#Ubuntu-Meeting

Ubuntu-Meeting Log 2004-12-22

10:21   jdub    hola!
10:21   Treenaks        jdub: well, start typing ;)
10:21   ajmitch_        morning
10:22   crimsun moin
10:24   jdub    introduction from mark
10:24   jdub    mark is introducing carlos
10:24   jdub    WELCOME! :)
10:24   jdub    greatful for ubuntu meeting presentation in mataro
10:24   ctd     Hello to jdub!
10:25   jdub    commitment to free software from government
10:25   jdub    laid down one year ago
10:25   jdub    by three parties in catalonia
10:25   jdub    facing a challenge of supporting this commitment
10:25   jdub    beginning a process of migration
10:25   jdub    to be applied throughout catalan government
10:25   jdub    clear and decisive commitment to rights of users to choose their software
10:26   jdub    commitment to catalan language, documentation in language
10:26   jdub    free software is a unique opportunity for catalan culture and language
10:27   jdub    catalonia interested in cutting edge technology, distribution and sharing - ubuntu is thus, important
10:27   jdub    'sharing knowledge in the information society is the same as sharing wealth'
10:27   jdub    power is less concentrated
10:27   jdub    gratitude to canonical for coming to mataro, for open sessions and opportunity for debian users and local developers
10:28   jdub    thanks to mark shuttleworth for commitment to ubuntu, hispalinux and technocampus
10:28   jdub    government and university working together to support the conference
10:28   jdub    i wish you all a happy stay and many thanks
10:28   jdub    (applause)
10:29   jdub    mark: it is as important for us to work with local developers, as it is for local developers to work with a project that is global in scope
10:29   jdub    look forward to a world where cultures can use technology within their culture
10:29   jdub    phenomenal week
10:29   jdub    the ubuntu team gets together every four months
10:29   jdub    much participation from local developers
10:30   jdub    thank you to alfonso for working with us
10:30   jdub    mark and alfonso will be facilitating discussion about shared code, shared distribution
10:30   jdub    collaboration within spain and around the world
10:30   jdub    today we're talking about the platform for that collaboration
10:30   jdub    alfonso:
10:31   jdub    second version of guadalinex released a couple of months ago
10:31   jdub    sponsored by andalucia
10:31   jdub    based on linex from extremadura
10:32   jdub    used by 100,000 computers at schools and libraries
10:32   jdub    contact with all kinds of users
10:32   jdub    provide technical and non-technical support
10:32   jdub    good understanding of the needs of normal people
10:33   jdub    problems -> needing a human oriented interface and developer issues, debian release, deriving
10:33   jdub    a lot of local governments, making their own distributions (or planning to)
10:33   jdub    not enough communicaiton
10:34   jdub    lots of duplication
10:34   jdub    need to delegate problem solving
10:34   jdub    need a place to work together
10:34   jdub    and a list of needs and problems, who is in charge of them
10:35   jdub    a wishlist for developers and users
10:35   jdub    mark:
10:35   jdub    two extensions to launchpad we are working on
10:36   jdub    distributed user support tool
10:36   jdub    project management tool
10:36   jdub    alfonso:
10:36   jdub    we use normal mail, database of users, not enough for the problems we have
10:37   jdub    mark:
10:37   jdub    i am south african, my catalan is terrible, spanish is even worse
10:37   jdub    jordi mallach to help with catalan translation
10:37   jdub    javier explains in spanish
10:37   jdub    obviously made good jokes
10:37   jdub    :-)
10:38   jdub    how many representatives of distributions do we have?
10:38   jdub    debian
10:38   jdub    ubuntu
10:38   jdub    guadalinex
10:38   jdub    lurix
10:38   jdub    catix
10:38   jdub    metadistros
10:39   jdub    lux
10:39   jdub    no name embedded distro :)
10:40   jdub    we share 95% of code?
10:40   jdub    (exasperated looks from everyone)
10:40   jdub    let's gather ideas for challenges we've had
10:40   jdub    brainstorm to find ways to solve htem
10:40   jdub    (javier explains in spanish)
10:41   jdub    * bugs
10:41   jdub    * translations
10:41   jdub    many languages supported by spanish distros
10:42   jdub    * better mechanism for collaborating in marketing, support and self-support
10:43   jdub    need to make supporting the distros scale
10:43   jdub    with os x and windows, you speak to your friends
10:43   jdub    hard to find right person to talk to about distributions, software, etc.
