Ubuntu Wiki

10:07 -!- sabdfl [n=mark@ubuntu/member/pdpc.silver.sabdfl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:07 <@ogra> hi matt
10:07 < cmug> for irssi, /ignore #ubuntu-meeting +JOINS +PARTS
10:07 < sabdfl> sorry all
10:07 < sabdfl> my apologies, hotel network issues
10:07 < jsgotangco> cheers
10:07 <@Seveas> Good morning Mark
10:08 <@Seveas> Everyone please be quiet, sabdfl has the stage
10:08 <@sabdfl> ok, i'm sure there will be a lot of comments
10:08 <@sabdfl> let's try and streamline the process as follows
10:08 <@sabdfl> let's 
10:08 <@sabdfl> if you have a comment on the proposal, please indicate that
10:09 <@sabdfl> just by saying "/me has comment"
10:09 <@sabdfl> seveas, you keep track of everyone who has given that indication
10:09 < zakame> hello sabdfl 
10:09 <@sabdfl> then, if someone says basically what you intend to, please don't say "me too"
10:09 <@sabdfl> we want to hear all the comments first, then discuss
10:10 <@sabdfl> i'll keep a note of the new ideas
10:10 <@sabdfl> and chair the discussion
10:10 <@sabdfl> ok, everyone who has a distinct comment, please indicate that now
10:10  * Seveas has several comments
10:10  * G0SUB has a comment
10:10  * jsgotangco has comment
10:10  * ogra has a comment
10:10 <@sabdfl> seveas, you keep track, and will give each person a turn. seveas, go last
10:10  * enyc has comment/query area
10:10 <@Seveas> will do
10:11  * Frogzoo has comment
10:11 <@sabdfl> ok, is that everybody?
10:11  * dholbach has a comment
10:11 <@Seveas> ok, let's do this first come first serve - if anyone who has not yet spoken has a comment - pm me
10:11  * pschulz01 has comment
10:11  * poningru has a comment/query
10:11  * bustacap has comment
10:11 <@sabdfl> ok, good idea seveas
10:11 <@Seveas> G0SUB, please state your comment briefly
10:12 <@sabdfl> those of you who have comments, please pre-type them, three lines of 100 chars max, so they can come in quickly when its your turn
10:12 <@sabdfl> if you need more, that's fine, just don't flood and get yourself bounced by freenode
10:12 < G0SUB> okay, if there is a six week delay in dapper, it will help us in itegrating all the IndLinux work into Dapper, especially those OOo2 fixes, and SCIM work which is very recent
10:12 <@sabdfl> gosub, go ahead
10:13 <@sabdfl> when your comment is done, say "done"
10:13 < G0SUB> and we'll be able to do a good amount of testing
10:13 <@Seveas> sabdfl, do you want to discuss all comments as they come up?
10:13 < G0SUB> so that will help us in getting excellent Indic support into Dapper
10:13 < G0SUB> done
10:13 <@sabdfl> Seveas: no, i'm tracking issues, will chair a discussion of them once we have them on the table
10:13 <@Seveas> ok, thank you G0SUB 
10:14 <@Seveas> ogra, you're up
10:14 <@ogra> the german linux magazine has the following headline this edition: "problem child SuSE, missing drivers, missing features, release postponed, is it much good?"
10:14 <@ogra> i fear the bad press we'll get
10:15  * pitti has comment
10:15 <@ogra> (additionally i'm sad because edubuntu is on schedule, but that doesnt belong here :) )
10:15  * fabbione has comment
10:15  * seb128 has comment
10:15 <@ogra> done...
10:15 <@sabdfl> thanks ogra
10:15 <@Seveas> people with comments: please /msg me to get added to the list
10:16 <@Seveas> jsgotangco, you're next
10:16 < jsgotangco> i would like to comment about the way we use terminologies in our repositories, during the g-a-i manual creation, we used several, like channel, section, category, what not, we have discussed this before in -desktop and we'd like to have a concrete title to be used all throughout. I also support the dealy for fixes to SCIM especially for CJK and we're improving at a very fast rate everyday and 6 weeks more would be helpful.
