The following is a break down of the entire meeting by agenda items.

Klamav Updates

Presented by: Scott Kitterman Full agenda item: Klamav - should it be allowed to update itself or clamav? Tonio recently patched it out and has good policy reasons for having done so. I think clamav is kind of a special case and perhaps we ought to allow it. I've tested the functionality and it appears to be mostly harmless. There's a new upstream release and I'd like consensus on this functionality before I package it.

Klamav (the Clam antivirus frontend) is able to both update virus definitions and engine updates. However, the engine update needs a working development environment, which is not present in the default Kubuntu install. The discussion revolved around enablind/disabling the updates, and/or putting the engine updates in a Debian repository.

23:19 < ScottK> The Klamav has a function to allow itself and clamav to be updated from upstream.
23:20 < ScottK> This installs in the home directory of the user doing the upgrade and does not interfere with the packaged version.
23:20 < Riddell> kalmav is an anti virus scanner for kmail?
23:20 < ScottK> No.
23:20 < ScottK> It's the KDE GUI for Klamav
23:20 < manchicken> I think it's just a general anti-virus manager.
23:20 < Tonio_> Riddell: can do but that's more than this
23:20 < fdoving> Riddell: for kde in general, interface to clamav.
23:21 < Tonio_> to make it simple, ScottK and I discussed this a lot and we have different opinion on that point
23:21 < nixternal> my only question about klamav autoupdating itself is this...what if they do something that breaks it on our end?
23:21 < ScottK> Right.
23:21 < Riddell> update in what way?
23:21 < Riddell> presumably not the binary?
23:21 < mhb> is it just the virus definitions?
23:21 < Tonio_> klamav as a function to allow auto-updates, but not only the virus database, it can also update clamav engine and itself
23:21 < fdoving> Riddell: download source and compile to .klamav/ something.
23:21 < Tonio_> Riddell: yes, the binary too :)
23:21 < nixternal> ya, what Tonio_ said
23:22 < ScottK> So for Klamav, I agree this should be patched out.
23:22 < nixternal> just like every other anti-virus software that is out there
23:22 < Riddell> crivvens
23:22 < Tonio_> I patched to remove those functionnalities, as I consider this as to be done via packages for several reasons
23:22 < ScottK> But I think clamav ought to be allowed.
23:22 < manchicken> If we do that though, then folks are going to want us to stay pretty up to date on klamav...
23:22 < Tonio_> a simple reason is to control the binary (that we patch)
23:22 < nixternal> I have to admit though..I have been using it on-and-off for a little over a year now on both Linux and Windows, and never once did it break
23:22 < mhb> hmm, is it possible to update just the virus definitions, not the binaries?
23:22 < ScottK> mhb: Yes
23:22 < fdoving> ScottK: does suse allow this?
23:22 < ScottK> That's how it is now.
23:23 < Tonio_> another opinion is that an antivirus update might require both engine and database update
23:23 < Riddell> that seems sensible
23:23 < ScottK> fdoving: Dunno about SUSE.
23:23 < nixternal> ScottK: do you know how often they do engine updates? I don't think I have seen one in the past month honestly..but I would have to boot up my other machine to check
23:23 < Tonio_> which makes sense if a new kind of protovirus comes arround or so
23:23 < Riddell> what sort of new functionalities come from the new binaries and not the definitions?
23:23 < kwwii> if other distros are doing this without getting shit for it, we could do it too
23:23 < Tonio_> Riddell: imlproved heuristic engine for example
23:23 < ScottK> Yes, in fact if clamav 0.90.2 had released one week later, we'd have no virus definition support in Feisty at all.
23:24 < DaSkreech> What's the Ubuntu position on clamav?
23:24 < Tonio_> so both ScottK and I consider improtant to update clamav regularly, it cannot be frozen the way other stable apps are
23:24 < ScottK> It's in Universe and unsupported.
23:24 < nixternal> what kind of binary patches are we doing with it right now that may cause conflict with any updates?
23:24 < Tonio_> we just disagree on rationale
23:24 < Tonio_> I consider that should be done via -updates or -backports
23:24 < kwwii> ScottK: do you know the reasoning for that in ubuntu?
23:24 < Riddell> what if you don't have the build dependencies installed?
23:24 < Tonio_> ScottK considers it reasonable to let the binary autoupdate
23:24 < Tonio_> Riddell: it doesn't build afaik
23:25 < ScottK> apt-get build-dep clamav
23:25 < ScottK> I've tested that.
23:25 < nixternal> Riddell: if you don't have the deps it doesn't build..that I do know, but iirc it does warn you with a failure message
23:25 < Tonio_> ScottK: does it recompile the sources ?
23:25 < ScottK> Yes.
23:25 < Riddell> so for most users it won't update anyway, only developers
23:25 < Tonio_> hum oki
23:25 < Tonio_> I consider that quite dangerous
23:25 < Riddell> and developers should be clever enough to enable backports
23:25 < ScottK> Well I intended to update the Kubuntu provided docs to tell people to do that.
23:25 < Tonio_> ScottK: what if the build fails or if there is a bug in it ?
23:25 < mhb> I guess having updated packages in backports (if necessary) is not a bad solution
23:25 < toma> cant we work together with http://www.debian.org/volatile/
23:26 < nixternal> would it be possible to get some clarification from the klamav devs on some of this?
23:26 < ScottK> Worst case is it only affect that user.
23:26 < DaSkreech> Riddell: I don't think that it's developers who would be interesested in update
23:26 < DaSkreech> it would be businesses
23:26 < toma> yes, and automatically updating engines is a must
23:27 < Tonio_> ScottK: yes but for example if we have patches to fix some bugs or improve kubuntu integration, we'll miss them on update
23:27 < Riddell> having an ubuntu volatile does seem like a more sensible solution
23:27 < ScottK> Additionally, it's been this way for some time without trouble.
23:27 < toma> can't you build in an approval for the enigines with a md5 sum ?
23:27 < ScottK> The patches are my biggest concern.
23:27 < DaSkreech> and they would want to have assurance that having installed a Virus software for a supported OS that they would haev reasonable expectations that the AV would work
23:27 < Tonio_> oki so to make it clear, I think we need to negociate something :
23:27 < Tonio_> make it easier to perform clamav update on stable release, as the current process is a nightmare....
23:28 < Tonio_> and provide backports so that we keep control of updates when required
23:28 < Tonio_> but that's my personnal opinion only
23:28 < allee> afair there's a wiki page about 'updating clamav' as pkg ...
23:28 < Tonio_> DaSkreech: no one would allow auto updates in companies.....
23:29 < DaSkreech> For a virus scanner?
23:29 < Tonio_> DaSkreech: a company wouldn't even atoupdate the database, but will build its own one using clamav-getfiles
23:29 < kwwii> Tonio_: good point
23:29 < ScottK> From my perspective, we need to do backports (and I've been doing it), but allowing Klamav to update Clamav is low risk.
23:29 < Tonio_> DaSkreech: of course...., that's the way we do for all our clients, including the french parliament
23:29 < toma> Tonio_: i dont agree, i know a dozen+ companies who do
