IRC Meeting June 19, 2009

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lubuntu irc meet up on June 19, 2009

Lubuntu IRC Meetup

Topic Which Applications do we include in lubuntu?

Place

Time

(16:58:53) Das Thema für #lubuntu ist: Lubuntu project channel. Project details at https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop

<nowiki>(17:00:25) starfall87 [n=shae@72.172.203.126] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(17:01:37) pcman: can we start now?

(17:02:22) starfall87: I guess so? I have 10:02

(17:03:06) pcman: ok

(17:03:09) pcman: MarioB: ?

(17:03:22) MarioB: AndrewLe1: ApOgEE-: elfgoh: hyperair: johnthng: pastund: payne: pcman: royal: starfall87: Hello everyone

(17:03:29) elfgoh: Hello all

(17:03:31) AndrewLe1: hi

(17:03:37) pastund: hi

(17:03:42) starfall87: hi

(17:03:51) johnthng hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).

(17:04:07) AndrewLe1 heißt jetzt AndrewLee

<nowiki>(17:04:33) ziroday [n=nick@ubuntu/member/ziroday] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(17:04:40) MarioB: ziroday: hi

(17:04:51) ziroday: MarioB: hey! Just came to watch Smile :)

(17:04:59) pastund: hi

(17:05:23) MarioB: Great to have you all here! I have a suggestion for this meeting as follows

(17:05:44) MarioB: Topics 1. Who is here/ Where are you from 2. Defining Goal of lubuntu 3. Defining Applications 4. Next steps 5. Suggestions how to coordinate work

(17:06:12) MarioB: Does anyone want to add/change anything?

(17:06:27) starfall87: That sounds like the best idea, I think

MarioB MarioB1

(17:06:55) MarioB: ok, good

(17:07:02) pastund: k

(17:07:10) elfgoh: +

(17:07:36) starfall87: 1. Shae "starfall87" Smittle, Missouri, USA

(17:08:03) pastund: Daniel; Germany

(17:08:12) MarioB: Mario "MarioB", Berlin, Germany

(17:08:21) elfgoh: Luther, Singapore

(17:09:16) payne: Payne, Malaysia

(17:09:42) ***pcman is from Taiwan.

(17:10:06) ziroday: Nick, Singapore (but just here to watch)

(17:11:09) starfall87: That may be everyone? We sure have quite the diverse group here!

(17:11:28) MarioB: great

(17:11:56) MarioB: 2. Defining Goal of lubuntu

(17:12:31) elfgoh: hmmm we missed AndrewLee i think?

(17:12:49) elfgoh: THough it is quite obvious that AndrewLee is *cough* AndrewLee

<nowiki>(17:13:01) mounier [n=mounier@151.23.170.52] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(17:13:08) MarioB: elfgoh: yeah, Andrew is from Taiwan too

(17:13:16) MarioB: mounier: welcome

(17:13:37) MarioB: mounier: we are at point 1. who wer are/where we are from

(17:15:04) MarioB: 2. Defining the goals: I believe an obvious goal is that we might have the chance to build an LXDE distro, that could be endorsed by Canonical.

<nowiki>(17:15:25) johnthng [n=John_Thn@119.234.29.253] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(17:15:47) MarioB: Already there are numerouse distros out there using LXDE. We are not against any distro, but rather want to share results and work together with everyone

(17:16:47) MarioB: So, I personally hope, that we can form a group of people to form a sustainable project

(17:17:31) MarioB: I believe this project could be a chance to bring people from different Ubuntu/LXDE derivates and distros together

(17:18:40) starfall87: I think that that nicely sums up the goals of lubuntu and can't think of anything appropriate to add to them.

(17:19:08) MarioB: we had a discussion with Shae (starfall87) but I am happy we agree on this

(17:19:24) MarioB: starfall87: thanks

(17:19:57) starfall87: The only thing I can think of, but this may blur the lines with the next topic is some sort of package philosophy, if that makes any sens

(17:19:58) starfall87: e

(17:20:38) pcman: starfall87: what do you mean by package philosophy?

(17:20:49) MarioB: in terms of overall goals: I wish that we could have a distro that could work in countries like Afghanistan or in Africa, where Internet connections is slow or not available. So, I would like to see a distro that includes functionalities (many applications for different uses)

(17:21:53) MarioB: besides thinking about lightweightness, we have to think about ease of use and support of languages - difficult decisions

(17:22:01) starfall87: Well I think that there are several layers to that, such as the discussed idea to have lubuntu include many applications like Mario is describing

(17:22:36) starfall87: From my experience, it seems to always boil down to lightweightness vs ease of use vs features

(17:22:44) MarioB: starfall87: pcman: yes, some people also suggested to have a minimal lubuntu version and a full featured one

(17:23:26) starfall87: I do not think that would be much of a problem creating some sort of lubuntu-core and also a full lubuntu-desktop kind of configuration.

(17:23:35) pcman: I suggest to have only one distro.

(17:23:48) pcman: having a 'lightweight' version is not needed at all.

(17:24:10) pcman: if your distro itself is not lightweight enough, there is no need to build this distro since we already have xubuntu.

(17:24:21) pcman: so, no need for lightweight version.

(17:24:30) johnthng: it is up to customizing

(17:24:48) johnthng: people can derived out from lubuntu if they want

(17:24:52) pcman: second, for areas without internet connection, they need a cd installing everything.

(17:24:56) johnthng: just like puppylinux

(17:25:04) MarioB: pcman: we can leave the minimal version to someone else, who wants to do it. we just have to take the decision, which we want to go.

(17:25:20) pcman: and those people are the targe audiance of lightweight systems.

(17:25:27) ***AndrewLee is from Taiwan

(17:25:49) pcman: maintaining a distro is time-consuming. So having to maintain two projects is not a very good idea, I think.

(17:26:08) MarioB: +1

(17:26:21) pastund: I have a question to 2 as a common PC user. What is the main GUI concept for lubuntu? I noticed LXDE as I was looking for my mother a software package for email/writing letters/internet. TinyCore/DamnSmallLinux were to freaky for my mother Smile :)

(17:26:59) pcman: IMO, there is no need to add an geek-only software just because it's lightweight.

(17:27:19) pcman: usability is the most important.

(17:27:28) starfall87: pastund: I actually like this question, are we going to try to stick to default LXDE, or give it a bit of a Ubuntu twist like Ubuntu does to its other DEs

(17:27:30) elfgoh: I think the minimal version will be largely similar to ubuntu mini.iso anyway.... So whoever wants to create it can go ahead... but not the Lubuntu team

(17:27:31) johnthng: lightweight and usability are both important

(17:27:40) pcman: so, if evolution or thunderbird are ok, feel free to add them.

(17:28:01) ***hyperair is loong jin from malaysia. sorry for the late intro; i just returned from dinner

(17:28:11) pcman: those heavier apps are not running in your systray. you just open them when needed

(17:28:25) pcman: so, there is no visible impact on system resource usage.

(17:28:40) hyperair: evolution is actually quite the behemoth, and i keep it running in the background, but minimized

(17:29:14) pcman: we need something that really works, not something lightweight bug looks geek-friendly.

(17:29:19) hyperair: agreed

(17:29:25) johnthng: evolution is slow when i have a lot of appointments + calendars

(17:29:46) MarioB: maybe lets stick with #2 for the moment: Do we agree on the goal to make an lightweight, easy to use and full featured (in regards to applications) distro?

(17:29:48) hyperair: i'd say thunderbird's good, esp 3.0, but it lacks some features compared to evolution

(17:29:55) pcman: so, for those distros using dillo as the main browser, I don't think this is the correct approach for a lightweight distro.

(17:30:13) MarioB: then we can go throught the applications step by step

(17:30:22) pcman: something fast, lightweight, but broken, is not useful.

(17:30:40) johnthng: hyperair: but are those features very important?

(17:30:55) pcman: I don't agree on the term 'full-featured.'

(17:31:00) pcman: how to define 'full'?

(17:31:10) payne: +1

(17:31:13) MarioB: pcman: whats a better term?

(17:31:14) elfgoh: I agree that functionality is important, but in our consideration of the applications, I think being lightweight should have a higher priority than functionality

(17:31:39) pcman: I suggest only include the mostly used apps.

(17:31:40) johnthng: acceptable distro will be a better word, acceptable out of the box

(17:31:53) hyperair: johnthng: they are if you need to use exchange. thunderbird's exchange support sucks.

(17:32:02) starfall87: I have to disagree with this, if you include some super-lightweight program, but it does not do what most people expect, then people will just install the other program.

