09:00 Kamion     elmo: here?
09:00 Kamion     mako: here?
=== Kyral shuts up
09:00 Kamion     no sabdfl it seems, I imagine he's travelling
=== ompaul [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:00 Kamion     still
09:00 elmo       I'm here
09:00 Kyral      Yah did anyone catch the bit about him in DW Weekly?
=== seb128 [n=seb128@ubuntu/member/seb128] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:00 nalioth    robotgeek: started what?
09:00 elmo       and yeah sabdfl is, flying according to the board in the office
09:01 robotgeek  nalioth: :)
09:01 Kamion     Kyral: please move off-topic stuff elsewhere, personally I'd like to get
                 this meeting over reasonably quickly so I can enjoy the evening :-)
09:01 mako       Kamion: yes
09:01 Kamion     excellent, quorum
09:01 Kyral      Kamion: it was my last bit :P
09:01 Seveas     coolness
                 Increase the number of IRC ops/moderators in the major Ubuntu channels,
09:01 Kamion     especially #ubuntu. The 24hr nature of the channel - and the fact that
                 the current ops are all busy people - has meant inadequate moderator
                 coverage at times -- Madpilot
09:01 Seveas     let's get started
09:01 mako       a minute early even
09:01 Kamion     Seveas proposed Brian Burger and Paul O'Malley
09:02 Seveas     madpilot can not attend the meeting, but the request is clear
09:02 Kamion     we've talked to Brian before for membership; I think Paul too although I
                 don't remember the conversation clearly
09:02 Kamion     do we have any current #ubuntu ops here who can give us the current ops
09:02 Seveas     Brian Burger is a member, Paul not yes
=== nalioth [n=Apple@ubuntu/member/pdpc.bronze.nalioth] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== Burgwork avoids talk of nepotism
09:02 ompaul     Kamion, no I have never addressed this
09:02 mako       i spent a decent amount of time with paul in the past
09:02 Kamion     ompaul: o
09:02 Kamion     k
09:02 Seveas     Kamion, /msg chanserv access #ubuntu list
09:03 ompaul     mako, I still owe you coffee :)
09:03 robotgeek
09:03 Kamion     ah yes, this week it works for non-ops
09:03 Seveas     Kamion, during the bot attacks I set the 'secure' option on - didn't know
                 it made all lists unavailable. I changed that when I heard this
09:04 Kamion     I agree that that list is probably not quite extensive enough for the
                 current size and activity level of #ubuntu
09:04 Seveas     and quite a few on that list aren't very active in #ubuntu
09:04 mako       absolutely
09:04 Burgwork   I noticed that as well
09:04 Kamion     we could check with those people and remove them if they agree
09:05 Kamion     there's not much point having inactive ops around
09:05 mako       well, the currently problem is going to be solved by removing people
09:05 Seveas     Ok, I'll poke around for that
09:05 mako       that might be a good idea moving forward but we solve the immediate
                 problem first
09:05 Kamion     what timezones do Brian and Paul occupy?
09:05 Seveas     is it ok to give myself a higher level in #ubuntu so I don't have to poke
                 jdub every time?
09:06 Seveas     paul is .ie, brian .ca
=== sivang glimpses at the CC meeting while in heavy hacking on HUB.
09:06 ompaul     I am in Dublin
09:06 Kyral      Might I make a suggestion? That we have an Op for every Timezone (at
                 least one per zone)?
09:06 Burgwork   madpilot is -8, same as mdz, robitaille and myself
09:06 Kamion     Kyral: bit tricky for e.g. UTC-2 ;-)
09:06 Kyral      eh?
=== nalioth is Marek Spruell
09:07 Seveas     Kyral, we need a few more from .au and related, if you have candidates:
                 talk to us
09:07 lucas      I'm not really happy with the idea of having non-members being ops
09:07 Kyral      oyah lol
=== Kamion shifts ompaul a few hundred miles west into the Atlantic Ocean
09:07 Kamion     there
09:07 Kyral      Seveas: it was just an idea lol
=== ompaul gets wet
09:07 Kyral      I mean itt would mean someone was up all the time
=== irvin is on UTC+8
09:07 Seveas     lucas, generally I'd agree but for ompaul I'm happy to make an exception
                 (and he should be poked to apply for membership)
09:07 Kamion     we were ok there while bob2 and daniels were active
09:07 jjesse     is it mostly australia/asian time that is missing?
09:08 Kyral      someone poke ajmitch for it :P
09:08 Seveas     jjesse, that part of the world is 'understaffed'
09:08 Kamion     I have no objection to Madpilot, and perhaps we can add ompaul pending
                 his membership
09:09 Kamion     but somebody really ought to look out for good people in the understaffed
09:09 ompaul     Kamion, consider me poked
=== robotgeek is a kop, and a non-member?
09:09 Kamion     I don't think we can do that here
09:09 Seveas     Kamion, then let me repeat my question: is it ok for me to give myself a
                 higher level in #ubuntu so I don't have to poke jdub every time?
09:09 ompaul     Kamion, I'll stick it in for the next one
09:09 Seveas     robotgeek, #kubuntu ops are generally not appointed by the CC
09:10 robotgeek  Seveas: hmm, okay.
09:10 Riddell    I appoint them
09:10 Kamion     Seveas: I would be happy with that, but you should check with jdub that
                 he doesn't mind
09:10 Seveas     Kamion, will do
09:10 Seveas     do we need a quorum vote for these 2 issue or can we continue?
