(03:58:08 PM) kwwii: ok, let's give people a few more minutes to join and then start things up
(04:01:29 PM) kwwii: ok, so everyone/anyone here for the art meeting?
(04:01:58 PM) laughing_man: i am
(04:02:08 PM) dsargeant: me too
(04:02:14 PM) kwwii: ok, so let's go through the points
(04:02:22 PM) kwwii:  * GDM:  getting the bg inline with the wallpaper; new icons
(04:02:22 PM) kwwii:  * GTK:  tweaking the gtk themes and discussing clearlooks vs. murrine
(04:02:22 PM) kwwii:  * DESKTOP: Wallpaper tweaks. Discussing current state, ideas for moving
(04:02:25 PM) kwwii: forward
(04:02:27 PM) kwwii:  * ICONS: Needed! Update icon in Human style for panel; Scale and Expose
(04:02:31 PM) kwwii: icons; General state of human refresh
(04:02:33 PM) kwwii:  * 8.10: Discuss current ideas, how to move forward
(04:02:36 PM) kwwii:  * 8.10 DeviantArt Theme Competition:  A way to engage with the wider
(04:02:38 PM) kwwii: community of creative-commons artists.
(04:02:43 PM) kwwii: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/deviantart-theme-competition
(04:02:57 PM) sam7: hello, i'm here this time
(04:02:58 PM) kwwii: well, that did not work as well as I thought it could
(04:03:16 PM) kwwii: let's start at the top; GDM
(04:03:37 PM) sam7: the GDM must look like the main theme
(04:03:38 PM) gp[]: hello everyone people
(04:03:39 PM) kwwii: been thinking about using a heron-like bg for the gdm
(04:03:56 PM) kwwii: hi gp[], sam7 laughing_man, dsargeant
(04:04:03 PM) laughing_man: hello
(04:04:08 PM) sam7: yes, the hardy heron, with only one button in the left corner
(04:04:22 PM) fruchtschwert: maybe it should match with the wallpaper .. ?
(04:04:33 PM) sam7: yest
(04:04:34 PM) laughing_man: can we refrain from acyronims for the time being.
(04:04:35 PM) kwwii: fruchtschwert: that is the point, really
(04:04:36 PM) steph_: kwwii, you mean changing GDM at each release ?
(04:04:36 PM) laughing_man: what is GDM?
(04:04:44 PM) steph_: Gnome Display Manager
(04:04:47 PM) steph_: you connexion screen
(04:05:00 PM) kwwii: steph_: I would like to see the bg in gdm at least match with the desktop
(04:05:10 PM) kwwii: it does not have to be exactly the same
(04:05:12 PM) sam7: it must be the same as the theme used by default
(04:05:24 PM) dsargeant: are we decided on the wallpaper then?
(04:05:25 PM) sam7: of course
(04:05:27 PM) kwwii: just using some elements from the wallpaper would be enough  I htink
(04:05:35 PM) sam7: but it must look like
(04:05:46 PM) sam7: sorry for my bad english
(04:05:47 PM) kwwii: we are very close to being certain that some form of the heron will be default
(04:05:57 PM) kwwii: either the heron or elephant
(04:06:12 PM) dsargeant: my vote's for the heron
(04:06:15 PM) fruchtschwert: what about this kutie fela wallpaper ?
(04:06:17 PM) sam7: the 2 will be instaled by default
(04:06:18 PM) fruchtschwert: why elephant ?
(04:06:21 PM) steph_: yes, I must admit GDM is a little too 'simple'
(04:06:29 PM) gp[]: i agre with you kwwii for the gdm, i vote for heron
(04:06:30 PM) steph_: we could tweak it a littlt
(04:06:30 PM) kwwii: fruchtschwert: feta kuli is the heron I am talking about
(04:06:35 PM) sam7: GDM & wallpaper
(04:06:45 PM) sam7: heron & elephant
(04:06:51 PM) kwwii: another point in gdm is the icons that come with it
(04:07:01 PM) kwwii: we need to make new ones (I cretaed one quickly to fix a bug)
(04:07:14 PM) dsargeant: are we using the same gdm layout?
(04:07:24 PM) sam7: 2 colours : brown/orange for gnome and blue for KDE
(04:07:24 PM) kwwii: dsargeant: bascially, yes
(04:07:39 PM) kwwii: dsargeant: unless we can think of some worthwhile change
(04:07:53 PM) sam7: yes, new icones is a good idea
(04:08:03 PM) sam7: more modern
(04:08:11 PM) steph_: kwwii, the one you've done is quite nice :)
(04:08:17 PM) kwwii: so if anyone is interested in working on either of those points, let me know
(04:08:34 PM) steph_: I want to learn icon creations. This doesn't mean I can do it :)
(04:08:48 PM) kwwii: steph_: the general style of those icons is nasty though
(04:08:56 PM) steph_: old fashionned
(04:08:59 PM) kwwii: right
(04:09:10 PM) sam7: i dont know how to do it, but it must be interesting
(04:09:14 PM) steph_: I'd like to have a look, but I'm gonna be disconnected :]
(04:09:18 PM) steph_: by the way, just a question
(04:09:23 PM) laughing_man: what icons in particular are we talking about? i'm soooo lost.