(17:32:17) pcman: totally agree with starfall87

(17:32:18) elfgoh: "functionally acceptable" to replace "full featured"?

(17:32:20) MarioB: pcman: acceptable is difficult to market, but i agree

(17:32:25) johnthng: but are they going to use exchange in the first place in areas

(17:32:29) pcman: agree "functionally acceptable".

(17:32:43) AndrewLee: functionality =! usability

(17:32:49) pcman: MarioB: if you need 'full-featured' desktop, go with ubuntu.

(17:33:01) pcman: or kubuntu.

(17:33:19) pcman: being FULL-featured is not our goal, IMHO.

(17:33:28) payne: MoonOS quite functional, just saying

(17:33:57) MarioB: pcman: depends on what you define as full-featured.

(17:34:08) pcman: MarioB: yeah

(17:34:09) MarioB: pcman: but i see your point

(17:34:25) mounier: LXDE is a desktop environment created with the objective of creating a graphical interface very flexible, lightweight and responsive. The source code of LXDE is licensed in part under the terms of General Public License and partly under the LGPL license.

(17:34:43) pcman: IMO, browser + media players + mail clients + office + small tools are quite enough.

(17:35:26) hyperair: do we really need more than one mail client?

(17:35:38) pcman: hyperair: I don't think so.

(17:35:47) payne: I agree, with pcman, if users want more they may add it later

(17:35:53) pcman: payne: yes.

(17:35:58) MarioB: i agree with taking applications that are widely used. In regards to the group of users I am thinking of (emerging countries standard users) I think it is the best choice too.

(17:36:56) AndrewLee: appropriate functionality

(17:37:20) elfgoh: hmmm maybe "appropriate functionality and usability"?

(17:37:25) AndrewLee: yes

(17:37:26) pcman: Windows includes browser, mail client, media players, and accessories by default.

(17:37:28) AndrewLee: agree

(17:37:48) pcman: most people will install office later.

(17:38:12) MarioB: pcman: depends who you define as users

(17:38:25) pcman: MarioB: most of the windows users do this.

(17:38:30) johnthng: m$ office need to pay ...

(17:38:42) pcman: johnthng: that's just an example.

(17:38:43) hyperair: ubuntu usually boasts that it's default installation is fully featured, since it contains pretty much everything the average user needs.

(17:38:46) AndrewLee: install OOo

(17:38:47) johnthng: on eee, they bundled ms works

(17:38:51) MarioB: it is actually a strength of open source/free software that we can offer this with office.

(17:38:54) johnthng: instead of office

(17:39:01) hyperair: i think lubuntu should have OOo

(17:39:08) MarioB: besides that in Europe for example most Windows computers also come already with office preinstalled

(17:39:18) pcman: anyway, I'm saying that most of the users only expect browser+mail+office+accessories in their desktop.

<nowiki>(17:39:19) McLovin926 [n=Nunya@76.127.213.15] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(17:39:21) ziroday: Isn't OOo somewhat heavy? What about abiword+gnumeric?

(17:39:36) pcman: so, we don't need to add to many apps.

(17:39:42) McLovin926: hello, i am sorry foe being late, was up very late with son

(17:39:46) payne: maybe we could have option for users whether what to install or not to install

(17:39:48) pcman: ziroday: is abiword really working with M$ office files?

(17:39:49) johnthng: there's no presentation program standalone ...

(17:40:01) ziroday: pcman: .doc yes, not sure about .docx

(17:40:08) elfgoh: ziroday: in my experience OOo has the best compatibility with the MSO file formats

(17:40:18) pcman: ziroday: *.doc in Chinese never works on my abiword.

(17:40:21) starfall87: ziroday: this will constantly plague our decision. I think that OO.o is the only way to go at the moment because of docx and having a presentation program.

(17:40:25) McLovin926: i have to run down the street to get something for my son, i will be back in 10 minutes\

(17:40:34) ***ziroday nods

(17:40:40) MarioB: McLovin926: everyone introduced himself already.. Who we are/where are we from..

(17:40:44) pcman: since msoffice, like it or not, are widely used, we need a office suite supporting msoffice formats.

(17:40:57) MarioB: McLovin926: We are discussing the goals of lubuntu

(17:41:10) pcman: so, oo.o is the best choice IMO.

(17:41:12) ***johnthng frm sg:)

(17:41:24) MarioB: starfall87: +1

(17:41:29) starfall87: Plus, there is also a certain appeal and familiarity with OO.o even with Windows Users using OO.o

(17:41:42) ziroday: also would we be going with Go-OOo or regular OOo?

(17:41:47) johnthng: is there a faster oo?

(17:41:57) johnthng: go-ooo faster?

(17:41:58) ziroday: (note ubuntu uses Go-OOo)

(17:41:59) hyperair: what's the difference?

(17:42:04) hyperair: what's go-OOo?

(17:42:07) elfgoh: I think most distros use Go-OOo

(17:42:12) hyperair: O_o

(17:42:17) ziroday: hyperair: http://www.go-oo.org/

(17:42:22) starfall87: Go-ooo is just a few extra patches against OO.o by novel at the moment it seems?

(17:42:22) pcman: go-ooo?

(17:42:33) elfgoh: Think Go-OOo has additional patches on top of OOo

(17:42:36) ziroday: hyperair: mainly a bunch of patches to OOo that improve various parts

(17:42:43) pastund: to 2. Why does lubuntu only offer the main GUI platform and ask the user what kind of applications profile does he need. If the user (my mother) only use Firefox/internet-browser a "background service" like Evolution is not needed.

(17:43:04) ziroday: http://www.go-oo.org/ (if you haven't found it already)

(17:43:09) mounier hat den Raum verlassen ("....ecco, ora sono proprio uscito.").

(17:43:59) hyperair: ziroday: thanks.

(17:44:00) pcman: if the installer can include options for the user to choose what to install, it's quite nice.

(17:44:01) starfall87: But in conclusion, I think we would use whatever version of OO.o is in the repository at the time

(17:44:06) ziroday: also http://www.oooninja.com/2009/03/multiplatform-benchmark-30.html might be insightful

(17:44:23) payne: ziroday: that should be light

(17:44:43) MarioB: ok, seems like everyone is already progressing to point 3

(17:44:56) starfall87: I agree

(17:45:37) pcman: ok

(17:45:41) MarioB: to sum up: we got a general idea and can discuss on the detailed goals as we go on, but overall lightweightness is very important as well as functionality

(17:45:53) MarioB: 3. Defining Applications

(17:46:11) MarioB: I suggest we discuss in the order of the wiki page

(17:46:22) AndrewLee: go-oo is faster

(17:46:50) starfall87: MarioB: A bit offtopic, but do you have someone who is saving a log of this conversation (I unfortunately do not know how to go about that, but thought it may be useful).

(17:46:58) pcman: agree, in the order of wiki.

(17:47:14) hyperair: ubuntu doesn't have a vanilla OO.o right?

(17:47:21) hyperair: so let's just use go-oo already

(17:47:25) MarioB: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Applications

(17:47:36) hyperair: starfall87: i've got logs which i can chop up for you if you wish

(17:47:37) ziroday: hyperair: ubuntu uses Go-oo, with the sun logo upon startup at the request of sun.

(17:47:55) MarioB: starfall87: i am also savin the logs and will publish them in the wiki

(17:47:57) johnthng: brb, i'm going down the mrt

(17:48:06) MarioB: johnthng: Smile :-)

(17:48:17) hyperair: ziroday: ah. well that means that the openoffice.org package in the ubuntu repository = go-oo. i think that packaging the vanilla on top of that is unaccceptable, so let's just use go-oo (i don't see any advantages using the vanilla anyway)

(17:48:34) starfall87: Perfect! Let's start going through the list in order then, lets start with LXDE Components?

(17:48:42) pcman: ok

(17:49:04) pcman: several important points:

(17:49:04) MarioB: so the following order: a) LXDE Components b) Applications and System Tools c) Games d) Graphics e) Multimedia f) Internet g) Office h) Accessories

(17:49:14) starfall87: Of these, I think most make sense, but I have a couple questions

(17:49:28) starfall87: like Do we need LXLauncher installed by default?

(17:49:30) MarioB: starfall87: please go on

(17:49:39) pcman: some reports on current status of the componenets:

(17:49:41) pcman: 1. pcmanfm is now under a process of a complete re-write.

(17:50:04) pcman: maybe the re-write will be finished before 2010, but no idea if it will be finished before lubuntu release.

(17:50:21) pcman: 2. lxlauncher is not finished yet. The background image support is missing.

(17:50:29) pcman: and it's being rework in a svn branch.

