2004-11-15

#Ubuntu-Meeting

Ubuntu-Meeting Log 2004-11-15

Topic: Documentation Team Meeting, 2004-11-04 13:00UTC
Agenda:Located at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting

12:37   sparkes_x       won't be here for start of doc meeting
12:37   sparkes_x       I am logging
12:37   sparkes_x       afk bbl
12:42   sivang  sparkes_x : why x ? :)
12:43   sparkes is this better?
12:43   sparkes_x       lot's of lag on my other client this direct one seems best today
12:43   sparkes_x       bbl really late now ;-)
12:45   sivang  how late is it for you?
12:46   sparkes_x       it's almost midday ;-) but I have to be elsewhere for the next hour or so
01:02   sivang  darn.
01:02   sivang  had to crash x,
01:02   sivang  tried to use nvtv to attend meeting through TV
01:04   sivang  does anybody knows of other people who might be on their way to attend this?
01:06   sivang  hmm, not much of reaction..is there anybody here alive?
01:08   sivang  each person who's alive here, please say "beep" :)
01:09   sivang  ok, let's try and start - see how long can I talk to myself :)
01:50   sivang  yo asw!
01:50   sivang  :)
01:50   sivang  whassup?
01:50   asw     not too much. I'd like to see if I can make the community meeting in Barcelona.  Anybody else from the Doc team going to be there?
01:52   sivang  I would love to be there, not sure if I could manage to though.
01:54   hornbeck        hey no talking
01:54   asw     I seem to have taken the unlikely role of Free Software zealot in the group but I do find it slightly grating that we don't uniformly follow the Debian/FSF policy of referring to this O/S as either "Ubuntu" full-stop or "Ubuntu GNU/Linux".  I have the irrational desire to go and change every URL that has http://www.ubuntulinux.org to be http://www.ubuntu.com
01:54   hornbeck        :-)
01:55   hornbeck        alot of the url's don't seems to work with just www.ubuntu.com
01:56   Kamion  ubuntulinux.org was an unfortunate consequence of domain handling politics
01:56   Kamion  apart from the domain, I believe that we consistently refer to ourselves as simply "Ubuntu". If you find exceptions, please correct them.
01:57   asw     hornbeck: can you give an example? Re. broken ubuntu.com links?  There should be a standard procedure for filing doc/wiki bugreports (if there isn't already.)
01:57   sivang  Kamion : we can make some clarification so to note our gratitude to GNU , what do you think?
01:58   hornbeck        asw: I have not tried them in awhile but for the longest alot of the wiki pages did not work
01:58   asw     Kamion: I had been told the same thing by Mako. I'm perfectly happy with the idea of the "Ubuntu O/S" full stop.
02:00   Kamion  we standardised on simply "Ubuntu" to avoid the whole debate.
02:01   sivang  ok, that's fine altogether. In docs and referneces we can just say "Ubuntu is a Debian GNU/Linux system, ..." for the record
02:01   Kamion  it's not
02:01   sivang  it's not ?
02:01   Kamion  it's a derivative of Debian GNU/Linux; it's not a Debian GNU/Linux system
02:02   hornbeck        nice beagle pics up the mozilla extentions now
02:02   sivang  oops, yes I menat a based
02:02   asw     in particular, hornbeck's proposed book should either be "Learning the Ubuntu Operating System" or "Learning Ubuntu GNU/Linux" but -not- "Learning Ubuntu Linux" as it is currently called.  I don't want to tell other people what to name their work, so, I find the whole thing very awkward.  Kamion: yes standardize on Ubuntu (operating sytem) full-stop.  Does that sound good to everybody else?
02:03   sivang  asw : it pretty good to me.
02:03   sivang  anyways,
02:03   sivang  shall we start?
02:03   sivang  Has everybody glanced at the agenda?
02:03   hornbeck        is sparkes here?
02:03   sivang  hmm good point
02:03   sivang  let's see
02:04   sivang  if no one objects, I don't mind waiting 10 more minutes before we start..:) so maybe every interested party would get the chance
02:05   George^Deka     hi all
02:05   hornbeck        hello
02:05   asw     hi
02:05   hornbeck        yes sivang I think we need to wait a few for people strolling in
02:06   sivang  yes I see now
02:07   sivang  hey plovs!
02:07   hornbeck        plovs!!!!!!
02:07   hornbeck        you know its amazing how in a chat you act so excited about seeing another grown man
02:07   hornbeck        hmmm
02:08   hornbeck        lets retract a couple of the !!! from that
02:08   sivang  hi lulu, good to see you here :)
02:08   lulu    Hi all! Great to see such a turnout - sorry I'm late - been working with plovs
02:09   plovs_work      hi guys!
02:09   sivang  no it's ok, we're still waiting a bunch for people strolling in...
02:09   hornbeck        I think we are pretty good now
02:10   lulu    sivang: is it a standup meeting? I may be a bit behind on email - do we have an agenda and a time limit?
02:10   sivang  lulu : I've yet to think of a time limit, but the agenda is linked from the topic
02:10   plovs_work      my time-limit 45 minutes, i have a meeting afterwards
02:10   lulu    ahh - there it is - thanks :o)
02:11   hornbeck        I work in about a hour
02:11   plovs_work      who makes a backup of this whole thing and sends it to enrico?
02:11   asw     i can do that gladly.
