IRC Meeting September 06, 2009

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(15:36:59) MarioB: rebentisch: hallo

(15:37:49) rebentisch: Hi Mario.

(15:43:42) rebentisch: tyf Open Innovation Summit communication fw

(16:19:39) dingding_ est désormais connu sous le nom de elfgoh_

(16:27:16) elfgoh a quitté le salon (quit: Connection timed out)

(16:53:01) hagisbasheruk [n=hagisbas@unaffiliated/hagisbasheruk] a rejoint le salon.

(16:58:01) hagisbasheruk: going to grab a coffee back ina couple of mins

(17:01:43) dyfet: Coffee is always a good thing Smile :)

(17:01:51) hagisbasheruk: ok back

(17:02:09) hagisbasheruk: i thought there would be a bigger turnout than this

(17:02:14) dyfet: Yes...

(17:03:22) dyfet: I guess we can do it more informally then Smile :)

(17:04:21) MarioB: moin

(17:04:29) hagisbasheruk: aye , introductions then

(17:04:35) MarioB: lets wait 5 minutes longer

(17:04:38) gilir: hello all

(17:04:40) dyfet: okay

(17:05:03) hagisbasheruk: I am Steven McDougall currebt project Manager for Kuki Linux and i am willing to help with all testing

(17:05:10) hagisbasheruk: okay

(17:05:21) hagisbasheruk: current*

(17:06:10) hagisbasheruk: currently runing lxde from ubuntu mini iso cli install

(17:09:18) MarioB: thank hagisbasheruk

(17:09:28) rebentisch: Kuki Linux, I see, a linpus replacement for Aspire One based on XFCE.

(17:09:42) MarioB: yes nice

(17:09:47) ***hyperair coughs

(17:10:11) dyfet: I am David Sugar, and I work on mobile development for Canonical. I originally inherited the Canonical LXDE spec from Oliver Grawert, and with it the commitment to produce a LXDE (Lubuntu) seed for Karmic, which I was very happy to do.

(17:11:18) MarioB: welcome everybody, i think we can make a short intro - name, project, country, interest in LXDE/Lubuntu and where you would like to help

(17:11:36) MarioB: dyfet: thanks

(17:12:51) gilir: Julien Lavergne, Ubuntu MOTU, I worked on LXDE packages during Karmic cycle

(17:13:23) AndrewLee: I am Andrew Lee from Taiwan, Debian Developer, maintain LXDE packages in Debian.

(17:14:35) hagisbasheruk: ohh if you didn't guess i am from Scotland

(17:14:39) hagisbasheruk: Smile :)

(17:14:41) rebentisch: Andr? Rebentisch, LXDE Foundation, Germany.

(17:16:03) Leechdraw: hi all

(17:16:45) rebentisch: You are welcome.

(17:16:55) MarioB: MarioB: Mario from Berlin, I started the Lubuntu project and I am happy that we bring LXDE/Ubuntu Karmic and Lubuntu together

(17:17:14) hyperair: Chow Loong Jin Ubuntu contributing developer, malaysian studying in singapore, haven't really contributed anything apart from registering thie channel

(17:17:30) hyperair: s/thie/this/

(17:18:31) MarioB: thanks to everyone for joining

(17:18:41) MarioB: lets first go over the agend

(17:18:41) MarioB: a

(17:19:13) elfgoh_: Hi all. Luther Goh here from Singapore. I am just helping out in #lubuntu and #lxde channels for the time being

(17:20:01) MarioB: Agenda

(17:20:02) MarioB: Discussion of separate release (development) team proposal

(17:20:02) MarioB: Discussion of seed issues for Karmic Should we get artwork merged into current seed for Karmic?

(17:20:02) MarioB: Discussion for planning for next UDS

(17:20:02) MarioB: Future schedule, whether we will have regular meetings and when

(17:20:02) MarioB: Anything anyone wishes to add

(17:20:21) MarioB: Is there anything you would like to add?

(17:21:37) rebentisch: Oliver Grawert, afaik he is from Germany but we don't have his contact data.

(17:21:41) wiebelhaus: No Sir , Not here.