(04:09:25 PM) kwwii: so moving on to the next topic
(04:09:49 PM) steph_: is there a way to make a better transition between GDM and Desktop
(04:09:59 PM) kwwii: laughing_man: the restart, shut-down, hibernate, sleep icons in the menu at the bottom left of gdm (after you click on the system icon)
(04:10:00 PM) steph_: how'd you say the word...it's not gradient
(04:10:15 PM) kwwii: steph_: that is one thing that we are pretty much always looking into
(04:10:22 PM) kwwii: but it is not something that will happen soon
(04:10:23 PM) sam7: why not create a new usplash
(04:10:36 PM) fruchtschwert: and a nice grub ..
(04:10:51 PM) kwwii: sam7: feel free to make a proposal
(04:10:52 PM) fruchtschwert: i'm not the big developer .. just asking ..
(04:11:02 PM) sam7: yes, all the icones must be changed, and more modern
(04:11:18 PM) dsargeant: shouldn't those icons be the same as are displayed when you click on system quit in gnome?
(04:11:19 PM) kwwii: so, next topic
(04:11:19 PM) kwwii: GTK
(04:11:19 PM) kwwii: I tweaked both the themes a bit
(04:11:19 PM) steph_: Can't find the word
(04:11:22 PM) sam7: i dont know how to do
(04:11:35 PM) kwwii: that should be apparent by now...I have another change ready, getting the orange color correct is somewhat hard and took some testing
(04:11:53 PM) sam7: i think the new LTS must be the occasion to change icones by defaul
(04:11:58 PM) laughing_man: is there a visual database of all these proposals? or is this all conceptual/descriptive at this point?
(04:11:59 PM) kwwii: dsargeant: ideally yes, all the icons for that metaphor should look the same
(04:12:02 PM) mgunes: kwwii, do you submit your changes to a bzr repo anywhere?
(04:12:05 PM) sam7: i'd like to learn to do it
(04:12:34 PM) kwwii: mgunes: yes, I put the changes in human-theme on launchpad
(04:12:41 PM) kwwii: but it should already be in the repo I guess
(04:12:43 PM) mikemaccana: And there I was in -artwork wondering why everyone was so quiet
(04:13:00 PM) kwwii: mgunes: I will be commiting some more changes either later or tomorrow
(04:13:07 PM) kwwii: mikemaccana: :-)
(04:13:07 PM) sladen: sb end
(04:13:10 PM) mgunes: kwwii, thanks
(04:13:36 PM) dsargeant: I think the color selection ability in the gtk should be a priority.
(04:13:36 PM) kwwii: I think that if we are going to change the theme engine murrine looks like the more flexible engine
(04:13:53 PM) kwwii: dsargeant: I agree with that too an extent
(04:14:05 PM) sam7: yes, the colors are important
(04:14:22 PM) kwwii: the idea behind the color select stuff is great, but if I cannot easily make a theme which looks like I want it to, I will happily lose that option for this one theme
(04:14:28 PM) dsargeant: so far the clearlooks is the only one that has the ability, correct?
(04:14:30 PM) sam7: something between brown and orange for example
(04:14:38 PM) kwwii: there is a suggested murrine as well
(04:14:55 PM) kwwii: I thought about playing with that for a bit to see if I could fix things up
(04:15:01 PM) mgunes: kwwii, human-murrine-mod?
(04:15:02 PM) gp[]: yes, I agre with the idea to swith at murrine engine
(04:15:07 PM) laughing_man: all right, well as much fun as this is.. i think i'm just going to bow out now because i'm just an artist i got no idea what you people are refering to with all your GTK GDM etc. talk.. Good luck with everything! i'll just submit a wallpaper or something on deviantart.
(04:15:07 PM) kwwii: mgunes: yes
(04:15:09 PM) sam7: with black and or grey
(04:15:16 PM) steph_: kwwii, at the moment, I'm using a theme I found yesterday on the Web, wich is MurrinaTango
(04:15:22 PM) fruchtschwert: is the gradient between menubar and symbolbar available in murrine too ?
(04:15:28 PM) fruchtschwert: this hack by xlcheese ?
(04:15:29 PM) steph_: I think we should do something in the style
(04:15:32 PM) steph_: give you a screenshot
(04:15:34 PM) sam7: for the "tableau de bords"
(04:15:34 PM) DanaG: Hmm, I currently use an orange Aurora theme I assembled myself.  Somebody else described it as "another unnecessary fork of Murrine", but it looks way different to me.
(04:15:52 PM) kwwii: first off, we will not be using any hacked themes
(04:15:55 PM) kwwii: it is too late for that now
(04:15:57 PM) dsargeant: laughing_man: are you subsribed to the ubuntu-art mailing list?
(04:16:04 PM) laughing_man: no
(04:16:13 PM) kwwii: so if we pick a theme engine it is between clearlooks and murrine
(04:16:23 PM) kwwii: or ubuntulooks, naturally
(04:16:39 PM) kwwii: I get the feeling that just trying to tweak things in an existing theme is not the right way to go about this
(04:16:40 PM) dsargeant: laughing_man: people seem to be submitting artwork there
(04:16:40 PM) DanaG: My current theme also uses the Tropic metacity theme without the red button.
(04:16:41 PM) DanaG: www.csc.calpoly.edu/~dgoyette/screenshot.png   -- can you make Murrine look like that Aurora, too?
(04:16:44 PM) fruchtschwert: but i heard murrine has more modern features than clearlooks without hacks
(04:16:50 PM) gp[]: the murrine is a good a flexible engine
(04:16:56 PM) fruchtschwert: so probably choose this one
(04:16:57 PM) kwwii: we should know what we want in advance and then get a theme written which does that
(04:17:00 PM) laughing_man: dsargent: i'm not a hardcore linux user i just use it for basic things.. i wanted to help out with the art, but i'm just too confused by all this technical speak to keep up, or really contribute.
