Accessibility_2005-12-21

Summary

Jason Grieves

Henrik Nilsen Omma

  1. Test Testing
    • Please have a look at Accessibility/Testing and give feedback on the general concept and feel free to add more detail
    • If this seems OK to most people, I will post a request for testing volunteers on some mailing lists and forums
  2. Ubuntu Express update
    • Latest plan at UbuntuExpress/GnomeUserInterface/Accessibility

Log

07:59 TheMuso     Hey all.
07:59 dholbach    hellas!
08:00 dholbach    I suppose we'll wait a bit for the others to arrive. :-)
08:00 TheMuso     Yeah.
=== kjcole is Kevin Cole
08:01 kjcole      Hi. ;-)
=== TheMuso checks email while he waits. It is much easier getting up early for something like this.
=== ogra_ [n=ogra@p5089F92C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
08:02 kjcole      Hi ogra.
08:03 linbetwin   hello all!
=== hno73 [n=henrik@henrik.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
08:04 dholbach    hey linbetwin, hno73
08:04 TheMuso     hno73: Just read and replied to your email, thanks
08:04 hno73       hey dholbach
08:05 linbetwin   hello, dholbach!
08:06 sivang      hi all
08:06 sivang      what meeting is that?
08:06 sivang      ah , ally
08:06 sivang      cool
=== sivang is having hard time following the meetings with busy dayjob schedule, sorry
08:07 kjcole      a11y 00ps ;-)  (If you didn't get it, never mind.)
08:08 linbetwin   i always wondered why a11y for accessibility
08:08 kjcole      sivang, I know the feeling.  I just told someone I was attending a meeting but wasn't
                  sure which one.  Just that my alarm said "go". ;-)
08:09 sivang      kjcole: hehe, I need that alarm as well
08:09 dholbach    linbetwin: a<eleven letters>y
08:09 TheMuso     Ok, so I think everybody is here...
08:09 linbetwin   dholbach: thanks
=== dholbach searches the Agenda on the wiki
08:10 dholbach    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
08:11 hno73       Looks like there aren't much in need of deciding, but some good work has been done
                  since last meeting
08:11 dholbach    jgrieves: do you want to start with your items on the agenda?
08:11 dholbach    yeah, and i was impressed with the amount of people signing up on the mailing list
08:11 TheMuso     Cool!
08:11 dholbach    we're more and more taking off :-)
=== crimsun [i=crimsun@pdpc/supporter/silver/crimsun] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
08:12 dholbach    maybe henrik better starts with his items, while we're waiting for jason - does that
                  make sense?
08:13 hno73       yeah, I might have leave early as well
08:13 hno73       Did anyone look at the testing plans?
=== dholbach is honest and has a look *now* :)
=== TheMuso skimmed them.
08:14 hno73       We've ended up slitting it up into very simple tests and then more in-depth reviews
08:14 hno73       Not so much the tests them selves, but this way of doing it
08:14 dholbach    i'd move the legend (explaining v1-v7)  above the table
08:15 TheMuso     dholbach: I agree.
08:15 dholbach    i meant v1-v3, m1-m3
08:16 TheMuso     As for logging in, that is not possible at all AFAIK without setting it up.
08:16 hno73       kjcole: I was thinking about including an h1 for hearing impairments, but I thought
                  that might need to be done in a different way
08:16 TheMuso     It is not as easy as loading gnopernicus etc.
08:16 hno73       kjcole: focusing on educational apps, as you have pointed out
08:17 hno73       TheMuso: so that is one that we can register as a failure straight off
08:17 hno73       also useful
08:17 kjcole      hno73, I confess I haven't had much time to work on a11y stuff, though I did start
                  wikify-ing TheMuso's page (I think it was his).
08:17 TheMuso     kjcole: Which one?
=== TheMuso must start working through some of these and commenting on them.
08:18 hno73       kjcole: but in general you would agree that there isn't a problem of too much use of
                  sound to convey information on the desktop
08:19 hno73       but rather that the issues are more subtle
08:19 kjcole      TheMuso, Hell, if I know. ;-) There was a page saying "Obsolete.  Please put [URL]  in
                  the wiki."
