercatante
A lengthy discussion about Dolphin. Some of the people, including Anthony, are thinking Dolphin in KDE3 is too immature to include in Kubuntu as default. The developers discussed its bugs. They agreed that it would be available in Gutsy and they voted on whether it should be made default or not. However, the votes were split.
00:13 < Riddell> next item is spec review 00:14 < Riddell> kubuntu-dolphin-by-default is done 00:14 < Riddell> oh, except for ark issues 00:14 < kwwii> certainly the terminal emulator is gone? 00:14 < Riddell> kwwii: terminal emulator is only in the kde 4 version, we're using kde 3 dolphin 00:14 < Tonio_> Riddell: well there is much than this that concerns me 00:15 < Tonio_> Riddell: we don't have an easy way so that people can switch back to konqueror if they want 00:15 < Tonio_> and dolphin looks pretty immature, still a bit buggy 00:15 < elcuco> toma: sure thing, do i have a dead line for uploading the packages? 00:15 < mhb> so what are the main problems with dolphin? 00:16 < Tonio_> mhb: doesn't support preview, UI goes crazy while using the split view, no way to deal with ark, and no way to set the default file manager to use 00:16 < Tonio_> mhb: that's quite a lot compared to konqueror who just works nicelly 00:16 < mhb> Tonio_: it doesn't support previews? It does here. 00:16 < Tonio_> also translation for dolphin is super limited.... 00:16 < Tonio_> mhb: hu ? 00:17 < toma> Tonio_: is this about kde3 or 4 ? 00:17 < Riddell> mhb: no previews in the icons, only the information bar 00:17 < mhb> Tonio_: or do you not mean image preview? 00:17 < Tonio_> mhb: yeah, which is SO important for text files for example.... 00:18 < toma> mhb: it has in 4 00:18 < toma> mhb: it has in kde4 00:18 < Tonio_> mhb: another example of issue : how can you compress a file ? 00:18 < Tonio_> no way.... and that's just basic usage 00:18 < Riddell> nixternal: it's kvkbd we want 00:18 < nixternal> fdoving: I apologize, Riddell meant kvkbd 00:18 < nixternal> ya 00:18 < nixternal> hehe 00:18 < Tonio_> in my opinion, providing dolphin is nice, but putting it as default is too ambitious 00:18 < Riddell> Tonio_: that's why we're volunteering nixternal for it :) 00:18 < nixternal> Riddell: I will start working on that now 00:18 < toma> Tonio_: i have a "actions->compress here" in my dolphin 00:18 < fdoving> Tonio_: i use dolphin alot, but i agree on all your points so far. might not be ready for default. 00:19 < Tonio_> toma: on a file or on a folder ? :) 00:19 < mhb> Tonio_: what preview do you have in mind? 00:19 < toma> folder 00:19 < nixternal> whoa whoa! volunterring me for what now? does that mean another cookie? :) 00:19 < Tonio_> mhb: any text file 00:19 < Riddell> nixternal: for https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuAccessibilityKeyboard 00:19 < Tonio_> toma: test on a file 00:19 < nixternal> oh 00:19 < nixternal> on it now... 00:19 < yuriy> dolphin got a lot of work for kde4 right? sounds silly to me to use kde3 dolphin by default 00:19 < mhb> Tonio_: my dolphin does text&image preview well 00:19 < Tonio_> toma: or try to compress a folder as zip 00:19 < toma> Tonio_: ok 00:19 < Tonio_> mhb: how is that possible ? 00:19 < Riddell> nixternal: it also needs the relevant accessility profiles in k-d-s updated to launch the keyboard at login 00:19 < toma> Tonio_: i agree, dont make it default for kde3 00:20 < nixternal> OK 00:20 < mhb> Tonio_: I am not sure, just switch from Icons to Previews at the top menu bar 00:20 < Tonio_> mhb: hum oki it does on the right pane, not in the folder view 00:20 < Tonio_> mhb: this is what I miss the most 00:20 < Riddell> ooh, it can do Previews 00:20 < mhb> of course! 