10:16 < jsgotangco> done
10:16 <@Seveas> thanks Jerome
10:16 <@Seveas> enyc, 
10:16  * enyc thinks that there will be persons who think/wonder why the _release_ itself needs te be delayed in order to facilitate getting a certificaton/similar... 
10:16  * enyc may be missing something important I didnt understand ;-)             
10:17 <@Seveas> Please remember to say 'done' when you finished your comment
10:17 < enyc> done ;-)
10:17 <@Seveas> and don't expect an 'ack' if you /msg me that you have a comment - I will see it
10:18 <@Seveas> Frogzoo, you're up
10:18 < Frogzoo> just like to say that slippages are hardly unknown in this industry. Furthermore, the delay may actually help raise Ubuntu's profile with discussion on /. etc so I don't see the delay as anything but positive - provided this is a once off, and this slippage isn't seen as setting a precedent for further slippages in the future
10:18 < Frogzoo> done
10:18 <@Seveas> thank you Frogzoo 
10:18 <@Seveas> dholbach, poke
10:18 <@dholbach> I speak as member of the Desktop team and since we're going to support the desktop VERY long, we'd be happy to get get GNOME 2.14.2 in, which is scheduled for May 29th.
10:18 <@dholbach> As part of the MOTU team I thin that Universe will profit to a high extent from the delayed process, it will give us more time to fix the ~15000 packages.
10:18 <@dholbach> done
10:18 <@Seveas> pschulz01, you're next
10:19 < pschulz01> Re. Certification - does this include hardware vendors? I would support the delay if it ment that Dapper is supported by OEMs and would allow them to supply machines with Dapper pre-installed world wide. 
10:19 < pschulz01> done
10:19 <@Seveas> thank you pschulz01 
10:19 <@Seveas> poningru
10:19 < poningru> my query is is the delay simply wither this will all be polish or will it be actually work as in will the uvf be extended, will doc freeze be extended etc.?
10:19 < poningru>  comment: already stated
10:19 <@Seveas> poningru, queries can be adressed later
10:20 < poningru> done
10:20 <@Seveas> bustacap, you're next
10:20 < bustacap> if Dapper is going to be the first "enterprise" release of Ubuntu, will this mean that new apps and patches to existing apps will be integrated into the released version? if so, could the new features that may delay on-time release of Dapper be released as updates further down the track?
10:20 < bustacap> done
10:20 <@Seveas> bustacap, that's irrelevant for this meeting
10:20 <@Seveas> but thanks for the comment
10:20 <@Seveas> Mithrandir, you're next
10:20 < Mithrandir> While having six more weeks available would have been a good thing, I believe we are so late in the cycle that those six weeks won't buy us very much.  We're past UVF, past FF, past UIF so there are only so many things which could be fixed in the available time.  Would we roll back freezes or what would happen?
10:20 < Mithrandir> (done)
10:21 <@Seveas> thanks Tollef, pitti: you're up
10:21 <@pitti> It doesn't need to be a '6 weeks or nothing' decision, right? Two weeks would help, too, and this wouldn't disturb dapper+1 so much
10:21 <@pitti> done
10:21 <@Seveas> delmonico, you're up
10:21 < delmonico> dholbach was faster about the universe fixing... done ;)
10:21 <@Seveas> ok
10:21 <@Seveas> seb128, 
10:22 < seb128> Seveas: sec, style typing 
10:22 < seb128> Usually we have a desktop rather good but lacking some polish and with some little annoyances at differences place that we don't tackle because we are too busy tackling "real" bugs. We are quite bug flooded at the moment too. Some extra delay would allow to make a much better cleanup job and ship an extra GNOME minor revision
10:22 < seb128> done
10:23 <@Seveas> fabbione, you're up
10:23 <@fabbione> I personally don't see the press as an issue. We did prove that we can deliver in time already 3 times and we can still do it for dapper. We are proving that we care even more about quality for a long support release. Let's rock and roll for dapper and screw slashdot.
10:23 <@fabbione> My only concern is killing 2 weeks of shyness on each release after dapper to ge
10:23 <@fabbione> t back on track, but i am sure we can manage that somehow, with a stronger commu
10:23 <@fabbione> nity behind us, but still need to be taken into account.
10:23 <@fabbione> done.