(04:17:05 PM) sam7: murrine is a good idea
(04:17:16 PM) kwwii: laughing_man: it will not all be this technical
(04:17:33 PM) fruchtschwert: i also read, murrine can do transparency .. this would be great
(04:17:49 PM) dsargeant: laughing_man: yeah, don't be discouraged.  The deviant art topic is on the agenda too.
(04:18:04 PM) andreasn: sorry for the late arrival, had some technical issues
(04:18:05 PM) sam7: yes, its great transparency
(04:18:10 PM) gp[]:  I saw the color scheme used in Alpha 6 for murrine and it very nice
(04:18:11 PM) kwwii: I think that the way forward is to try and use murrine with the intent to create a theme of our own based somewhat on that for hardy+1
(04:18:42 PM) gp[]: I agre with you (kwwii)
(04:18:46 PM) laughing_man: well if you could point me to screen shots like danaG i can give an opinion.. :-)
(04:18:51 PM) sam7: why not for the 8.04 LTS
(04:19:00 PM) steph_: http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1379/murrinatangofb7.png
(04:19:02 PM) gp[]: murrine is very flexible
(04:19:05 PM) dsargeant: is it possible to add the color selection to murrine?
(04:19:05 PM) kwwii: keep up the discussion on the list about this stuff
(04:19:20 PM) mgunes: kwwii, I reckon what we want to do is get rid of the blandness of Ubuntulooks and introduce a tiny bit of vividness and contrast with a new engine, without drifting too far from the theme of the last three releases
(04:19:32 PM) steph_: kwwii, what do you think about the menubar ?
(04:19:37 PM) fruchtschwert: i agree with mgunes
(04:20:07 PM) sam7: The menubar must be more modern
(04:20:11 PM) sam7: more fluide
(04:20:19 PM) kwwii: mgunes: I think that things like the ubuntulooks scrollbars and progress bars are pretty cool and that we might want to evolve that style a bit instead of just pitching it because an existing theme doesn't do it like that
(04:20:47 PM) steph_: I like the stripes in menubars
(04:20:50 PM) kwwii: so, the next subject is the wallpaper
(04:20:57 PM) kwwii: it seems like we have almost covered that already
(04:20:57 PM) fruchtschwert: are these bars not possible with murrine ?
(04:21:06 PM) dsargeant: The animated progress bars look strange in network manager.
(04:21:13 PM) laughing_man: i think it's important to perserve the colorscheme of ubuntu.. :-) and i do like the stripes in the menubars.. it's simple but looks polished and slick.
(04:21:14 PM) fruchtschwert: i like them
(04:21:15 PM) kwwii: feta kuli (the heron pic) is very popular
(04:21:19 PM) sam7: the systeme menu must be reorganised
(04:21:33 PM) kwwii: I will probably edit the background parts a bit to reduce the contrast
(04:21:51 PM) fruchtschwert: i think its a great idea to make a connection with the distribution naming
(04:22:00 PM) laughing_man: kwwi, what are you reffering to when you say you'll edit?
(04:22:07 PM) laughing_man: do you have a screen image i can see?
(04:22:08 PM) DanaG: If the (tweaked not to look bloody) heron pic ends up as default in Hardy, I am so going to get a case skin of it (with a black background) for my next laptop.
(04:22:12 PM) kwwii: laughing_man: what I miss most in the murrine progress bars is the little lines showing percentage or whatever
(04:22:20 PM) mgunes: the problem is that "Hardy Heron" isn't the release name. it's the development codename
(04:22:21 PM) andreasn: I noticed some issues with the background on some screens with 16 bit systems, anyone else ran into that?
(04:22:34 PM) mgunes: besides, most non-English speaking people won't associate the picture with a "Heron"
(04:22:38 PM) andreasn: err...16 bit color depth
(04:22:55 PM) kwwii: andreasn: probably with the gradient and the transparent things on top
(04:23:03 PM) kwwii: color-banding or whatever it is called
(04:23:06 PM) fruchtschwert: doesn't mark shuttleworth give guidelines concerning the wallpaper ? or at least an opinion ?
(04:23:16 PM) laughing_man: what is the murrine progress bar? lol i don't know the technical names of anything... sorry
(04:23:39 PM) kwwii: fruchtschwert: yes, he does, to me :-)
(04:23:43 PM) andreasn: kwwii: did you settle for either murrine or clearloooks yet?
(04:23:47 PM) fruchtschwert: so, what does he say :-)
(04:23:54 PM) dsargeant: laughing_man: murrine is the engine used to draw windows.
(04:23:56 PM) kwwii: andreasn: nope, not sure yet
(04:24:03 PM) fruchtschwert: maybe we should rewind to engine once more
(04:24:07 PM) kwwii: andreasn: it will either be murrine or ubuntulooks again
(04:24:10 PM) fruchtschwert: to gtk i mean
(04:24:12 PM) kwwii: if you ask me, that is ;-)
(04:24:13 PM) andreasn: kwwii: ah, ok
(04:24:49 PM) kwwii: dsargeant: nope, murrine is used to draw all the things inside windows, metacity is used to draw windows :D
(04:24:52 PM) DanaG: Are murrine and clearlooks the only two choices?  I'd hope to also see Aurora and Fedora's Nodoka engines packaged, at least, even if not used by default.  Both theme engines look nice to me.
(04:25:15 PM) steph_: and metacity theme have to be reviewed
(04:25:15 PM) kwwii: DanaG: they could certainly be packaged, have you ever done that kinda stuff before?