(17:50:40) MarioB: starfall87: I think we should include LXlauncher, but we can decide if it is switched on or switched off by default

(17:50:43) pcman: 3. lxpanel is working in a good status.

(17:50:57) pcman: 4. lxsession works.

(17:51:14) pcman: but integration with gdm is broken since gdm changed its ipc mechanism.

(17:51:21) pcman: 5. lxsession-edit works.

(17:51:26) pcman: 6. lxappearance works.

(17:51:34) pcman: 7. leafpad is not written by us but it works.

(17:51:43) pcman: need to check it's printing support.

(17:52:01) pcman: 8. xarchiver has a new release 0.5, but I found it a little bit buggy.

(17:52:13) pcman: suggest: replace it with file-roller.

(17:52:24) pcman: 9. gpicview 0.2 works nicely.

(17:52:32) elfgoh: pcman: agree with bugginess of xarchiver... how about peazip?

(17:52:37) pcman: 10. lxterminal, not sure.

(17:52:48) pcman: peazip is not packaged for ubuntu, IIRC.

(17:52:49) starfall87: I can report that lxterminal seems to be working well

(17:52:54) ziroday: lxnm?

(17:53:02) pcman: starfall87: personally I Prefer roxterm.

(17:53:09) pcman: wait

(17:53:22) pcman: 11 lxtask is working, but has some problems.

(17:53:25) hyperair: anything not packaged for ubuntu can be arranged to be packaged =p

(17:53:31) pcman: plus it's not in ubuntu.

(17:53:48) pcman: openbox works, but startup notification doesn't work in ubuntu and debian.

(17:53:51) pcman: it works in arch and fedora.

(17:53:55) pcman: seem to be a debian/ubuntu bug.

(17:54:00) hyperair: hmm

(17:54:03) McLovin926: i have had major issueswith lxnm, i don't know about anyone else though

(17:54:07) pcman: reported to package maintainers already. not fixed.

(17:54:16) pcman: let me finish the report first.

(17:54:21) starfall87: yes let him finish

(17:54:29) pcman: 12. lxrandr, not fully working.

(17:54:51) pcman: 13: lxshortcut, working, but there are some design flaws and limited its usage.

(17:54:59) pcman: so it's not very useful now.

(17:55:06) payne: lxnm will not be included, we will include wicd instead, rite

(17:55:06) pcman: 14. lxmusic: not working in ubuntu.

(17:55:15) pcman: 15. lxnm, totally broken.

(17:55:33) pcman: 16, gtknetcat, not compatible with debian/ubuntu, should be fixed or dropped.

(17:55:40) starfall87: Payne: this will be discussed later, follow order please

(17:55:41) pcman: 17. menu-cache, working well.

(17:56:02) pcman: 18, lxde-common, working, but the icon theme in it has older icon naming.

(17:56:05) pcman: fixes needed.

(17:56:09) payne: starfall87: ok, sorry

(17:56:11) pcman: EOF.

(17:56:12) starfall87: Ok, I thought of a major issue that will require some work

(17:56:21) starfall87: concerning LXsession

(17:56:32) pcman: preceding are the current status of all components.

(17:56:56) pastund: I think is very difficult to follow lightweightness in the one hand but try to fullfil every user wish with a standby-desktop (Sorry for my bad english). It would save resources if the desktop knows the users working profile.

(17:57:36) pcman: pastund: import gnome settings? or what do you mean?

(17:57:58) starfall87: Most packages that store stuff in /etc/xdg/autostart do not have their desktop files written with LXDE in mind (containing likes like OnlyShowIn: GNOME;XFCE;) we would have to coordinate with the maintainers of those packages to get LXDE; added to them

(17:57:58) McLovin926: that is something that would take having a profile of almost all hardware out, and what wprks best with it, almost an impossible task

(17:58:50) pastund: pcman, I thought about background-applications

(17:58:55) pcman: starfall87: yes, that's need to be fixed.

(17:59:14) pcman: pastund: ubuntu by default starts too many unused services.

(17:59:24) pastund: pcman, yes I agree!

(17:59:41) pcman: and this is also what slow down xubuntu.

(17:59:47) johnthng: yes

(17:59:49) pcman: otherwise xfce4 should be quite fast.

(18:00:11) johnthng: i can't run xubuntu well last time on 256mb, or 128mb ram

(18:00:38) pcman: so, maybe we should discuss what services to run.

(18:00:47) payne: +1

(18:01:08) hyperair: what unused services are we talking about exactly?

(18:01:19) pastund: pcman, So I think vage about a "profile-center" where the user can set his profile what kind of user he is.

(18:01:22) McLovin926: well, if we use GDM, that will be running in the background, just like gnome and xfce

(18:01:28) pcman: hyperair: some printer-related ones.

(18:01:33) MarioB: pcman: what do you suggest in regards to the components? You said some should be fixed or dropped? What needs to be done to have an acceptable first version of lubuntu?

(18:01:38) ***AndrewLee added mass bug filing for files under /etc/xdg/autostart contant 'OnlyShowIn: GNOME;XFCE;'

(18:01:48) hyperair: pcman: cupsd? if you don't have that how will you print?

(18:01:50) ***AndrewLee to his ToDo list

(18:01:55) starfall87: AndrewLee: Thanks Big Grin :)

(18:02:08) pcman: MarioB: only include those really works. that means: drop lxnm and gtknetcat.

(18:02:22) pcman: hyperair: how many users really print under linux?

(18:02:25) starfall87: I agree there

(18:02:41) hyperair: pcman: err are you telling me that all users go use windows to print insteada?

(18:02:42) McLovin926: pcman, i do

(18:02:43) hyperair: -a

(18:02:53) pcman: hyperair: ok, cupsd might be needed, but my last install of ubuntu have hp-specific printing service running.

(18:03:05) hyperair: pcman: my current install of ubutnu doesn't have it =\

(18:03:10) elfgoh: pcman: i print in Linux too

(18:03:14) AndrewLee: pcman: I'd think network-manager works better than wicd

(18:03:30) starfall87: Well ubuntu trys to install everything and the kitchen sink to make it easier for new people

(18:03:44) pcman: ok, I listed what's running on my current desktop.

(18:03:47) MarioB: printing is a basic service, we need to cover

(18:03:50) hyperair: i'm curious.. does wicd support network profiles that outlive your desktop session?

(18:03:52) starfall87: I 100% agree with AndrewLee on that one

(18:03:53) pcman: gnome-settings-daemon.

(18:03:59) pcman: gnome-power-manager

(18:04:15) pcman: some unknown printing daemon? not cupsd?

(18:04:23) elfgoh: well we could always include BUM to let the user decide whether to start the services they need?

(18:04:23) pcman: evolution alarm notifier.

(18:04:24) McLovin926: NM, I belive is a little heavier than wicd, with many more deps

(18:04:26) pcman: update-notifier

(18:04:29) pcman: network-manager

(18:04:31) hyperair: gnome-power-manager isn't an unused service, and nor is gnome-settings-daemon.

(18:04:42) pcman: check for new hw drivers...

(18:04:48) payne: wicd are lighter than network-manager

(18:04:48) pcman: gnome keyring

(18:04:52) pcman: bluetooth

(18:04:56) ***hyperair facepalms

(18:04:59) pcman: seahorse daemon

(18:05:02) hyperair: all those are *GNOME* stuff for the love of god.

(18:05:10) hyperair: i thought you said they slow down XFCE!

(18:05:14) pcman: and more....

(18:05:34) pcman: not all of them. There are also other services.

(18:05:35) hyperair: update-notifier isn't useless either.

(18:05:46) pcman: hyperair: but it's heavy.

(18:05:51) hyperair: is it?

(18:05:54) pcman: hyperair: and do we really need a daemon for it?

(18:05:55) hyperair: i've never raelly poked it

(18:06:05) pcman: cron can do this.

(18:06:11) johnthng: ya

(18:06:11) hyperair: wait a sec

(18:06:20) McLovin926: we do need update notifier, to follow the Ubuntu update scheme

(18:06:21) pcman: you only need to check for update sometimes, not having it running all the time.

(18:06:29) hyperair: pcman: update-notifier takes only 8KB of memory.

(18:06:31) starfall87: pcman: I agree that a shell script can now replace update-notifier with its current behavior

(18:06:39) pcman: hyperair: it runs python...

(18:06:39) hyperair: do you seriously mean to say that 8KB is bloody heavy?

(18:06:55) pcman: hyperair: it runs with python + python deps....