10:23 <@Seveas> gaz00, you're next
10:23 < gaz00> 6 weeks is all fine and good with me, if it means that better QA can be done.  Another bug like the debconf one from the other day would be horrible for the public perception, especially after a 6 week delay on a predefined commitment.
10:23 < gaz00> You might be able to get a mulligan for the first time, but the bottom line was that it was out for 5 months before someone pointed it out.
10:24 < gaz00> done
10:24 <@Seveas> thank you, JaneW you're up
10:24 <@JaneW> My question is around the timings subsequent to this release. If we release late ,what happnes to the timing of the spec writing, dev cycle and release (and naming, can it still be 6.10?) of the next version?
10:24 <@JaneW> also I was worried about bad press, but that's been mentioned before
10:24 <@JaneW> done.
10:24 <@Seveas> thanks Jane, nate_ you're next
10:25 < nate_> I'm for the delay in that it allows for the certs, which may increase the popularity of ubuntu.  My only concern is that if dapper doesn't deliver at the extended release date, that the extra publicity + failure in whatever aspects delayed the release, would = decrease in public opinion of Ubuntu and decrease it's widespread acceptance.  We must weigh this risk.
10:25 < nate_> done
10:25 <@Seveas> FlannelKing, you're next
10:25 <@Seveas> If I forgot anyone: pleas yell at me in a private message
10:25 <@Seveas> FlannelKing, ?
10:26 < FlannelKing> Hoary's release was met with some animosity regarding whether it was 'finished' or not at the release, my concern is that if we don't delay, the same feeling of problem caused by cutting corners at the last minute will be in Breezy.  If we do delay, we have to be certain that we absolutely put out a clean product.  
10:26 < FlannelKing> With the increased coverage recently, I think getting this release to feel finished is key.
10:26 < FlannelKing> done.
10:26 <@Seveas> thanks, robotgeek you're up
10:26 < robotgeek> Documentation wise, we are solid for Dapper already. But with some additional time, maybe translations of documentation could be provided at "release time". done
10:27 <@Seveas> _mindspin you're up 
10:27 < _mindspin> oops, fast,
10:27 < _mindspin> for press relations, I would say that stickkoing too the truth is always the best
10:28 < _mindspin> and if the delay is for quality reasosn we only have to communicate it the right way
10:28 < _mindspin> done
10:28 <@Seveas> thank you _mindspin 
10:28 <@sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDelayMeetingProcess
10:28 <@Seveas> dolson, you;re up
10:28 <@sabdfl> for reference for newcomers
10:29 <@Seveas> dolson, please state your comments briefly
10:29 < dolson> 6 weeks seems like an arbitrary number to me.. why exactly 6 weeks? also if there is a delay now, why not delay all future releases by 1 month, to allow a point release of GNOME X.X.1 or so? done
10:29 <@Seveas> thanks Dana
10:29 <@Seveas> there's no one on the list anymore except me
10:30 <@sabdfl> go seveas
10:30 < whiprush> I pm
10:30 <@Seveas> Postponing means losing the 6.04 name, which is already heavily used. A lot of documentation would need to be changed
10:30 <@Seveas> There already are several post-release plans, I for one am having several tutorial sessions about Ubuntu planned in may, which are especially planned right after dapper release so we can hand out CD's
10:30 <@Seveas> 6 weeks is almost 1/4 of the dapper+1 timeframe, not a small piece! This may lead to dapper+1 being postpned and I really don't think it's a good idea to postpone every release, keeping our release schedules close to gnome is a major benefit.
10:30 <@Seveas> whiprush, sorry, go ahead
10:30  * whiprush has a comment, must have not gotten thru
10:30 < whiprush> When I talk about Ubuntu to people I say, "You don't get a seperate 'enterprise edition' and 'blow-up-in-your-face edition', you always get our best for every release." I am concerned that this will set a precedent for lopsidedness in future releases/expectations.
10:30 <@sabdfl> anyone who did not get called by seveas and who pm's or who now has a comment, please say "i have a new comment"
10:30 < whiprush> I think in light of Fedora's move to 9 month cycles and opensuse's delays that we need to get it over with and make the case to upstream GNOME to move to a 9 month schedule and have Ubuntu just follow that. That's an extra 3 months of QA per future release, not just for Dapper. Done.
