20111214

General Agenda Items and Proposals

Who

What

Everybody

Show of hands to gauge attendance

gilir

Review ACTIONS from the last meeting

Yorvyk

User - Devel separate mailing list

gilir

non-PAE support future

phillw

Quick Update on Q.A. Testing.

Location

Lubuntu Team Meeting

Place

  • IRC: irc.freenode.org
  • Channel: #ubuntu-meeting
  • Webchat link

Time

Logs

#title #ubuntu-meeting Meeting

Meeting started by gilir at 20:03:27 UTC. The full logs are available at http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-12-14-20.03.log.txt .

Meeting summary

LINK: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC%20Meetings/Agenda (david_j_r, 20:04:59)

  • Review ACTIONS from the last meeting

LINK: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Meetings/20111130#Action_items (gilir, 20:07:09)

  • LXProxy - we need this tested thoroughly and working
  • User - Devel separate mailing list

ACTION: gilir to request creation of a list on lists.ubuntu.com (gilir, 20:33:26)

  • A POC for maintaining Lubuntu FAQ pages
  • non-PAE support future

ACTION: gilir to see if we can keep the 2 kernels on live CD (gilir, 20:44:48)

  • Quick Update on Q.A. Testing.

ACTION: gilir to update how the release team is informed (gilir, 21:04:29)

Meeting ended at 21:04:44 UTC.

Votes

Action items

  • gilir to request creation of a list on lists.ubuntu.com
  • gilir to see if we can keep the 2 kernels on live CD
  • gilir to update how the release team is informed

Action items, by person

  • gilir
  • * gilir to request creation of a list on lists.ubuntu.com
  • * gilir to see if we can keep the 2 kernels on live CD
  • * gilir to update how the release team is informed

People present (lines said)

  • gilir (77)
  • phillw (46)
  • wxl (32)
  • Yorvyk (16)
  • StephenSmally (14)

  • michaelrawson (10)
  • jmarsden|work (9)
  • rafaellaguna_ (6)
  • meetingology (6)
  • Unit193 (4)
  • david_j_r (2)
  • gastly (1)
  • kbhaskar (1)
  • rafaellaguna (1)

Full Log

 20:03:27 <gilir> #startmeeting

 20:03:27 <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Dec 14 20:03:27 2011 UTC.  The chair is gilir. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.

 20:03:27 <meetingology> 

 20:03:27 <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired

 20:03:48 <gilir> hi everyones :)

 20:04:15 <david_j_r> `°    (= back row)

 20:04:20 <StephenSmally> gilir: Hi, hope i'm not late

 20:04:24 <gilir> for the record, the agenda is still at this page : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Meetings/20111130

 20:04:26 <michaelrawson> hi!

 20:04:31 <kbhaskar> hello :)

 20:04:34 <StephenSmally> hi michael

 20:04:37 <gilir> hum no, here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC%20Meetings/Agenda

 20:04:55 <michaelrawson> hi stephen.

 20:04:59 <david_j_r> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC%20Meetings/Agenda

 20:05:33 <gilir> as usual we will follow the topics on the agenda, if you want to ask a question, just o/

 20:06:36 <gilir> [TOPIC] Review ACTIONS from the last meeting

 20:07:03 <phillw> gilir: roll call?

 20:07:09 <gilir> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Meetings/20111130#Action_items

 20:07:41 * Unit193 

 20:07:50 <jmarsden|work> phillw: You waited, so now you don't get a chance to o/  <grin>!

 20:08:13 <gilir> it should be just after the startmeeting ;)

 20:08:13 <phillw> jmarsden|work: no point o/ before #startmeeting :D

 20:08:58 <gilir> ok, I'll improve the introduction next week :p

 20:09:25 <phillw> np :)

 20:09:33 <gilir> So from last meeting, I still need to do a summary about ARM testing

 20:09:41 <wxl> ok i'm alive

 20:09:45 <gilir> still an action for me :p

 20:09:58 <rafaellaguna> Hi

 20:10:03 <StephenSmally> hi

 20:10:27 <gilir> About QA meeting, I saw last week that it's more about doing a summary of what it's done for QA in Lubuntu

 20:10:51 <phillw> gilir: I have added that for later.