08:19 hno73       I think that was Jason's page
08:20 kjcole      TheMuso: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Documentation
08:20 TheMuso     Yeah that was Jason's. I just put it up somewhere so others could have a look at it.
08:20 kjcole      TheMuso: From
                  http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility/GNOME_Accessibility_Overview_For_Ubuntu.txt
08:21 TheMuso     Yeah not mine.
08:21 hno73       Basically I guess the exact nature of the tests ins not that important. we need to
                  start doing testing and then filing bugs
08:21 dholbach    yeah
08:22 dholbach    and i think your page is a good start
08:22 hno73       including to upstreams like OpenOffice and Firefox
08:22 hno73       I think Jason has been making good progress with mozilla
                  hno73: I don't think I'd worry too much about the use of the variety of sounds...  If
08:23 kjcole      there's some generic visual indication that "a sound has happened" it would be somewhat
                  helpful, but a lot of sounds aren't strictly necessary.
08:23 hno73       Ok, so I'll clean that up a bit more and then appeal to the wider community for help
                  with testing
08:23 jgrieves    sorry all had a family emerg.
08:23 jgrieves    greetings!
08:23 dholbach    yeah, we should start blogging, writing to mailing lists and invite people as much as
                  we can
08:23 hno73       kjcole: right
08:24 hno73       dholbach: yeah, we have the basic infrastructure now
08:24 dholbach    yeah i'm happy to see this all emerging to quickly
08:24 TheMuso     jgrieves: Hey
08:25 jgrieves    alright jsut to let you know firefox is getting much better with magnification
                  hno73: In an ideal world, people would be able to choose different colored flashes,
08:25 kjcole      different regions or different animations for events in the same way that they can with
                  sounds, but I think the more essential problem relates to language.
08:25 jgrieves    it was really unusable, Gen Chen @ Sun is taking the lead
08:25 dholbach    jsgotangco's blog entry was nice, but since then, nothing much happened (from
                  somebody's point of view, who's not subscribed to all mailing list)
08:26 jgrieves    TheMuso: I threw your gnome-mag packages into dapper it seemd to run fine
08:27 TheMuso     Right.
08:27 linbetwin   jgrieves: so is that bug about the focus moving to the top left corner solved?
08:27 jgrieves    TheMuso: i can't seem to find that bug @ ubuntu but last I saw, it was on hold because
                  the owner (Daniel?) couldn't get it to run in Dapper
08:28 hno73       dholbach: but we have a cunning plan of getting on osnews every two weeks or so
08:28 hno73       :)
08:28 jgrieves    linbetwin yep, I  built the latest with CVS and that is now solved, included another
                  problem, with focus getting lost in text boxes
08:28 dholbach    hno73: wow, that's ambitious :)
08:28 jgrieves    linbetwin those patches should be included in the next FF update, hopefully should see
                  that in Dapper
08:28 hno73       dholbach: did you see http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=12942 ?
08:29 linbetwin   jgrieves: great!
08:29 dholbach    yeah, that was super
08:29 hno73       jgrieves: is working on a review now that we'll post up as well
08:29 hno73       And I have a couple in the pipeline
08:30 jgrieves    hno73: yep, i sent to list, I have another couple pages left
08:30 dholbach    it'd be great to have bugs we monitor upstream
08:30 hno73       I'm sure there are ways we can tie in with this on-going Mass ODF story as well
08:30 hno73       jgrieves: yeah it looks good
08:31 jgrieves    hno73 just a start :) I got tired at 3 AM :)
08:31 hno73       :)
08:31 hno73       So Ubuntu Express looks like it might be quite useable for us
08:32 jgrieves    hno73: that is great, I was following progress and sharing with others, I  think this
                  will be a big story for us if we do it well
08:32 TheMuso     hno73: Any idea when that might start appearing on the CDs?
08:32 hno73       how do people feel about using the m1...v3 codes as boot codes on the live CD?
08:32 TheMuso     They will need to be very well explained.
08:32 TheMuso     Even then I am not sure.