10:30 <@Seveas> thanks Jorge, raphink-pbook you're up
10:31 < raphink-pbook> hmm ok
10:31 < raphink-pbook> my point is that we're very likely to integrate kde 3.5.2 in dapper
10:31 < raphink-pbook> since it'll be released probably this month
10:31 < raphink-pbook> I don't think we want it to be like kde was in breezy : too young to be stable
10:31 < raphink-pbook> on the othert hand, I think delaying by 6 weeks might be hard to get recent apps in Dapper
10:32 < raphink-pbook> unless we try and keep a very good UVF exception request policy
10:32 < raphink-pbook> I'm afraid we might get late on some major apps
10:32 < raphink-pbook> done
10:32 <@sabdfl> seveas?
10:32 < Spec> i have a new comment
10:32 <@Seveas> victory747, you're up
10:32 < victory747> I cannot currently recommend Ubuntu to any of my Chinese friends as Simplified Chinese is a mess in installation, font selection and substitution is ugly, and SCIM does not work out of the box.  kubuntu is a complete disaster.
10:32 <@Seveas> sabdfl, several new comments waiting
10:32 < victory747> If Chinese is not fixed for Dapper, I still will not recommend it for my Chinese friends and colleagues.  China is a big enough potential market to delay to fix.  Done.
10:33 <@Seveas> thank you
10:33 <@Seveas> seb128, you're up
10:33 < seb128> rosetta has just imported dapper packages so we are lagging on translations at the moment, translators could probably use a delay
10:33 < seb128> done
10:33 <@Seveas> robotgeek, go ahead
10:33 < robotgeek> about docus using the version, it is not a big deal as we use entities. it's ionly one change
10:33 < jordi> victory747: we're beating up abelcheung right now.
10:33 < robotgeek> done
10:33 <@Seveas> jordi, please stay on topic
10:34 <@Seveas> Frogzoo, you're up
10:34 < Frogzoo> I think the 6 month cycle is worth preserving - 2 releases a year will be well received in the corporate environment. As for the Dapper +1 issue, allowing the 6 weeks slip should mean a lower bar is set for the next release. Also, at this stage, new apps shouldn't be being added.
10:34 < Frogzoo> done
10:34 <@Seveas> ok - according to my list these were all comments - raise your voice if you still have something to say
10:34 <@sabdfl> ok, i take it that is the end of the comments?
10:35 <@sabdfl> anybody who wanted to make a comment that has not been said, please speak now
10:35 <@Seveas> nate_ go ahead
10:35 <@sabdfl> nate_ has spoken already
10:35 <@sabdfl> ok
10:35 <@Seveas> he just msg'ed me that he has something else
10:35 <@sabdfl> go ahead nate_, but nobody else should repeat
10:36 < nate_> Something to think about that Frogzoo just mentioned, is why are we delayed?  Have we shot too high?  Can we prevent this in the future?  Can we apply any of these lessons to the immediate release to cut down the release delay?
10:36 -!- sabdfl [n=mark@ubuntu/member/pdpc.silver.sabdfl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
10:36 < nate_> done, and sorry :)
10:36 <@ogra> gah
10:36 <@Seveas> thanks nate_ 
10:36 <@Seveas> sabdfl - the microphone is yours again
10:36 <@ogra> lets wait for the sprint people to come online again
10:36 <@ogra> he's off
10:36 <@Seveas> hmm, right
10:36 < _mindspin> ;-)
10:36 <@JaneW> oops
10:37 < enyc> hotel network problems again maybe -- how inconvinient!
10:37  * bustacap watches sabdfl bash a bellhop
10:37 < raphink-pbook> :'
10:37 <@Seveas> as I said - Mr. Murphy oves us
10:37 < Frogzoo> it's a conspiracy !!
10:37 <@Seveas> please stay calm everyone
10:37 < nate_> lol, don't panic
10:37 < jsgotangco> let's not disrupt our good start
10:37 < Chousuke> :)
10:38 < nate_> his dapper just took a crapper?