10:44   jdub    mark asked javier to translate suggestion
10:44   jdub    speaker translated it himself
10:44   jdub    much laughter :)
10:45   jdub    mark asks javier if the translation was right
10:45   jdub    much laughter :)
10:45   jdub    support has to scale from derivation to derivation to debian
10:45   jdub    building a hierarchy of support
10:45   jdub    from local distro to upstream
10:46   jdub    mark: how would we deal with large changes
10:47   jdub    we as developers know what is an ubuntu thing, what is a debian thing, what is an upstream thing
10:47   jdub    users don't know
10:47   jdub    need to start requests at local distro
ajmitch_ starts organising his list of requests :)
10:48   jdub    "maybe we could write a front-end to all the bug systems?"
10:48   jdub    (everyone who has seen malone laughs)
10:48   jdub    (mark suggests the malone team leader writes that)
10:49   jdub    (for everyone in ubuntu-meeting -> malone is exactly that!)
10:50   jdub    normal users don't use bug tracking system
10:50   jdub    if they do, they put support requests in it
10:53   jdub    how do we share bugs like this?
10:53   crimsun regarding large changes and denoting the origin of those changes: perhaps that could be done with special tags in the package's Changelog? Since Ubuntu-modified packages normally use a "ubuntu#" suffix, maybe extend cdbs .mks or debhelper to automatically tag ubuntu-local changes? This could be scaled for each distro in the "hierarchy"
10:54   jdub    (crimsun: we had a bof about this yesterday, that was one of the suggestions)
10:54   crimsun (ah, ok)
10:54   jdub    (crimsun: hopefully have the notes out in the wiki today, because it was *really* interesting)
10:54   ajmitch_        jdub: quick q, is security on the agenda for this meeting?
10:54   jdub    ajmitch_: not really
10:55   jdub    ajmitch_: this is about collboration between distros
10:55   mako    ajmitch_: it can be.. in so far as it's a problem that people share and that it may be a space of collaboration
10:55   ajmitch_        ok
10:55   ajmitch_        I was just wanting to ask about selinux integration
10:55   mako    ajmitch_: the last session is going to be pretty discussion-based and user-specified
10:55   ajmitch_        as I'm wanting to work on some of that with debian
ajmitch_ will wait
10:55   jdub    * version differences
10:56   mako    ajmitch_: yeah, we're taling about deriviting distributions.. problems and convergence issues
10:56   jdub    upstream works on head
10:56   jdub    distros ship releases
10:56   jdub    sometimes we want different versions, but we definitely focus on different versions of the software
10:57   jdub    (translation and discussion in spanish)
10:58   jdub    * Source code management
10:58   jdub    changing the code, patch management, watching upstream and the distro you derive from
10:58   jdub    * Package selection
10:58   jdub    * Configuration and branding
10:59   jdub    don't need to work on code management if you are just doing configuration and branding changes, but you end up with most of the work!
11:01   jdub    (#: if you guys want to pipe up, just say stuff :-)
11:01   ajmitch_        :)
ajmitch_ is interested in this as a deb package maintainer
11:01   jdub    talking about many branding/configuration changes, across many packages, how do we get a list?
11:02   jdub    ubuntu has a list
11:04   jdub    lots of discussion about configuration/branding changes
11:05   jdub    federico mena from gnome linked ubuntu list in wiki
11:05   jdub    gnome is interested in making it easier
11:08   wood1   Hello Everybody
11:08   jdub    what desktop does the 'ex' distribution use?
11:08   jdub    "of course, it is gnome!"
11:08   wood1   Good to be at this meeting
11:09   jdub    lots of discussion about 'do we want to converge on one solution' or 'should we have different but collaborating systems'
11:09   jdub    lots of agreement that there is good reason to do things differently
11:10   jdub    but also to work together
11:10   jdub    users want different things
11:10   wood1   Well I want Ubuntu to support PC Clustering using openMosix
11:10   jdub    wood1: the meeting is in person, this is an irc simulcast
11:11   jdub    (wood1: also, you should do some hacking on it!)