(17:22:02) elfgoh_: Nothing from me

(17:22:12) MarioB: ok

(17:24:19) MarioB: dyfet: could you please explain the proposal for a separate release team

(17:24:21) MarioB: ?

(17:24:41) dyfet: The release (development) team proposal is simply to have a separate team responsible for the seed and bzr branch, and to resolve disputes over its content

(17:25:13) Genelyk a quitté le salon (quit: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))

(17:27:00) dyfet: I suggest a few people for this, and the release team be made under the Lubuntu team for this, and the bzr branches moved to that.

(17:27:30) MarioB: I think we need to explain a bit more why this is necessary

(17:27:43) gilir: it's necessary, you can't let 100 people have commit access to the seeds Smile :)

(17:28:10) dyfet: Exactly :). Because dispute resolution does not mean people go in and change the seed as they want Wink ;)

(17:28:26) dyfet: Which could potentially happen now

(17:29:15) AndrewLee: Do we really have that much people would commit to the seeds without discussion?

(17:30:11) dyfet: I recall one person on the list that did concern me in this way potentially already...

(17:30:21) Leechdraw a quitté le salon ("No matter how dark the night, somehow the Sun rises once again")

(17:30:27) ***hyperair believes prevention > cure

(17:30:40) rebentisch: In understand it is a potential problem and the issue emerged from the recent growth leap of the lubuntu launchpad registration, an effect from the media coverage which took us by surprise.

(17:31:39) dyfet: Yes, that also is very true.

(17:32:43) dyfet: And the concern was expressed by MOTU

(17:33:03) gilir: others seeds are managed like this

(17:33:29) gilir: only a little team have a direct access to the seed

(17:33:43) hagisbasheruk: sounds logical

(17:34:22) dyfet: And there is a goal of having an official lubuntu

(17:34:27) AndrewLee: I'd suggest to define a rules/policy for modify to the seed insetad of only give access to a few people.

(17:35:06) Gusions: hello lubuntu friends

(17:35:12) MarioB: dyfet: the main goal is to have a good distro. would be great if it can be official.

(17:35:16) MarioB: gilir: could you explain a bit please how things work then? how can people contribute and how does the workflow go?

(17:35:28) MarioB: Gusions: welcome

(17:35:48) Gusions: hello mario

(17:35:48) Gusions: Big Grin :)

(17:36:07) gilir: if someone want to modify the seed, he can branch the bzr repo, make his changes, push the new branch, and propose to merge into the official seed

(17:36:08) Gusions: what is the status of lubuntu?

(17:36:44) gilir: Launchpad has a good UI for merge-proposal like this

(17:37:14) ***gilir can make an example if it's not explain well Smile :)

(17:37:34) elfgoh_: gilir: yes please, that will be helpful for me

(17:38:19) dyfet: gilir: we should also add a howto/process overview for the wiki if we adopt the release team process

(17:38:37) Gusions: are a lubuntu developers?

(17:39:53) gilir: dyfet: if we are agree with the process, yes Smile :)

(17:41:27) MarioB: AndrewLee: I dont see a problem to make a release team, that takes responsibility as long as everything is transparent and does not exclude contributors.

(17:41:32) hagisbasheruk: Gusions, meeting in progress to discus development team

(17:42:00) dyfet: My proposal was to have the release team through the Karmic cycle only, to address MOTU concerns, and then review if we continue after Karmic

(17:42:05) Gusions: thanks a lot,but what are the the temes of the meeting

(17:42:06) Gusions: ?

(17:42:06) Gusions: Big Grin :)

(17:42:31) Genelyk: one question ... why graphics-Mirage and accesories- Image viewer ? why two aplications for images ?

(17:43:21) AndrewLee: Genelyk: Sorry. it's not a appropriate question during this meeting.

(17:43:32) Genelyk: ejejeje sorry

(17:43:33) Genelyk: u.u

(17:43:43) dyfet: Gusions: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC Meeting September 6, 2009, we are on the first item Smile :)

(17:44:07) Gusions: This page does not exist yet. You can create a new empty page, or use one of the page templates

(17:44:15) Gusions: the page is wrong man Wink ;)

(17:44:31) dyfet: Sorry, cut and paste replaced spaces...