09:10 Kamion     (and mention that I recommend having more than one person who can create
                 ops, perhaps)
09:10 Kamion     elmo, mako: any objections to Madpilot and ompaul as #ubuntu ops?
09:10 mako       absolutely no objections
09:11 elmo       no
09:11 Seveas     ok, next
09:11 Seveas     WikiLicensing
09:12 Seveas     "ready to go" means that the E-mail will be sent soon?
09:13 Kamion     hang on Seveas :)
09:13 Kyral      lol
09:13 Kamion     mako: did you ever get a chance to talk to that lawyer?
09:14 Kamion     about the wikipedia PD-self template?
09:14 Kamion     I rewrote the e-mail earlier, and would appreciate elmo and/or mako
                 eyeballing it
09:14 mako       i think i asked greg and didn't hear back.. i should email SFLC or the
                 wikipedia lawyer who i met a couple weeks ago
09:14 Kamion
                 Someone make sure I am right on this, we are considering a CC-PD license
09:14 Kyral      (I apologize for asking this almost every meeting, school is owning my
09:14 mako       ok
                 there is still a technical task to be done in extracting those email
09:14 heno       addresses from the launchpad and moin records. So in that sense we are
                 not ready to go
                 Kyral: more or less yes, see
09:15 Kamion
                 to catch up
09:15 Seveas     Kyral, yes, CC-PD with additional statements for countries where PD is
                 not allowed
=== ekp [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:15 Kamion     well, just PD, not CC-PD really
09:15 Kamion     it hardly makes a difference for PD :)
09:15 Kyral      Kamion: ty
09:15 mako       yes
09:16 Kamion     heno: is that a big task?
09:16 elmo       it's a bit comma tastic, but looks ok on first read
=== Hobbsee [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== jpatrick [n=patrick@ubuntu/member/jpatrick] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:16 Kamion     I tend to overuse commas, feel free to reword as necessary
09:16 heno       Kamion: probably not for someone eho knows both systems. It's slightly
                 beyond me though, I'm affraid
09:16 Hobbsee    morning all, sorry i'm late, i dont feel too well today
09:17 mako       jean-baptiste soufron, the primary lawyer for wikipedia, should be online
                 soon and i can corner him
09:17 Kamion     heno: do we have somebody who knows how to do both, or will it be a
                 coordination task?
09:17 elmo       Kamion: it's, okay, I'm, not, really, fussed
=== Tonio_ [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:17 Kamion     mako: if you could let mdke know what the result of that is, that'd be
09:17 mako       Kamion: ok
09:18 mako       it looks fine to me
09:18 Kamion     ok, I propose we let mdke coordinate the rest of this and move on, then
09:18 mako       my major concerns before seem to be addressed
=== mako nods to Kamion
09:18 heno       I think Gustavo or Adam should have no problem with it
=== LinuxJones [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:18 Kamion     elmo: my wife says "now if you'd written that it would only have had two
                 commas in it"
=== Kamion scratches his head
09:19 Kamion     ok, betterwikidocs
09:19 Seveas     BetterWikiDocs specification - can a server be made available to deploy
                 this? (mdke and hno73) <-- Doesn't sound like a CC issue to me, TB rather
09:19 mako       neither really
09:19 elmo       err, yeah, neither
09:19 Kamion     I have to say I think it would be better to move the developer
09:19 Kamion     than to move the user stuff
09:19 mako       i'talk to mark/jane
09:19 Seveas     kamion++
09:20 Kamion     it's much easier to track down all developers and say "please use
        now" or whatever
09:20 mako       sure
09:20 Seveas     the wiki has already moved several times
09:20 Kamion     we had, I never really worked out why we merged
09:20 Seveas     having a also attracts new developers ;)
09:21 heno       Kamion: but there is also lots of stuff that is neither developer stuff
                 nor docs, but people's private pages and such
09:21 Kyral      hehe
=== sorush20 [] has joined
09:21 heno       'my experience with ubuntu' etc
09:21 sorush20   hi
09:21 sorush20   comuunity council people..
09:21 Seveas     heno, then et the docteam fold them into the official docs, official docs
                 shouldn't be a wiki...
=== mdz [] has joined
09:21 jjesse     which is what is happening with correct?
09:21 jjesse
09:21 Seveas     'them' being the good documentation wikipage
09:21 Kamion     heno: right, not sure I have a good answer for that
09:21 mdz        I'm not particularly fussed either way about which wiki the specs go in,
                 so long as the links from Launchpad work
09:22 Burgwork   Seveas, we are looking at a long term plan for better wiki docs. Moving
                 them is the first step of that
09:22 Kamion     things start out as randomly-hacked-together pages, and move up to the
                 status of documentation
09:22 heno       Kamion: but, yes moving the dev stuff would also help
09:22 Burgwork   Seveas, as the doc team cannot agree on further steps, but we do agree on
                 moving it
09:22 Kamion     mdz: and as long as we stop moving them at some point. :-)
09:22 heno       if we had specs in a separate wiki we could structure it better
09:23 heno       dapper/SpecName
09:23 Seveas     Burgwork, then I think the plan should be worked out completely before we
                 start moving things around for no apparent reason
09:23 Kamion     heno: also seems to me that the search problems could be addressed by
                 cleverer searching that knew how to search multiple sites
09:23 Kamion     assuming they were both on the same machine, I guess
09:23 heno       and then it would be obvious what generation it was
09:23 Burgwork   Seveas, we can't agree on two wikis or one for the doc wiki
09:23 heno       we could do that anyway of course
09:24 heno       Kamion: the 'search problem' is that you get too many hits, not too few
                 let's assume we had a separate "official documentation wiki". what would
09:24 Kamion     the process be for migrating a page somebody hacked together to the doc
09:24 Burgwork   Kamion, that is the part under contention
09:24 Kamion     heno: I'm referring to "users having to search more than one place" in
09:25 heno       they would be encouraged to start it there in the first place
09:25 heno       (sounds unrealistic actually)
09:25 Seveas     heno, great, so another wiki filled with half-baked pages....