23:29 < manchicken> I don't know.  The last windows-heavy company I worked for told us that it was our responsibility to ensure that updates were installed.
23:29 < Tonio_> toma: bad admins exist :)
23:30 < kwwii> I think we should talk to a head clamav dev to help clear this up
23:30 < toma> Tonio_: that would be me ;-)
23:30 < Tonio_> toma: sorry :)
23:30 < nixternal> lol
23:30 < ScottK> So this is why Tonio_ and I thought we should bring it here.
23:30 < kwwii> erm, klamav, whatever
23:30 < allee> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/MOTU/Clamav
23:30 < ScottK> That's mostly about my attempt to get us to where we can backport clamav to Dapper.
23:31 < Riddell> I don't really know how to resolve the issue, we know the problems, it scares the heck out of me, but I guess its really useful for a number of people
23:31 < ScottK> Edgy to Feisty the clamav API changed and so backporting is a real problem.
23:31 < manchicken> I think that as long as we keep on top of klamav updates and keep them in backports we should be fine.
23:31 < toma> my vote is for a ubuntu volatile repository
23:31 < manchicken> Security software is just that important.
23:31 < ScottK> toma: Where do we find that.
23:31 < nixternal> I am with toma on this one
23:31 < toma> ScottK: find? create!
23:31 < Riddell> toma: yes, although it would take a commitment from someone to do it
23:31 < manchicken> And while viruses don't seem to be common, if someone really wants the protection offered by klamav then I think we should accommodate.
23:31 < kwwii> perhaps there is some goodReason(tm) to allow autoupdates without worry
23:32 < fdoving> i say keep the features, we can't remove features in software just because it can break something if the user decides to do stupid things.
23:32 < nixternal> actually...doesn't spamassassin allow you to autoupdate? or is that just for definitions only?
23:32 < ScottK> nixternal: Just for rules.
23:32 < nixternal> ok
23:32 < ScottK> But I've been backporting that one too.
23:32 < Riddell> fdoving: it's not the users we're worried about
23:32 < toma> Riddell: yes. true. that's why i suggested to work with debian on it, but thats just me
23:32 < fdoving> Riddell: it's all in $HOME anyway.
23:32 < Tonio_> nixternal: yep jsut for rules
23:32 < Tonio_> autoupdates for rules is sane
23:33 < ScottK> Proposal ....
23:33 < toma> Tonio_: now you got me confused ;-)
23:33 < Tonio_> another thing is that nobody would even figure out that he has to install builddeps
23:33 < nixternal> yes it is. I wonder if there is a notification service with klamav that could notify us of engine changes so we can update quickly and push
23:33 < Tonio_> but an active backport/update would fit everyone
23:33 < Tonio_> that's my second point
23:34 < Tonio_> toma: hehe :)
23:34 < ScottK> We change the patch to allow clamav, but not klamav and make sure the auto updates defaults to off and the the docs cover risks and installing the build-deps so the user is informed and has to take affirmative action.
23:34 < Tonio_> nixternal:  concerning the notification, I think so, but we need to be sure
23:34 < nixternal> I am checking out the klamav wiki now
23:34 < ScottK> For notifications on clamav updates, I'm subscribed to the announce list.
23:35 < Riddell> ScottK: ah, so the patch removes the whole possibility of the user turning on engine auto-updates?
23:35 < Tonio_> Riddell: yep that's what I patched
23:35 < ScottK> It does now.
23:35 < toma> thats bad
23:35 < fdoving> atleast make it config-key-configuratble.
23:35 < Tonio_> toma: that was my choice :)
23:35 < ScottK> I'd like to change it to default off, but allow it to be started.
23:36 < toma> +1
23:36 < DaSkreech> +1
23:36 < Riddell> I agree with ScottK's proposal, but I'd also be tempted to have rule auto-updates by default
23:36 < Riddell> having said that it's not a kubuntu specific issue really, motu council and tech board would have the final say
23:36 < ScottK> The virus definitions should and do auto update by default, it's just the engine that doesnt.
23:37  * ryanakca votes for having rule auto-updates on by default, but disable engine updates.
23:37 < Riddell> that seems to be the general consensus
23:37 < ScottK> Riddell: ?  The patch is for Klamav, so isn't it a Kubuntu decision?
23:37 < Riddell> ScottK: this is klamav feature only?
23:37 < Tonio_> Riddell: yep that concerns the all ubuntu, would be interesting to get the TB opinion
23:37 < fdoving> can that be done in kubuntu-default-settings?
23:38 < Tonio_> Riddell: it is clamav only yes
23:38 < Riddell> fdoving: I'd just do it as a patch to the code
23:38 < ScottK> Right.  The issue is what Klamav can do to clamav.
23:38 < manchicken> My only concern with that is that we get rules that require engine updates, and cause instability.
23:38 < toma> ryanakca: disable engine updates permanently, or just default off, user can enable?
23:38 < manchicken> Other than that, I'll be quiet.
23:39 < fdoving> Riddell: i'd like to be able to update my engines as the software allows, without rebuilding my own package.
23:39 < ryanakca> toma: umm. Hmm. Not permanently, default off, but when the user turns it on, have a warning saying it /might/ cause breakage, but it's unlikely, and have them aknowledge the risk
23:39 < toma> ryanakca: yes +1
23:39 < Tonio_> fdoving: well in my opinion, there should be packages update on the stable release
23:39 < fdoving> ryanakca: exactly. that sould be a default-config thing, doable from k-d-s, shouldn't it?
23:39 < Tonio_> fdoving: for the same reason there is firefox updates for example
23:39 < DaSkreech> manchicken: not sure but I think that engine updates bump versions so the rules wouldn't apply
23:40 < ryanakca> That way, if it breaks, it's not really our fault, we warned them, kind of like the restricted multimedia stuff. Umm. I dunno about the dialog part in k-d-s.
23:40 < fdoving> Tonio_: we both know that is slow if it ever happens.
23:40 < Tonio_> fdoving: not that sure imho
23:41 < Riddell> we need to move on
23:41 < Riddell> consensus seems to be off by default but keep the option for the user
23:41  * ryanakca nods
23:41 < Tonio_> ryanakca: on the other hand, you can't say "you want a safe antivirus, that's your problem, not our fault" that's unfair
23:41 < DaSkreech> with some verbage as to possible consequences
23:41 < Riddell> consesus except for Tonio_ anyway :)
23:42 < ScottK> I'm sitting on pakcaging an upstream update, so I'd just like to move forward with a reasonable consensus....
23:42 < Riddell> and volunteers for a volatile repository welcome
23:42 < Tonio_> Riddell: yep, but I'll respect the consensus, except I don't understand how can we say to the user "be safe is your responsability" :)
23:42 < Tonio_> that's insane to me
23:42 < ryanakca> ScottK: I'd go for it, but what do I know :)
23:42 < Tonio_> well let's move on
23:43 < Riddell> Tonio_: it's off by default, the issues should be well documented, that seems fair on the user
23:43 < Tonio_> Riddell: yes but off be default means nobody will take care of backports
23:43 < toma> Tonio_: calculate a md5 sum of the download and compare it to something you publish on some safe kubuntu webpage
23:43 < Tonio_> deleting the update mechanism obliges us to be respondive on updates :)
23:43 < ScottK> Tonio_: I'll continue to take care of backports.
23:43 < Tonio_> ScottK: I'd like to help you on that point
23:43 < ScottK> Great.
23:43 < Tonio_> ScottK: but that's another story
23:44 < Riddell> groovy