11:12   wood1   Well can I do that in Ubuntu. I checked out but found that openMosix supports only kernel 2.4.24
11:13   wood1   Do I get support for kernel 2.6.8.1-3 in openMosix
11:13   jdub    (discussion about users getting mad at differences between systems)
11:13   jdub    (wood1: please take those to #ubuntu, this is a meeting simulcast)
11:13   wood1   Ok I understand
11:14   wood1   Well what do you mean users getting mad at differences between systems ?
11:14   jdub    discussion about users needing things in the same place...
11:14   mako    wood1: frusteration about how things are inconsistent
11:14   jdub    (more translation)
11:15   wood1   You mean in Ubuntu ?
11:15   jblack  wood1: A simulcast is a one way sort of thing. :)
11:15   jdub    wood1: please take questions not directed to the meeting to #ubuntu
11:15   jdub    if there are questions or comments for the meeting, here is fine
11:15   jdub    but not general discussion here
11:17   jdub    we'll find success, finding balance between consistency and innovation
11:17   jdub    new point, finally :-)
11:17   jdub    * Human resource management for distributions
11:17   jdub    how to find a rallying point
11:18   jdub    not wanting to waste people's time
11:18   mako    i <3 bradb's accent
11:18   jdub    (brad is canadian)
11:18   jdub    hrm, skipping back to previous point
11:19   jdub    windows standardisation has flattened local talent
11:19   jdub    made it *harder* to support
11:19   jdub    ...
11:19   jdub    we have a good list
11:19   mako    or at least to support locally
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11:19   jdub    (translation)
11:20   jdub    * Standard installer
11:21   jdub    * Automatic generation of the installer, livecd, etc.
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11:23   jdub    * Enterprise support
11:24   jdub    LSC brought up
11:24   jdub    mandrake, progeny, etc.
11:25   jdub    (LCC)
11:26   jdub    standards vs. same software for certification
11:27   jdub    never has been a successful standard via consortium
11:27   jdub    oracle certify to a very particular thing -> platform and version
11:28   jdub    certification means not changing anything
11:29   jdub    alternative to that problem is red hat's way -> innovation platform, enterprise platform
11:29   jdub    back to installer -> users don't understand partitioning
11:30   KragenSitaker   thanks for simulcasting, jdub
11:30   jdub    "would you trust your mum's computer to ntfsresize?"
11:30   koke    no
11:31   jdub    guadalinex working on gparted to have a partition magic equivalent
11:32   jdub    called neighbour -> "if you have a problem with your partition, you call your neighbour"
11:32   jdub    (translation)
11:32   jdub    (there is a fair bit of miscellaneous discussion points i'm skipping, mainly concentrating on the big points)
11:34   jdub    * Distribution creation tools
11:35   jdub    design proposed for debian-custom yesterday
11:35   jdub    but much interest in the tools that canonical is working on
11:36   lamont_r        jdub: want me to see if I can fix that for you.?
11:36   jdub    (lamont_r: 'sok for now)
11:36   jdub    (#: my power cable fell out)
11:36   lamont_r        dunno if there are any short extension cords...
11:37   jdub    we don't want to lose changes people want to make to packages and configuration
11:38   jdub    time for a summary...
11:38   jdub    derivation was a key part of the plan for what we wanted to create with ubuntu
11:39   jdub    we need to scale the bug reporting infrastructure across distros and upstream
11:39   jdub    upstream won't be able to handle AOL users :-)
11:40   jdub    distros see bugs differently
11:40   jdub    some are grave for debian, but irrelevant for guadalinex, etc.
11:41   jdub    not a lot of work done among the spanish distributions about bug tracking problems
11:43   jdub    (discussion about how they're handling bugs)
11:43   jdub    this is why ubuntu has six month releases
11:43   jdub    gives the open source community a platform to build on
11:44   jdub    known delivery points, etc.