09:25 heno       that would clearly work better for devs
09:25 jjesse     the "official" docs would have to be editable (if that's a word) by only
                 wiki team members
09:25 Kamion     yeah, that doesn't sound overly plausible to me I must say
09:25 Burgwork   Seveas, I disagree
09:25 Kamion     jjesse: which will exclude a lot of contributors
09:26 robotgeek  jjesse: which kind beats the point of a wiki
09:26 Kamion     people start out editing a few pages of the wiki and *then* become wiki
                 team members
09:26 Kamion     maybe
09:26 jjesse     but if the "official" docs are moved from the more generic docs
09:26 mako       why don't we just have pages with categories
=== HiddenWolf [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:26 jjesse     then they can be better maintained
09:26 Seveas     mako++
09:26 mako       with articles marked as good
                 well look at it as wiki --> docs so in the wiki it is a $factoid if it
09:26 ompaul     makes it to docs or there is a better existing doc then the wiki page
                 gets a reference to the other page at the top and a log of visits but
                 that is all too much for here
09:26 Seveas     but then we need people who organize that
09:26 mako       wikipedia has 1,000,000 articles
09:26 mako       or near that in english
09:27 Kamion     and most of the wikipedia articles I ever actually hit in practice are
                 really good
09:27 Burgwork   mostly the good articles are marked by not having CategoryCleanup on them
09:27 mako       and it's prefectly readable because they have many categories
09:27 ompaul     what does wiki.ubuntu have in it?
09:27 mako       Kamion: yes, but they also have articles marked as "good" and "featured"
09:27 Burgwork   ompaul, everything, that is the problem
09:27 Kamion     mako: yeah
09:27 ompaul     Burgwork, no numbers
09:27 mako       Kamion: and if you limit your search to those, you'll get good stuff
09:27 mako       the point is, that there's no need to create seperate wikis
09:27 ompaul     Burgwork, if you measure it you can do something with it
09:27 heno       using categories doesn't solve the search problem
09:27 mako       you may really want EVERYTHING on a topic
09:27 Burgwork   we still have the issue of seperation of help content
09:27 mako       heno: it does if you can limit your search to within a particular
09:27 Seveas     categories and 'good/bad/needs work' tags will help
09:27 Kamion     heno: it does if you make the search exclude CategoryCleanup by default
09:27 Kamion     e.g.
09:28 Burgwork   people simply don't go to for help
09:28 heno       unless we improved the search to include/exclude certain pages
09:28 mako       Burgwork: what makes you think that having they'll go to the new split
                 set of wikis then?
09:28 Burgwork   Kamion, but I want my searches to include it
09:28 jjesse     Burgwork: i disagree
09:28 Kamion     Burgwork: --> "by default" <--
09:28 Mithrandir Burgwork: "default"
09:28 heno       right, but that requires development
09:28 Kyral      most of our "profile" pages also on are the Wiki yes?
09:28 jjesse     Burgwork: i start at w.u.c and then do a google search if i can't find it
09:28 mako       heno: that is precisely what i'm suggesting
09:28 lucas      I'd prefer to have a CategoryUserDoc rather than a CategoryCleanup (means
                 pages would be out by default)
09:28 Kamion     heno: I don't think we can get away from that - it's not a trivial
09:28 Burgwork   Kamion, I was pointing out that there are two many use cases for the main
09:29 Burgwork   s/two/too
09:29 heno       mako: I think that would be good
09:29 Seveas     Kyral, they (should) have "CategoryHomepage", easy to filter too
                 the time necessary to have moin have a search that is restricted by
09:29 mako       categories is probably not significantly less than the time needed to
                 maintain a farm of wikis
09:29 heno       but a separate spec perhaps
09:29 Kamion     Burgwork: dunno, I'm beginning to think that's a feature
09:29 Burgwork   Kamion, no it is not when you run across a spec when you want help
09:29 Kamion     Burgwork: that's a search problem
09:29 Mithrandir mako: you'd want cross-wiki search, though.