Outcome: "Keep the updating option disabled by default, but allow the user to enable it if he wants to. A volatile repository for the .deb packages with updates is possible, but it would need volunteers to make happen."

Bzr and Source Package Management

Presented by: Nobody

This point was not discussed due to the key person (Hobbsee) absent.

Kubuntu Gutsy Desktop Effects

Presented by: MartinBöhm

In the KubuntuGutsyPlan specification, it was decided that a similar tool to GNOME's desktop-effects would be present in Kubuntu to allow easy Compiz installation. Also the Kcontrol module should have been made available. The discussion revolved around how much is left to do before FeatureFreeze.

23:57 < mhb> With Feature Freeze coming soon, how are the Kubuntu Desktop Effects (described in KubuntuGutsyPlan) doing?
23:57 < mhb> that's my question to the people at the uds who did that
23:57 < nixternal> Beryl/Compiz should smoothly integrate with Kubuntu for those who wish to use it.
23:58 < Riddell> but all the funtionality seems to be there
23:58 < nixternal> under Third Party Compositing Support
23:58 < Riddell> except the kcontrol panel I think has gone missing in the merge
23:58 < nixternal> I wouldn't say it smoothly integrates
23:58 < mhb> and there has never been an easy way in Kubuntu to set it up
23:58 < ryanakca> What about the kwin compositing?
23:58 < nixternal> ryanakca: have you tried it for KDE 3?
23:58 < ryanakca> yeah
23:59 < nixternal> not the greatest, and now Compiz/Beryl has given a new vision for compositing
23:59 < kwwii> let's put our private parts away for this and realize the facts
23:59 < ryanakca> It ran pretty smoothly, except for a couple X crashes, but I blame it on a crappy video card
23:59 < nixternal> I have to do way to much work in order to get Compiz to work on any one of my machines, so I am not a fan of it
23:59 < fdoving> i use compiz from 'deb http://download.tuxfamily.org/3v1deb feisty eyecandy', runs smoothly for me on two machines, but it didn't work that well for toma.
00:00 < toma> nope
00:00 < Riddell> so it's not going to be the default in gutsy :)
00:00 < Riddell> but it could do with someone who it works for making the kde bits work easily
00:00 < nixternal> it doesn't work well with Intel cards, way to much work for ATI cards, and you better have an up to date Nvidia card for it
00:00 < kwwii> we will get big-time minus points for not including composting in Gutsy
00:01 < nixternal> kwwii: we can offer it of course
00:01 < mhb> yes, and I thought some of the folks who made the spec could become active and implement it
00:01 < ryanakca> Hmm. is the kwin compositing better than nothing? Pretty easy to set up, just check a box... *forgets where*
00:01 < fdoving> nixternal: works nicely on my intel 945, and my old nvidia 7100something. :)
00:01 < kwwii> compiz works great with intel cards and lots of others
00:01 < nixternal> kwwii: and I have seen more complaints from people who have installed it and had it enabled by default
00:01 < Riddell> mhb: it was imbrandon who said he might work on it, but I don't think he has
00:01 < nixternal> fdoving: doesn't work with my GF 4 MX
00:01 < kwwii> we just need a black list for known unsupported cards
00:02  * ryanakca nods
00:02 < nixternal> kwwii: anything >= Nvidia 6xxx series I would say
00:02 < nixternal> ATI support is horrible
00:02 < nixternal> although that isn't Compiz/Beryl's fault
00:02 < Riddell> kwwii: we have that, it's in the compiz startup script
00:02 < nixternal> actually, none of it is really their fault
00:02 < mhb> is there somebody who actually knows how to set up compiz fusion with aquamarine and Kcontrol settings?
00:03 < nixternal> mhb: I have it running in XGL
00:03 < Riddell> mhb: yes, just install the compiz-kde package and fusion plugins
00:03 < Riddell> but as I say I think it misses the kcontrol module
00:03 < nixternal> it does miss it
00:03 < Riddell> so that should be fixed
00:03 < kwwii> Riddell: then we are good to go, as soon as we have a control panel for it
00:03 < ryanakca> Alt-F3 -> Configure Window Behavior -> Transluecency   for the kwin compositing.
00:03 < Riddell> then it needs a button added to say "turn on compiz"
00:04 < nixternal> and I hate having Adept Notifier floating in the top left hand corner
00:04 < manchicken> It'll be nice once I get a machine that I can play with all of this on.
00:04 < Riddell> and maybe a .desktop file for adept-installer for it's easy to install
00:04 < kwwii> right, it should be as simple as possible for people like my wife
00:04 < mhb> Riddell: I could hack a simple python tool for that during the weekend
00:04 < Tonio_> nixternal: and konversation autoconnect window staying there forever......
00:04 < nixternal> ahh yes that to
00:04 < nixternal> I thought that was something else...guess it wasn't
00:04 < Riddell> mhb: for letting users turn on compiz?
00:04 < Tonio_> and kicker going insane while switching back to kwin :)
00:04 < mhb> Riddell: yep
00:04 < Riddell> mhb: sounds great
00:04 < nixternal> there already is a simple python tool for that iirc
00:04 < Tonio_> Riddell: compiz on kde is still VERY buggy
00:05 < mhb> nixternal: is there?
00:05 < mhb> cool
00:05 < mhb> nixternal: what is it called?
00:05 < nixternal> mhb: check out the compiz forums...I am sure it is for Gnome
00:05 < Riddell> gnome has a control module for it
00:05 < nixternal> then again, creating such a script wouldn't be to difficult
00:05 < fdoving> is aquamarine the one to use? - i use compiz-kde kde-window-decorator or something like that.
00:05 < Tonio_> Riddell: we gave an attempt on 1000 computers at work on kde, you cannot imagin the series of problems we had
00:05 < mhb> I'd say creating a two button python dialog window is a way
00:06 < Riddell> fdoving: I believe the aquamarine name is dead, compiz-kde kde-window-decorator are good
00:06 < fdoving> Riddell: ok.
00:06 < Riddell> mhb: you should talk to mvo for the details of what it needs to do
00:06 < mhb> we just need someone to include the kcontrol module in gutsy
00:07 < Riddell> I don't know if it's in the upstream sources or not
00:07 < Riddell> again, mvo is the dude to ask
00:07 < Riddell> if it has disappeared upstream, there's not much we can do
00:07 < mhb> okay then. I'll try to cook something this weekend.
00:07 < mhb> and bother mvo.
00:07 < Riddell> let us know how you get on

Outcome: "Most of the needed features are in place; the only two things missing are the KControl configuration module and a simple dialog for enabling the effects. Martin Böhm volunteered to ask Michael Vogt about the things missing and he also volunteered to code the dialog in Python, if need be."

New Kdebluetooth

Presented by: Anthony Mercatante

A quick discussion about including the new kdebluetooth in Kubuntu Gutsy.