11:44   jdub    not just bugs from users of our distros
11:44   jdub    bugs also come in from upstream
11:44   jdub    we are at the front line, fixing these problems
11:45   mako    josh says that one thing that might work well is an RSS feed that exports the list of bugs and where they belong to allow people to work with each other
11:46   mako    guadalinux has a good model that we can learn from
11:46   mako    they have people without a lot of technical skills that can work with other more skilled people to help report and filter bugs
11:46   mako    this filtered list of bugs will be usful to share
11:47   mako    mdz says that bugs and support can often be collasped in many distribution but they are really not the same  ething
11:48   mako    closing bugs for users that have submitted requests
11:49   mako    confusing bugs and support requests takes up a lot of time
11:49   jdub    hard to go looking for fixes in other distros
11:53   mako    now there is a demo of a canonical tool called malone which is a bug tracking system with some inter-package and inter distro and intro-version stuff
11:53   jdub    (#: malone is AMAZING)
11:54   jdub    there's links between bug tracking systems like debbugs and bugzilla
11:54   jdub    you can see bugs per package, product, version
11:54   mako    inter-* bug tracking
11:54   mako    OMG
11:54   jdub    ;-)
11:55   jdub    not really designed for end users
11:55   jdub    this is the bug tracker
11:55   jdub    there should be something else for collaborative technical support
11:56   Q-FUNK  ouch
11:56   jdub    this is being worked on atm, but not ready for demonstration
11:56   jdub    also done work on a similar tool for translations
11:57   jdub    which is the main topic for the next discussion after the break
11:57   jdub    it is called rosetta
11:57   jdub    the idea behind rosetta is to help people from local communities to do translations on the web
11:57   Simira  and we like it :)
11:57   jdub    it detects where you are from (geoip)
11:57   jdub    and what languages are configured in your browser
11:58   jdub    and displays the languages that are of interest to you
11:58   jdub    we hope upstreams are very interested in this tool
11:58   jdub    very good for application translation
11:58   jdub    not great for documentation translation - that's different problem
11:59   jdub    want to work out how best to collaborate on documentation, man pages, etc.
11:59   jdub    much discussion to be had in the next session :-)
12:00   jdub    (some discussion about training)
12:00   jdub    (after talking about the support problem vs. bugs)
12:01   jdub    okay
12:01   jdub    we are having a break now
12:02   jdub    i will be back soon :)
12:02   ajmitch_        good work, jdub  :)
12:05   mako    jdub: yes, thanks
12:05   jdub    (phew!)
12:05   ajmitch_        fingers tired yet?
12:05   jdub    yeah
12:06   ajmitch_        jdub: during the break.. suggestions on how to go about getting selinux work done in ubuntu? email proposals to ubuntu dev list?
12:07   ajmitch_        since it'd require some patched packages
ajmitch_ is wanting to work on it, rather than just ask others to
12:09   jdub    ajmitch_: yeah
12:09   jdub    ajmitch_: i think ultimately it would be better to work on the really core stuff in a derivation
12:09   jdub    ajmitch_: but selinux patches for other stuff is fine -> gdm already supports it, etc.
12:10   ajmitch_        yeah, debian will hopefully support it after sarge
12:10   ajmitch_        as it will require libselinux1 going into base
12:10   ajmitch_        most of the package maintainers are happy with the patches
12:11   ajmitch_        I'll look into howto derive from ubuntu :)
12:22   ajmitch_        aha, that was easy to find
12:32   jdub    okay
12:32   jdub    we're starting the next session
12:32   jdub    jordi mallach and steve alexander talking about rosetta
12:32   jdub    we're doing the translation in two or three languages
12:32   ajmitch_        great, jordi :)
12:32   jdub    there will be a translation demo
12:33   jdub    but first, some discussion about the problems with translation
12:33   jdub    in open source
12:33   jdub    there are slides
12:33   jdub    jordi is speaking in catalan
12:33   jdub    (#: jordi is a member of the catalan independence army)
12:34   Simira  :D
12:34   jdub    (#: i am joking, of course)
12:34   jdub    software is usually written in english, but we want to use it in the language we speak
12:34   jdub    and write :)
Simira  prefer not
12:35   jdub    people who could do translations have a very hard time helping, the tools are not good for them
12:35   jdub    you have to understand complex tools
12:35   jdub    pot, po, cvs, svn, gettext
12:36   jdub    steve's father speaks/writes chinese
12:36   jdub    would love to help
12:36   jdub    but can't, because the tools are too difficult for him
12:36   jdub    the culture and language of programmers is not always friendly in a way that outsiders understand
12:36   jdub    you almost have to become a programmer to understand the tools
12:37   jdub    (#: jordi's catalan description takes much longer than steve's english description...)