09:29 mako       specs *should* be marked as specs
09:29 mako       and docs should be marked as docs
09:29 Burgwork   then we need to be ruthless about moving specs under a main spec page
09:29 mako       and there should be a prominent link to a doc only search
09:30 Burgwork   so that the link would be
09:30 mako       Burgwork: sure
09:30 jjesse     the doc team then should be the one always cleaning up the wiki or
                 expected to keep the wiki clean
                 Burgwork: it's a feature that, when we have a new project that needs wiki
09:30 Kamion     pages, it can just start rather than having to get a new wiki domain set
09:30 Kamion     Burgwork: that would be fine
09:30 heno       splitting it up also helps solve the scaling problem though
09:30 mako       Burgwork: we'd have be ruthless about moving them off the wiki in the
                 alternative situation
09:30 Burgwork   still ooks like a hack to me
09:30 Kamion     we'd have to go through and fix up links from launchpad
09:30 Kamion     Burgwork: it's what categories are FOR. :-)
09:30 mako       well, why not in-text categories
09:30 mako       like WP
09:30 heno       which is that the wiki will eventually outgrow the hardware
09:31 mako       we could just have a {{spec}} tag or something
09:31 heno       elmo: ^ ?
09:31 Kamion     heno: I don't think developer specifications are going to be the cause of
09:31 Burgwork   Kamion, yes, but what does a CategoryNetworking do on the main wiki?
                 specs? docs?
09:31 mako       the way they're implemented doesn't really matter
09:31 Burgwork   do you see the issue?
09:31 Kamion     Burgwork: no
09:31 Kamion     Burgwork: perhaps you could explain better?
09:31 mako       Burgwork: both
09:31 Burgwork   mako, that is much much worse
09:31 mako       Burgwork: you can belong to CategoryNetworking and CategorySpec
09:31 robotgeek  i am sure the search can be hacked to exclude specs, provided they are
                 all in one Category
09:32 elmo       heno: I don't think that's a good reason _by itself_ to split stuff up,
                 we've plenty of avenues to explore to scale stuff up before going there
09:32 Burgwork   but then those that want to search specs are screwed
09:32 Kamion     I don't see a lot of value of a spec having any other category
09:32 robotgeek  with an option to search advanced?
09:32 heno       elmo: ok, thanks
09:32 Burgwork   I do
09:32 Kamion     there aren't enough of them for that, and they're generally clearly named
09:32 ompaul     search should not discriminate
09:32 mako       alright
09:32 Burgwork   I want to see all networkign specs
09:32 mako       Kamion: ok
09:32 Burgwork   another major issue is time by doc team members cleaning non-dcos on the
09:32 Burgwork   I have easily spent 20 plus hours doing so
09:32 Kamion     specs are the responsibility of the development team
09:33 Burgwork   if the wiki was split, I wouldn't have to do any of those
09:33 mako       Burgwork: you're trading a complex searching problem for a fragmentation
09:33 Kamion     the wiki team should feel free to punt those to us
=== mdke_ [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:33 Kamion     you don't have to do them *now* - you can tell development to sort it out
=== sistpoty [n=sistpoty@ubuntu/member/sistpoty] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:33 mdke_      evening, sorry for lateness
09:33 Kamion     if everyone does their own specs it doesn't take long to do whatever it
09:33 Burgwork   realistically, that is not an option
09:33 Kamion     why not?
09:34 Kamion     well, s/tell/ask/, but anyway
=== Madpilot [n=bburger@ubuntu/member/madpilot] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:34 Burgwork   because often the development team does page editing/moving/creation
                 without a holistic view
09:34 Burgwork   and that is not their fault
09:34 Madpilot   hi everyone
09:34 Kamion     you can have the holistic view and ask other people to do the actual
                 shuffling of their own specs
09:34 Burgwork   ie, they create a page that causes the doc team grief, without even
                 knowing about it
09:34 Kamion     if you take work on yourself, you can't blame other people for you doing
                 all the work :)
09:35 Kamion     the doc team has, to my knowledge, never communicated those issues to the
                 development team
09:35 Burgwork   yes, I have not done so
09:35 Kamion     I suggest doing so :)
09:35 Kamion     then it will be less likely to be a problem in future
09:35 Burgwork   there is another problem, that of recent changes
09:35 mako       Burgwork: some of these problems can be solved with education :)
09:35 mako       don't use a technical solution to a social problem
09:36 Kamion     RecentChanges is mostly used by wiki contributors, I'm guessing
                 it is currently very difficult to seperate docs out from non-docs when
09:36 Burgwork   looking at what has changed. Which means a person realisitically has to
                 look at all changes
09:36 Kamion     now that sounds like something amenable to a technical solution ...
=== mako nods Kamion
09:36 Mithrandir enhance the recentchanges page by putting the category there too, then.
=== Burgwork raises Mediawiki
09:36 mako       Burgwork: what about it?
09:37 Burgwork   mediawiki is designed for presentation wikis, ala documentation and
09:37 sorush20   where is the adgenda
09:37 mdke       is this a general discussion of the BetterWikiDocs spec?
09:37 mako       sorush20: in the topic
                 It is hard to differentiate docs from non-docs. Good docs from bad docs,
09:37 HiddenWolf and doc's don't have a mandatory "applies to $version" thing, so it is
                 trial and error to figure out if it'll work a lot of the time.
09:37 Burgwork   clear seperation of talk and article, watchlists, internal wiki
09:37 heno       mdke: I emailed you a transcript so far
09:37 mako       HiddenWolf: the docteam can tag docs as "notable" if you'd like
09:38 mako       or with version information
09:38 Burgwork   for instance, if someone edits a page in our wiki, I have no way of
                 communicating with them without knowing their email
09:38 mdke       heno, ok thanks
09:38 mako       Burgwork: what is the MW funcionatliy you are missing here?
09:38 mako       Burgwork: talk pages?