02:12   lulu    asw:thank you!
02:12   hornbeck        sivang: want to start
02:12   plovs_work      so, shall we go from top to bottom then on the http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting ?
02:12   sivang  yo enrico my man!
02:13   enrico  Hello all!
02:13   sivang  thank you enrico for managin this,
02:13   plovs_work      the man himself!
02:13   lulu    hey enrico!  will you chair the meeting then?
02:13   sivang  enrico : ?
02:13   enrico  lulu: I can do it, not sure for how much, but I'm confident I can spend at least an hour here
02:14   enrico  I'm loading galeon and getting to the docmeeteing page
02:14   asw     enrico: seems that others have to go in an hour too. hornbeck, plovs...
02:14   sivang  galeon???
02:14   enrico  sivang: a web browser
02:14   sivang  it's oldie , isn't it?
02:15   enrico  yes
02:15   sivang  that's why the ???
02:15   sivang  :)
02:15   lulu    guys....... :o) shall we begin!?
02:15   enrico  Let's begin!
02:15   sivang  yes!
02:15   enrico  Who's there?
02:16   enrico  * Enrico
02:16   sivang  * Sivan
02:16   asw     * asw
02:16   hornbeck        * hornbeck
02:16   lulu    * lulu
02:16   ChrisH  * ChrisH
02:16   George^Deka     * George^Deka
02:16   sivang  we have several new people here, I would like them to shortly introduce themselves
02:17   enrico  Let's begin from the beginning: state of the documentation team
02:17   enrico  who's who and who does what
02:18   hornbeck        can I start?
02:18   enrico  hornbeck: sure, please
02:18   hornbeck        ok
02:19   hornbeck        I am setting up a svn server for the doc team
02:19   hornbeck        it will be active the beginning of next week and be hosted out of my home
02:19   hornbeck        I have not done much doc work because I have been learning how to set this all up :-)
02:20   hornbeck        I will be giving ssh accounts to certain doc members so if you would like to be on the list please contact me
02:20   asw     hornbeck svn?
02:20   enrico  asw: subversion
02:20   lulu    hornbeck: Rationale for setup?
02:21   hornbeck        lulu: Ubuntu dev's would not give us room to work on large files
02:21   hornbeck        so I bought a bigger line into the house and some static ip's
02:21   sparkes_x       how far down the agenda are we?
02:21   sivang  not started
02:21   sivang  :)
02:21   hornbeck        sparkes just started
02:21   enrico  asw: a version control system like CVS and Arch  (if you ignore the authors of cvs, svn and arch telling you that they're all so extremely and fundamentally different ;)
02:21   sivang  you didn't miss a thing
02:21   sivang  :)
02:21   sparkes_x       cool
02:21   asw     um. I, personally, use GNU Arch.  Canonical is also investing heavily in Arch (see Bazar).  
02:21   hornbeck        if we do not like svn, we can try something else
02:22   lulu    hornbeck: i.e. working on books? who did you ask?
02:22   enrico  lulu: mdz
02:22   sparkes_x       I love svn but arch sounds, errrm interesting
02:22   hornbeck        lulu: mdz
02:22   lulu    ok - right.....
02:22   sivang  I think we might altogether switch to Bazzar, might also help canonical in testing and patches
02:22   asw     See http://www.canonical.com/projects/
02:22   lulu    sivang: that is what I'd like to suggest - Robert Collins would help you hornbeck
02:23   hornbeck        is that what everyone wants?
02:23   hornbeck        to use arch and bazar when it is ready?
02:23   sivang  plus it would make merging the repo into canonical, once this is approved by upranks
02:23   sparkes_x       RCollins help hornbeck with what?
02:23   sparkes_x       sivang, agreed
02:23   lulu    sparkes_x: getting bazaar set up
02:24   hornbeck        lulu: I was with the understanding that arch required more than one webserver
02:24   sparkes_x       lulu, ta, makes sence now
02:24   sivang  can we continue with agenda, and discuss technicalities at the end maybe?
02:24   enrico  sivang: I agree
02:25   lulu    hornbeck: ok - shall we say - Action point - contact Rob Collins re: requirements and present pros and cons of options to the team??
02:25   enrico  Let's compress this in Hornbeck is working on setting up a VCS for the docteam to use for larger documents
02:25   hornbeck        enrico: yes
02:25   enrico  Enrico is happy to help hornbeck
02:25   sivang  Let have some more team memebers tell whay they are up into currently, so to finish status item :)
02:26   enrico  I can talk about me
02:26   sivang  ok, as we have several new people here that would be good they know who you are :) go ahead
02:26   enrico  I'm currently half-available, in Brasil for a conference
02:26   asw     lulu, hornbeck: I'm setting up Arch for my own project, please, use me as a resource as well.  
02:27   enrico  I've been appointed at the documentation team secretary and I'm now working on setting up my position on this and to learn how to interact with Canonical
02:27   sivang  enrico is going to be the person to complain too :)
02:27   sivang  to
02:28   enrico  In the EnricoZini wiki page you can find a list of advertised services from the secretary :)
02:28   sivang  ok, I'll go next ?