12:37   jdub    there are barriers to actually get your translation into the software
12:37   jdub    both technical and social
12:38   jdub    you have to co-ordinate with releases
12:38   jdub    which can be hard between the developer and the translator
12:38   jdub    it is also hard for software authors, because they have to co-ordinate the many people who want to translate the software
12:38   jdub    when users see something wrong, how do they know who to speak to to fix it?
12:39   jdub    so, rosetta!
12:39   jdub    canonical has sponsored rosetta
12:39   jdub    it helps translators create translations and makes it easy for them
12:39   jdub    it is a web interface
12:39   jdub    it provides a global view on the state of translation
12:39   jdub    many projects, all languages
12:40   jdub    shows what is translated and what needs translating
12:40   jdub    we hope rosetta will bring authors, translators and user together, better than they are now
12:40   jdub    jordi is going to demonstrate rosetta by translating a small application
12:41   jdub    jordi is making the font in his web browser bigger
12:41   ajmitch_        live demos are always tricky
12:43   jdub    we are switching computers for the demo...
12:43   jdub    there is a back up computer ;-)
12:43   jdub    jordi's machine is falling to pieces
12:43   jdub    donations welcome
12:43   jdub    ;-)
=== jdub fills time by making jokes
12:43   jdub    dum de dum
12:44   jdub    jordi is searching for a program
12:45   jdub    he searches for 'hello', finds gnome-hello
12:45   jdub    he is setting up gnome-hello for catalan translation
12:46   jdub    somehow he managed to switch into japanese input mode...
12:46   jdub    demo fun :-)
12:46   jdub    he registers the po template
12:47   jdub    gnome-hello is not translated at all into spanish or catalan
12:47   jdub    rosetta picks up languages from:
12:47   jdub    - geoip -> the location of the user
12:47   jdub    - the languages set up in the browser
12:47   jdub    - the user's configuration in rosetta itself
12:47   jdub    it is very clever :-)
12:48   jdub    jordi is now translating gnome-hello to catalan
12:48   jdub    there's a list of strings
12:49   jdub    jordi is looking for the right accents... :-)
12:49   jdub    ... translating strings ...
12:49   jdub    ... translating strings ...
12:49   jdub    ... translating strings ...
12:49   jdub    rosetta provides file context help
12:50   jdub    (#: if you guys have questions for jordi and steve, just ask, but i think they prefer questions at the end)
12:51   jdub    (#: but it is quiet while jordi is translating)
12:51   koke    anybody else is ahving problems with the wireless connection here?
12:52   jdub    (#: preferably related to rosetta...)
12:52   jdub    jordi has translated 30% of gnome-hello
12:52   jdub    now he is downloading the finished po file
12:52   jdub    the translations can be exported easily
12:52   jdub    this is useful for developers to commit the translations
12:53   jdub    or for translators to see the software running with the translation
12:53   jdub    daf is demonstrating the translation
12:54   jdub    copying the po file over
12:54   jdub    and running gnome-hello with LANG=ca_ES.UTF-8
12:56   jdub    daf displays the po file that was exported
12:57   jdub    (setting up more of the demo)
12:59   jdub    lots of work to be done on the web interface
12:59   jdub    making it easier for translators
01:00   jdub    from next week, you'll be able to use rosetta
01:00   jdub    question about translation memory
01:01   jdub    the infrastructure is there for it, but it has not been implemented yet
01:02   jdub    two ways to get strings into the system for translation:
01:02   jdub    - uploading original pot files -> this is good for small projects
01:02   jdub    - we can sync them directly from the upstream revision control with some of the other tools we're working on
01:02   jdub    that means they'll always be up to date
01:03   jdub    questions from the crowd
01:03   jdub    * do comments in the po file show up in the web interface?