(04:25:22 PM) andreasn: did either of those (ubuntulooks or murrine) have any issues with the firefox3 betas? I know Nodoka ran into some issues
(04:25:26 PM) steph_: cause I think this is the most old-fshionned of the theme
(04:25:40 PM) fruchtschwert: the developer of murrine quite critized these alternative engines
(04:25:47 PM) dsargeant: kwwii: sorry, that's what I meant, the insides
(04:25:48 PM) DanaG: Here's a theme I used for a while, until I realized it was making me gloomy:  http://users.csc.calpoly.edu/~dgoyette/screenshot-dark.png
(04:25:50 PM) laughing_man: I had read that artist were asked to use open-source graphics software to create the wallpaper? Is that set in stone? because frankly OSS graphics software is nowhere near as good as Adobe software. can someone explain were we're at on that?
(04:25:50 PM) fruchtschwert: as useless forks :-)
(04:26:12 PM) kwwii: laughing_man: no, that is not really true
(04:26:17 PM) gp[]: why not use a new metacity theme? xl_cheese posted a very nice metacity theme in mailinglist
(04:26:20 PM) DanaG: If you can reproduce them with Murrine, then they're useless, but otherwise, they seem different to me.
(04:26:22 PM) mgunes: andreasn, see bug 192778
(04:26:22 PM) laughing_man: Dana, this is gloomy... we don't want people to get depressed!
(04:26:42 PM) kwwii: gp[]: because that would change the look of the last of the cycle, a long term support product
(04:26:48 PM) DanaG: But just look at the engine and ignore the wallpaper and colors.  Fedora 8 uses that engine with a ridiculously-bright blue.
(04:26:50 PM) kwwii: we will change things up after hardy
(04:26:53 PM) sam7: metacity is beautifull too
(04:26:53 PM) andreasn: mgunes: gnome bugzilla? mozilla or launchpad?
(04:26:55 PM) steph_: DanaG, it looks a little KDE-like, but nice
(04:27:02 PM) mgunes: andreasn, sorry, LP
(04:27:07 PM) laughing_man: Okay so it's my impression that we're working to design the default graphics on this, but everything will still be as customizable a ever right?
(04:27:07 PM) gp[]: kwwii: ok ok
(04:27:19 PM) kwwii: laughing_man: yepp
(04:27:25 PM) fruchtschwert: we should copy fedora
(04:27:30 PM) fruchtschwert: we should not
(04:27:31 PM) steph_: laughing_man, free graphical softwares are quite powerful...if you know how to use it
(04:27:34 PM) fruchtschwert: i wanted to say
(04:27:41 PM) sam7: no, we mus'nt copy
(04:27:44 PM) DanaG: I'll screenshot that theme with orange.
(04:27:45 PM) ***kwwii runs to the bathroom at the half-way point
(04:28:26 PM) fruchtschwert: .. so somebody knows a good joke ?
(04:28:37 PM) laughing_man: steph, i'm sorry to say for professional purposes, FOSS graphics programs don't hold a candle to photoshop.. hate to say it, but it's true.
(04:29:07 PM) steph_: Really high professionals, in this case
(04:29:22 PM) laughing_man: steph: some of us are that ;-)
(04:29:38 PM) kwwii: ok, sorry for that
(04:29:40 PM) laughing_man: yes dana please screenshot the theme you're talking about.
(04:29:48 PM) kwwii: so next up....
(04:29:52 PM) kwwii: ICONS
(04:29:59 PM) dsargeant: laughing_man: My opinion is you can use whatever you want to create the art as long as it can be opened with foss.
(04:30:09 PM) kwwii: we hae several icons which need to be made, anyone here want to make an icon? :-)
(04:30:14 PM) kwwii: pretty please?
(04:30:15 PM) laughing_man: good opinion dsargent.. :-)
(04:30:22 PM) mgunes: kwwii, what's the status of your panel icons?
(04:30:27 PM) laughing_man: what do you want the icon to be made for?
(04:30:28 PM) steph_: I don't know if someone noticed
(04:30:32 PM) steph_: but in your home folder
(04:30:34 PM) steph_: default view
(04:30:36 PM) sam7: why not, if someone tell me how to do
(04:30:37 PM) laughing_man: and what type of file should it be to be useable?
(04:30:39 PM) steph_: folder icons don't look really nice
(04:30:41 PM) DanaG: www.csc.calpoly.edu/~dgoyette/screenshot-orange-nodoka.png
(04:31:01 PM) steph_: but just type Ctrl + (increase icon size) and they look really great !
(04:31:09 PM) steph_: too bad it's not the same effect at normal size.
(04:31:18 PM) kwwii: mgunes: a few of them are done, kinda hoping that others would pitch in as well :-)
(04:31:28 PM) fruchtschwert: thats nice dana
(04:31:34 PM) kwwii: we found that we need to make them smaller, the same size as the text
(04:31:41 PM) kwwii: the clock text, I mena
(04:31:41 PM) laughing_man: dana: i don't see the difference between this one and the first SS you posted.
(04:31:45 PM) kwwii: mean
(04:31:49 PM) fruchtschwert: can we have that stripe with murrine or clearlooks ?
(04:32:01 PM) mgunes: kwwii, are they in bzr too?
(04:32:11 PM) andreasn: kwwii: did you have the monocrome stuff in launchpad somewhere? I would like to do some more experiments for that as well
(04:32:22 PM) kwwii: mgunes: yepp, human-panel-icons or such
(04:32:29 PM) mgunes: ok
(04:32:32 PM) mgunes: there's the issue of Firefox 3 using the standard folder icon at a very small size, making it look cramped, especially on small displays
(04:32:36 PM) DanaG: The difference between that and the first is that the first is Aurora, and that is Nodoka.  Same color settings on both.