10:38 < zakame> hmm patience again ppl
10:40 <@JaneW> mvo/mdz and sabdfl are at the l10n sprint in a hotel, hence they are on a dodgy connection - sorry for the inconvenience. They will be back soon.
10:40 <@Seveas> JaneW, next time pick a better hotel ;)
10:41 < zakame> awww
10:41 <@dholbach> Seveas: all hotels' connections were a bit bumpy until now :)
10:41 <@JaneW> Seveas: we tend to break them ;)
10:43 <@mdz> temporary outage on the hotel internet service here
10:44 <@ogra> mdz, we're patient :)
10:44 -!- sabdfl [n=mark@ubuntu/member/pdpc.silver.sabdfl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:44 <@sabdfl> http://pastebin.co.uk/496
10:44 <@sabdfl> sorry, hotel network was down for a while
10:44 <@sabdfl> did we miss any discussion?
10:44 -!- z4k4ri4 [n=zakaria@222.124.92.203] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:44 < nate_> sabdfl, need me to repost?
10:44 <@Seveas> sabdfl, no we were quiet while you were gone
10:44 < enyc> sabdfl: not really
10:45 < raphink-pbook> sabdfl: we were waiting for you :)
10:45 <@sabdfl> ok
10:45 <@sabdfl> have a look at the paste
10:45 <@sabdfl> i will start pulling out the major topics for discussion
10:45 <@sabdfl> hmm...
10:46 <@sabdfl> would it be better for me to run through and respond, and ask mdz to respond, to some of the specific questions?
10:46 <@sabdfl> so we all have the same set of answers?
10:46 <@Seveas> sabdfl, +1 on that
10:46 <@sabdfl> then we can discuss the issues
10:46 <@sabdfl> ok, briefly as i can
10:47 <@sabdfl> G0SUB: +1  on IndLinux, but you will need to respect the new freeze deadlines
10:47 <@sabdfl> we are working on l10n here in London with guys from China and Taiwan and Japan
10:47 < G0SUB> sabdfl: yes, I agree
10:47 <@sabdfl> so it would be good to collaborate with them for any SCIM and lang-support changes you want, NOW
10:47 <@sabdfl> mvo, abelcheung, jordi, daf are your contact points
10:47 <@sabdfl> next
10:47 < G0SUB> sabdfl: ok, that's fine
10:48 <@sabdfl> jsgotangco: agreed there are warts, happy to give direction and have you work to fix, respecting freeze deadlines
10:48 < jsgotangco> cheers we'll work on it
10:48 <@sabdfl> enyc: LSB and other certifications affect kernel and libc, not possible to fix after release
10:49 <@sabdfl> Mithrandir and others: your question is basically "what is slipping, just the release, or some other deadlines too?"
10:49 <@sabdfl> will let mdz and tech board set new dates and deadlines, in summary, there is some room for new work, but not much
10:49 < Mithrandir> sabdfl: it's also a comment that I think it's too late in the cycle for the extension to give us the full benefit, but yes.
10:49 < enyc> sabdfl: ahh hrm... so delay needed to check the released version is certified as satisfactory...
10:50 <@sabdfl> pitti: why 6 weeks? 2 weeks does not give us enough time to polish or fix bugs and get the new l10n work in, plus i'm concerned a little about installer testing feedback, and then we hit debconf
10:50 <@sabdfl> Mithrandir: agreed, we have learned for the next dapper-style release, i think
10:50 <@sabdfl> fabbione and others: asking what the impact on future releases will be
10:51 <@sabdfl> *likely* to be some impact, spread over dapper+1 and dapper+2 to get us back to gnome dates
10:51 <@sabdfl> gaz00: i hear you on the horrible root bug :-)
10:52 <@sabdfl> whiprush: we have to figure out how to get the best of both six-month on-time releases, and these few long-term support releases
10:52 < gaz00> :)   Not that proper QA isn't assumed, but i just wanted to get it out there.  
10:52 <@sabdfl> i agree we don't want to do fedora-style unsupported releases
10:52 <@sabdfl> all our releases get support and 18 months of security, they are all deployable
10:53 <@sabdfl> but it's worthus having the ability to do more stable AND less-stable releases
10:53 <@sabdfl> dapper+1 will be a fun, bring-in-the-bling release, and as a result intrinsically less stable than dapper
10:53 <@sabdfl> but having dapper lets us say to people who want super-stability "use dapper, we are laying the foundations for the next big wave here, and foundations are usually a bit dirty"
10:54 <@Seveas> it'll be warty again ;)
10:54 < enyc> sounds sensible to me...