00:20 < Riddell> how weird having that as a separate view 00:20 < Riddell> well, I'm happy then 00:21 < Tonio_> Riddell: yep, that fixed on kde4 afaik 00:21 < Riddell> we just make that the default view 00:21 < mhb> Riddell: you can make it default 00:21 < Tonio_> Riddell: honnestly preview on the right pane isn't the same as in the folder view, as I use preview to looks at several files at once 00:21 < mhb> Tonio_: it DOES do preview in the folder view 00:21 < fdoving> preview works for me. for text and images. 00:21 < toma> here too 00:21 < Tonio_> ahhhhhhhhhhhhh true 00:21 < mhb> Tonio_: just switch the view mode 00:22 < Tonio_> mhb: that's a stupid thing :) 00:22 -!- TheInfinity_ [n=TheInfin@pD950F902.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 00:22 < Tonio_> oki so appart from that, can you all see the problem with the split view ? 00:22 < toma> you can probably add the compress to menu with a .desktop maybe ? 00:22 < fdoving> Tonio_: how do you set dolphin to be the default? - file assoications for directories? 00:22 < Tonio_> that's just so annoying.... 00:22 < Riddell> and porting ltsp control panel to qt if anyone fancies a large python job 00:22 < Tonio_> fdoving: inode/directory mimetype 00:23 < Riddell> (although we have more imortant python jobs) 00:23 < Tonio_> fdoving: very friendly for my mother, as you can see :) 00:23 < fdoving> Tonio_: right.. i think i had some issues with that back when dolphin for kde3 first came. i'll try to reproduce some. 00:23 < toma> Tonio_: your mother uses split view? 00:24 < Tonio_> no but some noobs do, as they just need to click a button, and then the result is just a disaster :) 00:24 < Tonio_> and well, ark misses me a lot.... 00:24 < Tonio_> well I'd just like people to give their opinon : 00:24 < Tonio_> should we : 00:24 < toma> split just splits it in two equal halfs for me 00:24 < Tonio_> 1/have dolphin on gutsy and set as default file browser 00:25 < Tonio_> 2/have dolphin but not as default 00:25 < Tonio_> 3/don't have dolphin, as it won't get mature before kde4 00:25 < Tonio_> I'd vote 2 00:25 < toma> 1 00:25 < mhb> I'd vote 1, as I like dolphin much more than Konq 00:25 * nixternal would vote 2 00:25 < Riddell> yep, I'm still for 1 00:25 < stdin> I see people in #kubuntu ask for dolphin, so 2 00:25 < mhb> and the ark menu could be solved 00:26 < Tonio_> toma: depends on the resolution in fact 00:26 < fdoving> nixternal: weird, as both gnome-ubuntu and osx have it all there without tabs. 00:26 < nixternal> Tonio_: we just got squashed :) 00:26 < Tonio_> mhb: the ark thing can't be resolved, that the problem :) 00:26 < fdoving> 2 00:26 < apachelogger> 1 00:26 < ryanakca> I haven't used dolphin excessively, but I like it, so, 2 or 1. Except, keep konq for web browsing 00:26 < nixternal> gnome-ubuntu system settings is one huge display of settings right? 00:26 < nixternal> or is that that gnome-panel or whatever 00:27 < nixternal> keep Konqui for everything! 00:27 < Tonio_> oki so just use it as default, and wait for the people to complain :) 00:27 < toma> Tonio_: if i hack it for ark, would that be a 1 ? 00:27 < nixternal> can Dolphin do help:/kubuntu? 00:27 * nixternal checks 00:27 < kwwii> gnome-ubuntu system settings is a rip-off of kubuntu if you ask me 00:27 < toma> (note the "if") 00:27 < Tonio_> toma: this and the pane bug are really annoying imho 00:27 < mhb> kwwii: and they both are a ripoff of OS X .o) 00:27 < fdoving> guys, please try to use the kio-slaves with dolphin as default. 00:27 < kwwii> mhb: exactly 00:27 < fdoving> fish://somewhere/path/ doesn't work. 00:27 < fdoving> for example 00:27 < Tonio_> toma: I can show you snapshots concerning the split 00:27 < fdoving> sftp doesn't. 00:28 < toma> Tonio_: maybe it is stored from a previous session? for me it splits exactly in the middle 00:28 < nixternal> dolphin needs some kio-slave lovin' 00:28 < Riddell> sftps works for me 00:29 < fdoving> Riddell: from kmenu->runcommand? 