(04:32:42 PM) kwwii: https://launchpad.net/human-panel-icons/
(04:33:14 PM) kwwii: so beyond that we have the 8.10 stuff
(04:33:18 PM) mgunes: the fact that it uses GTK theme elements is great, but this is an unfortunate side effect
(04:33:27 PM) kwwii: moving forward, I think that we will see things really heat up soon
(04:33:50 PM) kwwii: as hardy stuff clears up we will see more work towards the hardy+1 stuff
(04:34:13 PM) kwwii: we have a bunch of stuff on the wiki, some of it very interesting
(04:34:31 PM) laughing_man: can you link the wiki
(04:34:47 PM) kwwii: getting that information and looking into alternatives is still at hand
(04:35:06 PM) andreasn: mgunes: is this with human-icon-theme? I haven't ran into this issue with the regular gnome set, so I would consither that a bug in the icon set.
(04:35:27 PM) mgunes: andreasn, yes, it's with the default icons we use
(04:35:31 PM) kwwii: because we have so much new stuff with new code it will have to start very early in the cycle
(04:36:42 PM) kwwii: mgunes: is it a reported bug? if not, please create a bug
(04:36:54 PM) mgunes: kwwii, I will.
(04:37:21 PM) fruchtschwert: so which icons are missing ?
(04:37:26 PM) fruchtschwert: only for the panel ?
(04:37:54 PM) kwwii: fruchtschwert: there are two icons missing which appear in a menu on the desktop (scale and expose)
(04:38:13 PM) dsargeant: kwwii: laughing_man: is this the stuff of the wiki you were referring to? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate
(04:38:20 PM) kwwii: I have an expose icon almost finished, if someone wants to help with the scale icon let me know
(04:38:22 PM) sam7: i'd like to create an icon for the GDM, but i don't know how to do
(04:38:33 PM) kwwii: in addition we need a new update icon for the panel
(04:38:49 PM) kwwii: dsargeant: yes
(04:39:00 PM) sam7: i agree, this one wasn't interesting
(04:39:06 PM) mgunes: kwwii, any guidelines for the update icon? monochrome? exclamation mark or none? bright colors?
(04:39:11 PM) steph_ left the room (quit: "Quitte").
(04:39:13 PM) fruchtschwert: are you considering using color for important icons ?
(04:39:15 PM) sam7: it must be more modern
(04:39:27 PM) laughing_man: dsargeant! yes, images! i can see these, this is what I need to understand what you guys are talking about!
(04:39:42 PM) kwwii: mgunes: it should fit with the other human icons, and it does not necessarily have to be a star
(04:39:50 PM) kwwii: some have an up arrow for update
(04:39:52 PM) sam7: an icone whit 2 colors
(04:39:52 PM) dsargeant: laughing_man: :)
(04:39:57 PM) laughing_man: references... like i said i'm not a hardcore terminal using linux user!
(04:40:03 PM) fruchtschwert: up-arrow sounds nice
(04:40:03 PM) kwwii: others want a down arrow for "download new updates"
(04:40:14 PM) fruchtschwert: :-)
(04:40:31 PM) mgunes: you mean UPdates? :)
(04:40:47 PM) fruchtschwert: what about a small ubuntu logo for updates ?
(04:40:57 PM) andreasn: the default have a pretty clear metaphor, so it coult be a idea to just restyle that a bit
(04:41:01 PM) kwwii: fruchtschwert: because we already have one of those in the panel
(04:41:05 PM) mikemaccana: fruchtschwert: I think we might want to avoid over-using the ubuntu logo
(04:41:06 PM) sam7: ok, but different of the main menu
(04:41:16 PM) andreasn: can't remember from the top of my head what we used for firefox3 right now :/
(04:41:17 PM) fruchtschwert: yeah, OK
(04:41:25 PM) mgunes: using the ubuntu logo is probably not a good idea for derivatives
(04:41:28 PM) sam7: with a scren in the midle
(04:41:58 PM) kwwii: if anyone thinks of anything, let me know :-)
(04:42:04 PM) ubotu: Launchpad bug 192778 in human-gtk-theme "Form buttons in Firefox 3 should have transparent corners (dup-of: 195929)" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/192778
(04:42:06 PM) ubotu: Launchpad bug 195929 in gtk2-engines-murrine "Cosmetic bug: rectangular white outline surrounding rounded buttons" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/195929
(04:42:11 PM) kwwii: or just draw the icons and then let me know, however you want :p
(04:42:12 PM) sam7: wy not, make othe icones for the derivative
(04:42:24 PM) dsargeant: laughing_man: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/GetInvolved
(04:42:36 PM) fruchtschwert: what about a + symbol ?
(04:42:44 PM) fruchtschwert: for "making things better" ?
(04:42:51 PM) sam7: ok, verry good
(04:43:03 PM) kwwii: not a bad idea, perhaps with something in the bg
(04:43:16 PM) sam7: yes !
(04:43:30 PM) fruchtschwert: do we have space for BG ? :-)
(04:43:38 PM) kwwii: so, last but not least is the DeviantArt Theme Competition stuff
(04:43:41 PM) mikemaccana: What abotu the existing hardy update logo
(04:43:56 PM) mikemaccana: The orange star-type shape with down arrow?
(04:44:00 PM) kwwii: mikemaccana: which one do you mean?