02:28   enrico  I think that's it.  Questions welcome anytime
02:29   plovs_work      i have been cleaning up the wiki, adding some icons and looking at the FrontPage
=== lulu Lulu is responsible for the Canonical and Ubuntu websites and making sure our Community's needs are met by the site and the wiki. Also - have been working with plovs on the APFrontPage
02:30   sivang  My name is Sivan Green, I started working on the wiki some time ago, and a list of my current activies can be found at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamCurrentWork
02:31   enrico  lulu: do you mean that I've finally found the person to ask things for when I want to interact with Canonical?
02:31   sparkes_x       I am Steve Parkes and I am writing a different book based on the current upstream docs, cos I am a free software zealot too ;-)
02:31   lulu    enrico: fire away!  - All -  Please do not hesitate to be in touch and if I can help you I will.
02:32   sivang  Currently paying special attention to new people who join us, as well as well as devising a more formal plan / page for that matter.
02:33   sivang  anyone else?
02:33   George^Deka     I am George Dekavalas, currently doing nothing been thinking about making the plunge into contributing back and tonight is just the start of it.
02:33   sparkes_x       nice one George^Deka ;-) welcome aboard
=== ChrisH 's real name is Christoph Haas. I'm new to the devel side of Ubuntu. Sent an introduction to ubuntu-devel@ yesterday. I've been maintaining Debian projects like mentors.debian.net before and want to check if there is work for me here. :)
02:33   asw     I am Alexander (Sasha) Wait.  Recently self-apointed free software zealot.  Willing test-subject for community procedures and evangelist for the use of the Ubuntu O/S in science.  I also run an ALife group in Boston and am the new maintainer of the REC.GAMES.COREWAR FAQ.
02:34   enrico  We should have an introduction of everyone now
02:34   lulu    what a team :o)
02:34   sivang  yes, I see some more people here, who hadn
02:35   sivang  n't introduced themselves, for sake of new comers I propose they do :)
02:35   enrico  Do people know of other active people who are not present here or written in the list?
02:35   hornbeck        Ben Edwards dropped out
02:35   sivang  what do you mean dropped out?
02:36   hornbeck        he is no longer on the doc team
02:36   lulu    Do you know why?
02:36   sivang  since when?
02:36   sivang  Was he mailing the list?
02:36   hornbeck        lulu: yes, but he asked me not to say
02:36   hornbeck        he was here first ,meeting and mailing list
02:37   lulu    hornbeck: oh dear. Sorry to hear that. Is there anything we can do to encourage his return?
02:37   hornbeck        lulu: I tried he said he was not interested in being a part anymore
02:37   plovs_work      i wrote to him, not for now he said
02:37   hornbeck        ok, lets try to speed up if we can :-)
02:38   hornbeck        asw: farwell
02:38   sivang  bye asw
02:38   hornbeck        fairwell
02:38   lulu    cheers!
02:38   enrico  asw: bye
02:38   plovs_work      asw: see ya!
02:38   George^Deka     asw: cya
02:39   enrico  Let's move on.  I was thinking about asking people a list of wiki pages they maintain, but it would take time.  Could everyone just list them in their wiki homepages?
02:39   lulu    enrico: tools we are currently using?
02:39   enrico  I know of Wiki and the upcoming version control system for large docs.  And the mailing list.
02:40   hornbeck        enrico: agreed, those are the only ones right now
02:40   lulu    ok - have we got a final decision on the wiki markup language and for the website?
02:40   lulu    for the record?
02:40   enrico  We don't have a specific IRC channel, and I don't usually see IRC chats about the doc team: are there some happening?
02:41   sivang  lulu : I thought we would leave how it's now - everybody can choose whatever he likes
02:41   enrico  lulu: there was the idea of distinguishing between different stages of documents
02:41   hornbeck        irc is happening in -devel
02:41   hornbeck        lulu: I use ReST and moin
02:41   sivang  lulu : I've seen you can choose what format of markup to save
02:41   enrico  hornbeck: thanks.  For the records, there's a lot of traffic in -devel and I don't follow it, so if you see me in and need me, just say my name and I'll see a notice
02:42   hornbeck        enrico: I normally PM you
02:42   hornbeck        :-)
02:42   plovs_work      #ubuntu-doc would not be bad
02:42   hornbeck        agreed
02:42   lulu    ok - perhaps we should have one we recommend - so we can get consistency?
02:43   sivang  let's agree for #ubuntu-doc for all our docdevel discussions, it's been great in serving us till now
02:43   plovs_work      somebody has to find out about channelownership etc
02:43   George^Deka     well in terms of markup to use what do people consider the best to us, for someone who has not edited a wiki before (no tendencies to one or other)
02:43   enrico  [format]  this idea that was around in the list was to use the easiest markup (Moin) for things everyone scraps on, since it has a very low barrier of entry.  Then, if things evolve and need more structure and the people in the page want, it can be refactored in ReST
02:43   enrico  Then eventually it can become a DocBook work if it grows up even more and the team of people that work on it feel like
02:43   plovs_work      enrico, agreed, moin is easy but broken in zwiki, ReST is difficult but (more) complete
02:43   sparkes_x       enrico, the other parts of the site don't support moin so moving to /docs would require new markup
02:44   enrico  (from this recap I'm writing, I see a pattern emerging: "the people active on the page are the ones that decide" :)
02:44   sparkes_x       enrico, that seemst o be the case
02:44   sivang  I think we should be focusing on MoinMoin, really use the wiki is the scrap & sketch area.