00:08 < Tonio_> yep, new kdebluetooth 1.0~beta4 is abou to be released
00:08 < Tonio_> it is a major change and we don't have much time to get it in
00:09 < Tonio_> I already have packages ready for this, including changes in bluez-utils and so on
00:09 < Tonio_> would the council agree on the idea on uploading the packages, considering we have to fix eventual  bugs ?
00:09 < fdoving> Tonio_: does it work better than the previous one?
00:09 < Tonio_> fdoving: yes
00:09 < Tonio_> fdoving: you now can deal graphically with hid devices for example
00:10 < Tonio_> fdoving:  and it is dynamic, dbus based
00:10 < Tonio_> also, UI is really much better
00:10 < Riddell> Tonio_: sounds good to me, and if you upload it'll appear in anastasia so pitti might be faster on the MIR (of course I don't use bluetooth)
00:10 < Tonio_> but it still has bugs
00:10 < toma> Tonio_: great, looking forward to that landing
00:10 < fdoving> Tonio_: i'd say go for it. the current one is weird in many ways.
00:10 < Tonio_> Riddell: so you suggest to upload before the MIR gets approved ?
00:10 < Riddell> Tonio_: yep
00:11 < Tonio_> Riddell: will do as soon as mithrandir as uploaded the bluez-utils including my changes to the package
00:11 < Tonio_> okay so everyone agrees, cool :)
00:12 < Tonio_> talking about that riddell I'll have a patch by _StefanS_ that should go in kde svn, fixes a big bug on object push :)
00:12 < Tonio_> next item then ?
00:12 < Riddell> object push?
00:12 < Tonio_> Riddell: upload via bluetooth to remove device
00:13 < Tonio_> currently upload ends up to 32kb, which is bad, he fixed that today
00:13 < Riddell> right

Outcome: "Approved"

Dolphin as Default

Presented by: Anthony Mercatante

A lengthy discussion about Dolphin. Some of the people, including Anthony, are thinking Dolphin in KDE3 is too immature to include in Kubuntu as default. The developers discussed its bugs. They agreed that it would be available in Gutsy and they voted on whether it should be made default or not. However, the votes were split.