10:54 <@sabdfl> victory747: getting chinese to work is one of the main goals of the 1l10n sprint which is a contributor to the delay, so i hope you will work with abelcheung to get it to work perfectly for you and your friends
10:54 <@sabdfl> let me know in two weeks if dapper-in-chinese is not A+ grade for you, ok?
10:54 <@sabdfl> alright
10:54 <@sabdfl> those are the easy questions
10:55 <@sabdfl> (as an aside, we are looking for input from the japanese community, so please contact jordi, daf or mvo)
10:55 <@sabdfl> now we should look at the higher level issues
10:55 < abelcheung> sabdfl, victory747: looks like the chinese channel is 'activated' too, they are in #ubuntu-zh
10:56 <@sabdfl> let's talk about the impact of the delay on the schedule - doc freeze, ui freeze, etc
10:56 <@sabdfl> mdz, can you comment? ill chair
10:56 <@mdz> do we have representatives from the doc and art teams here today?
10:56 <@mdz> I'd want to confer with them about the details
10:56  * bustacap is part of doc team
10:56  * robotgeek is part of the doc team
10:56  * jsgotangco is docteam
10:56 <@mdz> but the short answer is that we'll take advantage of the delay to allow additional time for dates which are scheduled relative to the final release date
10:57 <@JaneW> mdz: so freezes already in place, remain so?
10:57 <@mdz> JaneW: well, the localization changes require revisiting feature freeze, essentially
10:57 < jono> hey
10:57 <@sabdfl> we some specific areas where we are willing to break freeze, like fontconfig (to accommodate chinese / japanese/ korean)
10:57 <@mdz> but we'll treat it more as an exception than a reopening
10:57 <@JaneW> mdz: oic
10:57  * jono knew he would be late
10:57 <@JaneW> ok
10:57 <@sabdfl> so, exceptions rather than a UVF shift
10:57 <@Seveas> jono, please don't disrupt the discussions
10:57 < jono> Seveas, sorry
10:58 <@mdz> bustacap,robotgeek,jsgotangco: if you have any specific feedback or needs regarding the revisions to come, please send them to me via email
10:58 < bustacap> perhaps some additions to certain pieces of doc will need to be made to detail the addition of support for chinese/japanese input..
10:58 <@dholbach> I think the current UVF exception processes are nice and fast (as an answer to raphink's concern)
10:58 < bustacap> mdz: ok..
10:58 <@mdz> I'll work out the details and send an announcement early next week or so
10:58 <@JaneW> so will the name be 6.05/6.06 as the case my be?
10:58 <@mdz> likewise for any other teams who are affected
10:58 <@sabdfl> i expect some fluidity in SCIM, fontconfig, language-support etc as we push to the new l10n goals
10:59 < daf> people who want to coordinate on upcoming l10n changes are welcome to join us in #ubuntu-l10n
10:59 <@sabdfl> JaneW, seveas: good point on the 6.04 name. we do need to change it, i'm leaning to 6-06.
10:59 < robotgeek> 666 :)
10:59 <@Seveas> sabdfl, my concern is not just official documentation
10:59 <@Seveas> '6.04' is already well-used
10:59 <@mdz> the more help we can get from the community to get the localization improvements correct, the first time, the more time we will be able to spend on QA for dapper
11:00 <@sabdfl> Seveas: i think we need to remain consistent in our story that the version numbers are year-and-month
11:00 <@JaneW> agreed, however I don;t think the 6.04 can be a make/break decision here.
11:00 < jsgotangco> the doc strings are trivial to change on our side if ints needed
11:00 < robotgeek> jsgotangco: +1
11:00 < silbs> sabdfl: I think 6.06 is fine, but no reason to more to a "-"
11:01 <@sabdfl> silbs: :-). I think the decimal interpretation of x.yy has caused some confusion, people want to know "when was 6.00 released"
11:01 <@sabdfl> that's a separate discussion though
11:01 <@sabdfl> the point for this discussion is the version should reflect release year and month, agreed
11:02 < Chousuke> Newcomers: http://ihme.org/~choubaka/meet.log here is a running log of the discussion. It begins from few days prior to this meeting, when I joined this channel, so scroll down to find the actual meeting discussion. 