 20:10:57 <gilir> personnaly, I can't be at the meeting, and I'm not sure we have enough material to do a full report

 20:11:28 <gilir> phillw, ok, let's talk about this later

 20:12:04 <gilir> Yorvyk, I saw a mail about Ubuntu news on the list, do you have more news about it ?

 20:13:22 <Yorvyk> I forwarded the information they asked for to the news mailing list, all the y require is a link to the team meeting minutes/logs

 20:13:53 <Yorvyk> I'll do that each week as sson as the logs are up

 20:14:00 <gilir> cool, not too much work for us :)

 20:14:11 <gilir> Yorvyk, thanks

 20:14:18 <Yorvyk> Yes a nice easy job for a change :0

 20:14:39 <gilir> I'll keep the same format for the wiki pages, should be easier even for them to find the information :)

 20:15:01 <gilir> About the wiki page, any progress on the prototype ?

 20:15:35 <gilir> wxl, ^

 20:17:41 <gilir> ok let's move on, we can about it at the end of the meeting

 20:17:50 <gilir> [TOPIC] LXProxy - we need this tested thoroughly and working

 20:18:14 <gilir> Yorvyk, you want to start ?

 20:18:29 <Yorvyk> Can we revist this later as I've lost my notes on this at the moment

 20:18:43 <gilir> ok

 20:18:54 <gilir> [TOPIC] User - Devel separate mailing list

 20:19:03 <gilir> I'll introduce this one

 20:19:28 <wxl> sorry i disappeared

 20:19:32 <gilir> so, with lubuntu official, we can request a "real" mailing list on https://lists.ubuntu.com/

 20:19:47 <Yorvyk> Good idea

 20:19:57 <wxl> so it was suggested i do dpkg --list and put it on the wiki which i could have done but i was unable to create a new wiki page

 20:20:02 <rafaellaguna_> Seems we're moving onto Ubuntu servers for everything...

 20:20:10 <gilir> I think it's a good idea to move there, instead of our launchpad mailing list

 20:20:21 <phillw> gilir: too true :)

 20:20:43 <phillw> you may also request lubuntu cloaks for members whom are deemed worth them.

 20:20:59 <gilir> phillw, that's another topic :)

 20:21:02 <wxl> ooh a lubuntu cloak i want one ;)

 20:21:13 <phillw> gilir: soz :/

 20:21:40 <Unit193> Also, need to either move people or packages out of the -desktop ppa

 20:21:44 <gilir> one question remain, do we stay with 1 mailing list, or do we split between devel and users ?

 20:22:02 <phillw> gilir: I'd go for splitting it.

 20:22:10 <michaelrawson> I say devel and users.

 20:22:14 <Unit193> I'd vote for split

 20:22:20 <gilir> Unit193, we can keep the PPA, I just plan to move the mailing list

 20:22:26 <wxl> meh i'd say otherwise

 20:22:52 <Yorvyk> The problem with splitting them is things tend to get cross posted with a small team.  This can be seen on the LXDE lists.

 20:22:54 <wxl> i agree with the logic of organizing but the traffic is so low it's almost pointless, at least at this point.

 20:22:56 <phillw> wxl: you can be member of both

 20:23:07 <StephenSmally> i think split the mailing lists is a good idea

 20:23:14 <wxl> +1 Yorvyk

 20:23:15 <rafaellaguna_> mee too

 20:23:22 <wxl> (tho i do understand phillw's point)

 20:23:46 <wxl> in general i'm not a big fan of mailing lists anyways so i'm jaded. nevermind me ;)

 20:23:56 <phillw> general support questions and dev's chatting are two different animals.

 20:24:07 <gilir> well, I think like Yorvyk, there is still low traffic, and it's nice to have everyones in the same place

 20:24:17 <wxl> there is often overlap

 20:24:26 <wxl> especially when bugs are unveiled

 20:24:39 <wxl> and often times the devs need user help to figure out the symptoms of what's going on

 20:24:40 <rafaellaguna_> gilir: will be complicated when traffic increase?