(17:44:55) elfgoh_: Gusions: http://pastebin.com/d52ba7e29

(17:45:38) dyfet: thanks elfgoh_

(17:45:51) gilir: Ok, the merge proposal need additional modifications on current branch of lubuntu-desktop, but you can find help on https://help.launchpad.net/Code/Review

(17:46:11) Gusions: thanks a lot now i know the theme of the meeting

(17:46:27) AndrewLee: MarioB: I think to have a release team that takes responsibility is good. But I don't see it's necessary to create a separate team as long as no much people that really knows acts as a release team member.

(17:47:47) gilir: and an example of a merge proposal : https://code.launchpad.net/~malept/awn-extras/0.4-garbage-applet/+merge/11243

(17:48:22) dyfet: AndrewLee: the only reason was because thats how lp handles bzr commit access, that is whether it is mandatory access control or voluntary access control Smile :)

(17:50:19) MarioB: AndrewLee: in LXDE Sourceforge we also have a team of people, but not everyone has commit access. It seems in Launchpad it is necessary to make a subteam. A subteam also would have the advantage, that we have people to talk to about certain issues. Debian also has a release team for example.

(17:51:44) elfgoh_: I take it that this team structure is already implemented in other flavours of Ubuntu?

(17:51:59) dyfet: elfgoh_: yes

(17:52:59) elfgoh_: I see. Then I think I am quite agreeable with it

(17:53:46) dyfet: Should we vote on it?

(17:53:51) elfgoh_: But just wondering, are there any known problems/downsides to this that anyone is aware of in the current Ubuntu teams?

(17:54:16) elfgoh_: I am asking this to get a more objective and complete view

(17:54:42) dyfet: elfgoh_: well, thats why I proposed it provisionally for just the Karmic cycle...

(17:55:32) dyfet: elfgoh_: if we found it did not work or there are problems we can always "fix" it later Smile :)

(17:56:16) elfgoh_: dyfet: Definitely. I am not too knowledgeable with this and was wondering if anyone had anything to share

(17:58:41) MarioB: dyfet: honestly i see the potential problem and why we need to think about a release team, but the fact is that we dont have many people contributing to the seeds at the moment. so, in fact we dont have an issue here right now.

(17:58:42) Gusions a quitté le salon (quit: Ping timeout: 180 seconds)

(17:59:04) MarioB: dyfet: a way to proceed could also be to take the wikipedia approach: act when there is a problem

(17:59:19) AndrewLee: How does it work now? And how would it work after we have a subteam?

(17:59:26) hagisbasheruk: it seems that if this works well for the rest of the ubuntu teams then we should follow suit

(17:59:54) dyfet: MarioB: I simply note it was a request from MOTU. Hence, I defer to gilir as to how necessisary it is to do now

(17:59:59) MarioB: we have already defined most of the applications that should go into the seeds. if anyone does something else, he/she would clearly act against group decisions

(18:00:59) MarioB: dyfet: I know about MOTU, but maybe not everyone here is aware of who MOTUs are. Could you explain, please?

(18:01:13) gilir: MarioB: it's just to secure the seed a bit more

(18:01:38) dyfet: gilir: Would you like to do the MOTU intro?

(18:01:49) gilir: dyfet: ok Smile :)

(18:02:18) dyfet: more authoritative on that, I think, I am rather new Wink ;)

(18:02:34) ***elfgoh_ throws up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU to help speed up the explanation :p

(18:02:37) gilir: MOTU are people who have commit access to Ubuntu packages for Universe and Multiverse

(18:02:58) gilir: which include most of packages of the Lubuntu seeds Smile :)

(18:04:35) dyfet: It is important to note that MOTU is not synonymous with Canonical. Ubuntu itself is very much a community driven distro.

(18:08:42) dyfet: Are there any questions about MOTU?

(18:09:05) MarioB: dyfet: so, we could have a team for the release, but it does not mean members of the team have to be MOTUs, right?

(18:09:23) dyfet: MarioB: yes

(18:09:54) dyfet: It is not nessisary to be MOTU to create packages, only to actually commit them to the official archive

(18:10:28) gilir: modifications can be made in the team, and after sponsored by a MOTU to enter the archive

(18:10:53) MarioB: who is sponsoring the lubuntu seed at the moment?