00:29 < nixternal> help:/ doesn't work 00:29 < Tonio_> toma: the split is in the middle 00:29 < mhb> smb:/ also 00:29 < Riddell> fdoving: from dolphin directly 00:29 < ryanakca> nixternal: don't think so, malformed URL... pitty 00:29 < nixternal> I would like to see the edit location open by default 00:29 < Tonio_> toma: but the right pane ends up by using a lot of space on the right 00:29 < Riddell> can't say I've ever used "Run Command" 00:29 < fdoving> Riddell: sure, but not from anywhere else. 00:29 < Tonio_> toma: do you use the right pane ? 00:30 < toma> Tonio_: hmm, i dont know, i have one on the left i guess 00:30 < nixternal> fish:// works 00:30 < fdoving> nixternal: not from alt+f2. 00:30 * ryanakca uses Run Command/Alt-F2 a lot... 00:30 * apachelogger notes 00:30 * fdoving too 00:30 < apachelogger> that is a geekish issue 00:30 < ryanakca> And, I'd make the right pane narrower 00:30 < Tonio_> toma: try to activate the right pane (it is by default) and you'll see :) 00:31 < Tonio_> oki so let's go with dolphin by default..... 00:31 < toma> k 00:31 < fdoving> apachelogger: if the geeks leave kubuntu.... 00:31 < toma> Tonio_: ok, if i've time i'll look at the ark thingie 00:31 * nixternal can't live w/o krunner or katapult or konqui 00:31 < Tonio_> toma: http://tonio.homelinux.org/temp/capture18.png 00:32 < Tonio_> toma: then capture19.png and you'll see 00:32 < Tonio_> Riddell: wouldn't a component chooser module for systemsettings to switch between konq and dolphin be nice ? 00:32 < toma> Tonio_: ok, that should be fixed indeed 00:32 -!- CensorBard [firstname.lastname@example.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:32 < Tonio_> Riddell: hard to explain people they have to tweak the mimetypes to switch back to konq 00:33 -!- zul [n=chuck@ubuntu/member/zul] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:33 -!- zul_ [email@example.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 00:33 < Tonio_> toma: with this and ark, you'd get a 1 from me :) 00:33 < Tonio_> but those are really big issues (especially ark) 00:33 < apachelogger> fdoving: geeks can change the default, can't they? 00:33 < toma> a 1, can you eat that like a cookie ? 00:33 < nixternal> lol 00:33 < fdoving> apachelogger: sure, they can, until a certain annoycance level. 00:33 < Tonio_> :) 00:33 < nixternal> well if you make it default, just make it easy to make it un-default :) 00:34 * ryanakca nods, in default applications in System Settings... 00:34 < nixternal> I would be for it I guess 00:34 < kwwii> geeks always know how to change thigns, non-geeks do not 00:34 < apachelogger> fdoving: well, I just think it's not a top priority issue against dolphin 00:34 < nixternal> kwwii: that isn't true, I still can't change my bed sheets :) 00:34 < Tonio_> Riddell: I wouldn't be able to code that myself, but I suspect that should be that hard 00:35 < kwwii> nixternal: you are not married yet 00:35 < Tonio_> Riddell: we need a volunteer for this :) 00:35 < apachelogger> considering the fact that it's probably possible to workaround until gutsy release 00:35 < nixternal> no, but I was married from 1996 to 2002 00:35 < nixternal> ;) 00:35 * toma kicks fdoving 00:35 < claydoh> from what I have seen on kubuntuforums, my perception is folks like dolphin, think konqui is 'bloated' 00:35 < kwwii> lol 00:35 < nixternal> hahahaha 00:35 < mhb> IMHO it really is more usable 00:35 -!- beuno [n=martin@ubuntu/member/beuno] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:35 < nixternal> claydoh is right, I was going to say that Kubuntu forums, and kde-apps say pretty much the same thing 00:36 < nixternal> OMG LOVE! 00:36 < claydoh> I like both, could not make up my mind 00:36 < nixternal> I just noticed that ctrl+l works in Dolphin just like Konqui 00:36 < Tonio_> claydoh: yep, but lots of people, including geeks, love konq and need it 00:36 < nixternal> now we just need the kio slaves for it as well 00:36 < Tonio_> I mean, I can't do what I need using dolphin 00:36 -!