 20:24:42 <gilir> phillw, but sometimes, support request are bug reports ;)

 20:24:51 <wxl> +1 gilir

 20:25:04 <gilir> rafaellaguna_, probably

 20:25:24 <jmarsden|work> Suggestion: start with one list for now; decide on a volume (say 50 msgs/day? average for 1 week) at which we will split off a dev list

 20:25:34 <phillw> gilir: as I said, there is nothing to stop devs being on the general mailing list. It just reduces chatter for the devs. But, as always in lubuntu - we do what the devs want / need :)

 20:26:17 <gilir> jmarsden|work, it sounds like a good plan

 20:26:19 <Yorvyk> One list and see how it goes.

 20:26:38 <michaelrawson> Although I agree, I think it needs to be handled in a way that doesn't make ordinary users feel it's "us and them".

 20:26:40 <gilir> phillw, I don't have a strong feeling about this :)

 20:27:10 <wxl> should we vote? ;)

 20:27:12 <Yorvyk> Is it easy to transfer everybody from launchpad to https://lists.ubuntu.com/  or will we have to subscribe to the new list

 20:27:15 <StephenSmally> IMHO the problem is that if a new user use the mailing list, will see a lot of devs threads, and can feel confused (just like "What the hell are they talking about!")

 20:27:16 <phillw> michaelrawson: any 'us' (user) can mail to 'them' (devs)

 20:27:32 <wxl> i don't see a lot of dev threads at all

 20:27:43 <gilir> Yorvyk, subscription, but maybe we can subscribe lubuntu-desktop mailing list for the transition

 20:27:50 <wxl> i see the occassional one.. and i like to see it even if it's not directly relevant to me

 20:27:55 <StephenSmally> wxl: you're right, but i hope they'll increase

 20:28:21 <wxl> StephenSmally: good question-- has the lack of a dev list kept the devs from posting more?

 20:28:30 <michaelrawson> phillw: good point. Although I can see the dev list being obscure, and the lubuntu support list being quite obvious. But I'll shut up. ;)

 20:28:43 <Yorvyk> An increase in traffic could make the list look more useful as it can be a bit quiet at times

 20:29:05 <phillw> gilir: Yorvyk how does xubuntu go about their lists? It's great to learn from others :)

 20:29:29 <Unit193> Xubuntu has users and devel

 20:29:30 <rafaellaguna_> <cof>or copy<cof>

 20:30:57 <Yorvyk> Like everyvody but us they have a dev and user list

 20:31:37 <gilir> ok, let's start with 1 mailing list, we can always revisit this decision if we need, and make another one later

 20:32:03 <michaelrawson> sensible decision.

 20:32:09 <phillw> could we, as we as we used to do, pop it as a vote on the mailing list for a vote?

 20:32:19 <phillw> -vote

 20:32:36 <wxl> oh boy

 20:32:42 <wxl> i'd rather not personally

 20:32:44 <gilir> phillw, I don't think it's enough important / strategic for a vote :)

 20:32:52 <phillw> okies :)

 20:33:00 <wxl> if anything i would suggest posting a poll somewhere (not on the mailling list)

 20:33:09 <jmarsden|work> gilir: #action someone to ask for a list on lists.ubuntu.com -- who will do this?

 20:33:09 <wxl> i don't want 20,000 messages with yays and nays in them

 20:33:18 <Yorvyk> Lest just se if the devs start to make a lot of noise and take it from there.

 20:33:23 * gastly sneaks in

 20:33:26 <gilir> [ACTION] gilir to request creation of a list on lists.ubuntu.com

 20:33:26 * meetingology gilir to request creation of a list on lists.ubuntu.com

 20:33:58 <gilir> [TOPIC] A POC for maintaining Lubuntu FAQ pages

 20:34:30 <gilir> Hum is Mohi here ?

 20:34:41 <Yorvyk> BRB

 20:34:53 <michaelrawson> o/

 20:35:07 <gilir> yes michaelrawson ?

 20:35:31 <michaelrawson> what's a POC?

 20:35:33 <jmarsden|work> If the FAQ is a Wiki page, does it really need a designated person?  everyone with an account can edit it...

 20:35:37 <phillw> gilir: 17:08:40 UTC, which was 3 hours, 27 minutes, and 34 seconds ago.

 20:35:45 <jmarsden|work> Point Of Contact

 20:35:45 <phillw> he seems to have vanished?

 20:35:47 <wxl> proof of concept

 20:35:47 <wxl> ?