(18:06:56) starfall87: that 8kb is just a wrapper to python IIRC

(18:07:08) pcman: hyperair: the 8k is used by its' wrapper script.

(18:07:18) starfall87: but look at what python can use

<nowiki>(18:07:20) GunbladeIV- [n=gunb0x@ubuntu/member/gunbladeiv] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(18:07:21) hyperair: pcman: sorry, i was referring to how much memory it takes while it was running

(18:07:25) pcman: hyperair: that's what happen with wicd, too.

(18:07:25) hyperair: pcman: were you talking about disk space?

(18:07:33) pcman: hyperair: more than 10 mb.

(18:07:38) pcman: hyperair: no, RAM.

(18:07:39) starfall87: he is refering to the fact that it spawns the python process

(18:07:43) hyperair: oh looks like you were =.=

(18:07:46) McLovin926: I dont think Ubuntu will let this be an official 'buntu, without some sort of gui update tool

(18:07:50) AndrewLee: wicd works slower than network-manager on my netbook

(18:07:55) hyperair: starfall87: 8K is the amount of memory the python process which runs the update-notifier script is using.

(18:08:05) pcman: McLovin926: you can have GUI update tool, but do we really need it running all the time?

(18:08:06) AndrewLee: and hangs up sometime

(18:08:14) pcman: periodic check with cron is quite good.

(18:08:22) hyperair: can cron launch an X process?

(18:08:25) hyperair: i seriously doubt it

(18:08:28) MarioB: McLovin926: we dont have to reach all goals at the first step. I think we can have more support, when people see, we are actually getting things doen

(18:08:30) MarioB: done

(18:08:39) McLovin926: pcman, i agree with that

(18:08:41) pcman: hyperair: yes, if properly configured.

(18:08:56) hyperair: DISPLAY=:0.0 run-some-update-program?

(18:09:11) pcman: hyperair: you only need GUI when there are updates.

(18:09:22) pcman: right?

(18:09:24) hyperair: yes

(18:09:30) hyperair: that's true

(18:09:33) pcman: you should only run the GUI when updates are available.

(18:09:37) hyperair: but update-notifier's *only* gui is a tray

(18:09:38) pcman: not having a daemon for it.

(18:09:39) hyperair: icon

(18:09:45) starfall87: I think that you could use the cron script to run apt-get update and check to see if there are upgrades, if so it loads up update-manager

(18:09:48) pcman: hyperair: that try icon use much resource.

(18:10:00) hyperair: right, because you only have 8K of RAM?

(18:10:01) pcman: starfall87: yes. that's what I mean.

(18:10:10) starfall87: which would replicate the current behavior of update notifier

(18:10:13) pcman: hyperair: it uses many MBs.

(18:10:34) hyperair: lemme check again

(18:10:36) pcman: hyperair: that tray icon loads the whole python + pygtk + gtk+, and more....

(18:10:39) starfall87: hyperair, what you are measureing is just the script that invokes python

(18:10:54) pcman: hyperair: and the resources used in X server is not even counted.

(18:10:56) hyperair: starfall87: *cough* ps -C update-notifier -o rsz

(18:11:02) pcman: hyperair: it's not 8K, but more than 8 MB.

(18:11:12) pastund: But a update-notifier is only needed if a internet-connection exist.

(18:11:28) pcman: pastund: yes, and it's only needed when there are really updates.

(18:11:35) pastund: I am sorry.

(18:11:55) hyperair: hmm gnome-system-monitor says 1.7M

(18:11:55) pcman: so, I don't think it's needed to have it running all the time.

(18:11:56) johnthng: no, we just notify the users if it wants to check for updates periodically

(18:12:08) pcman: johnthng: ok

(18:12:09) johnthng: user will execute the process

(18:12:31) johnthng: so no need to cron the whole apt-get process

(18:12:33) pcman: well, technical detail doesn't seem to be the topic today.

(18:12:38) McLovin926: ok, so for the 1st testing ISO, I will not include any "default" update tool, if someone can work on writing the cron script

(18:12:41) MarioB: agree

(18:12:45) ***hyperair wonders if there's a confusion between update-notifier and update-manager.

(18:12:56) MarioB: lets finish with topic one: LXDE components

(18:13:01) MarioB: I conclude

(18:13:02) starfall87: agreed

(18:13:08) pcman: ok, if there is no replacement, just leave the original ubuntu tools.

(18:13:10) McLovin926: i agree

(18:13:12) pcman: ok

(18:13:14) MarioB: we include all LXDE components except LXNM and gtknetcat, right?

(18:13:15) payne: ok

(18:13:17) pcman: don't be off topic now.

(18:13:18) starfall87: well

(18:13:21) hyperair: ok

(18:13:21) pcman: agree

(18:13:23) starfall87: I think there is one note to that

(18:13:25) MarioB: how about xarchiver?

(18:13:33) hyperair: i thought someone said it was buggy

(18:13:35) starfall87: if we chose some other music program, it instead of LXMusic

(18:13:38) pcman: suggest: replace it with file-roller.

(18:13:39) McLovin926: someone said replace with fileroller?

(18:13:43) McLovin926: ok

(18:14:03) pcman: some gnome deps is inevitable since many important apps need them.

<nowiki>(18:14:08) Fred_ [n=fred@61-224-54-122.dynamic.hinet.net] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(18:14:19) pcman: if we're not going to install the whole gnome, several gnome libs won't hurt.

(18:14:27) pcman: so, file-roller should be ok.

(18:14:28) McLovin926: LXDE itself seems to use a number gnome deps by default

(18:14:35) Fred_ heißt jetzt Guest86711

(18:14:37) starfall87: I agree with pcman on that one, it is practically impossible to avoid gnome deps

(18:14:38) pcman: McLovin926: not at all.

(18:14:44) elfgoh: I am suggesting peazip instead of file-roller

(18:14:48) MarioB: pcman: file-roler noted

(18:14:51) pcman: elfgoh: any deb?

(18:14:52) Guest86711 heißt jetzt Fred_

(18:15:00) pcman: I'd like to try it.

(18:15:13) elfgoh: pcman: not sure i tried it in windows :p

(18:15:13) starfall87: we could also condider using squeeze for archiving

(18:15:15) ***pcman tried pea-zip on windows, but the UI is a little bit weird.

(18:15:28) pcman: starfall87: but it looks too simple.

(18:15:42) McLovin926: no pea-zip in repos

(18:15:45) elfgoh: pcman: i think there is a deb

(18:15:46) starfall87: pcman: it is not to bad, but I agree

(18:15:49) elfgoh: http://peazip.sourceforge.net/

(18:15:58) johnthng: ya, pea-zip is a prettier 7-zip

<nowiki>(18:16:11) maces [n=maces@pD9FFE8C6.dip.t-dialin.net] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(18:16:15) starfall87: I think file-roller might be the best choice

(18:16:16) maces: hi @all

(18:16:17) pcman: 7-zip has good algorithm and bad UI on Windows.

(18:16:20) AndrewLee: elfgoh: please make it as an official package.

(18:16:21) hyperair: elfgoh: is it really lighter than file-roller?

(18:16:30) pastund: By the way. on my LXDE system update-apt-xapi blocks my system if I start synaptic. My hard-drive is to slow for synaptic and update-apt-xapi at the same time.

(18:16:36) pcman: hyperair: I don't think so since it requires pascal runtime.

(18:16:49) hyperair: ...pascal?!

(18:16:58) pcman: hyperair: it's written in pascal.

(18:17:08) pcman: with a GUI IDE for it.

(18:17:12) ***hyperair goes out and vomits by the roadside

(18:17:41) McLovin926: ok, so file-roller?

(18:17:42) royal hat den Raum verlassen (quit: "Saliendo").

(18:17:42) pcman: so' some UI components are not standard ones.

(18:17:51) pcman: let me try peazip on ubuntu first. lol

<nowiki>(18:18:02) cwickert [n=chris@fedora/cwickert] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(18:18:15) elfgoh: oops hmm maybe it wasn't peazip i was using then hmm

(18:18:22) pcman: anyone wants to try it? there is a deb.

(18:18:23) hyperair: ._.

(18:18:28) McLovin926: i am trying it now

(18:18:37) AndrewLee: Add peazip into todo list and then continue

<nowiki>(18:18:38) aluddin [n=aluddin@80.30.103.112] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(18:18:39) payne: me too

(18:18:42) payne: downloading

(18:18:46) aluddin: hi

<nowiki>(18:18:51) davidng [n=david@77.70.137.35] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(18:18:58) pcman: hi, aluddin, davidng

(18:19:36) pcman: OK, byebey peazip.