- TheInfinity [n=TheInfin@pD950CB7E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36 < claydoh> but I use konqui as my main ftp client 00:36 < nixternal> I use konqui for everything 00:37 < Tonio_> nixternal: same for me 00:37 < nixternal> even making cookies 00:37 < claydoh> and just about everything else it does too 00:37 < fdoving> dolphin looks nice. in kde4 it'll be usable. 00:37 < kwwii> yeah, konqi does has it's purposes 00:37 < toma> any other business? 00:37 < ryanakca> Hmm. wouldn't the konqui <-> dolphin patch for system settings be a copy-paste & tweak thing? 00:37 < kwwii> ftp client being an important one 00:37 < Tonio_> fdoving: yes, absolutly, but my concern is that we have things to fix to make it usable by default on kde3 00:37 < ryanakca> So, what was the concensus, 1 or 2 ? 00:37 < claydoh> 2 00:37 < Tonio_> kde3 might sound bloatted, but it works 00:37 < nixternal> 2 00:37 < DaSkreech> can dolphin do trash:/ ? 00:38 < Tonio_> ryanakca: there is no concensus 00:38 < stdin> DaSkreech: yes 00:38 < Tonio_> DaSkreech: it can do all ioslaves 00:38 < toma> ok, coucil vote ? 00:38 * Riddell saw lots of 1s 00:38 < Tonio_> ryanakca: 50% each 00:38 * ryanakca checks 00:38 < nixternal> Tonio_: it isn't doing the help kio slave though 00:38 < Tonio_> Riddell: 5*1, and 5*2 if my counting is correct ;) 00:39 < nixternal> actually, I think this could be something we take to a blog or the kubuntu-users list asking for recommendations possibly 00:39 < nixternal> see what the users want 00:39 < ryanakca> Tonio_: correct :) 00:39 < toma> nixternal: you expect consensus there? 00:39 * ryanakca votes for 1, btw, I had one for each. 00:39 -!- _czessi [n=Czessi@dslb-088-073-010-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 00:39 < nixternal> toma: probably not, but I don't expect it here either 00:39 < Tonio_> well let's try to improve dolphin and revote later 00:39 < kwwii> +1 for me, from the council perspective 00:39 < kwwii> :-) 00:39 < toma> councel decides in that case 00:40 < toma> iirc 00:40 < nixternal> as it stands, dolphin can't do everything I can do with 1 Konqui window open, and of course it never will especially when it comes to browsing the web 00:40 < Tonio_> if the change is just between 1 and 2, that'll just be a one line change in kds, profilerc 00:40 < Riddell> council is split 00:40 < DaSkreech> How hard is it for a user to switch back to using Konqueror? 00:40 < Tonio_> nixternal: don't you right clic for ark ? :) 00:40 < Riddell> Tonio_'s proposal seems good 00:40 < nixternal> I don't use ark really 00:40 < DaSkreech> nixternal: please stop bringing up Web browsing with dolphin 00:40 < nixternal> I drop down yakuake for ark type things 00:40 < nixternal> DaSkreech: I didn't 00:41 < Tonio_> nixternal: you can't consider this most people usage :) 00:41 < kwwii> nixternal: you just outed yourself as geek 00:41 < nixternal> I said I know you can't do it, and I won't hold that against it 00:41 < nixternal> hehe 00:41 < DaSkreech> then why bring it up? :) 00:41 < DaSkreech> I can't watch DVD's inside of k3b 00:41 < DaSkreech> I don't bring it up :) 00:41 < toma> you cant ? 00:41 < stdin> that's an idea tho :p 00:41 < nixternal> because dolphin as I have it on my system right now, doesn't do everything konqui does, nor do the shortcuts I am used to 00:42 < DaSkreech> in anycase if it's a hassle to get back to using konqueror I'll vote 2 00:42 < Tonio_> DaSkreech: that's my ig concern yes 00:42 < nixternal> I will vote 1 no problem, just as long as getting back to using Konqui is as easy as setting that radio button in system settings 00:42 -!- hjmf [n=hjmf@186.Red-81-32-9.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42 < DaSkreech> Otherwise people who are unsure either way will want to stay with what they know and slightly understand 00:42 < Riddell> nixternal: that's kindae the point of it 00:43 -!- TheInfinity_ [n=TheInfin@pD950F902.