02:44   lulu    I had never edited a wiki before joining Canonical - moinmoin was very easy to learn. an should be fully supported by the ZWiki now....
02:45   sivang  offline, full fledged stable docs should be docbook
02:45   enrico  [wiki]  we seem to have an agreement.
02:45   sparkes_x       sivang, agreed
02:45   enrico  Current wiki issues:
02:45   hornbeck        sivang: yes, docbook is a must offline
02:45   enrico  * speed (they're working on it, but nothing short term will happen)
02:45   enrico  * things lacking from Moin (I see TableOfContents often mentioned), is there other things?
02:45   sivang  so we've heared from lulu :-) thanks for your support though
02:46   enrico  sivang: yes, I was recapping lulu message: lulu, sorry for missing the attribution
02:46   enrico  * license of wiki contents
02:46   hornbeck        sivang: I really like ReST on the wiki
02:46   sivang  GPL! GPL! GPL! :)
02:46   sparkes_x       enrico, gpl
02:47   hornbeck        gpl
02:47   sparkes_x       gpl is the best option for upstream
02:47   hornbeck        ChrisH agreed
02:47   sparkes_x       ChrisH, true
02:47   sparkes_x       ChrisH, seconded ;-)
02:48   hornbeck        docbook is for offline docs
02:48   hornbeck        we have agreed on that
02:48   enrico  lulu: jdub told me there was some offline discussion about wiki content license, but I never heard of outcomes
02:48   ChrisH  hornbeck: It can be easily used to create online docs, too.
02:48   hornbeck        ChrisH please send a link
02:48   enrico  lulu: I tried asking twice in the warthogs list but I got no answer
02:48   sparkes_x       ChrisH, don't offend the wiki fans ;-)
02:48   lulu    enrico: Not sure of that myself - I am willing to find out - put e down for that action point.
02:48   enrico  lulu: do you know of anything?
02:48   lulu    and I'll get back to you all
02:48   enrico  lulu: ok.  Here we have an agreement on GPL
02:49   lulu    enrico: ok
02:49   enrico  lulu: if it's ok for them as well, we can proceed and put an explicit notice in the wiki
02:49   George^Deka     I am sure i read somewhere that someone had an issue on using the GPL for docs, but im fine with it
02:49   ChrisH  hornbeck: http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ and http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/
02:49   lulu    enrico: I'd like to have a word with SABDFL on that issue ok?
=== ChrisH can help with providing Docbook-XML templates and Makefiles
02:49   hornbeck        ChrisH: thank you
02:49   enrico  It's important that there are no licensing issues in the wiki, or it would be a big problem when taking things from there into bigger doucments
02:50   sivang  George^Deka : that was for GFDL
02:50   enrico  lulu: ok.  I tried already to talk with sabdfl about it, but with little success.  I hope you're more lucky
02:50   enrico  We're getting to the end of the wiki discussion.  Someone has some missing feature to report?
02:50   lulu    enrico: let's put a wiki page up of what the argument is and concerns raised and I will get a decision ok!?
02:51   sparkes_x       we also need to take into account some parts of the wiki may be imported from elsewhere and have different licences
02:51   George^Deka     sivang: maybe but could have sworn there was also an issue with GPL, because i knew there was the issues with GFDL (non-DFSG)
02:51   enrico  lulu: ok.  my original mail on warthogs can be used as base contents for the page
02:51   lulu    sparkes_x: exactly.
02:51   sivang  George^Deka : would you like to investiage and tell me your conclusions? this might be interesting.
02:51   enrico  lulu: I can take care of creating the page
02:52   lulu    enrico: good. Time is running short - let's move on.
02:52   sivang  what page are we talking about?
02:52   enrico  sivang: a recap on the licensing issue
02:52   sivang  ok
02:52   George^Deka     i will try, now trying to remeber where i saw it (me thinks it was ubuntu related or debian weekly news)
02:52   enrico  Next point is: how to approach new members
02:52   sivang  yes
02:52   sivang  :)
02:53   lulu    sivang: is there an ETA for a draft of the Initiation process so we can contribute wehn it's up there?
02:53   George^Deka     well as far as i can tell as being new for like 8 hours now, having people actually respond to your emails of help helps
02:53   sivang  lulu : I will have one by tommorow
02:53   lulu    sivang: awesome!
02:54   sivang  I would like to see we streamline the way we approach our new comers,
02:54   George^Deka     i have had the issue with moz that they are all two busy to get back to you on if they want your help or not
02:54   hornbeck        George same with mono-doc
02:54   hornbeck        noone wants to help you
02:54   sivang  together with a planned new comers TODO list, learning resources etc.
02:54   enrico  I propose to have a DocTeam Dogma
02:54   enrico  1) All help mails should be answered
02:54   George^Deka     lulu: brillant - can you mail the link cause i might forget otherwise - good place for me to learn
02:55   sivang  bottom line, when someone approaches us and says "I wanna help"
02:55   sivang  he should be able to do so in matter of days, no better ! in matter of hours...:)
02:55   enrico  2) RTFM is not an answer, unless it's nicely put and with a working link to the documentation
02:55   lulu    George^Deka: which link?