09:38 ompaul     sorush20,
09:38 Burgwork   mako, internal wiki communication via user talk pages
                 mako: I'm not much of a guru on the wiki, but a good way to seperate good
09:39 HiddenWolf docs from bad docs and figure out if it'll work on your version would
                 really help.
09:39 Burgwork   mako, some of which can be hacked into our wiki, but some cannot easily
09:39 heno       Burgwork: it should be fairly easy to set up better provision for talk
09:39 Madpilot   HiddenWolf: the versioning thing is a writing problem, not as much a
                 technical issue, AFAIK
09:39 mdke       heno, ok, looks like discussion has just spiralled out off topic :(
09:39 mako       Burgwork: so *user* talk pages
09:39 heno       we could even use the comment macro
09:40 sorush20   who is the meeting leader?
09:40 mako       Burgwork: i've never found user talk pages hugely useful in WP personally
09:40 Burgwork   mako, heno, Kamion lets move on
09:40 mako       sorush20: myself, kamion and elmo are the council members
09:40 Burgwork   heno, can you and I chat about what I would like out of our wiki after
                 the meeting?
09:40 Burgwork   mako, Kamion this spec needs further work before being brough back before
                 the CC
09:41 Kamion     yeah, I agree
=== mako nods to Burgwork
09:41 Seveas     This is going way beyond CC territory...
                 Burgwork: I have no idea how the mediawiki thingy works, but I know that
09:41 Mithrandir if you tried to communicate with me through editing some wiki page, you'd
                 fail, unless it gets sent to me by email or tells me on IRC.  How does
                 the usertalk thingy work in mediawiki?
09:41 Kamion     it would be nice if we could be presented with a decision to make, more
                 than an open-ended discussion :)
09:41 heno       Burgwork: sure, but perhaps we should do it on a mailing list so others
                 can participate
09:41 mdke       Kamion, the topic was about the server
09:41 Kamion     true
09:41 mako       FWIW, it's an interesting discussion :)
09:41 Burgwork   heno, ok
09:41 Kamion     elmo: can you answer that much (unless you did so already and I missed
                 it) and we can move on?
09:42 Kamion     as in, assuming it were determined to be worthwhile
09:42 mdke       :-(
09:42 sorush20   have you decied to have more ops in the ubuntu channels?
09:42 elmo       phone, brb
09:42 Seveas     sorush20, yes, that has been earlier on the agenda
09:43 Seveas     ok, let's move on then, elmo can answer when whe gets back :-)
09:43 Seveas     robotgeek, tepsipakki and Hobbsee are the new member candidates
09:43 Seveas     robotgeek, give us your 3-line summary please
=== robotgeek is Venkat Raghavan
09:43 mako       brilliant
                 I am VenkatRaghavan. I currently live in New Jersey (moved from Texas 2
09:43 robotgeek  days ago!), though originally from Hyderabad, India. Been using Ubuntu
                 since the Hoary release. Yes, I dumped OS X for Ubuntu!
                 I am a member of NewUserMentors, WikiTeam and the Kubuntu Team. I have
                 done lot of irc support in the past (sometimes more than 10 hours a
09:44 robotgeek  day!), and in the recent months started getting involved in the
                 Documentation work. More details on my wiki page at
                 In the immediate future, I want to make sure Kubuntu Desktop Guide is
                 complete in time for Dapper. I also want to more involve myself more in
09:44 robotgeek  the Documentation Team activities. Since I am an Engineer by profession,
                 I want to improve my packaging skills so that I may package to help the
                 Motu Science Team.
09:44 robotgeek  :)
09:44 jjesse     robotgeek has been working hard and doing a great job on the kubuntu
                 desktop guide
09:44 Seveas     robotgeek gets several \o/ from me for IRC work
09:44 jjesse     he's picked up a project that was sitting still
09:44 Seveas     he's very active
09:44 jpatrick   Seveas: ++
09:44 mdke       robotgeek is already a great member of the documentation team, he's
                 contributed loads of wiki pages and good documentation, as jjesse says
09:44 nalioth    robotgeek is quite helpful on the irc channels
=== Burgwork can also vouch for robotgeek
=== Kyral too
=== irvin too!
=== manicka too
=== Madpilot likewise
09:45 robotgeek  wow
09:45 mako       yeah, wow
=== ompaul says he is top guy
09:45 Kyral      basically if you say no, you have a lot of angry people now ;P
09:45 Madpilot   robotgeek: the whole cheering section has come out :P
09:45 sorush20   robotgeek: has helped me too alot
09:46 Hobbsee    hehe doesnt seem like i need to say anything
09:46 Riddell    I support robotgeek, he's doing good work on the kubuntu desktop guide
09:46 jpatrick   I've seen him a lot on irc
09:46 Kyral      He's helpful in #ubuntu, he has done good work with EasyUbuntu
09:47 Kyral      and he's kept me from losing it a couple ttimes (big job lol)
09:47 ompaul     his other work has saved me and others plenty of man hours
09:47 ompaul     s/man/person/
09:47 ompaul     forgive the aged
=== robotgeek waits, anxiously
09:48 manicka    his work on the new wifi wiki page is outstanding
09:48 Kamion     looks like sustained contribution to me and there seems to be a fair bit
                 of wiki work there
09:48 Seveas     robotgeek, probably mako, Kamion and elmo are now reading your wikipage,
                 LP profile etc
09:48 Kamion     robotgeek: what's happening with EasyUbuntu at the moment?