08:32 hno73       TheMuso: no not really. I'll catch up with Kamion about it again soon
08:33 jgrieves    hno73: it took me a while to figure that one out on the page but its pretty logical
08:33 crimsun     something less esoteric than m1...v3, perhaps
08:33 hno73       the point is that those codes would be well advertised on the website, even on the CD
                  cover perhaps
08:34 TheMuso     Yeah that could work.
08:34 hno73       if we send out CDs to special groups there can be a notice in an appropriate format
08:34 hno73       like braille even
08:34 jgrieves    we thought about putting out braille documentationw ith CD's?
08:34 jgrieves    hno73: great minds think alike :)
08:34 hno73       :)
08:35 kjcole      Oops.  Minor fires here at the office.  I guess I'm going to have to catch the rest of
                  this in the logs.  Sorry 'bout that.
08:35 hno73       once the CD has the option then it's just a matter of making people aware
08:35 jgrieves    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Documentation a major thanks to kjcole for
                  helping me get most of this straightend up
08:36 jgrieves    hno73 i think your right.  Once aware it seems pretty simplistic
08:36 hno73       Ok, so I'll keep the gteam posted on updates wrt UE
08:36 hno73       cool
08:36 hno73       ok, I'm done with my points
08:36 hno73       jgrieves: you hade some otems?
08:36 TheMuso     For those who are interested, I have been talking to hno73 about the inclusion of
                  speakup, and it seems that it may not be so much of a problem as was first thought.
08:36 hno73       items
                  the documentation really needs some work with gnome for blind usrs, now I can
08:37 jgrieves    definitely fill in the sections I have, but would like some definitely help with
                  increasing content
08:37 hno73       Yeah, the kernel devs are positive about trying to put it in the main kernel
08:37 TheMuso     I can certainly help with the screen reader/speech aspect, but since I don't have a
                  braille device, I am unable to help regarding that.
08:37 hno73       which is great! fingers crossed it goes smoothly
08:37 jgrieves    TheMuso progress on the /Speakup page?
08:38 TheMuso     jgrieves: No, including speakup into the Ubuntu kernel.
08:38 hno73       jgrieves: no I've been emailing with the ubuntu kernel maintainers
=== TheMuso intends to fetch an mm tree later today to have a look at what version is there.
08:38 jgrieves    TheMuso: yeah :) I was talking about anything since my first reading of the page
08:39 hno73       so some testing from our side would be great
08:39 TheMuso     Indeed.
08:39 jgrieves    are our kernel people sounding optomistic?
08:39 TheMuso     I may contact BenC on IRC later to ask about it.
08:40 hno73       jgrieves: yes indeed
08:40 TheMuso     jgrieves: To them, as long as it doesn't stomp over too much other stuff, and it
                  doesn't really, it should be fine.
08:40 hno73       though it's still untested, so I prefer not to count chickens :)
08:40 jgrieves    hno73: great
08:40 TheMuso     I would be happy to give it a workout.
08:40 hno73       I'm guessing it will be in module form, so optional
08:40 jgrieves    I can throw it on a virtual machine
08:40 TheMuso     I will also put up a guide as to how to get it working with software speech for those
                  who want to try it out.
08:41 jgrieves    TheMuso great
08:41 hno73       Cool, I guess we'll see it in the wild in a week or two
=== TheMuso makes his way to his local kernel.org mirror.
08:42 jgrieves    TheMuso your the only one i know who tested my full screen magnification instructions,
                  anybody else?
08:42 jgrieves    TheMuso: my new review has some "workarounds" I will need people to see how well they
                  work,
08:42 hno73       jgrieves: I should try as well. I've only tried half screen before
08:43 jgrieves    hno73 definitely.  Of possible just use my documentation and see how well it is
                  written, I want it to be easy to follow
08:43 hno73       Has anyone tried it on two acreens?
08:43 jgrieves    and eventually scripted
08:43 hno73       jgrieves: cool, will do
08:43 TheMuso     I haven't as I only have one monitor here.