(18:10:53) gilir: in this case, MOTU give only the authorisation, but didn't make any modifications to the package

(18:11:58) dyfet: I believe Scott Kitterman will be the person sponsoring it

(18:12:08) Genelyk a quitté le salon

(18:12:23) gilir: MarioB: it's a special case, because for Karmic new package need also authorisation from the Motu-release team

(18:12:35) gilir: because we are in FeatureFreeze

(18:12:45) MarioB: dyfet: so in fact, the MOTU still checks the seed. it would not matter if it is from an open team or a closed team. or do i understand that wrong?

(18:13:07) gilir: After the authorisation of the motu-release team, any MOTU can sponsor the package

(18:13:54) dyfet: MarioB: only the first time for a new package.

(18:14:21) MarioB: gilir: do MOTUs sponsor our package and then we can continue releasing new versions? or do they have to sponsor the package again after each change?

(18:15:19) gilir: MarioB: all modifications of a package in the archive need to be check before by a MOTU

(18:16:54) MarioB: gilir: could you explain please - what would be the advantage then of having a closed team? this mean what oliver wrote in the email (that everyone in our team could change the seed and change the universe repo directly) is not 100% correct

(18:18:54) gilir: MarioB: The creation of the closed team is to avoid the "bzr commit wars", than can happen if everybody have access to the seed

(18:19:03) dyfet: MarioB: mostly they will check if it builds and installs correctly, is lintian clean, etc, not if it is actually "correct", in terms of what packages are included in the seed, for example....

(18:20:24) MarioB: AndrewLee: what do you think? did we actually ever had commit wars in LXDE?

(18:20:59) gilir: in the case of open team, anybody can regenerate the seed, the package, and propose it to any MOTU to upload it

(18:21:41) hagisbasheruk: ooh that sounds bad

(18:21:49) MarioB: gilir: ah ok. so there is not one MOTU responsible for our package, but any MOTU could do it. Hm. I see.

(18:22:26) gilir: MarioB: yes, all MOTU are responsible of all packages on Universe, forget to mention this detail Smile :)

(18:23:03) dyfet: MarioB: MOTU is to assure the package is valid per debian policy, not that it is necissarily what the team wants Wink ;) A given MOTU will not have knowledge of that.

(18:23:19) AndrewLee: MarioB: I don't think so.

(18:23:35) dyfet: (per ubuntu policy)

(18:23:47) AndrewLee: MarioB: We have mailing list to avoid the commit wars in LXDE

(18:25:48) MarioB: dyfet: gilir: I think why there is a bit of a surprise about this suggestion about a closed team is - the LXDE community handled things pretty open over the last years and as far as I could see, it went out pretty well. People seem to be generally very constructive. So if we read about "commit wars", "dangerous policies" and "need to control" on the mailing list, it feels a bit strange.

(18:26:50) MarioB: anyway I think we have the necessary information and should get to a decision

(18:26:54) dyfet: MarioB: There probably should have been a discussion of MOTU much earlier, and how the commit process for Ubuntu works

(18:28:20) dyfet: MarioB: I agree, I think we have a clearer picture now for everyone here

(18:28:54) Genelyk: uhmmm

(18:29:08) MarioB: there are three ways i could see: 1. keep the way we work as is, observe how things go and decide when there is an issue 2. decide to keep the team open and define policies to follow 3. decide to make a release team

(18:29:21) MarioB: are there other ways?

(18:33:23) wiebelhaus a quitté le salon

(18:34:02) MarioB: do we need to decide right now?

(18:34:32) MarioB: or should we talk among each other and collect votes on the wiki for example?