(18:19:43) McLovin926: pea-zip has no drag and drop extract, file-roller does

(18:19:47) aluddin: we talk?

(18:19:53) pcman: the UI looks a little bit weird and there are a lot of warnings in the console.

(18:20:03) hyperair: heh scary =\

(18:20:07) starfall87: I think this is a good moment to discuss a problem we may be faced with in the future. Pidgin is a good example of a problem-program where debian applied a patch to fix a focus problem in Gnome that causes a focus problem in Openbox (where clicking the tray icon would not give the buddy-list focus). I am wondering what approach we should take to such a problem?

(18:20:07) McLovin926: i saw that as well

<nowiki>(18:20:09) The_Toxic_Mite [n=quassel@host86-165-93-1.range86-165.btcentralplus.com] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(18:20:28) hyperair: empathy?

(18:20:36) hyperair: i think it's more lightweight than pidgin, but i might be mistaken

(18:20:53) pcman: starfall87: can we discuss the apps one by one?

(18:21:19) MarioB: for everyone joining later, I have pasted the beginning of the chat today to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC%20Meetings

(18:21:23) pcman: choose an archiver?

(18:21:39) McLovin926: i am still thinking file-roller

(18:21:43) maces: archiver: xarchiver ...

(18:21:52) starfall87: I felt the conversation concerning file-roller was dieing down and thought we should take this concern up at the moment.

(18:22:04) McLovin926: the interface, and no drag and drop extract, and terminal warning of pea-zip, just turn me off

(18:22:05) pcman: file-roller + 1

(18:22:08) aluddin: ami pisgin I think it is fine and runs on all computers

(18:22:09) MarioB: pcman: we can chose file-roller and reconsider later again if necessary

(18:22:09) starfall87: +1

(18:22:14) MarioB: +1

(18:22:23) pcman: ok

(18:22:24) payne: +1

(18:22:28) pcman: then we can continue.

(18:22:44) pcman: things should be done in order. otherwise some issues will be omitted.

(18:22:48) MarioB: next topic

(18:22:51) MarioB: b) Applications and System Tools

(18:22:57) pcman: and we cannot remember what was already discussed.

(18:23:03) MarioB: pcman: agree

(18:23:10) McLovin926: i am keeping a list of apps we agree upon now

(18:23:23) pcman: thx

(18:23:36) starfall87: the contested topic here seems to be the login manager, I am personally a fan of GDM

(18:23:45) maces hat den Raum verlassen (quit: "bye everyone").

(18:23:47) pcman: gdm + 1

<nowiki>(18:23:53) maces [n=maces@pD9FFE8C6.dip.t-dialin.net] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(18:23:56) McLovin926: GDM is esier to use for new comers

(18:24:02) McLovin926: easier*

(18:24:13) payne: +1

(18:24:15) pcman: I have difficulties configuring slim.

(18:24:22) davidng: sorry if i'm dragging the discussion back, but

(18:24:37) McLovin926: slim is very difficult to configure, of you dont know how read it

(18:24:43) starfall87: Plus, I am not sure there is a reliable way to redistribute SLiM since it seems to use .xinitrc for its sessions

(18:24:46) davidng: please what is the relationship of lubuutu and xbuntu

(18:24:58) McLovin926: none

(18:25:02) pcman: davidng: independent projects.

(18:25:27) davidng: ok, but the xbuntu is supposed to be lightweight also

(18:25:38) davidng: and what is d difference now

(18:25:39) davidng: ?

(18:25:51) McLovin926: yes, but lubuntu will be more so

(18:25:59) davidng: i mean between xbuntu and lubntu?

(18:26:03) McLovin926: lubuntu will fall between xubuntu and fluxbuntu

(18:26:07) starfall87: davidng: xubuntu is based on Xfce, but lubuntu is based on LXDE and will be more lightweight

(18:26:22) MarioB: *** for newcomers, we are talking about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Applications - Applications and System Tools

(18:26:36) davidng: ok, much more lighwieight than xbuntu?

(18:26:50) johnthng: yup

(18:27:07) MarioB: davidng: please read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu

(18:27:10) johnthng: but again some app might not be lightweight

(18:27:13) davidng: ok, it is good to have many spawns

(18:27:16) pcman: davidng: it uses another desktop environment. So whether it's lighter or not, they are different flavor.

(18:27:19) johnthng: cos we need to look into usability

(18:27:28) davidng: yeah, that is where the focus need to be right

(18:27:33) hyperair: gdm +1

(18:27:50) MarioB: davidng: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop

(18:27:51) starfall87: It seems we have no dispute of gdm then?

(18:27:57) elfgoh: gdm +1 for usability

(18:27:59) pcman: since slim is hard to configure, and nobody seems to use kdm, we use gdm, ok?

(18:28:08) McLovin926: +1

(18:28:09) MarioB: agree gdm

(18:28:09) payne: agree

(18:28:10) starfall87: +1

(18:28:13) maces: +1

(18:28:13) johnthng: +1

(18:28:14) pcman: or someone want to use entrance

(18:28:16) AndrewLee: gdm +1

(18:28:20) davidng: yeah i'm comfortable with gdm

(18:28:22) McLovin926: next?

(18:28:23) aluddin: +1

(18:28:28) pcman: ok, next

(18:28:43) starfall87: Do we want to include Conky, I personally think it should be omited

(18:28:44) pcman: do we need conky?

<nowiki>(18:28:46) moofang [n=lim@124.13.139.48] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(18:28:49) pcman: agree

(18:28:53) pcman: it's a geek tool.

(18:28:58) starfall87: agreed

(18:28:59) McLovin926: ok

(18:29:03) hyperair: agreed

(18:29:11) McLovin926: next

(18:29:13) payne: agreed

(18:29:14) hyperair: most people don't care about their system's stats

(18:29:21) starfall87: ok it seems the largest thing now is Networking

(18:29:22) MarioB: how about the other application? System monitor?

(18:29:25) aluddin: ami I like Conky

(18:29:28) maces: +1

(18:29:29) moofang hat den Raum verlassen ("Konversation terminated!").

(18:29:46) McLovin926: aluddin, if someone uses conky, they know how to isntall it

(18:29:48) aluddin: but if I wanted to propose tint2

(18:29:50) starfall87: System monitor might be unavoidable

(18:29:53) davidng: can we make our work easier by considering usability and lightweight on application by application basis?

(18:30:02) johnthng: Conky is good, but too geek, and waste resources in polling

(18:30:19) starfall87: johnthng view +1

(18:30:25) pcman: agree

(18:30:28) payne: agree

(18:30:47) McLovin926: ok, so no conky

(18:30:49) maces: agree

(18:30:50) davidng: i havent used conky b4

(18:31:00) AndrewLee: conky -1

(18:31:01) davidng: so i cant vote on it

(18:31:03) starfall87: is there some alternative to system monitor, I suppose LXTask might be possible?

(18:31:09) McLovin926: what about a medi player?

(18:31:11) aluddin: Conky is good, but too geek, and waste resources in polling

(18:31:15) pcman: McLovin926: later

(18:31:17) payne: one by one

(18:31:20) aluddin: +1

(18:31:29) pcman: starfall87: lxtask is not very good.

(18:31:34) elfgoh: neither have i.. though i have used the system monitor on windows.... so i take it we do not wantt a system monitor?

<nowiki>(18:31:39) dqminh [n=dqminh@cm219.sigma224.maxonline.com.sg] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(18:31:41) pcman: starfall87: either someone need to fix it, or we need another one.

(18:31:56) pcman: but, do we really need it?

(18:32:02) davidng: no we definitely need a system monitor

(18:32:03) pcman: for general users?

(18:32:03) maces: +1

(18:32:09) starfall87: pcman: hmm, I thought you had mentioned about some work going on in SVN, but anywho System Monitor is good with me

(18:32:22) johnthng: GKrellM?

(18:32:26) pcman: starfall87: my point is, who will need system monitor?

(18:32:29) johnthng: a bit less geek

(18:32:31) aluddin: I give my vote

(18:32:37) maces: i'd like to have an system monitor

(18:32:43) MarioB: pcman: lxtask works overall and we might get people to help with development, if we can include it

(18:32:44) pcman: for those who don't even know what's cpu or RAM, what are sys monitors for?

(18:32:49) starfall87: pcman: Sometimes I use it to kill a stray process if i do not know what the process is though

(18:32:58) maces: +1

(18:33:01) pastund: my mother never asked for a system monitor but turned off the computer if a application does not react.

(18:33:02) pcman: for those who need a system monitor, I think they know how to install one.

(18:33:18) elfgoh: but what about new users coming from windows?