02:55   hornbeck        I am sorry everyone for my RTFM reply
02:55   George^Deka     lulu: initiation process
02:55   enrico  hornbeck: Don't worry: it happens
02:56   enrico  hornbeck: there are habits we all carry from other communities
02:56   sivang  no it's ok, We love you John Hornbeck :)
02:56   sladen  hornbeck: ''do this and this and this.  A more detailed overview can be found at <link>''
02:56   hornbeck        yes, I know
02:56   lulu    sivang: could u let the list know where the initiation doc is once it's up there?
02:56   sivang  I would like us to see take up on the spirit of #gnome-love
02:56   sivang  lulu : ofcourse,
02:56   sivang  I would send the link to ML
02:57   George^Deka     enrico: RTFM ?
02:57   hornbeck        read the f**ing manual
02:57   enrico  George^Deka: Read The Fine Manual
02:57   hornbeck        enrico is being nice
02:57   enrico  hornbeck: it's an acronym which has two expansions: one for the writer and one for the reader :)
02:57   George^Deka     i should have known - it is 1am here
02:58   enrico  About always responding to help messages, we have a deadlock problem
02:58   enrico  Many help request don't get answered because everyone thinks someone else will answer
02:58   hornbeck        everyone should answer if they see it first
02:58   hornbeck        if you see it reply
02:58   sivang  yes that is important
02:59   sivang  so new people wouldn't get the feeling it
02:59   sivang  no alie
02:59   sivang  alive
02:59   lulu    enrico: good point to have one person who is ultimately responsible? - sivang - do you want to answer these?
02:59   enrico  hornbeck: good.  third dogma
02:59   sivang  (i can't type today, or anyday)
02:59   enrico  3) If you see it, reply
02:59   George^Deka     As far as i am concerned the more replies the better, it makes you feel really wanted and that people are there to help you out.
02:59   sivang  lulu : I will
02:59   plovs_work      new people should go to the mailing-list or #ubuntu-doc
02:59   enrico  George^Deka: very good point!
03:00   plovs_work      we should be nice and then point them there
03:00   enrico  George^Deka: usually one thinks duplicate replies should be avoided because they generate unnecessary traffic, but this is an artefact from when we had 9.6Kbps modems.  We should get past it!
03:00   George^Deka     one issue i did have today was there is no link from ubuntu mail-list page to the -doc ML - had to find it in a post from -users
03:00   sladen  plovs_work: would inviting people to #ubuntu-help be more useful than clouding your documentation-discussion channel?
03:00   enrico  Dogma 4
03:00   lulu    George^Deka: yes - but we need to have someone ultimately responsible.
03:01   enrico  4) Don't worry about duplicate replies
03:01   George^Deka     enrico: well thats what newbies are for
03:01   lulu    I am responsible for answering the info and webmaster emails and that has been a comment from most people - we always get back to people and it's a highlight for us - I think it's very important to be a responsive distro.
03:01   plovs_work      sladen, if they want help with doc-stuff they are welcome, not for general help
03:01   sladen  plovs_work: nod, sorry, missed that bit
03:01   George^Deka     lulu: but it took me a while to get to it so i could even join, if i wasn't persitant enough to find the archives i would have not been here tonight cause i didnt know it was happening
03:02   enrico  George^Deka: please if you see
03:02   plovs_work      we need one person who is responsible for those kind of things, helping newbies, newbie-docs etc
03:02   enrico  George^Deka: please if you see other issues like that, write a mail to the list: you're raising very valuable issues we were not able to see
03:03   enrico  plovs_work: sivan offered, if I'm not mistaken
03:03   George^Deka     enrico: sure will thought i would bring it here if i could anyway, another issue i had to guess it was on freenode
03:03   sivang  I think having a dedicated person for this task would be great, I am willing to voulenteer for that, but even so having other community memebers responsible for that would make a nice redundency in case I can't make it once in a while.
03:03   plovs_work      enrico, thanks
03:03   lulu    George^Deka: good point  and sivan: thanks - I think that's a good call.
03:03   enrico  sivang: yes, there could be a welcome team
03:03   plovs_work      sivang, you'll do fine
03:04   enrico  I'm happy to be in the welcome team
03:04   enrico  Welcome team: sivang, enrico
03:04   sivang  great
03:04   lulu    done! What's next?
03:04   enrico  Next point: offline documentation
03:04   hornbeck        yes, I was about to type that
03:04   enrico  Do we agree on docbook?  Yes.
03:04   enrico  Next point:
03:05   hornbeck        yes
03:05   enrico  :)
03:05   hornbeck        we HAVE to start writing this stuff
03:05   hornbeck        and decideing what is being brought over from debian
03:05   hornbeck        and gnome
03:05   sivang  I would  like to see one goal we set up -
03:05   enrico  Conversion strategies between different formats: should we discuss it now or just tackle it when the problem shows up?
03:06   enrico  I propose to use the ancient philosophy "first get to do it, then document it, then automate it"
03:06   sivang  I am ok with postponing it for when the problem shows up
03:06   George^Deka     or leave it to next meeting
03:06   sivang  yes it would be wise :) I wonder what brought me to put it htere in the first place...
03:06   enrico  Next point, then
03:06   enrico  License (again)
03:06   sivang  GPL! GPL! GPL! :)
03:06   enrico  I would #include <what said before>
03:07   hornbeck        are we going to fix debian docs?
03:07   hornbeck        I am now on the debian-doc list and they are very outdated
03:07   enrico  Do we need licensing differences between wiki and docbook documents?