08:43 hno73       awesome :)
08:44 jgrieves    hno73 nope, can you send a 21'' lcd for christmas? :)
08:44 hno73       hm, the 21" ones are still quite expensive :)
08:45 hno73       but the 19" ones are good value IMO :)
08:45 TheMuso     Indeed. I would like to replace my CRT with a 21" LCD one day.
=== hno73 has one, and is glad as I spend a lot of time in front of it
08:46 jgrieves    so where do we stand with the gnome-mag packages? hno73 and Luke, you tested on dapper
                  yet?
08:46 hno73       jgrieves: about your wiki navigation point. That's just a macro in the page, so I can
                  fix that
08:47 jgrieves    hno73: cool, i'm not sure what is most usable as I was never the best web developer,
                  but some seem to be at top, others at bottom
=== hno73 did an install of dapper which failed to get net access. will try again
08:47 hno73       jgrieves: ccool, I'll do that
08:48 TheMuso     jgrieves: Yes I have. I have no problems, however when dholbach tried to test it, he
                  encountered something weird.
08:48 TheMuso     dholbach: Any progress?
08:48 hno73       btw, speaking of web. try: http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8003/ubuntu
08:48 jgrieves    TheMuso i was worried with the new 7.0 we hit some new bugs in fixes/damage, but both
                  of ours seems to be fine
08:48 hno73       using the View > stylesheets menu you can change themes
08:49 hno73       it's meant to work by clicking the eye logo
08:49 hno73       but it's still a bit broken
08:49 jgrieves    View > Page Style, very cool!!
08:49 hno73       I hope to implement that accross our websites and wikis
08:50 hno73       (there will be slightly fewer options though)
08:50 jgrieves    i like that on the fly action :)
08:50 hno73       I guess high contrast will small letters is a bit pointless
=== Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
08:50 jgrieves    TheMuso: can you send link to that bug? I can't find it
08:51 hno73       So the plan is to have the best accessible site of any distro
08:51 hno73       at the very least :)
08:51 TheMuso     http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20320
08:51 jgrieves    hno73: makes sense, if we built it, they will come :)
08:52 jgrieves    TheMuso: ty, will add comments so we can get this show on the road
08:52 hno73       getting a website AT award would be very cool. then we would get linked to from
                  relevant places
08:52 jgrieves    hno73, very, how well does the wiki work with screen readers?  TheMuso?
08:53 TheMuso     jgrieves: Very well, at least on the console with links2. A bit hard to edit pages
                  though.
08:53 kjcole      Back.
08:53 hno73       jgrieves: I think it still has the navigation stuff at the top, which is not so good
08:53 hno73       It's quite hard to fix though :(
08:53 jgrieves    TheMuso: cool.  have we done extensive testing with JAWS or Gnopernicus?
08:54 hno73       I'll probably need to work with upstream on that
08:54 jgrieves    my guess is most disabled users who might want to take the plunge would start in
                  Windows with Jaws/WindowWise
08:54 TheMuso     jgrieves: JAWS is alright, but haven't given it a real work out. Haven't tried with
                  gnopernicus due to the firefox support being crap. Haven't tried with 1.5 yet.
=== lucasd [n=double@200.209.161.163] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
08:54 jgrieves    TheMuso: my FF with gnopernicus ws pretty good, most problems I had were poor website
                  coding
08:55 TheMuso     jgrieves: What about speech?
08:55 jgrieves    TheMuso: but I am not very good with the screen reader, haven't learned hot keys or
                  that really weird...control.thingy they have
=== hno73 is getting visitors from overseas now, so I'll have to run ...
08:55 TheMuso     With carrot browsing mode?
08:55 jgrieves    TheMuso: yep that's what I tested, it read the pages, hit pictures, etc
08:55 TheMuso     hno73: No problem. Have a merry Christmas.
08:55 hno73       Thanks everyone :)
08:55 jgrieves    hno73: merry Christmas! did u email me?
08:55 TheMuso     We will discuss next meeting etc in a week or so.
08:56 hno73       jgrieves: earlier today yes
08:56 jgrieves    hno73: if that's you, i'll reply with details after I get a big chucnk worked out, but
                  thanks! that is exactly what i wanted
08:56 jgrieves    going into draft number 2
08:56 jgrieves    so i have a good iddea what i need to focus/improve
=== PhantomsDad [n=gary@konversation/developer/PhantomsDad] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== hno73 [n=henrik@henrik.gotadsl.co.uk] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
08:57 jgrieves    not the most active discussion today huh?  were is Daniel?