09:49 LaserJock  robotgeek is active in the docteam and has also expressed interest in
                 doing some packaging for MOTU Science
09:49 Kyral      LaserJock: he has? *blink*
09:49 robotgeek  Kamion: fixing a few remaining bugs, i'm quite new to python
09:49 Kyral      yah you guys are still waiting for me to package it no? :/
09:49 sorush20   meetings are not as fast as I would expect them to be
09:49 mako       agreed
09:50 Kamion     robotgeek: well, I'm more asking what the current state is from the
                 perspective of somebody who knows nothing about it
09:50 LaserJock  sorry, got some lag :(
09:50 mako       looks good so far
09:50 Kamion     last I heard was when the automatix/forums stuff came up here
09:50 Kamion     which probably wasn't the best advert :)
09:50 robotgeek  Kamion: it works well, it needs to be packaged in a deb format. Kyral is
09:51 mako       yeah, this is good stuff
09:51 Seveas     Kamion, easyubuntu is nothing like automatix fortunatel
09:51 mako       robotgeek: how long have you been involved?
09:51 robotgeek  mako: for about 5+ months now
09:51 nalioth    Kamion: robotgeek was involved in easybreezy, a fork of automatix. the
                 project has since merged back with easyubuntu (the original)
09:51 mako       great
09:51 mako       well, i'm happy with membership
09:51 sorush20   I find automatix to work better than easy ubuntu..
09:51 Seveas     sorush20, -ETOPIC
09:51 Kyral      haha, beat me to it Seveas
09:52 _jason     wait, I can say robotgeek is awesome too :)  He's always on irc and
                 working hard on easyubuntu
09:52 Kamion     sorush20: ... this is why meetings take ages
=== Hirion [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:52 robotgeek  thanks _jason :)
09:52 Kamion     I'm also happy with membership
09:53 Seveas     did elmo return already?
09:54 Seveas     if not, should we move on and let him catch up later?
09:54 elmo       sorry, back
09:54 Seveas     ah, cool
=== LaserJoc1 [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:54 elmo       move on, I'll catch up
09:54 Seveas     ok
09:54 Seveas     next up: tepsipakki
=== tepsipakki is Timo Aaltonen
09:55 Seveas     idle tim 40 minutes, so he could be around
09:55 Seveas     ah
09:55 tepsipakki let me get organized ;)
                 I'm an UNIX administrator working part time for the Computing Centre of
                 Helsinki University of Technology in Finland. Current work involves
09:55 tepsipakki administering 200+ Linux (Debian Sarge atm) workstations and some
                 Tru64-UNIX servers. When not working, I'm trying to finish my master's
                 degree (major: semiconductors and materials of electronics).
                 Interests include GNOME, NFSv4, installer, sysadmin tools etc. I've made
09:55 tepsipakki some patches here and there, most of it is documented on my wikipage:
09:55 Kamion     I've been working off and on with tepsipakki on various automatic
                 installation issues for some time
09:56 Kamion     he's more willing than most to dive in and get his hands dirty, and has
                 been very useful at nagging me to follow up on things
09:56 Kyral      Jeez, where were you guys when I was installing Ubuntu on 20 lab
09:56 Kyral      ;P
09:56 tepsipakki =)
09:56 tepsipakki I have a system that only needs to be documented somewhere
09:56 Hobbsee    Kyral: off at the pub, why do you ask? :P
09:56 Seveas     Hobbsee, Kyral: please stick to the topic
09:56 Kyral      sorry...
09:56 Hobbsee    sorry
09:57 Kamion     ... so I'm more than happy with tepsipakki for membership
09:57 mako       yes.. tepsipakki is great by me
09:57 Kamion     tepsipakki: (incidentally lamont's looking at getting NFSv4 support into
                 mount, and we may get it in before feature freeze with any luck)
09:58 elmo       ack robotgeek
09:58 mdke       well done robotgeek
09:58 Seveas     elmo, thanks
09:58 tepsipakki Kamion: yes, I just received info that a new version of util-linux is in
                 sid now
09:58 Seveas     welcome robotgeek!
09:58 robotgeek  thanks all!
                 WRT server, heno can always have a server if he asks for it, but given
09:58 elmo       this isn't exactly uncontentious, I'd like some higher power sign in
                 before any migration off of the main wiki happens
09:58 irvin      congrats robotgeek... it's about time ;-)
09:58 jpatrick   congrats robotgeek
09:58 robotgeek  Riddell: that was fast :)
09:59 elmo       ack tepsipakki too
09:59 mdke       well done tepsipakki
09:59 Kyral      welldone :D
09:59 elmo       (tho I'm somewhat disappointed you're not the dovecot author.  same
                 firstname and nationality.  close.  but not.)
09:59 lamont     Kamion: nfsv4 change was uploaded to debian just after dinstall today,
                 should be syncable tomorrow
09:59 Seveas     welcome abourd tepsipakki
09:59 tepsipakki gee, thanks! <blush>
10:00 Seveas     (you got approved really fast, amazing!)
10:00 Seveas     last candidate: Hobbsee (Sarah Hobbs)
10:00 Hobbsee    hey
10:00 Seveas     Hobbsee, please give us the 3-liner
                 I am Sarah Hobbs, a university student in Sydney, Australia, doing a
10:00 Hobbsee    Bachelor of Technology in Optoelectronics. I've been using linux since
                 june 2005, first Ubuntu, and then Kubuntu from that time onwards, usually
                 running a tripple boot machine of XP, kubuntu breezy and kubuntu dapper.