01:03   jdub    yes, this is supported
01:04   jdub    * can you see how other languages have translated the strings, during translation?
01:04   jdub    haven't done that yet, there are some ui issues to solve to make it very nice
01:05   jdub    * does it preserve format string components and check if they've been removed by mistake?
01:05   jdub    that's a great idea
01:05   jdub    we should do that
01:05   jdub    (the latter, that is -> it preserves format strings already..)
01:06   jdub    * with translation memory, different projects use different terms - will rosetta have global and per-project glossaries?
01:07   jdub    we had a request for this, very much related to translation memory features
01:07   jdub    * what about project management integration, for translation review and so on?
01:07   jdub    great idea, we should do that
01:09   jdub    it would be great to have a hierarchy of skilled translators
01:09   jdub    a review tree
01:09   jdub    these kinds of things will come up a lot as people use it
01:09   jdub    we will be very open to suggestions
01:12   jdub    * will it be open source?
01:12   jdub    we want to at some stage
01:12   jdub    it is very integrated into launchpad
01:13   jdub    which is pretty centralised, with integration into revision control and all the other tools
01:13   jdub    so there are benefits to having one central system
01:14   jdub    very convenient for upstreams to have one place to go
01:14   jdub    (#: you guys can ask questions here, you don't have to /msg me :)
01:15   jdub    * does it support formats other than po?
01:15   jdub    not yet, but it will later on
01:15   ctd     Question: Are your hands getting tired yet?
01:15   jdub    tms, xliff, etc.
01:15   jdub    (heh, sort of)
01:16   jdub    * can translators use tools on their own computer?
01:16   jdub    yes, they can use emacs and so on, but still collaborate within rosetta
01:16   jdub    so you can upload and download po files
01:16   jdub    in the future, there will be an xml-rpc protocol and pygtk application for translation
01:16   jdub    plus you can use the revision control system as well
01:17   lifeless        whoa.
01:17   lifeless        PEOPLE.
01:17   jdub    :)
01:18   ctd     Is it just me who sees people join multiple times?
01:18   ctd     Since it's only been this channel.
01:18   jdub    * can we make it as easy to see the translated application as pressing a button?
01:18   jdub    wow! great idea!
01:18   koke    ctd, it's a matrix failure ;)
01:19   jdub    * can anyone put new projects in rosetta? even non-free?
01:19   jdub    no one's asked that before :-)
01:20   jdub    we have lots to discuss about ownership of translations, copyright, translation memory, etc.
01:21   jdub    * what about spell checking? :)
01:22   jdub    great idea
01:24   jdub    * which new formats are planned?
01:24   jdub    we'd like to do manpages
01:25   jdub    converters from openoffice and mozilla formats to po
01:25   jdub    etc.
01:26   jdub    (discussion about who would like to try it and use it, etc)
01:26   jdub    there is a mailing list
01:27   jdub    rosetta-users
01:27   jdub    http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/rosetta-users
01:28   Treenaks        why are the list archives private?
01:28   Simira  that's new to me. Tell them to put a link to it from the Rosetta web
01:28   jdub    Treenaks: it was a beta list for a while
01:28   jdub    i will ask about it
01:29   jdub    okay, i will fix that up :)
01:35   jdub    done
01:35   jdub    alright
01:35   jdub    having a break
01:35   jdub    between sessions
01:35   Treenaks        lunch break? :)
01:35   jdub    will come back soon :-)
01:35   jdub    THIS ROCKS!
01:35   jdub    Treenaks: nah, just a short break
01:36   Tsjoklat        jdub follows the rules behind the logitech keyboard
01:37   Treenaks        Tsjoklat: "According to some experts, the use of any keyboard can induce injury"
01:38   Tsjoklat        Treenaks ja :) and one should take regular breaks
01:41   jdub    NEXT SESSION!
01:41   jdub    mako and ismael olea
01:42   jdub    talking about collaboration and convergence
01:42   jdub    there are so many distros in spain
01:42   jdub    derived from debian
01:42   jdub    in so many regions
01:43   jdub    there is not enough communication and collaboration
01:43   jdub    how can we fix that?