(18:35:04) dyfet: If we do not decide now, then that is the same as choice #1 Smile :)

(18:35:54) MarioB: we could set a "deadline" to decide until (lets say 5 days)

(18:35:58) gilir: make a decision now doesn't mean we can't make another decision later Smile :)

(18:36:12) Genelyk: 3. +2 months before release 9.10

(18:36:13) Genelyk: Big Grin :)

(18:36:40) MarioB: if we make the effort for a release team, we are establishing a way to work. hard to change later

(18:36:50) hagisbasheruk: vote now ,change later if needed

(18:37:16) elfgoh_: I think there might be too little people to vote now

(18:37:32) MarioB: some core contributors are not in the channel

(18:37:37) elfgoh_: indeed

(18:37:55) dyfet: Well, we can inform the list as a whole of this in summary and solicit a vote over the next 5 days, through the wiki

(18:38:13) MarioB: +1

(18:38:16) dyfet: I think that is essentially what MarioB is proposing Smile :)

(18:38:17) johnthng a quitté le salon

(18:38:20) hagisbasheruk: +1

(18:38:57) rebentisch: +1

(18:39:28) AndrewLee: +1

(18:39:42) elfgoh_: heh i was thinking that 5 days is a bit long... was thinking that 3 days is better...

(18:40:05) elfgoh_: but yea 5 days

(18:40:06) elfgoh_: +1

(18:40:13) dyfet: +1 5 days

(18:40:16) gilir: +1

(18:40:31) Obi-Wahn a quitté le salon (quit: Remote closed the connection)

(18:40:36) MarioB: +1 5 days

(18:41:12) dyfet: okay, what was next on the agenda? Smile :)

(18:41:17) MarioB: overall. i think as soon as the core people voted we can start to pursue the way we decide. i hope we have a consensus decision

(18:41:31) MarioB: Discussion of seed issues for Karmic Should we get artwork merged into current seed for Karmic?

(18:42:43) MarioB: what is the opinion on that?

(18:42:55) dyfet: The choice I think is to try to do something in that now (since there is some stuff ready), or defer it until UDS spec and for Karmic +1

(18:43:05) hagisbasheruk: sure MarioB , i think this one is just a yes/no

(18:43:49) MarioB: yeah

(18:44:17) MarioB: so, the artwork will be in a seperate package then

(18:44:24) gilir: MarioB: how do you want to integrate the artwork in the seed ? how to deal with the default settings to point to the new artwork ?

(18:44:51) gilir: technicaly, I don't think we can add it in the seed directly

(18:45:31) MarioB: exactly, we need to make a separate package

(18:45:37) dyfet: There should be a separate lubuntu-artwork package the seed refers to...yes

(18:46:17) gilir: for me, there is 2 options : 1.patch current lxde packages and replace current artwork by lubuntu artwork 2.make a separate package with the artwork and settings

(18:46:29) MarioB: then we need to rewrite the config file of lxde packages

(18:46:48) MarioB: yeah

(18:46:59) dyfet: MarioB: this may be reason to defer to Karmic +1 rather than try to get it changed and in now...

(18:47:31) gilir: I send a mail on lubuntu-desktop mailing list last night about it, don't know if everyone read it Smile :)

(18:47:39) MarioB: i think # 2 is more sustainable. as we can always take existing deb packages

(18:48:00) rebentisch: It that a trivial issue or does it require special policies?

(18:48:05) AndrewLee: I'd think we can even work closer with upstream to improve the default config and artwork.

(18:48:37) AndrewLee: gilir: I read. Smile :)

(18:49:24) Genelyk: Smile :)

(18:49:57) ***elfgoh_ read it too

(18:50:06) MarioB: best would be to define members who take over tasks like this and push for the resolution of issues.

(18:50:33) MarioB: gilir: would you be able to take the responsibility here?

(18:51:23) MarioB: generally i prefer that we have a seperate package. is there an agreement?

(18:51:38) rebentisch: +1

(18:51:44) elfgoh_: +1

(18:51:56) dyfet: +1

(18:52:05) gilir: MarioB: sure Smile :)

(18:52:23) hagisbasheruk: +1

(18:52:29) MarioB: ok good

(18:52:53) gilir: but the solution require some decisions (see my mail), so we need to know if we do it for Karmic or Karmic +1

(18:53:29) MarioB: so gilir will work together with Andrew to have special artwork for lubuntu and will keep up updated. Great!

(18:54:24) MarioB: gilir: what do you think? i am not sure, if the existing artwork is what we want

(18:54:43) MarioB: i suggest to have a competition for a logo for example

(18:54:56) rebentisch: indeed.

(18:55:10) MarioB: i talked about it with maces. he could involve here.