(04:44:12 PM) fruchtschwert: there is a down arrow in it ?
(04:44:15 PM) mikemaccana: kwwii: orange colored
(04:44:20 PM) kwwii: yeah, that is the one that we were asked to work on
(04:44:25 PM) fruchtschwert: i never recognized it
(04:44:47 PM) sam7: why not ?
(04:44:50 PM) mikemaccana: Ah. I quite liked it. It coneyed 'new' (the star shape) and 'downloads (the down arrow)
(04:45:05 PM) ***mikemaccana doesn't associate 'up' with updates the same way down is with downloads
(04:45:10 PM) dsargeant: I liked it too; it got my attention.
(04:45:16 PM) fruchtschwert: maybe I did not look close enough
(04:45:27 PM) fruchtschwert: it wasn't that bad, though
(04:45:27 PM) kwwii: mikemaccana: quite a few people said the same thing to me
(04:46:01 PM) mgunes: kwwii, is this what we're talking about -> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/384/ ?
(04:46:09 PM) mikemaccana: that they liked it? or that 'up' doesn't mean 'updates'?
(04:46:12 PM) dsargeant: is the objection becuase it looks like the application crashed icon?
(04:46:16 PM) kwwii: but let's get to the last topic and keep this meeting under and hour
(04:46:35 PM) kwwii: mgunes: yes! good start :-)
(04:47:05 PM) kwwii: mikemaccana is the originator of the idea
(04:47:11 PM) mikemaccana: Hey guys
(04:47:13 PM) laughing_man: i think the deviantart idea is a good one. There are allready tons of Linux screen shots all over that site from users who customize the desktop how they like it.
(04:47:43 PM) laughing_man: I think it's nice because it shows a full image and actually allows those who don't know all the techno-speak to see the product for themselves and weigh in on the details.
(04:47:55 PM) mikemaccana: The basic idea is that there's a wider community of creative commons artists that aren't currently ubuntu contriutors
(04:48:03 PM) laughing_man: I guess i'm just attracted to the graphical element of the idea.
(04:48:04 PM) kwwii: I think that reaching out to a group of artists like deviantArt is interesting
(04:48:15 PM) fruchtschwert: you should additionaly say which engine is to be used
(04:48:19 PM) kwwii: but there are several issues at hand
(04:48:28 PM) fruchtschwert: or several engines
(04:48:28 PM) laughing_man: kwwii, such as?
(04:48:29 PM) mikemaccana: We could engage them to make something great for 8.10 - and draw attention to ubuntu in that community as well
(04:48:34 PM) mgunes: the obvious objection would be the "too many cooks" syndrome
(04:48:48 PM) kwwii: making a theme and designing it over the course of years is more than can be dealt with in the course of one contest
(04:49:03 PM) mikemaccana: mgunes: I understand what you're saying, but it's a simple competition, with the intention that mark shuttleworth choose the winner
(04:49:22 PM) mikemaccana: (a few months out)
(04:49:32 PM) kwwii: beyond all the normal things which could go wrong there is a lot of responsiblity taken when making such decisions and they are made long term, not short term
(04:49:41 PM) mikemaccana: Deviantart are interested, and I have a meeting with them in the next few days
(04:49:57 PM) laughing_man: deviantart is brimming with talent.
(04:50:00 PM) mikemaccana: kwwii: Yep - per your suggestion I've limited the comp to wallpapers
(04:50:11 PM) kwwii: I would be more interested in seeing some parts of things done by such a process first
(04:50:19 PM) fruchtschwert: i think the people on the art list are not all brilliant designers .. they simply do their best, but with deviantart we could reach real professionals
(04:50:25 PM) kwwii: mikemaccana: comp?
(04:50:32 PM) mikemaccana: kwwii:competition.
(04:50:38 PM) mgunes: if this is to happen, we'd need to have a very well coordinated art direction process.
(04:50:39 PM) laughing_man: I agree with fruchtschwert...
(04:50:43 PM) mikemaccana: mgunes: Yup indeed
(04:50:46 PM) kwwii: mikemaccana: duh, right...english
(04:50:56 PM) laughing_man: you people have spent alot of time learning linux... artist like myself have spent alot of time learning design.
(04:51:12 PM) dsargeant: let our powers combine!
(04:51:15 PM) mikemaccana: kwwii: I've updated https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/deviantart-theme-competition
(04:51:15 PM) laughing_man: you may find the rare artist who is also a computer guru, but it's rare..
(04:51:21 PM) mikemaccana: after our last conversation
(04:51:27 PM) kwwii: mgunes: agreed, and in the end, with artwork, it is always a very tricky act to make things work well
(04:51:35 PM) mikemaccana: Entrants would submit an original wallpaper to DeviantArt, marking them with the tag 'ubuntu810'. Entries must be:
(04:51:35 PM) mikemaccana: * Beautiful.
(04:51:35 PM) mikemaccana: * Distinct.
(04:51:35 PM) mikemaccana: * CC licensed
(04:51:35 PM) mikemaccana: * Submitted by their artist
(04:51:36 PM) mikemaccana: * Work well as a wallpaper, with good contrast against white icon text, and not being too 'busy' to distract from the desktop contents
(04:51:39 PM) mikemaccana:  * Include a picture of the wallpaper on an Ubuntu desktop, with the entrant's preferred combination of icon / application / window themes.
(04:51:42 PM) mikemaccana: * Editable in Open Source tools (Inkscape or Gimp). This means Photoshop files are OK, but may not use layer effects.