00:13 < Riddell> next item is spec review
00:14 < Riddell> kubuntu-dolphin-by-default is done
00:14 < Riddell> oh, except for ark issues
00:14 < kwwii> certainly the terminal emulator is gone?
00:14 < Riddell> kwwii: terminal emulator is only in the kde 4 version, we're using kde 3 dolphin
00:14 < Tonio_> Riddell: well there is much than this that concerns me
00:15 < Tonio_> Riddell: we don't have an easy way so that people can switch back to konqueror if they want
00:15 < Tonio_> and dolphin looks pretty immature, still a bit buggy
00:15 < elcuco> toma: sure thing, do i have a dead line for uploading the packages?
00:15 < mhb> so what are the main problems with dolphin?
00:16 < Tonio_> mhb: doesn't support preview, UI goes crazy while using the split view, no way to deal with ark, and no way to set the default file manager to use
00:16 < Tonio_> mhb: that's quite a lot compared to konqueror who just works nicelly
00:16 < mhb> Tonio_: it doesn't support previews? It does here.
00:16 < Tonio_> also translation for dolphin is super limited....
00:16 < Tonio_> mhb: hu ?
00:17 < toma> Tonio_: is this about kde3 or 4 ?
00:17 < Riddell> mhb: no previews in the icons, only the information bar
00:17 < mhb> Tonio_: or do you not mean image preview?
00:17 < Tonio_> mhb: yeah, which is SO important for text files for example....
00:18 < toma> mhb: it has in 4
00:18 < toma> mhb: it has in kde4
00:18 < Tonio_> mhb: another example of issue : how can you compress a file ?
00:18 < Tonio_> no way.... and that's just basic usage
00:18 < Riddell> nixternal: it's kvkbd we want
00:18 < nixternal> fdoving: I apologize, Riddell meant kvkbd
00:18 < nixternal> ya
00:18 < nixternal> hehe
00:18 < Tonio_> in my opinion, providing dolphin is nice, but putting it as default is too ambitious
00:18 < Riddell> Tonio_: that's why we're volunteering nixternal for it :)
00:18 < nixternal> Riddell: I will start working on that now
00:18 < toma> Tonio_: i have a "actions->compress here" in my dolphin
00:18 < fdoving> Tonio_: i use dolphin alot, but i agree on all your points so far. might not be ready for default.
00:19 < Tonio_> toma: on a file or on a folder ? :)
00:19 < mhb> Tonio_: what preview do you have in mind?
00:19 < toma> folder
00:19 < nixternal> whoa whoa! volunterring me for what now? does that mean another cookie? :)
00:19 < Tonio_> mhb: any text file
00:19 < Riddell> nixternal: for https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuAccessibilityKeyboard
00:19 < Tonio_> toma: test on a file
00:19 < nixternal> oh
00:19 < nixternal> on it now...
00:19 < yuriy> dolphin got a lot of work for kde4 right? sounds silly to me to use kde3 dolphin by default
00:19 < mhb> Tonio_: my dolphin does text&image preview well
00:19 < Tonio_> toma: or try to compress a folder as zip
00:19 < toma> Tonio_: ok
00:19 < Tonio_> mhb: how is that possible ?
00:19 < Riddell> nixternal: it also needs the relevant accessility profiles in k-d-s updated to launch the keyboard at login
00:19 < toma> Tonio_: i agree, dont make it default for kde3
00:20 < nixternal> OK
00:20 < mhb> Tonio_: I am not sure, just switch from Icons to Previews at the top menu bar
00:20 < Tonio_> mhb: hum oki it does on the right pane, not in the folder view
00:20 < Tonio_> mhb: this is what I miss the most
00:20 < Riddell> ooh, it can do Previews
00:20 < mhb> of course!
00:20 < Riddell> how weird having that as a separate view
00:20 < Riddell> well, I'm happy then
00:21 < Tonio_> Riddell: yep, that fixed on kde4 afaik
00:21 < Riddell> we just make that the default view
00:21 < mhb> Riddell: you can make it default
00:21 < Tonio_> Riddell: honnestly preview on the right pane isn't the same as in the folder view, as I use preview to looks at several files at once
00:21 < mhb> Tonio_: it DOES do preview in the folder view
00:21 < fdoving> preview works for me. for text and images.
00:21 < toma> here too
00:21 < Tonio_> ahhhhhhhhhhhhh true
00:21 < mhb> Tonio_: just switch the view mode
00:22 < Tonio_> mhb: that's a stupid thing :)
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00:22 < Tonio_> oki so appart from that, can you all see the problem with the split view ?
00:22 < toma> you can probably add the compress to menu with a .desktop maybe ?
00:22 < fdoving> Tonio_: how do you set dolphin to be the default? - file assoications for directories?
00:22 < Tonio_> that's just so annoying....
00:22 < Riddell> and porting ltsp control panel to qt if anyone fancies a large python job
00:22 < Tonio_> fdoving: inode/directory mimetype
00:23 < Riddell> (although we have more imortant python jobs)
00:23 < Tonio_> fdoving: very friendly for my mother, as you can see :)
00:23 < fdoving> Tonio_: right.. i think i had some issues with that back when dolphin for kde3 first came. i'll try to reproduce some.