(18:33:20) pcman: starfall87: the window manager can do it.

(18:33:24) McLovin926: I dont think we need a system monitor, but we do need some kind of system monitor like the gnomne system monitor, that has to be opened manually to shut down apps that get out of control

(18:33:41) maces: +1

(18:33:44) MarioB: McLovin926: i think so

(18:33:47) elfgoh: McLovin926: yea that's the type of system monitor i am referring too

(18:33:54) johnthng: i never use monitors on windows

(18:33:55) pcman: openbox can close the apps when they crash.

(18:34:12) pcman: for GUI apps, openbox can close the crashed ones.

(18:34:14) maces: but it's slow

(18:34:20) pcman: for console apps, ctrl+C in console.

(18:34:30) johnthng: i see

(18:34:33) maces: deamons

(18:34:34) maces: ?

(18:34:35) McLovin926: nbot when they crash, but like when something that is no visible is running in the back ground and slowing down the system, and has to be close the hard way

(18:34:41) pcman: maces: openbox detects dead GUI apps, and ask you whether you want to close it.

(18:34:58) pcman: McLovin926: then you should use the system command 'kill

(18:35:01) pcman: or killall

(18:35:08) McLovin926: but will a new comer know that?

(18:35:11) maces: pcman: i know but i'm faster with htop than openbox reconizes that a gui is chrashed ..

(18:35:14) pcman: what kind of user will be curious about what's running in background?

(18:35:26) pcman: not general users.

(18:35:27) maces: I

(18:35:44) pcman: only geeks will want to see what's running all the time.

(18:35:47) McLovin926: someone who is very knowledgeable on windows, but not linux

(18:36:26) pcman: but it won't break anything if a system monitor is added.

(18:36:35) johnthng: Ya, lubuntu is designed more to the non-geek, geek pls customise yourself

(18:36:40) pcman: so, if there is a good one, I agree adding a sys monitor.

(18:36:47) maces: htop Big Grin :)

(18:36:50) MarioB: pcman: it does not use a lot of resources in fact

(18:36:58) pcman: MarioB: true.

(18:36:59) McLovin926: what about gnome system monitor?

(18:37:05) pcman: McLovin926: very slow

(18:37:19) maces: and have gnome deps

(18:37:22) pastund: I think 'top' is an alternative. Does Windows XP Home has a system monitor?

(18:37:28) pcman: McLovin926: and if you look in the apps it listed, gnome-system-monitor itself is one of the leading memory eaters.

(18:37:30) johnthng: I am wondering about Xfce Task Manager

(18:37:30) McLovin926: task manager

(18:37:36) davidng: well... it is important to consider the system support end of this matter

(18:37:42) MarioB: i suggest with stick with lxtask. it seems all right for me.

(18:37:45) starfall87: johnthing: it is not that useful I think

(18:37:52) pastund: oh. sorry

(18:37:55) McLovin926: 2.8 megs, you are right

(18:37:57) pcman: lxtask is based on xfce4 task manager.

(18:38:01) maces: top is good

(18:38:04) davidng: and not just the end users who expect someone to solve problems for them

(18:38:15) McLovin926: lxtask is included, so taht should work fine

(18:38:19) davidng: when something is amiss on their systems

(18:38:22) johnthng: ya

(18:38:37) starfall87: but as pcman mentioned, lxtask has some issues at the moment and needs a lot of work

(18:38:47) johnthng: top is good, but dun make it too console for lubuntu

(18:38:52) pcman: starfall87: I suspect that xfce4 one has the issues, too.

(18:38:59) McLovin926: then what about xftaskmanager?

(18:39:03) pcman: johnthng: xterm -e top?

(18:39:10) McLovin926: oh

(18:39:15) pcman: McLovin926: lxtask = xftask - xfce libs.

(18:39:22) pcman: + ui adjustment.

(18:39:27) starfall87: pcman: I am using the xfce4 one in arch/xfce and do not have any major problems like the insane cpu usage of lxtask

(18:39:44) johnthng: pcman: not a bad idea

(18:39:49) pcman: starfall87: so, lxtask must be fixed, or include xfce one.

(18:39:50) maces: top +1 ..the geeks who needs a system monitor will like it .. the others don't open it Wink ;)

(18:39:51) johnthng: quite cool

(18:40:17) starfall87: the xfce4 one, at least from 4.6.1 xfce is not that bad

(18:40:31) pcman: use xfce4 one if lxtask is not fixed in time, ok?

(18:40:36) starfall87: but lxtask did offer some improvement on it

(18:40:57) pcman: starfall87: or some damage? lol

(18:40:58) McLovin926: so for the testing SIO, I will iclude the lxtask for now?

(18:41:01) McLovin926: ISO*

(18:41:13) pcman: McLovin926: maybe xfce4taskmanager?

(18:41:19) starfall87: pcman: maybe lxtask was based on an older version that still had some bug in it, but was fixed

(18:41:22) davidng: since xfce is being supported quite well elsewhere i would vote for tit

(18:41:27) McLovin926: ok, I can do that as well

(18:41:33) pcman: starfall87: this needs to be checked.

(18:41:42) davidng: so we don't dissipate energy reinventing d wheels

(18:41:52) starfall87: pcman: I will try to dig around the bug lists of xfce,

(18:42:07) pcman: davidng: but xfce4taskmanager depends on several xfce4 libs.

(18:42:27) pcman: actually only two lines of code in it really need those libs.

(18:42:30) pcman: quite interasting.

(18:42:35) davidng: and that will make it not lightweight?

(18:42:42) davidng: again?

(18:42:49) pcman: davidng: no, but you'll need to install several xfce libs.

(18:43:03) pcman: davidng: just because two lines of code in it need them.

(18:43:09) McLovin926: but for the 1st testing ISO, it will do

(18:43:14) cwickert hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Connection timed out).

(18:43:15) pcman: I don't feel very comfortable on this. lol

(18:43:24) AndrewLee: me too

(18:43:31) payne: yeah me too

(18:43:37) pcman: it only uses xfce4 libs to save config files.

(18:43:37) maces: +1

(18:43:42) davidng: ok, what alternative do we have?

(18:43:46) McLovin926: I can use either, lxtask, or xfce4taskman

(18:43:50) pcman: davidng: fixing lxtask.

(18:43:52) maces: xterm -e top

(18:43:59) McLovin926: lol

(18:44:05) pcman: maces: but you cannot kill a process with xterm -e top.

(18:44:14) AndrewLee: pcman: k

(18:44:15) davidng: can we assign some developer to fix whatever need fixing and we test and report back?

(18:44:18) pcman: xterm -e htop might be better?

(18:44:19) pcman: lol

<nowiki>(18:44:22) cwickert [n=chris@fedora/cwickert] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(18:44:37) pcman: davidng: that will be appreciated if someone is going to fix them.

(18:44:45) aluddin: I vote for xfce4taskman

(18:44:50) maces: pcman: sry i mean htop

(18:45:16) davidng: ok, so we put it out on a todo list on the web

(18:45:20) pcman: I vote for either xfce4taskman, fixing lxtask, or xterm -e htop.

(18:45:29) pastund: But if conky is not need why do we need a task-manager? The main difference is the option to kill a process, because the close button does not work for application with GUI.

(18:45:41) pcman: I vote for xterm -e htop

(18:45:45) maces: +1

(18:45:45) MarioB: davidng: http://wiki.lxde.org/en/ToDo

(18:45:46) davidng: ok, good

(18:45:48) pcman: just apt-get install htop and it's quite good.

(18:45:52) AndrewLee: just use lxtask for the first ISO. and it will be get fixed eventually

(18:45:53) aluddin: +1

(18:45:53) McLovin926: ok, we need to decide what to use for testing, lxtask, or xfce4taskmanager, i do eother, i think just for testing, lxtast is ok, and if the issues do not get resolved, we go to xfce4taskmanager

(18:45:59) davidng: we want what will work

(18:46:28) maces: +1

(18:46:36) MarioB: +1

(18:46:38) payne: +1

(18:46:43) johnthng: +1

(18:46:49) pcman: 1

(18:46:51) pcman: +1

(18:46:52) starfall87: +1

(18:46:53) elfgoh: ++

(18:46:58) davidng: and if something ok by me

(18:47:02) pcman: but xterm -e htop is really good, too. Smile :)

(18:47:03) starfall87: pcman: no luck so far on the bugreports

(18:47:07) davidng: ok by me

(18:47:10) McLovin926: bbias

(18:47:15) pcman: starfall87: xfce4taskman is ok for me.