01:43   jdub    there are technical and non-technical/political problems
01:43   jdub    (ismael is translating)
01:44   jdub    at the end we can talk about solutions
01:44   jdub    ideas we might have to make collaboration work
01:45   jdub    political problems
01:46   jdub    * respect for standards and making standards
01:46   jdub    * secrecy!
01:47   jdub    * general communication
01:47   jdub    * "not invented here", wanting to be different
01:48   jdub    * geographical location, hard to meet up
01:48   jdub    and timezones
01:48   Q-FUNK  "not made here" - sounds like Debian all over again.
01:49   jdub    * cultural differences, inability to work around
01:50   jdub    * different deadlines and priorities, technical or not
01:50   Kamion  Q-FUNK: I don't think we were describing our own position there.
01:50   Kamion  Q-FUNK: the comment was in the context of the many distributions in Spain.
01:51   jdub    (#: comments for the meeting here, discussion elsewhere please :)|
01:51   jdub    * different audiences
01:53   jdub    * resources, difference and sharing
01:54   jdub    == Technical Barriers to Convergence ==
01:54   jdub    list from first session is a good starting point for this
01:55   jdub    * compatibility -> infrastructure, applications, etc.
01:56   jdub    * language and communication with developers
01:57   jdub    * duplication of work, lack of visibility
01:58   jdub    people working on same packages in different distros
01:58   jdub    horizontal (regional) distros vs. vertical (thematic) distros
01:59   jdub    * configuration -> 'flavours' (same stuff, different configuration)
01:59   jdub    * different security policies
02:00   jdub    * hardware platforms
02:02   jdub    * no common place to share needs, issues, etc. even between local government distros in spain
02:03   jdub    * branding
02:03   jdub    * delivery methods
02:04   jdub    (we should have an ubuntu punched cards project)
02:04   jdub    dvds, cds, network install, etc.
02:04   jdub    * binary compatibility, releases, common base, etc.
02:05   jdub    * thin clients
02:07   jdub    * old computers (for use with thin clients, or special software needs)
02:09   jdub    * managing large installations
02:10   jdub    * live cds, different installers, etc.
02:12   jdub    * giving back (higher distro or upstream software) or sharing (similar distros)
02:16   jdub    * support live cycle and releases of the distros
02:17   jdub    - software selection
02:17   jdub    - configuration
02:17   jdub    - code changes
02:17   jdub    - installation
02:18   jdub    SOLUTIONS
02:19   jdub    * it's crazy to assume that we can all use the same thing, whether it's debian, ubuntu, red hat, suse, whatever
02:19   jdub    so we have to manage the differences
02:19   jdub    sharing the infrastructure for managing those differences makes sense
02:19   jordi   (woah, and I thought Jeff was sitting in the corner doing his stuff...)
02:20   jdub    CDD proposal -> common way of specifying what you want from your custom distribution
02:20   jdub    common way to select packages
02:20   jdub    common way to configure packages
02:21   jdub    sharing repository, and sharing branches@
02:21   jdub    two models for custom distributions being pushed...
02:21   jdub    low priority debconf questions -> adding the ability to configure the package, and not changing the defaults
02:21   jdub    pre-seeding different answers for configuration differences between distros
02:24   jdub    suggestion to work upstream in debian instead of making new repositories
02:25   jdub    branding-only packages in different repository
02:25   jdub    debian == big repository in the sky
02:26   Q-FUNK  I would simply package pre-seeding files with Ubuntu defaults, but otherwise use standard Debian.
02:27   Q-FUNK  ... + ubuntu-specific file in their own small repository.
02:27   jdub    problem is release timing differences, teamwork problems,
02:30   Q-FUNK  another alternative would be to release only core Ubuntu supported packages, then pin those with a higher priority than Debian.
02:30   jdub    (difficult to summarise comments, if anyone wants to summarise, please say)
02:30   jdub    Q-FUNK: discussion elsewhere please
02:30   Q-FUNK  for any other packages, instead of universe, we'd have regular Debian testing or unstable, pinned at lower priority.
02:30   jordi   jdub: I could try to help
02:31   jdub    one big repository vs. multiple repositories
02:31   Q-FUNK  jdub: where do I feed ideas BACK to the meeting since I'm not there to voice my opiion then?