                 I'm a member of the kubuntu team, am involved in moderating and providing
10:00 Hobbsee    support in IRC, and involved in bug writing/fixing and some
                 packaging.  My Wiki Page is at
                 In the future, I want to learn more about packaging, so I can contribute
10:00 Hobbsee    more to the ubuntu community, in particular the kubuntu section, and
                 possibly the MOTU-science section as well.  I also want to continue on
                 with the IRC support.
10:00 Hobbsee    darn copy key doesnt work as fast as i'd like it to :P
=== benje_ [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== robotgeek can vouch for irc support!
=== mdke goes to bed, good night everyone
=== mdke [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
10:01 dholbach   Hobbsee: I hope to see you in the MOTU team soon! :)
10:01 nalioth    Hobbsee: is quite knowledgable and helpful to many in irc
10:01 Hobbsee    dholbach: i hope so too!
=== jpatrick can vouch for IRC and packages!
10:02 Riddell    I support Hobbsee's membership, she's done some good bug work and
                 #kubuntu operator
10:02 mako       Hobbsee: how long have you been contributing?
10:02 Kamion     ah, so you're part of the reason the kubuntu team manage to get Flight
                 CDs tested so quickly :)
10:02 elmo       Kamion: stop trying to deflect the blame for the bandwidth damage
10:03 Hobbsee    mako: on irc, since around...*thinks* - probably a couple of months
                 before breezy was released
10:03 elmo       ;P
10:03 Hobbsee    and packaging only in the last couple of months
10:04 Riddell    she first appeared on #kubuntu-devel 2005-10-08, was on #kubuntu few a
                 few months before that
10:04 sorush20   I don't think hobbsee has done as much as the other two members..
=== HiddenWolf [] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
10:04 Seveas     sorush20, that's irrelevant
10:04 Kamion     that does seem to be true, but OTOH it looks like fairly good going
10:05 mako       the criteria is significant and sustained
=== robotgeek remembers Hobbsee from way back, she was an op before I got kubuntu
10:05 mako       contributins.. different people have different amounts of time to give
10:05 Kamion     and packaging work is valuable
=== Kyral nods
10:05 elmo       "sudo cp -i --reply=no"  *boggle*
10:05 elmo       what's the point of that, JOOI?@
10:06 Kamion     elmo: where's that?
10:06 Kyral      .....elmo, mischan?
10:06 sistpoty   Hobbsee has some packages on revu, and iirc, what I've seen in packaging
                 is promising... and Hobbsee is often around in -motu
10:06 LaserJoc1  sistpoty++
10:06 jpatrick   Hobbsee has a good bug buster too
10:07 jpatrick   I think she has a record for Kubuntu bugs
=== Hobbsee waits nervously
10:08 elmo
10:08 Seveas     Hobbsee, be patient
10:08 elmo       no idea if Hobbsee added that, it just jumped out at me
                 elmo: i did some work on that page a while ago - i havent recently,
10:09 Hobbsee    because i havent been usign that version of firefox, using 1.5 on dapper
                 from the repositories
10:09 Hobbsee    s/usign/using
10:09 Kamion     testimonials from Riddell/jpatrick and others are good for me if they
                 reckon she's been doing good bug and packaging work
10:09 sorush20   I think she should be allowed to be a member..
10:09 elmo       wow there are some interesting usernames in the wiki
10:09 Kamion     elmo: the one I suspect you're looking at is a troll
10:10 mako       Kamion: ?
10:10 Kyral      check the changes log
10:10 Kamion     mako: one "Niggerplease" editing FirefoxNewVersion
10:10 sorush20   Hobbsee: how are you aiming to contribute to the opensource world after
                 your degree?
10:10 mako       just found it
10:11 mako       alright, i
10:11 Riddell    sorush20: ? she's only about to start...
10:11 mako       i'm happy with Hobbsee for membership
10:11 Seveas     that's one down, two to go
10:11 Hobbsee    sorush20: probably doing some more packages, more IRC - basically
                 continuing what i've already started
10:11 elmo       ack
10:12 sorush20   I have noticed that there are a lot of howto's been done on wifi by all
                 the new members..
10:12 Kamion     oh, is anyone processing the launchpad tweaking for new members?
10:12 Kamion     if not I'll do it
10:12 Seveas     sorush20, tbh: that is bad news, it means wireless is still difficult
10:13 mako       Kamion: i'll do it
10:13 Kamion     mako: thanks
10:13 Seveas     Kamion, what's your 'verdict' about Hobbsee?
10:13 Hobbsee    Seveas: indeed it is - that's one thing i'd love to change
10:13 sorush20   maybe the three new members should network together to make one unified
                 document.. to make things less confusing..
10:13 Kamion     Seveas: 21:09 < Kamion> testimonials from Riddell/jpatrick and others are
                 good for me if they reckon she's been doing good bug and packaging work
10:13 Seveas     Hobbsee, contribute to NetworkManager then
10:13 Kamion     that's an ack if it wasn't clear
10:13 Seveas     Kamion, it is, I just missed it
10:13 Seveas     Hobbsee, welcome aboard!