 20:36:04 <gilir> ok let's move to the next one

 20:36:11 <phillw> I was chatting to him earlier in the day.

 20:36:22 <gilir> [TOPIC] non-PAE support future

 20:36:54 <gilir> ok, so there are news about non-PAE support

 20:37:34 <gilir> for now, the decision for ubuntu is to switch to PAE support by default, but to keep non-PAE available for 12.04

 20:38:01 <gilir> the non-PAE support will probably be removed for 12.10

 20:38:13 <Yorvyk> o/

 20:38:46 <gilir> an interesting statistics was given during the meeting : about 5 % of users who report bugs on Launchpad don't have PAE support

 20:38:46 <wxl> a surprising twist given linus' caustic opinion on the subject but c'est la vie

 20:39:03 <Yorvyk> Does that mean the PAE kernel will be the one the ISOs boot from

 20:39:32 <Yorvyk> I expect it to be less than 1%

 20:39:36 <wxl> or am i getting confused?

 20:39:42 <wxl> oh well, it's fine

 20:39:52 <gilir> my idea is to keep PAE by default on the live ISO, but using the non-PAE for alternate ISO

 20:39:56 <jmarsden|work> gilir: I wonder if that is people posting bugs from inside VMs with PAE emulation disabled?? :)

 20:40:04 <StephenSmally> can't we just use general kernel? (probably there are problems, but i don't know'em)

 20:40:18 <gilir> jmarsden|work, I don't have this information ;)

 20:40:26 <phillw> gilir: that makes sense.

 20:40:52 <Yorvyk> gilir:  that sounds like a good compromise

 20:41:03 <StephenSmally> Why not launch the live with non PAE, then install it if the cpu has support?

 20:41:16 <gilir> StephenSmally, it's better to keep what ubuntu uses, especially for such complex piece of software :)

 20:41:50 <michaelrawson> gilir: you could argue that lubuntu was designed for old hardware such as this.

 20:41:57 <gilir> StephenSmally, the code to auto-detect the PAE support exist in the installer

 20:42:12 <phillw> michaelrawson: he did, that's why it is there on the alternate :)

 20:42:13 <wxl> i guess i'm confused about this: before was pae, now non-pae will be available too, but non-pae is going to disappear in the future? i.e. nothing is changing relative to the past?

 20:42:14 <gilir> StephenSmally, it's probably possible, but we will have to keep 2 kernel on the live ISO

 20:42:22 <StephenSmally> mmm

 20:42:32 <StephenSmally> right

 20:42:44 <gilir> but, it's only a problem of space on the CD, which is not so problematic of us

 20:42:46 <rafaellaguna_> michaelrawson: not really designed for that, but works better on those

 20:42:54 <michaelrawson> phillw: I was referring to his comment to stehpen, but confused now, so never mind me.

 20:42:57 <gilir> of us => for us

 20:44:23 <gilir> StephenSmally, I'll look at this possibility, it's a good idea :)

 20:44:35 * wxl is confused.

 20:44:35 <StephenSmally> thanks :-)

 20:44:48 <gilir> [ACTION] gilir to see if we can keep the 2 kernels on live CD

 20:44:48 * meetingology gilir to see if we can keep the 2 kernels on live CD

 20:45:08 <gilir> so with this solution, nothing would change for 12.04 :)

 20:45:25 * phillw keeps fingers crossed

 20:45:47 <gilir> [TOPIC] Quick Update on Q.A. Testing.

 20:45:57 <gilir> phillw, ^ :)

 20:46:18 <phillw> Hi, the QA team are setting up auto-testing of the more mundane things.

 20:46:36 <phillw> they are also liasing with Mozilla about a new testing scheme

 20:46:51 <phillw> this should take some of the drudgery out of testing RC's

 20:47:31 <phillw> But, in the process, they are after iso testing, concentrating on *Ubuntu* specific included apps.

 20:47:53 <StephenSmally> o/

 20:47:55 <phillw> as writing testcases for Banshee should get less priority than Rhythmbox, as rhythmbox is default one

 20:48:12 <phillw> StephenSmally:

 20:48:30 <StephenSmally> i can't still get what Q.A. is...