00:23 < toma> Tonio_: your mother uses split view?
00:24 < Tonio_> no but some noobs do, as they just need to click a button, and then the result is just a disaster :)
00:24 < Tonio_> and well, ark misses me a lot....
00:24 < Tonio_> well I'd just like people to give their opinon :
00:24 < Tonio_> should we :
00:24 < toma> split just splits it in two equal halfs for me
00:24 < Tonio_> 1/have dolphin on gutsy and set as default file browser
00:25 < Tonio_> 2/have dolphin but not as default
00:25 < Tonio_> 3/don't have dolphin, as it won't get mature before kde4
00:25 < Tonio_> I'd vote 2
00:25 < toma> 1
00:25 < mhb> I'd vote 1, as I like dolphin much more than Konq
00:25  * nixternal would vote 2
00:25 < Riddell> yep, I'm still for 1
00:25 < stdin> I see people in #kubuntu ask for dolphin, so 2
00:25 < mhb> and the ark menu could be solved
00:26 < Tonio_> toma: depends on the resolution in fact
00:26 < fdoving> nixternal: weird, as both gnome-ubuntu and osx have it all there without tabs.
00:26 < nixternal> Tonio_: we just got squashed :)
00:26 < Tonio_> mhb: the ark thing can't be resolved, that the problem :)
00:26 < fdoving> 2
00:26 < apachelogger> 1
00:26 < ryanakca> I haven't used dolphin excessively, but I like it, so, 2 or 1. Except, keep konq for web browsing
00:26 < nixternal> gnome-ubuntu system settings is one huge display of settings right?
00:26 < nixternal> or is that that gnome-panel or whatever
00:27 < nixternal> keep Konqui for everything!
00:27 < Tonio_> oki so just use it as default, and wait for the people to complain :)
00:27 < toma> Tonio_: if i hack it for ark, would that be a 1 ?
00:27 < nixternal> can Dolphin do help:/kubuntu?
00:27  * nixternal checks
00:27 < kwwii> gnome-ubuntu system settings is a rip-off of kubuntu if you ask me
00:27 < toma> (note the "if")
00:27 < Tonio_> toma: this and the pane bug are really annoying imho
00:27 < mhb> kwwii: and they both are a ripoff of OS X .o)
00:27 < fdoving> guys, please try to use the kio-slaves with dolphin as default.
00:27 < kwwii> mhb: exactly
00:27 < fdoving> fish://somewhere/path/ doesn't work.
00:27 < fdoving> for example
00:27 < Tonio_> toma: I can show you snapshots concerning the split
00:27 < fdoving> sftp doesn't.
00:28 < toma> Tonio_: maybe it is stored from a previous session? for me it splits exactly in the middle
00:28 < nixternal> dolphin needs some kio-slave lovin'
00:28 < Riddell> sftps works for me
00:29 < fdoving> Riddell: from kmenu->runcommand?
00:29 < nixternal> help:/ doesn't work
00:29 < Tonio_> toma: the split is in the middle
00:29 < mhb> smb:/ also
00:29 < Riddell> fdoving: from dolphin directly
00:29 < ryanakca> nixternal: don't think so, malformed URL... pitty
00:29 < nixternal> I would like to see the edit location open by default
00:29 < Tonio_> toma: but the right pane ends up by using a lot of space on the right
00:29 < Riddell> can't say I've ever used "Run Command"
00:29 < fdoving> Riddell: sure, but not from anywhere else.
00:29 < Tonio_> toma: do you use the right pane ?
00:30 < toma> Tonio_: hmm, i dont know, i have one on the left i guess
00:30 < nixternal> fish:// works
00:30 < fdoving> nixternal: not from alt+f2.
00:30  * ryanakca uses Run Command/Alt-F2 a lot... 
00:30  * apachelogger notes
00:30  * fdoving too
00:30 < apachelogger> that is a geekish issue
00:30 < ryanakca> And, I'd make the right pane narrower
00:30 < Tonio_> toma: try to activate the right pane (it is by default) and you'll see :)
00:31 < Tonio_> oki so let's go with dolphin by default.....
00:31 < toma> k
00:31 < fdoving> apachelogger: if the geeks leave kubuntu....
00:31 < toma> Tonio_: ok, if i've time i'll look at the ark thingie
00:31  * nixternal can't live w/o krunner or katapult or konqui
00:31 < Tonio_> toma: http://tonio.homelinux.org/temp/capture18.png
00:32 < Tonio_> toma: then capture19.png and you'll see
00:32 < Tonio_> Riddell: wouldn't a component chooser module for systemsettings to switch between konq and dolphin be nice ?
00:32 < toma> Tonio_: ok, that should be fixed indeed
00:32 -!- CensorBard [n=knalty@c-69-181-108-227.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
00:32 < Tonio_> Riddell: hard to explain people they have to tweak the mimetypes to switch back to konq
00:33 -!- zul [n=chuck@ubuntu/member/zul] has quit [Nick collision from services.]
00:33 -!- zul_ [n=chuck@mail.edgewater.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
00:33 < Tonio_> toma: with this and ark, you'd get a 1 from me :)
00:33 < Tonio_> but those are really big issues (especially ark)
00:33 < apachelogger> fdoving: geeks can change the default, can't they?
00:33 < toma> a 1, can you eat that like a cookie ?
00:33 < nixternal> lol
00:33 < fdoving> apachelogger: sure, they can, until a certain annoycance level.
00:33 < Tonio_> :)