03:07   sivang  I don't think so
03:07   lulu    hornbeck: and make them ubuntu-docs?
03:07   plovs_work      we need a page, stating what docbook docs we need, i for one have no idea
03:07   hornbeck        lulu: yes
03:07   lulu    hornbeck: I like your thinking :o)
03:08   hornbeck        I really would like to see alot of offline stuff for hoary
03:08   hornbeck        I like the wiki but it is not a solid doc base
03:08   sivang  I would like to raise up one goal for hoary, to pollish up already exisitng docs and especilly improving GNOME docs to include Ubuntu's quircks and differences from stock
03:08   lulu    sivang: add it to the wiki under HoaryHedgehog
03:08   George^Deka     I was thinking about it today, we need the wiki offline so it can just be used as help, with all the FAQ's etc i have been seeing around
03:09   hornbeck        gnome2-user-doc will be the first thing in the new server
03:09   sivang  lulu : ok, I will
03:09   George^Deka     So it might be a case of converting it (wiki) to docbook
03:09   enrico  If we get really good, we could do like de devels do with code: make patches and apply them to future versions of documents
03:09   sivang  this is what I have in mind
03:09   sparkes_x       wtf I thought I was the only person who cared about debian-docs ;-)
03:09   enrico  But we can thing about that when we get really good
03:10   lulu    George^Deka: we have a Help Centre in Plone, called Documentation, where we are hoping all FAQs, HowTos and books will sit.
03:10   hornbeck        enrico: I have already begun talking to debian-doc guys about how I submit patches
03:10   sivang  lulu : I would like also to have some of it compiled and to be installed in an ubuntusystem out the box, and be browseable through yelp
03:10   George^Deka     lulu: granted, i still havent kicked debian and kde off this box yet. It will happen soon though
03:11   sivang  lulu : that is the markup that is used for that section on the main site?
03:11   enrico  hornbeck: cool!!
03:11   lulu    sivang: we have a mix of html and structured text currently
03:11   enrico  hornbeck: you mean we could team up with debian doc guys?  That would be AWESOME!  (or OUTSTANDING for the brits)
03:11   sparkes_x       you lot are taking the piss now ;-) when I suggested debian docs everyone barfed
03:11   lulu    sivang: I think structured text is easier for most pepes and will need help converting all pages to it.
03:11   hornbeck        enrico: I posted to their list about helping, they were very happy to have me
03:12   hornbeck        sparkes_x: You are not sexy like me so noone listens :-p
03:12   enrico  hornbeck: you made by day!
03:12   sivang  ChrisH : now here a team of debian who accepts new blood :)
03:12   enrico  hornbeck: you made my day!
03:12   sparkes_x       bollocks to this
03:12   sparkes_x       you lot say one thing and mean another
03:13   sparkes_x       we argued about debian docs for a week and everyone was against the idea
03:13   hornbeck        sparkes: I hope you are joking
03:13   enrico  sparkes_x: I wasn't
03:13   sparkes_x       and now everyone is for the idea
03:13   sparkes_x       enrico, true
03:13   sivang  lulu : yelp eats DocBook XML, so I guess we might use the conversion script and see what results we can have in yelp
03:13   sparkes_x       but everyone else (mostly) was
03:13   hornbeck        I don't remember being against debian-docs
03:13   hornbeck        I may have been
03:13   hornbeck        who knows
03:13   sivang  I surely wasn't against it
03:13   sparkes_x       hornbeck, you where ;-)
03:14   hornbeck        well you made me see the light :-)
03:14   sivang  well, it's all evident on the mailing list archive
03:14   sivang  if anyone cares to proove that, but we're not debian kiddies are we?
03:14   sivang  :)
03:14   lulu    sivang: ok - good. I am looking into Plone ATContentTypes and lingua plone for the site so we can deal with translations - it's going to be a little while tho to get that done.
03:14   hornbeck        I am against most things till someone tells me why it is a good idea
03:14   sparkes_x       hornbeck, debian is always a good idea ;-)
03:14   sivang  hornbeck : I also talked you into it :)
03:14   ChrisH  sivang: sorry, I missed a few lines (coworker interruption). I just read that we agree on Docbook. :)
03:15   sivang  ChrisH : I think we do
03:15   hornbeck        sivang, sparkes, enrico: all of you talked me into it
03:15   hornbeck        ChrisH: yes
03:15   enrico  Ok, I guess we're all happy that we all agree and we don't want to fight just because we do agree, isn't it? :)
03:15   sivang  hahhaha
03:15   sivang  yes
03:15   hornbeck        no I just like to fight
03:15   sivang  hornbeck, I suggest you put up a wiki page "Who wants to fight with me" and see what you can get :)
03:15   enrico  People who like to fight meet at 15:00 UTC in #ubuntu-arena :)
03:15   ChrisH  lol
03:16   George^Deka     lol
03:16   hornbeck        so it is agreed, we will work on converting debian-docs, and send any fixes back to debian
03:16   sivang  yeah!
03:16   enrico  Let's move on: Hoary milestone strategy
03:16   sivang  yes
03:16   sivang  Ok, First thing is to get some pollishing for documentation Hoary is already carrying
03:16   hornbeck        Hoary milestone for me is, get alot of docs
03:16   sivang  for instance, MAN pages
03:16   sivang  isntalled HTML documents
03:17   sivang  GNOME documentation
03:17   sivang  info pages etc etc.