02:31   jdub    referring to discussion earlier about this - having to manage the differences in priorities and deadlines
02:32   jdub    Q-FUNK: here, those issues have been raised
02:32   jdub    mark:
02:33   jdub    before starting ubuntu, researched how revision control could help solve this problem
02:33   jdub    best solution was arch, now we're working on matching bitkeeper with bazaar
02:33   jdub    matching and exceeding :)
02:33   jdub    starting with arch instead of starting from nothing
02:34   jdub    understanding relationships between different distro versions
02:34   jdub    VERY hard problem
02:34   jdub    right now we don't have a solution to deliver
02:34   jdub    but we're working very hard on these tools
02:34   jdub    hundreds of thousands of lines of changes in debian/ubuntu's X
02:34   jdub    we're not just looking at the differences
02:35   jdub    we're looking at the differences between differences :)
02:35   jdub    not only between debian distros
02:35   jdub    but all distros
02:36   jdub    (#: we're not really talking about very specific technical solutions here, more the broad brush strokes of solutions)
02:36   jdub    discussion of partnership between common distros
02:37   Q-FUNK  jdub: is that aprtnership actually going to ahppen, according to Mark & all?
02:37   jdub    it is a suggestion during brainstorming discussion
02:38   jdub    can spanish distros use same cd, different choices for region
02:38   jdub    requires political coordination
02:38   jordi   which is _very_ difficult
02:38   jdub    (#: mako keeps tripping over the eazel)
02:39   Q-FUNK  jordi: maybe not here, but could you explain what makes it so politically difficult to coordinate and collaborate in Spain?
02:39   jdub    the open source community as a whole can act as that 'central' arbitrator
02:40   jdub    it will grow to solve those problems
02:40   jdub    technical solution of single cd is relatively simple, but the political issues are the hard part there
02:41   jdub    (lots of reference to political differences in spain, which jordi can explain as he is a member of the catalunya independence army)
02:41   jdub    we can create models to allow for horizontal and vertical collaboration
02:42   jdub    coordinating releases and security and so on
02:45   jdub    lots of discussion about common release base and different versions on top per priority
02:45   jdub    ubuntu/kubuntu release cycles vs. single repository
02:45   jdub    (gnome and kde release cycle differences)
02:45   jdub    security in ubuntu
02:46   jdub    malone will help enormously for our security efforts in multiple releases
02:46   jdub    we hope it will be useful for all distros to share information
02:46   jdub    we collaborate with debian for security patches and so on
02:46   jdub    public mailing list 'security-review' for collaboration
02:51   jdub    we are focusing on code a lot, but even small changes like icons are code-like changes
02:52   jdub    but we are probably focusing on the micro problems, not the macro problems
02:53   jdub    how about the live cd model? same base system, different packages on top
02:54   jdub    common base system proposal again
02:56   jdub    how many DDs or NMs? lots of hands :)
03:01   jdub    (phew, sorry, i was talking a bit)
03:02   jdub    talking about debian as an engine room for front-end distros
03:02   jdub    like the way gnome sees itself
03:02   jdub    cultural change to see derivatives as partners, not competition
03:04   jdub    discussion about derivative collaboration is similar to business collaboration
03:04   jdub    ending point
03:04   jdub    wrapping up stuff
03:04   jdub    mark:
03:05   jdub    - this is a fascinating challenge to produce an absolutely free distribution
03:05   jdub    - there will never be a requirement to put 'ubuntu' in a derived distribution
03:05   jdub    - if we're going to do it, we can share the difficult challenges with translations, bugs, etc.
03:06   jdub    - too long we've focused on centralisation, one organisation, etc.
03:06   jdub    - we don't have all the solutions, but this is a great list
03:07   jdub    thank you very much
03:07   jdub    time for lunch :-)
03:07   jdub    applause, sighs of relief, etc.
03:07   jdub    =======
03:07   jdub    that's all
03:08   jdub    that's all from me :-)
03:09   Q-FUNK  thanks for the summary.
03:11   Synek   .part
04:01   koke    hey, there's no broadcast of the lunch?? ;P
08:30   koke    hi all!
08:31   koke    is there any dinner/party planned for tonight??


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