(18:47:29) pcman: I won't insist using everything which are LX branded.

(18:47:53) MarioB: next one: Services

(18:48:02) pcman: something that best suited should be our choice.

(18:48:06) starfall87: pcman: do you happen to know where the two lines that require the xfce libs are, I might work on replaceing those, if I think I can

(18:48:15) MarioB: Samba, NFS-common - any comments?

(18:48:16) davidng: well d strength of open source is availability of choices

(18:48:25) pcman: starfall87: some config file saving parts.

(18:48:36) starfall87: pcman: ok I will dig around then

(18:48:44) pcman: the problem with samba is, we don't have a GUI config tool for it.

(18:49:08) starfall87: I agree with pcman on this one

(18:49:11) davidng: samba, fuse, etc is quite basic in linux now

(18:49:16) McLovin926: back

(18:49:31) pcman: davidng: fusesmb is not working correctly in many situations.

(18:49:33) McLovin926: i say we include both samba and nfs-common

(18:49:49) pcman: McLovin926: how big are those packages?

(18:50:04) payne: yup me too, I have to use pyneighborhood connect to other network, then use pcmanfm to browse the network

(18:50:09) McLovin926: samba is a basic inclusion in everything, and nfs-common, is not that big

(18:50:13) maces: i only would include them when pcmanfm supports them,

(18:50:14) davidng: for interoperability with ms windows and so we should include them

(18:50:17) AndrewLee: I don't think normal dekstop users would know how to config samba and nfs

(18:50:28) maces: +1

(18:50:35) pcman: maces: pcmanfm will support them in the future with gio/gvfs.

(18:50:46) maces: pcman: great Smile :)

(18:51:03) davidng: yeah, but remember most of the time

(18:51:07) pcman: people who know how to config samba with config files won't have difficulty installing them with apt-get, right?

(18:51:12) AndrewLee: so no samba and nfs-common for now. pcmanfm will support them in the furure release.

(18:51:18) davidng: someone configures the systems and hand over to end users

(18:51:20) AndrewLee: pcman: yes

(18:51:24) starfall87: I think that is the way to go

(18:51:25) pcman: AndrewLee: they are different things.

(18:51:33) davidng: who expects everything to work as configured

(18:51:48) pcman: AndrewLee: samba and fusesmb are different things.

(18:52:20) pcman: davidng: since samba won't work out of the box, it's not very useful to include it IMO.

(18:52:24) AndrewLee: pcman: samba is more server specfic daemon. fusesmb is for user

(18:52:28) pcman: you still have to configure them manually.

(18:52:32) pcman: AndrewLee: yes.

(18:52:40) The_Toxic_Mite hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).

(18:52:41) AndrewLee: pcman: nfs-common also

(18:52:53) davidng: yes, it is not important unless in a networked environment

(18:53:03) pcman: something that a user will expect when they enter the desktop should be included.

(18:53:24) pcman: but a network daemon, which requires manual configurations, is not necessarily be installed by default.

(18:53:36) davidng: so, we can leave it out for any super user to find ways to add

<nowiki>(18:53:45) icedwater [n=iced@cm214.theta9.maxonline.com.sg] hat den Raum betreten.</nowiki>

(18:53:45) pcman: that's my opinion.

(18:53:59) pcman: for me I only need ssh. lol

(18:54:04) maces: +1

(18:54:08) aluddin: +1

(18:54:12) starfall87: +1

(18:54:12) payne: +1

(18:54:16) johnthng: +1

(18:54:16) McLovin926: i use nfs-common to connect to my server

(18:54:28) McLovin926: but for testing, i can ad them myself

(18:54:33) maces: but not every user has a server Wink ;)

(18:54:39) johnthng: not everyone who use lubuntu connect to server

(18:54:43) davidng: +1

(18:54:45) johnthng: i mean majority dun

(18:54:51) pcman: samba only works if you have working network connection.

(18:54:53) starfall87: I use ssh for my server, am I in the darkage or something?

(18:55:11) elfgoh: i use samba in my office

(18:55:15) pcman: if you have network connections already, apt-get samba takes seconds.

(18:55:22) johnthng: ya

(18:55:26) starfall87: agreed

(18:55:31) payne: what about home networking?

(18:55:35) pcman: so, I don't think it's needed to be installed on every system.

(18:55:39) davidng: Starfall87: u're a geek

(18:55:50) starfall87: davidng: Big Grin :)

(18:55:52) pcman: payne: well, good point.

(18:56:09) pcman: but will you use Linux without internet connection?

(18:56:19) payne: no

(18:56:22) AndrewLee: pcman: somewhere does

(18:56:28) pcman: AndrewLee: and samba are used there?

(18:56:37) AndrewLee: pcman: no

(18:56:40) pcman: AndrewLee: or can we make this optional in the installer?

(18:56:54) davidng: samba, is only necessary if u're working in a network environment where MS windows is present

(18:57:00) pcman: anyway for the first release, I think samba can be included, or excluded.

(18:57:01) maces: on a local only network you can download the debs and install them manually Wink ;)

(18:57:08) McLovin926: i can write a script to install it and add a shortcut on the desktop for it

(18:57:13) pcman: ok

(18:57:23) pcman: then we can exclude samba.

(18:57:25) davidng: so we should consider d use cases

(18:57:55) pcman: so, don't install samba and nfs by default, agree?

(18:57:56) ***hyperair uses samba for networking between two linux machines

(18:58:00) McLovin926: +1

(18:58:08) johnthng: +1

(18:58:10) payne: +1

(18:58:16) starfall87: pcman +1

(18:58:17) davidng: so if u have samba installed and there's no Windows machine around it is useless

(18:58:25) aluddin: +1

(18:58:30) maces: +1

(18:58:47) pcman: ok, is there any one disagree installing obconf by default?

(18:58:57) pcman: without this, you have to write openbox config files.

(18:58:59) AndrewLee: okay. it's time to end this meeting. When is next meeting?

(18:59:01) McLovin926: we need it

(18:59:03) starfall87: install obconf by default +1

(18:59:16) pcman: ok, we are at networking section now.

(18:59:16) davidng: yes we install

(18:59:26) johnthng: +1 install

(18:59:31) pcman: anyone tried connman?

(18:59:34) McLovin926: AndrewLee, we still alot to discuss here

(18:59:42) payne: connman still buggy

(18:59:52) MarioB: i am getting lost slowly

(18:59:55) pcman: McLovin926: he means, we cannot finished all the discussion today.

(18:59:56) hyperair: nm

(18:59:58) AndrewLee: McLovin926: I don't expect that long

(19:00:06) starfall87: Yeah, connman is still buggy, but it would be the perfect solution once it is usable

(19:00:10) pcman: but I think we can decide a network manager today.

(19:00:21) AndrewLee: I'd suggest to put these on wiki and discuss in next meeting.

(19:00:32) elfgoh: Yes

(19:00:36) McLovin926: i still say wicd

(19:00:47) elfgoh: wicd ++

(19:00:48) pcman: can we finish the networking part today?

(19:00:51) pcman: or next meeting?

(19:01:10) AndrewLee: please put possible apps and then discuss in next meeting all together

(19:01:10) hyperair: someone mentioned that wicd is slower than nm. i haven't actually tried wicd.

(19:01:24) starfall87: I agree that wicd is slower than nm

(19:01:32) hyperair: either way wicd looks more like a geek tool to me

(19:01:33) AndrewLee: And people who want to attend next meeting should better play/test the possible apps

(19:01:34) johnthng: but is it lighter?

(19:01:35) aluddin: network manager +1

(19:01:35) pcman: faster than nm on my box.

(19:01:37) MarioB: pcman: i think we should take a decision and change at a later point if necessary

(19:01:40) pcman: but the UI is terrible.

(19:01:46) hyperair: it's got stuff like wext, etc in its ui

(19:01:49) pcman: MarioB: agree

(19:01:54) hyperair: yeah that's what i meant

(19:01:55) pcman: hyperair: totally agree.

(19:02:03) starfall87: network manager +1

(19:02:05) pcman: and wicd doesn't work with ADSL.

(19:02:13) pcman: pppoe

(19:02:19) elfgoh: hmmm

(19:02:23) pcman: but pppoe is widely used in Asia.

(19:02:25) hyperair: ah i think NM should be the default then.

(19:02:30) hyperair: it's very widely used.

(19:02:34) hyperair: but most people use routers nowadays

(19:02:42) elfgoh: well one thing about network manager.... i heard it can support broadband on 3G seamlessly

(19:02:44) davidng: what is wrong with pppoeconf?