03:17   sparkes_x       man pages are part of the deb
03:17   enrico  hornbeck: you can write man pages in docbook! :)
03:17   enrico  hornbeck: apt-get install docbook-to-man
03:17   hornbeck        I still hate man pages
03:17   hornbeck        they are ugly, and very criptic
03:17   sivang  this might very well benefit other communities we are basin on, debian is one example.
03:18   hornbeck        written by those smart people for smart people
03:18   plovs_work      hornbeck, you should read openbsd man-pages, they are actually nice
03:18   ChrisH  Sorry to get back a step. Which debian docs are supposed to be converted to docbook? Most of them are already in docbook format IIRC.
03:18   sivang  plovs_work : BSD was my other exmaple :)
03:18   George^Deka     well on my old deb system man was the only place i knew to turn other than readme
03:18   hornbeck        ChrisH: convert debian docs to Ubuntu docs
03:18   ChrisH  hornbeck: s/Debian/Ubuntu/ ? :)
03:18   sparkes_x       ChrisH, they need to go from sgml to xml and then we start adding ubuntu isms to them
03:18   sivang  make them Ubuntish
03:18   sparkes_x       at least that was my fucking plan all along
03:18   ChrisH  sparkes_x: ic
03:19   sivang  sparkes_x : I am warning you for bad language :)
03:19   hornbeck        sparkes_x: you are a angry little man
03:19   sivang  watch it, hornbeck, enrico help!! :))
03:19   sparkes_x       I resign from my post on the doc team, too many people argueing a lost cause and then changing their position
03:19   sladen  sparkes_x: ;-)
03:19   sparkes_x       so bye bye and enjoy the doc team without me
03:20   hornbeck        what?
03:20   enrico  Ehi, people, cool down.
03:20   hornbeck        hmmm
03:20   sladen  sparkes_x: oops, I was replying to your previous comment then...
03:20   hornbeck        if that was my fault I am sorry
03:20   sparkes hornbeck: no worries see you later
03:20   hornbeck        I thought he was joking
03:21   enrico  ?
03:22   enrico  I propose we move on at talk with sparkes later
03:22   ChrisH  Someone please press F1.
03:22   George^Deka     ChrisH: i did
03:23   enrico  We were on Hoary milestones
03:23   lulu    enrico: that's a good idea - mediation is needed :o)
03:23   plovs_work      enrico, can we have a DocteamHoaryMileston page?
03:23   enrico  I don't know how many milestones we can setup now, though
03:23   plovs_work      make a pgae with priorities
03:23   hornbeck        the Ubuntu book is a huge milestone
03:23   sivang  enrico : agreed. I got a headache
03:24   George^Deka     well looking at the hoarygoals page today i noticed under the targets of opportunity there seems to be a bit of stuff doc related the devs want, some of it even says bounty next to it
03:24   plovs_work      hornbeck, and only, what, 4 months left
03:24   enrico  I propose we get going writing the documentation we like to write, then reschedule a milestone meeting in a month or so
03:24   enrico  plovs_work: 4 months?  Uhm... then in a couple of weeks
03:24   hornbeck        enrico: agreed
03:24   enrico  Next point: Start working
03:25   plovs_work      enrico, why don't you make a proposal, you are good at those
03:25   lulu    sivang was going to put up a page in HoaryHedgehog - let's get our goals on there and prioritise what we need to get done for Hoary.
03:25   enrico  plovs_work: you mean, for Hoary milestones?  Ok.  I can work on something
03:26   George^Deka     do we know what the devs/cannonical want in the way of docs for hoary
03:27   enrico  George^Deka: one problem with the devs is that they're goign to stabilize the feature list quite late
03:27   sivang  yes, it would be nice to get an idea what they might require, before we set off to do docs of our own when big parts of already shipped software needs documented.
03:28   lulu    George^Deka: Can u ask on the dev list as our representative? point them to the doc page in hoaryhedgehog and they can help prioritise and add what they tyhink is needed.
03:28   George^Deka     enrico: true but some docs they might wish may not be so easy - especially if alot of it is from scratch
03:28   hornbeck        enrico: saunm, complains of that alot
03:28   hornbeck        shaunm
03:29   lulu    George^Deka: and then the doc team can say what is possible to meet the Hoary deadline?
03:29   George^Deka     lulu: sure ill do that, better join the list then - enrico just make sure you summarize what im doing its 1:30am here now
03:29   enrico  George^Deka: summarize what you're doing?
03:30   lulu    enrico: if we can have minutes of the meeting with action points, deadline and who is responsible on the wiki - that would be awesome.
03:30   enrico  lulu: sure: it's my job to make a resume of this meeting
03:30   sivang  enrico : and please do remind me all of the things I promised to do today, so I won't forget? :)
03:30   George^Deka     enrico: lulu sumed it up for me
03:30   enrico  I'm now a bit slow in answering because I have a very loud brasilian television set right next to me
03:31   enrico  sivang: sure
03:31   sivang  enrico : after all, this is the secretary cow speaking :)
03:32   enrico  Uhm... di we still have things to discuss?
03:32   lulu    yes!
03:32   enrico  The "Start working" issue?