(18:55:14) dyfet: I think there is not enough time for Karmic to do it correctly

(18:55:21) MarioB: agree

(18:55:37) gilir: MarioB: for artwork, a vote and/or a competition is IMO the best Smile :)

(18:56:00) dyfet: gilir, MarioB: agreed too

(18:56:53) hagisbasheruk: i think a competition would be the way to go ,might bring more intrest

(18:56:54) gilir: according to Karmic schedule, artwork deadline is Setptember 24th

(18:57:12) MarioB: hm.

(18:57:35) MarioB: when i think about it. would be nice

(18:57:41) MarioB: gilir: what do you think?

(18:59:09) gilir: so we have 18 days, we can have 12 days for candidate, and 4 days for vote

(18:59:28) MarioB: i think it would be possible

(18:59:42) gilir: very short but maybe possible

(18:59:45) rebentisch: Either it will be ready or not. No risk.

(18:59:57) ***rebentisch likes clean cut deadlines

(19:00:00) MarioB: if we already have set up the artwork package and the config defined - so that we just need to put in the logo

(19:00:55) MarioB: gilir: +1

(19:01:34) dyfet: +1 also

(19:02:05) MarioB: ok, good then proceed

(19:02:07) MarioB: Discussion for planning for next UDS

(19:02:14) MarioB: when is the next UDS?

(19:02:21) dyfet: I added that only because I was not sure how long the meeting would run Smile :)

(19:02:34) MarioB: ic

(19:02:49) MarioB: so, i think we can talk about it at a later time

(19:02:54) dyfet: We can

(19:03:14) MarioB: proceed

(19:03:14) MarioB: Future schedule, whether we will have regular meetings and when

(19:03:46) MarioB: we had three meetings before. people said it is sometimes difficult to attend

(19:04:02) MarioB: still i think, we can discuss things here and people can read the logs later. so it would be good

(19:04:10) MarioB: how often/when?

(19:04:25) dyfet: I was initially thinking monthly

(19:05:01) MarioB: sounds good

(19:05:07) hagisbasheruk: +1

(19:05:34) gilir: +1, it's not easy to do more, especially with our different geographic localisation Smile :)

(19:05:35) rebentisch: You mean the time zone issues? +1

(19:05:55) dyfet: +1

(19:06:11) elfgoh_: i was thinking twice a month... each one in different time zones

(19:06:37) rebentisch: Taipeh is Mo 1:05

(19:06:50) dyfet: elfgoh_: I think when we have more people attending, that could make sense to do

(19:06:59) MarioB: i agree for a later time. at the moment the community is still small.

(19:07:29) rebentisch: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html

(19:07:29) MarioB: anything else to add for today?

(19:08:56) MarioB: results for today: 1. set up a wiki page for decision making for how to handle releases 2. gilir responsible for artwork coordination in cooperation with Andrew 3. monthly meeting from now on

(19:09:11) MarioB: Thanks to everyone!

(19:09:22) elfgoh_: Good day!

(19:09:32) dyfet: A very good day, I think Smile :)

(19:09:39) ***elfgoh_ see the clock at 1:09am in Singapore

(19:10:09) MarioB: elfgoh_: see you at SFD in Singapore in a few days Smile :-)

(19:10:51) gilir: AndrewLee: I'll publish my modifications to bzr branch and send link for review/advice/help etc ... Smile :)

(19:12:26) rebentisch: You're invited to a beer this evening in Berlin Wink ;-)

(19:12:47) dyfet: Sponsored by the free beer foundation? Smile :)

(19:12:47) elfgoh_: MarioB: See have a safe trip here. The linuxNUS coreteam is quite busy with that

(19:13:09) AndrewLee: gilir: Please feel free to make changes in LXDE package directly if you think any change that better goes to debian or upstream.

(19:29:38) Genelyk: Xd

(19:45:12) hagisbasheruk a quitté le salon (quit: Remote closed the connection)

(19:48:31) rebentisch: gb

(19:48:35) rebentisch a quitté le salon

(19:52:52) MarioB a quitté le salon

Lubuntu/IRC Meeting September 06, 2009 (last edited 2009-09-08 21:39:39 by gilir)