08:57 TheMuso     Good question.
08:57 TheMuso     PhantomsDad: Have you had much to do with KDE's magnifier?
08:58 PhantomsDad TheMuso: No, Gunnar and Olaf would be the ones to talk to.
08:58 TheMuso     We have been discussing test plans for magnification with GNOME etc, and have been
                  considering testing the KDE accessibility tools.
08:58 TheMuso     hmmm ok.
08:58 PhantomsDad The mag that Gunnar is working on has not been released yet and the code is not
                  available.
=== bmonty [n=bmontgom@ubuntu/member/bmonty] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
08:59 PhantomsDad Gunnar must first obtain ok from his doctoral mentor.
08:59 PhantomsDad He must defend his thesis before it can be released.
08:59 jgrieves    PhantomsDad: how well doe sit keep with focus in KDE?
=== TheMuso wonders why most things have to depend on academia.
=== highvoltage [n=Jono@196.207.41.251] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
08:59 PhantomsDad Gunnar demoed it at aKademy.  I'll get the link..
09:00 jgrieves    i know in Gnome without the AT turned on gnome-mag won't follow keyboard, and then some
                  apps dont even work with that...
=== TheMuso must really poke the GNOME folks about speech-dispatcher.
=== dholbach [n=daniel@p54A65E58.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== lucasd [n=double@200.209.161.163] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Fui]
09:01 jgrieves    there is the man!
09:01 dholbach    i flew out the net, sorry :-(
09:01 dholbach    the connection at my parents place seems a bit flaky
09:02 jgrieves    i sure as heck wasn't going to lead this crazy party, blind leading the blind :)
09:02 TheMuso     hahaha.
09:02 TheMuso     dholbach: I have managed to get PhantomsDad to join, a dev from the KDE accessibility
                  project.
09:02 dholbach    oh nice
09:02 TheMuso     Have you any questions? His area is mainly kttsd stuff.
09:02 dholbach    hello PhantomsDad
09:03 PhantomsDad hello
09:03 dholbach    what were you talking about in the time, when i was away?
09:03 TheMuso     Since this is a meeting channel, and we seem to be finished, should we maybe move this
                  elsewhere?
09:03 dholbach    i'll read the irclog
09:03 TheMuso     dholbach: Mainly user testing, and magnification stuff, particularly relating to docs.
09:03 PhantomsDad Here's a transcript of Gunnar's talk, but I'm afraid it won't answer your question. :/
                  http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=KDE+for+Partially+Sighted+Users
09:04 jgrieves    cool i'm looking forward to KDE 4.0 + accessibility
09:05 TheMuso     jgrieves: So am I. If it is better than GNOME's, I am switching.
09:05 TheMuso     Particularly if the speech system is using SD (speech-dispatcher)
09:05 jgrieves    TheMuso: the KDE folks seem to have such a large group of developers, i haven't ever
                  made the switch because of lack of accessibility
09:06 linbetwin   jgrieves: i tested kmag in KDE 3.4.2, 3.4.3 and 3.5 in various distros
09:06 jgrieves    TheMuso: information on speech-dispatcher?
09:06 jgrieves    linbetwin: how well did it keep focus?
09:06 TheMuso     jgrieves: KDE intend to use speech-dispatcher as their speech back-end which IMO is a
                  really good idea.
09:06 jgrieves    TheMuso: link on information?  I haven't really heard of it before
09:07 linbetwin   jgrieves: it doesn't follow keyboard focus at all, but it's much better at rendering
                  the magnified area (no black blocks)
                  speech-dispatcher is a daemon and API that provides applications like screen readers to
09:07 TheMuso     be able to output speech. Speech-dispatcher handles the various synthesizers that are
                  available.
09:08 jgrieves    PhantomsDad: is that demo linked somewhere on that page?
09:08 jgrieves    TheMuso: sounds much more powerful than what we have now
09:08 TheMuso     jgrieves: Indeed.