(04:51:55 PM) mikemaccana: (suggest any other requirements in this meeting)
(04:52:43 PM) mgunes: kwwii, actually, as you'll probably confirm, we need a much better defined and communicated art direction process -in any case-.
(04:52:51 PM) kwwii: mikemaccana: that looks pretty good as far as I can see
(04:53:18 PM) fruchtschwert: how do other OSs make their themes .. where do they get their professionals ?
(04:53:22 PM) mikemaccana: kwwii: Do you know if mark wouldbe OK to judge a winner?
(04:53:25 PM) mgunes: mikemaccana, limiting to wallpaper is a good idea that will cut down on the broken hearts and fuss :)
(04:53:40 PM) laughing_man: fruchtschwert, they hire professional graphic designers.
(04:53:45 PM) mikemaccana: mgunes: Aye indeed, thank kwwii tho, that was his idea
(04:54:03 PM) laughing_man: they give them limits, and or a general theme.. and then sit back and see what they come up with
(04:54:11 PM) laughing_man: and veto or confirm from there.
(04:54:21 PM) laughing_man: it's the same process in all companies really..
(04:54:24 PM) mikemaccana: like fruchtschwert said, there's professional artists that use deviantart to promote themselves
(04:54:38 PM) laughing_man: mikemaccana, i disagree
(04:55:02 PM) mikemaccana: for example, if anyone likes dance music, the guy that does all the artwork for 'hed kandi'
(04:55:03 PM) laughing_man: i disagree completely.
(04:55:16 PM) sam7: only 6 wallpaper is a good number, and 3 GDM by default (Heron, elephant and one other / orange and blue)
(04:55:55 PM) mgunes: kwwii, I assume you'll be at UDS? do you plan to re-discuss the art-team spec?
(04:56:03 PM) laughing_man: sorry mike, i read that wrong.
(04:56:05 PM) mikemaccana: The artists get the benefit of having their work in front of 10 million-ish people, and the intention is to get some hardware prizes too
(04:56:11 PM) kwwii: mikemaccana: to be honest, I am not sure how Mark will react to the idea...I guess it depends on how it is presented and on which terms... I think that perhaps even something like our promise to "include the pic in Ubuntu with the inclusion in the default wallpaper selection" or such
(04:56:16 PM) sam7: why not using the starting music of ubuntustudio for the new LTS
(04:56:17 PM) mikemaccana: laughing_man: ok, no probs
(04:56:56 PM) kwwii: mikemaccana: and in any case I will have to discuss this with Mark to get the permission to think about it :-)
(04:57:07 PM) mikemaccana: kwwii: Sure. Please do. :^)
(04:57:30 PM) fruchtschwert: are we talking about themes or wallpapers ?
(04:57:32 PM) kwwii: mikemaccana: I'll stay in touch with you on this
(04:57:57 PM) kwwii: mgunes: yes, I will be at UDS
(04:58:00 PM) mikemaccana: fruchtschwert: comp is for wallpapers, but they must be submitted with a suggested set of other theme elements
(04:58:19 PM) kwwii: mikemaccana: I actually like that idea very much
(04:58:24 PM) mikemaccana: fruchtschwert: so we know what it looks like as a theme
(04:58:34 PM) kwwii:  as it offers more than just, what should the wallpaper be to the whole idea
(04:58:38 PM) laughing_man: first question they'll ask is
(04:58:38 PM) gp[]: sincerely at the moment, I don't know if a deviantart contest is a good idea....I think it is not simple
(04:59:03 PM) laughing_man: #1. do i need to have a complete theme laid out in a screen shot? or just have the elements fixed together with the wallpaper?
(04:59:06 PM) mikemaccana: kwwii: Asides from 'good contrast', 'not too busy', do we have any other stylistic guidelines?
(04:59:15 PM) dsargeant: inkscape used deviantart successfully for their about page, seems similar
(04:59:22 PM) sam7: each theme mus have its own icons (heron / elephant / other)
(04:59:24 PM) kwwii: laughing_man: naturally, all of that would be explained
(04:59:37 PM) laughing_man: well you didn't explain it well here :-P
(04:59:49 PM) mikemaccana: dsargeant: ah good - I might borrow some ideas from inkscape's cmp then
(05:00:04 PM) mikemaccana: That's probably helped inkscape get popular with artists in general
(05:00:27 PM) kwwii: mikemaccana: yeah, plenty...the technical limitations aside things have to fit all across the computer experience (boot to shutdown), certain ubuntu specific things are definitely desired, etc
(05:00:54 PM) kwwii: and sometimes just explaining all that is enough to ruin things :-D
(05:00:54 PM) dsargeant: mikemaccana: see http://inkscapers.deviantart.com/journal/16001755/
(05:01:10 PM) mikemaccana: kwwii: Does the theme need to reflect the 'linux for humans' concept in some way (I guess not since fela kuti doesn't)
(05:01:11 PM) fruchtschwert: can't ubuntu search for professional designers wich are known to be good and willing to do some work without money ?
(05:01:26 PM) fruchtschwert: that would be great but probably not easy
(05:01:31 PM) mikemaccana: fruchtschwert: DeviantArt is a great way for them to come to us.
(05:01:44 PM) kwwii: fruchtschwert: unrealistic
(05:01:53 PM) laughing_man: kwwii.. not really
(05:02:05 PM) sam7: fela kuti is werry good (i name it "heron" in this chan)
(05:02:16 PM) kwwii: mikemaccana: no, that is a general idea behind things but not too be taken too literaly
(05:02:46 PM) DanaG: Oh yeah, I have another idea about artwork:  have any of you seen the wallpaper-slideshow thing Fedora 8 does, where the wallpaper gradually fades over the day to match sunrise, noon, sunset, and night?  I'd love to see that implemented in Ubuntu.