00:33 < nixternal> well if you make it default, just make it easy to make it un-default :)
00:34  * ryanakca nods, in default applications in System Settings...
00:34 < nixternal> I would be for it I guess
00:34 < kwwii> geeks always know how to change thigns, non-geeks do not
00:34 < apachelogger> fdoving: well, I just think it's not a top priority issue against dolphin
00:34 < nixternal> kwwii: that isn't true, I still can't change my bed sheets :)
00:34 < Tonio_> Riddell: I wouldn't be able to code that myself, but I suspect that should be that hard
00:35 < kwwii> nixternal: you are not married yet
00:35 < Tonio_> Riddell: we need a volunteer for this :)
00:35 < apachelogger> considering the fact that it's probably possible to workaround until gutsy release
00:35 < nixternal> no, but I was married from 1996 to 2002
00:35 < nixternal> ;)
00:35  * toma kicks fdoving
00:35 < claydoh>  from what I have seen on kubuntuforums, my perception is folks like dolphin, think konqui is 'bloated'
00:35 < kwwii> lol
00:35 < nixternal> hahahaha
00:35 < mhb> IMHO it really is more usable
00:35 -!- beuno [n=martin@ubuntu/member/beuno] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]
00:35 < nixternal> claydoh is right, I was going to say that Kubuntu forums, and kde-apps say pretty much the same thing
00:36 < nixternal> OMG LOVE!
00:36 < claydoh> I like both, could not make up my mind
00:36 < nixternal> I just noticed that ctrl+l works in Dolphin just like Konqui
00:36 < Tonio_> claydoh: yep, but lots of people, including geeks, love konq and need it
00:36 < nixternal> now we just need the kio slaves for it as well
00:36 < Tonio_> I mean, I can't do what I need using dolphin
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00:36 < claydoh> but I use konqui as my main ftp client
00:36 < nixternal> I use konqui for everything
00:37 < Tonio_> nixternal: same for me
00:37 < nixternal> even making cookies
00:37 < claydoh> and just about everything else it does too
00:37 < fdoving> dolphin looks nice. in kde4 it'll be usable.
00:37 < kwwii> yeah, konqi does has it's purposes
00:37 < toma> any other business?
00:37 < ryanakca> Hmm. wouldn't the konqui <-> dolphin patch for system settings be a copy-paste & tweak thing?
00:37 < kwwii> ftp client being an important one
00:37 < Tonio_> fdoving: yes, absolutly, but my concern is that we have things to fix to make it usable by default on kde3
00:37 < ryanakca> So, what was the concensus, 1 or 2 ?
00:37 < claydoh> 2
00:37 < Tonio_> kde3 might sound bloatted, but it works
00:37 < nixternal> 2
00:37 < DaSkreech> can dolphin do trash:/ ?
00:38 < Tonio_> ryanakca: there is no concensus
00:38 < stdin> DaSkreech: yes
00:38 < Tonio_> DaSkreech: it can do all ioslaves
00:38 < toma> ok, coucil vote ?
00:38  * Riddell saw lots of 1s
00:38 < Tonio_> ryanakca: 50% each
00:38  * ryanakca checks
00:38 < nixternal> Tonio_: it isn't doing the help kio slave though
00:38 < Tonio_> Riddell: 5*1, and 5*2 if my counting is correct ;)
00:39 < nixternal> actually, I think this could be something we take to a blog or the kubuntu-users list asking for recommendations possibly
00:39 < nixternal> see what the users want
00:39 < ryanakca> Tonio_: correct :)
00:39 < toma> nixternal: you expect consensus there?
00:39  * ryanakca votes for 1, btw, I had one for each.
00:39 -!- _czessi [n=Czessi@dslb-088-073-010-184.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
00:39 < nixternal> toma: probably not, but I don't expect it here either
00:39 < Tonio_> well let's try to improve dolphin and revote later
00:39 < kwwii> +1 for me, from the council perspective
00:39 < kwwii> :-)
00:39 < toma> councel decides in that case
00:40 < toma> iirc
00:40 < nixternal> as it stands, dolphin can't do everything I can do with 1 Konqui window open, and of course it never will especially when it comes to browsing the web
00:40 < Tonio_> if the change is just between 1 and 2, that'll just be a one line change in kds, profilerc
00:40 < Riddell> council is split
00:40 < DaSkreech> How hard is it for a user to switch back to using Konqueror?
00:40 < Tonio_> nixternal: don't you right clic for ark ? :)
00:40 < Riddell> Tonio_'s proposal seems good
00:40 < nixternal> I don't use ark really
00:40 < DaSkreech> nixternal: please stop bringing up Web browsing with dolphin
00:40 < nixternal> I drop down yakuake for ark type things
00:40 < nixternal> DaSkreech: I didn't
00:41 < Tonio_> nixternal: you can't consider this most people usage :)
00:41 < kwwii> nixternal: you just outed yourself as geek
00:41 < nixternal> I said I know you can't do it, and I won't hold that against it
00:41 < nixternal> hehe
00:41 < DaSkreech> then why bring it up? :)
00:41 < DaSkreech> I can't watch DVD's inside of k3b
00:41 < DaSkreech> I don't bring it up :)
00:41 < toma> you cant ?