09:08 jgrieves    linbetwin: does it use composite?
09:08 TheMuso     I am digging around to see if I can find a speech-dispatcerh gnome-speech driver
                  anywhere.
09:09 linbetwin   jgrieves: i don't know what composite is
09:09 jgrieves    TheMuso: asked gnome-accessibility? the sun folks might know
09:09 jgrieves    linbetwin composite extension for X, what future screen mags will be using as a major
                  back-end
09:09 TheMuso     jgrieves: I might have to.
09:10 jgrieves    TheMuso: or build your own :)
09:10 linbetwin   jgrieves: i really don't know
09:11 linbetwin   but the magnified image is much cleaner than in gnome-mag
09:11 linbetwin   but it can't be docked to the edge of the screen
09:12 jgrieves    linbetwin yeah there were major limitations, i couldn't really use it in a work
                  environemtn
09:12 linbetwin   and it has a superfluous title bar
09:12 jgrieves    linbetwin gnome-mag + full screen + TheMuso's fixes to gnome-mag + my workarounds
                  actually works pretty well
09:13 jgrieves    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Reviews/Gnome-Mag#preview
                  Anyway folks, thanks for the talk/meeting. If you wish to discuss anything further with
09:13 TheMuso     me I can be found in #ubuntu-accessibility. I would like to see that channel used more.
                  :)
=== TheMuso [n=luke@dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
09:14 linbetwin   jgrieves: i don't think i can use full screen magnification. I'm used to a having a
                  window at the lower bottom of the screen
09:14 jgrieves    TheMuso: agreed we are lonely in there :) now that i am back home i plan to idle with
                  you hehe
09:15 jgrieves    linbetwin: cool, whatever works for you.  i went crazy with 50% of my screen being used
09:15 jgrieves    linbetwin: of course i don't use it on a regular basis
09:15 jgrieves    TheMuso i'll keep up to date on that bug
09:16 jgrieves    TheMuso i added my comments you might want to do the same, I really want to get these
                  in dapper
09:17 jgrieves    TheMuso: and I will probably get some work done on the documentation.  I would love
                  your input in the speech part, especially with the console
09:17 jgrieves    TheMuso: I would like ot focus on the other sections improvement with screen shots and
                  better details
09:18 linbetwin   jgrieves: any word on when is OOo going to support gnome-mag?
09:18 jgrieves    linbetwin nope, after getting on Firefox that is my next battle
09:19 linbetwin   jgrieves: I've noticed that some Gnome apps work with gnome-mag and some don't. is that
                  something that can be easily fixed?
09:20 jgrieves    linbetwin: are they just gtk apps or gnome apps?
09:21 jgrieves    linbetwin: before running a gtk app, run
09:21 jgrieves    export GTK_MODULES=gail:atk-bridge
=== matthew5 [n=matthew_@ip70-176-180-97.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
                  then run the app from the console, if you see "Accessibility Support initialized"
09:21 jgrieves    everything the developer has put into the app should be brought ot hte attention fo the
                  AT
09:23 linbetwin   for ex. gnomeradio, gedit and gnome-terminal work
09:23 jgrieves    yep
09:24 linbetwin   in FF's adress bar the focus goes to the center of the address bar, not to the cursor
=== asw [n=asw@karuna.med.harvard.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:25 jgrieves    yeah that may be an FF bug, have you tested with latest CVS?
09:25 kjcole      Time for some non-Ubuntu work.  Bye...
09:25 linbetwin   no, i hope to do that this weekend
09:26 linbetwin   bye, kjcole
09:26 jgrieves    linbetwin k, keep em updated, and use the wiki
09:26 jgrieves    i am trying to follow firefox closely
09:26 jgrieves    the sun developer is working hard on 'em now, so we should get him while he's focused
09:26 linbetwin   ok
09:27 jgrieves    ok lunch for me! see ya
09:28 linbetwin   bon appetit! see ya!
09:29 jgrieves    hha thanks

CategoryAccessibilityTeam

MeetingLogs/Accessibility_2005-12-21 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:32:47 by localhost)