(05:03:01 PM) sam7: what do you think about my propositions ?
(05:03:18 PM) kwwii: DanaG: yes we have looked into it and it does not look like we can do it for a couple of reason
(05:03:21 PM) kwwii: s
(05:03:30 PM) kwwii: my s ran on there :-(
(05:03:35 PM) sam7: werry good idea DanaG
(05:03:39 PM) mikemaccana: kwwii: Do we allow an unlimited palette (keep in mind the winner would still be determined by mark) or limit it to existing colors?
(05:03:54 PM) DanaG: Fedora doesn't use gnome-settings-daemon, I think.  I haven't any clue what they DO use, though.
(05:03:55 PM) kwwii: mikemaccana: nope, there would be a defined palette
(05:04:21 PM) fruchtschwert: fixed palette is better ..
(05:04:29 PM) kwwii: mikemaccana: I have a palette at hand which I can give you
(05:04:40 PM) mikemaccana: kwwii: Thanks, please email.
(05:04:40 PM) kwwii: I need to make installable versions for inkscape and gimp
(05:04:51 PM) laughing_man: kwii i'd like the palette as well.
(05:05:08 PM) kwwii: laughing_man: once I get the files ready I will post them to the list
(05:05:10 PM) sam7: Is it possible to do something for dualscreen ?
(05:05:12 PM) kwwii: and put them on the wiki
(05:05:18 PM) laughing_man: what list?
(05:05:24 PM) gp[]: yes, fixed palette is better for a contest
(05:05:27 PM) mikemaccana: laughing_man: mailing list
(05:05:27 PM) kwwii: laughing_man: the email list ;-)
(05:05:41 PM) laughing_man: okay i'll sign up for the mailing list
(05:05:50 PM) mikemaccana: I gather the palette is more orange than brown these days?
(05:05:51 PM) DanaG: Oh yeah, can somebody link me to a mailing-list discussion of that slideshow thing, if in fact there is one?
(05:05:55 PM) fruchtschwert: list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
(05:05:57 PM) kwwii: laughing_man: check out the wiki for all the iformation on joining the list, other stuff, etc
(05:06:09 PM) sam7: for exemple, 1 theme in 1 desktop, and an other 1 in the other desktop / screen
(05:06:14 PM) laughing_man: kwwii, i will and i'll have my students do the same.
(05:06:54 PM) dsargeant: laughing_man: extra credit for a winning design?
(05:07:21 PM) laughing_man: dsargent. A winning design for their portfolio is all the extra credit they need really.
(05:07:26 PM) gp[]: sam7: it's another question
(05:07:54 PM) kwwii: laughing_man: let me know if there is any way I can help with that :-)
(05:08:12 PM) sam7: is ti possible to make different theme and wallpaper for different desktop and for dualscreen ?
(05:08:19 PM) laughing_man: kwwii: just get me details about the palette and the specifications.
(05:08:24 PM) DanaG left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection).
(05:08:25 PM) laughing_man: that you're looking for.
(05:08:27 PM) kwwii: sam7: dual screen situations are very hard to deal with
(05:08:28 PM) laughing_man: and a deadline.
(05:08:29 PM) fruchtschwert: sam7: don't think thats a good idea .. maybe a wallpaper, which spans across the screens
(05:08:47 PM) fruchtschwert: but theme should be unique
(05:08:57 PM) sam7: why ?
(05:09:27 PM) sam7: too difficult to make ?
(05:09:40 PM) DanaG [n=dana@71-9-52-25.static.snlo.ca.charter.com] entered the room.
(05:09:41 PM) sam7: i dont know how to make it
(05:09:50 PM) kwwii: laughing_man: 8.10 is October 2008 so sometime by the middle of September is the cut-off
(05:09:53 PM) andreasn: I'm sorry but I have to run off really soon
(05:10:02 PM) fruchtschwert: it has to be professional .. and not polarizing
(05:10:07 PM) kwwii: andreasn: thanks for stopping by
(05:10:19 PM) laughing_man: kwwii, i'm going to join the mailing list now.. :-)
(05:10:20 PM) fruchtschwert: and i think 2 themes are polarizing a bit
(05:10:21 PM) kwwii: I think that we are pretty much done here for tonight
(05:10:30 PM) fruchtschwert: is that the right word ?
(05:10:36 PM) kwwii: laughing_man: cool, you can ask pretty much anything there
(05:10:53 PM) kwwii: so, thanks everyone for coming
(05:11:08 PM) kwwii: I'll post minutes to the meeting in a bit
(05:11:12 PM) andreasn: kwwii: sorry for arriving a bit later
(05:11:16 PM) fruchtschwert: thank you for inviting the community
(05:11:19 PM) kwwii: next time will be more organized, I promise
(05:11:21 PM) DanaG: Oh hey, is the mailing list also available as a newsgroup?
(05:11:21 PM) sam7: the  minimum is one wallpaper for one desktop (i think)
(05:11:32 PM) andreasn: kwwii: have a date for the next meeting?
(05:11:54 PM) kwwii: andreasn: in one month
(05:11:59 PM) andreasn: ok, great
(05:12:03 PM) kwwii: see you soon
(05:12:05 PM) andreasn: I have to run! later!
(05:12:06 PM) kwwii: night all

MeetingLogs/ArtworkTeam/20080309 (last edited 2008-08-06 17:00:39 by localhost)