10:14 Hobbsee    thankyou so much!
10:14 nalioth    Hobbsee: robotgeek: welcome!
10:14 Hobbsee    :D
10:14 Kamion     Hobbsee: (do test out network-manager in dapper and see if it works for
                 you, if you haven't already)
10:14 LaserJoc1  congrats Hobbsee
10:14 Kamion     (and others)
10:14 Seveas     nalioth, don't forget tepsipakki
10:14 Hobbsee    Kamion: will do, but i use kde
10:14 nalioth    tepsipakki: welcome to the next level
10:14 dholbach   welcome Hobbsee, robotgeek and tepsipakki
10:14 Kamion     ah, there's a kde equivalent I believe but I don't know the name
10:14 Riddell    knetworkmanager :)
10:14 sorush20   Hobbsee: we need more women in Ubuntu
10:14 Hobbsee    Kamion: knetworkmanager, from cvs, which i havent figured out yet
10:14 Riddell    (but it requires a CVS netwok-manager)
10:14 Kamion     OK. Any other business?
10:15 Seveas     Time and date of next meeting
10:15 Kamion     propose 12:00 two weeks time
10:15 Kyral      as always...
10:15 Seveas     please decide now instead of one-day notice
10:15 Kamion     UTC
10:15 Seveas     fine to me
10:15 tepsipakki Hobbsee: congrats, and good luck with your studies (I've done some
                 microfabrication courses :)
10:15 Kyral      ....ick...thats like 0700 my time
10:15 elmo       that's middle of the UI sprint
10:15 Kyral      oh well
10:15 mako       wait..
10:15 Seveas     will sabdfl be available?
10:15 elmo       dunno who's going to it
10:15 mako       let me check that time
10:15 Hobbsee    tepsipakki: thankyou, you too :)
10:15 tepsipakki robotgeek: congrats to you too :)
10:15 mako       that should be fine
10:15 robotgeek  thanks tepsipakki ! you too!
10:16 Kamion     oh, bloody UI sprint - I'm scheduled to go to it, yes
10:16 tepsipakki and once more thanks to all!
10:16 mako       robotgeek, tepsipakki, Hobbsee: i've approved your membership in LP
10:16 Kamion     if you can do it without me that week that would be good
10:16 Hobbsee    mako: thankyou!
10:16 elmo       Kamion: sabdfl will be there too ...
10:16 robotgeek  thanks mako
10:16 elmo       (won't he?)
10:16 tepsipakki mako: rock!
10:16 Kamion     hmm, guess he would want to be
10:16 mako       it's been a few meetings
10:16 mako       with all the traveling
10:16 Seveas     indeed
10:16 Kamion     we could force minions to deliver us lunch
10:16 mako       quick, while he's aweay
10:17 Kyral      lol
10:17 mako       lets pass some outrageous new rule
10:17 Seveas     he wants to bring up the complaint about #ubuntu - has anybody already
                 heard more about that? mako/kamion?
10:17 Kamion     ok, I'll send mail to community-council@ proposing that time and let him
10:17 elmo       mako: how about we depose him?
10:17 Kyral      lol
10:17 mako       elmo: if he never comes to meetings, that's hardly necessary ;)
10:17 Kyral      All Members get $1 a day pay from Canonical lol
10:17 Kamion     we'll make it provisionally 1200 on 7 March until then
10:17 jpatrick   cool
10:18 mako       Kamion: good
10:18 Kamion     Seveas: not apart from that mail chain
10:18 nalioth    Kyral: is that retroactice to date of membership?  :P
10:18 Kyral      lol
10:18 mako       elmo: and plus, i definitely don't want his job :)
10:18 Seveas     Kamion, ok, neither have I apart from some supicions from the community
10:18 Kyral      what complaint against #ubuntu btw?
10:19 sorush20   Kyral really?
10:19 Seveas     Kyral, it'll come up at the next meeting
10:19 mako       i'll leave him to suits and press releases and the pretty girls in
                 karaoke bars
10:19 Kyral      Seveas: okay
10:19 Kamion     Kyral: alleged overenthusiasm about banning people for mention of
10:19 Seveas     mako, pubcon!
10:19 Kyral      oyy....that is annoying
10:19 sorush20   Kyral: is that USD?
10:19 mako       yes..
10:19 Kamion     ok, sounds like we're done here
10:19 Kamion     going
10:19 mako       i'd (wishfully perhaps) assumed that was dealt with
10:19 Kamion     going
10:19 Kamion     gone
=== Kyral gets back to study
10:19 mako       yeah, i should work too
10:20 mako       paper deadline in <11hours
10:20 mako       need to pretend i'm an academic
10:20 Kamion     mako: sadly I think probably not, we'll find out now+2weeks then?
10:20 Kyral      mako: I suspect it will turn into something like the Emacs vs. Vi Holy
=== robotgeek too, avait patches!
10:20 mako       Kyral: i don't think so
=== Kyral shrugs
10:20 mako       because the issue is not whether the software is any good
10:20 mako       it's completely inconsequential
10:20 mako       but anywya
10:20 Kyral      yah
10:20 mako       lets not have that conversation now
10:20 Kyral      sorry for mentioning
10:21 mako       my fault too :)
10:21 Seveas     see you all next time!
10:21 mako       thanks everyone for coming

MeetingLogs/CC_2006-02-21 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:30:25 by localhost)