(19:02:45) johnthng: yes

(19:02:53) hyperair: i personally have never dealt with pppoe on ubuntu before.

(19:02:53) pcman: then we need to fix OnlyShowIn=GNOME;XFCE;

(19:02:59) MarioB: Fred is also working on a new LXNM as a Freifunk/Google Summer of Code project. We might have a better choice after the summer.

(19:03:07) starfall87: I believe AndrewLee filed a mass bug for that

(19:03:08) johnthng: i'm using broadband on 3g

(19:03:17) pastund: I noticed that 'wireless lan' blocks the GUI if there is a problem.

(19:03:20) pcman: davidng: actually I'm using pppoeconf.

(19:03:37) ***elfgoh uses the shell :s

(19:03:44) davidng: i use that often also

(19:03:49) hyperair: pastund: for wicd or nm?

(19:03:53) AndrewLee: starfall87: I added that to my DebCamp work list.

(19:04:00) pcman: another problem with wicd is, it looks small, but it have the whole python running.

(19:04:14) starfall87: AndrewLee: ok, got ya

(19:04:24) davidng: and i guess it is as lightweight as we want

(19:04:26) elfgoh: wld network maanger be pulling in a lot of gnome deps?

(19:04:30) pcman: the memory usage won't be less than that of nm althought it looks lighter.

(19:04:35) MarioB: So, I would say Network Manager looks like the best option for the moment

(19:04:36) pastund: hyperair, I think it was nm, but please do not fix me on that. I used the console after that.

(19:04:37) payne: in asia pppoe are widely used, actually my pppoe connection are connected by the router not by my computer

(19:04:39) hyperair: python isn't exactly a behemoth you know?

(19:05:11) davidng: yeah, python is lightweight enough

(19:05:16) maces: +1

(19:05:19) pcman: yes

(19:05:29) hyperair: networkmanager then?

(19:05:30) pcman: but only use it when it's absolutely needed.

(19:05:43) pcman: python is fast, but the memory usage is higher.

(19:05:58) McLovin926: ok, so NM, or wicd?

(19:06:01) hyperair: deluge is pretty lightweight

(19:06:07) starfall87: I think network manager seems faster than wicd and packs more compatibility, and the network program is not somewhere to skimp in compatibility

(19:06:11) aluddin: nm +1

(19:06:14) ***hyperair brb to fetch sister

(19:06:15) McLovin926: deluge is a bittorrent client

(19:06:16) pcman: and you find there is no visible difference in speed of gtk and pygtk most of the time. but that's not because python is fast. that's beacause gtk is slow.

(19:06:19) payne: NM, in case user need to connect to pppoe +1

(19:06:26) MarioB: nm +1

(19:06:26) pcman: nm+1

(19:06:28) johnthng: +1

(19:06:30) starfall87: nm+1

(19:06:31) johnthng: nm

(19:06:37) MarioB: ok good

(19:06:57) ***AndrewLee leaves&

(19:07:00) pcman: then leave the rest to next meeting?

(19:07:05) starfall87: ok next official meeting?

(19:07:13) McLovin926: ok

(19:07:15) starfall87: TBD?

(19:07:30) MarioB: is this time like today generally fine for everyone?

(19:07:37) AndrewLee: 20 July?

(19:07:43) McLovin926: sure

(19:07:44) starfall87: yeah this time works

(19:07:50) davidng: sure

(19:07:55) pcman: I'm ok with this time.

(19:07:56) McLovin926: but sooner than july 20

(19:08:07) johnthng: ya

(19:08:11) pcman: but sometimes I'm on duty and are working in the hospital.

(19:08:14) MarioB: AndrewLee: did you mean 20 June?

(19:08:15) johnthng: there's much to discuss ya

(19:08:35) AndrewLee: MarioB: let pcman choose first.

(19:08:42) johnthng: now is june 20 1:08 am Smile :)

(19:08:45) davidng: tomorrow is 2oth june

(19:08:52) MarioB: AndrewLee: good idea

(19:08:52) davidng: yeah

(19:08:59) McLovin926: I am going to build a testing ISO with just some of the basic apps for now, and add a couple of things just to test, and I will host it on my web server

(19:08:59) johnthng: 20 hours later?

(19:09:04) ***AndrewLee &

(19:09:05) davidng: i'm 7hrs behind

(19:09:10) MarioB: pcman: is tomorrow ok or better later?

(19:09:19) pcman: MarioB: later

(19:09:31) pcman: I'm on duty for 24 hours tomorrow.

(19:09:43) AndrewLee: Better after the testing ISO built

(19:09:52) davidng: any announcement will be fine by me

(19:09:52) pcman: I mean, I'll have to go to work and stay in the hospital for 24 hours about 7 hours later.

(19:09:54) MarioB: pcman: please suggest a date

(19:10:20) pcman: 2009-06-21? (Taipei time)

(19:10:31) payne: taipei gmt +*

(19:10:34) MarioB: ok, sunday then

(19:10:37) pcman: or

(19:10:38) payne: gmt +8

(19:10:42) pcman: maybe one week later.

(19:10:56) aluddin: 21-06-2009

(19:10:58) pcman: and we can use this week to test all the apps on the wiki page?

(19:11:15) pastund: yeah

(19:11:15) aluddin: or 22-06-2009

(19:11:18) payne: sure its ok with me

(19:11:19) pcman: then the discussion will be more efficient?

(19:11:37) MarioB: pcman: i think we can take some more decisions for things we know already on 21. it is fine for me

(19:11:46) pcman: MarioB: ok

(19:11:50) MarioB: 21-06-2009 same time

(19:11:56) MarioB: i send out an email later

(19:11:58) McLovin926: i agree with pcman

(19:12:08) payne: agreed

(19:12:16) johnthng: k

(19:12:26) pcman: please try the apps if you have time.

(19:12:32) MarioB: Ok, thanks everyone for joining! It was a great pleasure!

(19:12:33) aluddin: ok

(19:12:33) elfgoh: ok

(19:12:37) McLovin926: take a week to test apps, then meet again

(19:12:40) MarioB: Good work!

(19:12:43) pcman: thank you all.

(19:12:45) elfgoh: Bed

(19:12:46) starfall87: It has been great!

(19:12:59) davidng: good

(19:13:01) GunbladeIV- hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Success).

(19:13:14) aluddin: ciao

(19:13:14) pcman: then who is building the iso now?

(19:13:19) pcman: the testing iso?

(19:13:36) McLovin926: me

(19:13:39) davidng: if i have iso, i'll test

(19:13:43) pcman: McLovin926: cool. how's the progress?

(19:13:59) McLovin926: I am going to start today, and hopefully have one tinight sometime

(19:14:01) aluddin: iso test +1

(19:14:19) pcman: McLovin926: maybe the iso can be finished first.

(19:14:26) pcman: McLovin926: the app set can be decide later.

(19:14:30) McLovin926: ok

(19:14:32) pcman: McLovin926: since that part is easy to fix.

(19:14:35) elfgoh hat den Raum verlassen (quit: "Leaving").

(19:14:50) pcman: McLovin926: thanks

(19:14:52) McLovin926: i can build off of old isos, to fix anything that is wrong in them

(19:15:00) pcman: ok

(19:15:08) dqminh hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Remote closed the connection).

(19:15:22) pcman: is there anyone who can update the wiki page?

(19:15:43) pcman: sorry that I'm going to sleep now since I need to work in the hospital later for 24 hours.....

(19:15:50) MarioB: starfall87: couled we update the wiki together?

(19:16:02) MarioB: pcman: sleep well Smile :-)

(19:16:06) starfall87: I might be able to work on it a bit

(19:16:08) pcman: MarioB: thx

(19:16:14) aluddin: ok

(19:16:22) pcman: thank you all.

(19:16:27) pcman: go to sleep now.

(19:16:28) davidng: it will still take sometimes for me to be able to do this

(19:16:31) maces: g8

(19:16:32) pastund: thank you too!

(19:16:36) pcman: good night

(19:16:46) johnthng: nite

(19:16:47) pcman hat den Raum verlassen.

(19:16:52) aluddin: good ninth

(19:17:15) pastund: I can test the iso on a Dell Latitude with 128mb and Pentium 2 mobile 366. but what are the testing criteria? I am just a PC user.

(19:17:36) maces: perfect

(19:17:40) maces: Wink ;)

(19:17:46) pastund: oh Big Grin :)

(19:17:52) starfall87: for anyone interested, I have been working on a replacement of g-p-m that has extra features

LXDE-lubuntu/IRC Meeting June 19, 2009 (last edited 2021-05-03 04:47:29 by guiverc)