 20:48:44 <gilir> quality assurance

 20:48:52 <wxl> more or less, testing

 20:49:02 <gilir> it's == to testing, to be simple :)

 20:49:16 <StephenSmally> thanks

 20:49:20 <phillw> StephenSmally: Qualtity Assurance, before a milestone release is set upon the public, it is tested heavily against certain criterea

 20:49:27 <rafaellaguna_> but reports go to the same place...

 20:50:23 <gilir> phillw, I saw that there are many efforts to make automated testing for this cycle

 20:50:37 <phillw> on the subject of them concentrating upon standard ubuntu stuff, they are also going to write up a system for adding non-standard ones. Which I think will be AbiWord & GnuMeric

 20:51:21 <gilir> i didn't request lubuntu specific stuff, mostly because I'm not sure we will have the time to look at them (the logs of the tests)

 20:51:25 <phillw> The updating of existing tests is on-going and they are due to write up how to make a new one in the coming weeks,

 20:51:57 <phillw> gilir: you can action that one to me :)

 20:52:18 <phillw> I'm really interested in how the auto-testing pans out across the whole of QA

 20:52:24 <wxl> does this explain why unity and compiz are installed with lubuntu 12.04? ;)

 20:52:55 <phillw> wxl, I would not know.

 20:53:03 <gilir> phillw, well, the problem it's when it failed, you have to analyze it and find what's going on

 20:53:16 <phillw> I've read that bit :)

 20:53:18 <gilir> wxl, it's bug

 20:53:24 <jmarsden|work> So they will do tests for Firefox, OOo, Thunderbird... not Chromium, Abiword, Sylpheed, ... if they automated installer testing (using preseeding?) for a variety of install scenarios, that would be good to have for Lubuntu...

 20:53:36 * gilir should fix it today ....

 20:53:59 <phillw> the only other thing of note was the recent mail regarding Chromium failing to build since november last year?

 20:54:07 <wxl> gilir: understand, just didn't know if the root cause had something to do with this automation.

 20:54:54 <phillw> jmarsden|work: it is all pretty much developing week by week. I am keen to keep up to speed with it :)

 20:56:13 <gilir> phillw, what is currently automated ? Only ISO testing or is there some applications already ready for automated testing ?

 20:57:12 <phillw> gilir: jenkins has the list https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise%20ISO%20Testing%20Dashboard/view/Daily/  We're hoping to have the guy give us a run through after the holiday period

 20:58:00 <phillw> currently, it is only doing 'core' stuff.

 20:58:41 <phillw> ISO testing is not yet automated, it is the 1st priority for the new system.

 20:58:44 <jmarsden|work> phillw: OK... if you need a few test cases to try, installation testing for Lubuntu would be my suggestion :)

 20:59:29 <phillw> jmarsden|work: you will be pleased to know that now I have lubuntu 11.10 on piglet, I have all my VM's back :)

 20:59:46 <jmarsden|work> Oh, good, that's progress :)

 21:00:12 <gilir> phillw, I'll be happy if you keep an eye on this QA stuff :)

 21:00:16 <phillw> and my master iso is zsync, so I can chop my iso's over quite quickly

 21:00:28 <phillw> gilir: I'm more than happy to do so.

 21:00:55 <gilir> ok, I think it's time

 21:01:07 <gilir> nobody with emergency topic ?

 21:01:08 <phillw> gilir: it was hinted as to if there was a chance of you re-starting your weekly emails to the lubuntu tam?

 21:01:15 <wxl> nope just fix that bug gilir :D

 21:01:54 <gilir> phillw, which email ? the one to the release team ?

 21:02:27 <phillw> you used to send one to the lubuntu ML. We had to have stuff in by Thursday for you to include it on the Friday email?

 21:03:24 <gilir> I still make an update on Friday for the release team, you can still send me topics to add before it

 21:03:56 <phillw> oops, we are out of time. Can I pm you, please?

 21:04:04 <gilir> the organisation of the release team meeting changed, I'll do an email to the team about this

 21:04:29 <gilir> [ACTION] gilir to update how the release team is informed

 21:04:29 * meetingology gilir to update how the release team is informed

 21:04:44 <gilir> #endmeeting

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Lubuntu/Meetings/20111214 (last edited 2012-01-16 09:25:06 by marcus.moeller)