03:32   enrico  Unfortunately, it's not my house
03:32   lulu    guys - FrontPage - plovs has worked hard on this - we've pretty much incorporated the old front page into APFrontPage.
03:33   hornbeck        I say APFrontPage be moved up
03:33   lulu    can all check it and approve/advise on changes so we can make it the Canonical FronPage? :o)
03:33   lulu    FrontPage that is!
03:33   sivang  Would it be ok to agree now on the front page and them make modifications / comments ?
03:34   sivang  lulu : you mena this is going to be the new wiki frontpage ?
03:34   hornbeck        it looks great to me
03:34   lulu    sivang: yup! that's the plan - as a good starting point......
03:35   hornbeck        good job plovs, lulu
03:35   enrico  Fine for me
03:35   sivang  and tanks AP for the good work
03:36   lulu    enrico: yes indeedy
03:36   enrico  Ok, last point is start working
03:36   lulu    plovs_work: ping!
03:36   plovs_work      lulu, :-)
03:37   lulu    plovs_work: we just wanted to say thanks for your hard work and we can make the page the new FrontPage!
03:37   sivang  Maybe a milestone for hoary plan was too harsh,
03:37   sivang  what about discussing close goals?
03:38   hornbeck        I thought we would meet again about hoary goals?
03:39   lulu    sivang: we have a To Do list on the wiki  - close goals should go on there - Hoary can go on there - perhaps we need to make this a table with person responsible and deadline dates. - http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiToDo
03:39   enrico  hornbeck: yes.
03:39   sivang  ok
03:39   enrico  I'd say let's have some minutes for people to post items not in agenda, then close the meeting.
03:39   hornbeck        Well I will be compiling the book into its order of the next couple weeks and calling on people to help in areas
03:40   hornbeck        I will also start looking at debian docs that could help us and updating them to current
03:41   sivang  is anybody keen to take up some work on pollishing documentation that already ships with Ubuntu?
03:41   enrico  sivang: That can do together with the Debian teem
03:42   George^Deka     well i may have a try at a fx doc as i mentioned on mailing list. But what else needs doing cause i dont have any doc work yet
03:42   enrico  adding/fixing manpages and other doucmentation inside packages
03:42   sivang  ok, and what about gnome-user-docs ?
03:43   sivang  this is more than merely the user manual
03:44   lulu    do you have a WartyWarthogDoc page where all the tasks are listed - what docs need work? then people can methodically go through them and take responsibility for what they are keen to do?
03:44   sivang  lulu : good idea :)
03:44   sivang  lulu : I had something similar on the /UDP pages,
03:45   sivang  lulu : I will break things down and try put them in the relavent places for HOary
03:45   sivang  I might need some help with that , though
03:45   lulu    sivang: great - then each release can have it's goals set out by the doc team and the dev team can collaborate with doc team on it.
03:45   sivang  yes
03:45   sivang  enrico : what do you think?
03:45   hornbeck        lulu: great idea
03:46   lulu    great!  guys I have to go in 5 - are we almost done?
03:47   sivang  seems so
03:47   hornbeck        same, here: work is calling
03:47   sivang  enrico ?
03:47   enrico  sure
03:47   lulu    enrico: thanks very much!
03:47   enrico  I declare the meeting finished, then.  I will post the summary in the ubuntu-doc list as soon as I have it
03:47   enrico  The Holy Cow moos
03:47   hornbeck        enrico: thanks
03:48   hornbeck        thanks everyone, great meeting
03:48   lulu    :o) thanks all! Great to meet u guys.
03:48   plovs_work      ok, thanks all!
03:48   George^Deka     now its time for bed :P
03:48   sivang  thank you everybody
03:48   sivang  night George^Deka
03:48   sivang  lamont_r : we have just ajorned
03:48   sivang  :)
03:49   enrico  Thanks everyone for attending, look forward to the oncoming work!
03:49   lamont_r        sivang: 's ok.
03:50   hornbeck        well I am off to work
03:50   hornbeck        goodbye for now
03:51   plovs_work      see you all in #ubuntu-doc !
03:51   lulu    enrico: will u talk to sparkes asap? it would be a shame to have him go
03:51   enrico  lulu: yes, I'll see what I can do
03:51   George^Deka     did you see his resignation mail
03:51   ChrisH  lulu: he has already posted on -doc. :(
03:51   enrico  oh
03:52   ChrisH  I wasn't sure whether it was a joke. Obviously he was serious about it.
03:52   lulu    ChrisH: oh dear - he must've been very cheesed off....
03:52   sivang  yes
03:53   sivang  I reckon he didn't take so good the jokes me and horbeck made on account of the debian works
03:53   sivang  I mean, he eventually said it was due to lack of time
03:53   sivang  but..
03:55   sivang  I just dind't understand why he said "everybody" where against his plans, I never said something against working up debiand docs
03:55   ChrisH  Is he the "interface person" regarding the interchange of documentation between Debian and Ubuntu?
03:56   sivang  I think that is George^Deka
03:57   plovs_work      ChrisH, enrico is the interface, most of the time
03:57   sivang  if I recall right the backlog
03:57   sivang  at least he said he voulneteers for that
03:58   plovs_work      that is right
04:02   plovs_work      so guys, maybe you can start looking at the FrontPage, and flame away (in the mailinglist)


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MeetingLog/Ubuntu/2004-11-15 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:19:23 by localhost)