00:41 < stdin> that's an idea tho :p
00:41 < nixternal> because dolphin as I have it on my system right now, doesn't do everything konqui does, nor do the shortcuts I am used to
00:42 < DaSkreech> in anycase if it's a hassle to get back to using konqueror I'll vote 2
00:42 < Tonio_> DaSkreech: that's my ig concern yes
00:42 < nixternal> I will vote 1 no problem, just as long as getting back to using Konqui is as easy as setting that radio button in system settings
00:42 -!- hjmf [n=hjmf@186.Red-81-32-9.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
00:42 < DaSkreech> Otherwise people who are unsure either way will want to stay with what they know and slightly understand
00:42 < Riddell> nixternal: that's kindae the point of it
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00:43 < toma> ask upstream to fix that ;-)
00:43 < kwwii> can't they just start konqi on their own?
00:43 < Tonio_> make it easy to switch back, fix the split view and make it possible to use ark, and I'll vote 3 times 1
00:43 < Tonio_> ;)
00:43 < nixternal> kwwii: I was just going to say that
00:43 -!- hjmf [n=hjmf@186.Red-81-32-9.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
00:43 < DaSkreech> Riddell: remind me to poke you about the edubuntu-kde-desktop you mentioned earlier
00:43 < kwwii> I see no reason to make a decision and then make a backup for that
00:43 < nixternal> I start konqui with katapult anyways..I don't like taking my hands off of the keyboard :)
00:44 -!- coNP [n=conp@unaffiliated/conp] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
00:44 < kwwii> geek
00:44 < nixternal> haha
00:44 < toma> maybe not make it default, but put dolphin in kicker ?
00:44 < kwwii> :-)
00:44 < Tonio_> kwwii: so annoying when opening a folder on the desktop for example
00:44  * DaSkreech hugs the coolie eater
00:44 < nixternal> I will say though, Dolphin does look hot
00:44 < Tonio_> or opening the trash via kicker
00:44 < DaSkreech> .o0(cookie)
00:44 < Tonio_> that'll open dolphin everytime
00:44 < kwwii> Tonio_: after having to use gnome I realize how easy it is
00:44 < nixternal> haha, people have icons on their desktop?
00:44 < nixternal> hehe
00:44 < Tonio_> kwwii: hehe
00:45 < kwwii> you learn the certain things you use konqi for and start it for that reason
00:45 < toma> Tonio_: maybe not make it default, but put dolphin in kicker ?
00:45 < Tonio_> toma: ?
00:45 < nixternal> can we get ctrl+l to open up the line edit and highlight at least the contents so I don't ahve to backspace to remove before typing?
00:46 < Tonio_> well as I said, the council is split, so let's try to improve it the best we can, and then try to make another vote next meeting
00:46 < toma> Tonio_: just make it very easy for people to start it by putting an icon in their kicker, but not make it default
00:46 < Tonio_> toma: can make sense indeed
00:46 < Tonio_> toma: but best would be a component chooser module of course :)
00:46 < fdoving> that's how i use it today.
00:46 < toma> me too
00:46 < DaSkreech> Tonio_: what needs to be improved?
00:46 < Tonio_> Riddell: that seems sensible idea no ?
00:47 < Tonio_> DaSkreech: I just said it about 10 times :)
00:47 < DaSkreech> Just those three?
00:47 < fdoving> DaSkreech: you'll be doing the chinese translations :)
00:47 < Tonio_> DaSkreech: yep
00:47 < DaSkreech> gwai!!
00:47 < Tonio_> well that's not that easy to be done
00:47 < Riddell> Tonio_: yes
00:47 < Tonio_> Riddell: I'd agree on that aproach
00:48 < Tonio_> it can replace kopete in kicker for example
00:48 < Riddell> if we need more translations we just ask carlos to bump it towards the front of the rosetta list
00:49 < Riddell> I'm not sure on putting it in kicker, that means we have two file managers by default
00:49 < Riddell> I'd rather it was just the default for launching stuff from the kicker system menu
00:49 < Tonio_> Riddell: well as I said ideal would be component chooser :)
00:49 < Riddell> sure, well we should be able to make that happen too
00:49 < Tonio_> Riddell: ah..... well switching this back to konq would be way more difficult
00:49 < ryanakca> Umm. is the Instant Messaging tab in Default Applications (KControl/System Settings) a Kubuntu patch? I can't seem to find it in the sources...
00:49 < Riddell> although I don't see what's hard about changing mimetype priorities
00:50 < Riddell> ryanakca: nope
00:50 < Tonio_> Riddell: 90% of people don't know what mimetypes are.....
00:50 < ryanakca> Riddell: hmm. ok, thanks :)
00:50 < Riddell> maybe it works on a plugin system, I've not looked at the code for that

Outcome: "Some of the bugs mentioned by Anthony are probably fixable. The team should try to address them and vote for Dolphin at the next meeting."

Conclusion

Thanks for everyone joining the meeting and keeping the discussion friendly.