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit  00:43 < toma> ask upstream to fix that ;-) 00:43 < kwwii> can't they just start konqi on their own? 00:43 < Tonio_> make it easy to switch back, fix the split view and make it possible to use ark, and I'll vote 3 times 1 00:43 < Tonio_> ;) 00:43 < nixternal> kwwii: I was just going to say that 00:43 -!- hjmf [n=hjmf@186.Red-81-32-9.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 00:43 < DaSkreech> Riddell: remind me to poke you about the edubuntu-kde-desktop you mentioned earlier 00:43 < kwwii> I see no reason to make a decision and then make a backup for that 00:43 < nixternal> I start konqui with katapult anyways..I don't like taking my hands off of the keyboard :) 00:44 -!- coNP [n=conp@unaffiliated/conp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44 < kwwii> geek 00:44 < nixternal> haha 00:44 < toma> maybe not make it default, but put dolphin in kicker ? 00:44 < kwwii> :-) 00:44 < Tonio_> kwwii: so annoying when opening a folder on the desktop for example 00:44 * DaSkreech hugs the coolie eater 00:44 < nixternal> I will say though, Dolphin does look hot 00:44 < Tonio_> or opening the trash via kicker 00:44 < DaSkreech> .o0(cookie) 00:44 < Tonio_> that'll open dolphin everytime 00:44 < kwwii> Tonio_: after having to use gnome I realize how easy it is 00:44 < nixternal> haha, people have icons on their desktop? 00:44 < nixternal> hehe 00:44 < Tonio_> kwwii: hehe 00:45 < kwwii> you learn the certain things you use konqi for and start it for that reason 00:45 < toma> Tonio_: maybe not make it default, but put dolphin in kicker ? 00:45 < Tonio_> toma: ? 00:45 < nixternal> can we get ctrl+l to open up the line edit and highlight at least the contents so I don't ahve to backspace to remove before typing? 00:46 < Tonio_> well as I said, the council is split, so let's try to improve it the best we can, and then try to make another vote next meeting 00:46 < toma> Tonio_: just make it very easy for people to start it by putting an icon in their kicker, but not make it default 00:46 < Tonio_> toma: can make sense indeed 00:46 < Tonio_> toma: but best would be a component chooser module of course :) 00:46 < fdoving> that's how i use it today. 00:46 < toma> me too 00:46 < DaSkreech> Tonio_: what needs to be improved? 00:46 < Tonio_> Riddell: that seems sensible idea no ? 00:47 < Tonio_> DaSkreech: I just said it about 10 times :) 00:47 < DaSkreech> Just those three? 00:47 < fdoving> DaSkreech: you'll be doing the chinese translations :) 00:47 < Tonio_> DaSkreech: yep 00:47 < DaSkreech> gwai!! 00:47 < Tonio_> well that's not that easy to be done 00:47 < Riddell> Tonio_: yes 00:47 < Tonio_> Riddell: I'd agree on that aproach 00:48 < Tonio_> it can replace kopete in kicker for example 00:48 < Riddell> if we need more translations we just ask carlos to bump it towards the front of the rosetta list 00:49 < Riddell> I'm not sure on putting it in kicker, that means we have two file managers by default 00:49 < Riddell> I'd rather it was just the default for launching stuff from the kicker system menu 00:49 < Tonio_> Riddell: well as I said ideal would be component chooser :) 00:49 < Riddell> sure, well we should be able to make that happen too 00:49 < Tonio_> Riddell: ah..... well switching this back to konq would be way more difficult 00:49 < ryanakca> Umm. is the Instant Messaging tab in Default Applications (KControl/System Settings) a Kubuntu patch? I can't seem to find it in the sources... 00:49 < Riddell> although I don't see what's hard about changing mimetype priorities 00:50 < Riddell> ryanakca: nope 00:50 < Tonio_> Riddell: 90% of people don't know what mimetypes are..... 00:50 < ryanakca> Riddell: hmm. ok, thanks :) 00:50 < Riddell> maybe it works on a plugin system, I've not looked at the code for that
Outcome: "Some of the bugs mentioned by Anthony are probably fixable. The team should try to address them and vote for Dolphin at the next meeting."
Thanks for everyone joining the meeting and keeping the discussion friendly.