11:02 <@sabdfl> if dates like UI freeze do get pushed back by TB, then they will not be pushed back for 6 weeks
11:02 < Whatsisname> isn't the "real deal" later today
11:02 <@sabdfl> this means we will have long in-freeze time for translations, books (jono :-)) etc
11:02 -!- pfarmer [n=pfarmer@62-31-182-78.cable.ubr01.maid.blueyonder.co.uk] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"]
11:02 < jono> :)
11:02 < Frogzoo> I'd prefer to stick with 6.04 - allowing the slippage to require extra work seems suboptimum
11:03 <@sabdfl> ok, ogra and others talked about PR
11:03 <@sabdfl> we certainly have a good reputation on dates, even in an industry which does not respect them
11:03 <@sabdfl> and i'm unhappy that we will negatively impact on that
11:03 <@ogra> yeah, the suse article is very bad
11:04 < Whatsisname> yeah, then its all the more important to stick to whats set
11:04 <@ogra> suse has a good reputation too ...
11:04 <@sabdfl> we generally go with time-based, where the time is the most important factor
11:04 <@sabdfl> this works well for our normal releases
11:04 <@ogra> as long as we dont *really rock* with everything else we'll get bad press
11:04 <@sabdfl> but it's not possible to do both time-based and feature-based goals, they conflict
11:04 < Spec> In light of the debconf bug, I think a delay might be seen as good by the 'media'.
11:04 < Whatsisname> meh
11:04 < Treenaks> ogra: which means we need all the small things people whine about (WPA, for one)
11:05 <@Seveas> Whatsisname, please stick to constructive commenting only
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11:05 <@ogra> Treenaks, exactly 
11:05 < jdub> sabdfl: disagree - structure is the key.
11:05 <@sabdfl> so, in this case, i think dapper demands that we set an even high bar in quality, and i'm afraid I've introduced a new goal of l10n late
11:05 < Whatsisname> i bet the debconf thing will pretty much be forgotten soon
11:05 <@ogra> or stuff like screensaver configuration ... etc
11:05 <@sabdfl> jdub: elaborate?
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11:05 < robotgeek> i think the pro's outweigh the cons. if we release early, with unpolished os causes more "bad press" than delaying with a polished release
11:05 <@ogra> they will very closely look on missing features
11:05 <@sabdfl> Whatsisname: it's a huge slip on our part, i doubt it will be forgotten soon, its rather humbling
11:05 <@pitti> ogra: right, we'll have a lot of missing features
11:06 < daf> robotgeek: indeed -- short term bad press now vs. long term loss of reputation
11:06 < WildTangent> why not do as microsoft does? patch :)
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11:06 < gora> sabdfl: l10n goal is good to hear. There are some Indic l10n items missing.
11:06 < bustacap> +1 WildTangent 
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11:06 <@ogra> pitti, thats what i mean ... we cant risk missing features if we delay 6 weeks
11:06 <@Seveas> WildTangent, that's done already - and please stick to the topic - the debconf bug is a completely different discussion
11:06 < Whatsisname> it was a slip up yes but there was a response almost immediatly to it
11:06 <@sabdfl> ok, so to summarize on the PR position:
11:06 < jdub> sabdfl: i don't believe time-based and feature-based goals conflict, but it requires a structured approach to get right. unfortunately, time-based has often been approached in opposition to feature-based, which is counter-productive.
11:06  * vuntz_ agrees with ogra
11:06 < Whatsisname> no sort of "wait until the third tuesday of the month" or any similar shenanigas
11:07 <@mdz> Seveas: I think WildTangent was suggesting implementing our new feature goals via post-release patches as an alternative to a delay
11:07 < WildTangent> Seveas, im talking about the release in general. if its not finished, then finish it later
11:07 <@sabdfl>  - we should message clearly that we are delaying to meet higher standard of quality, testing, l10n, because people want Dapper to be "exceptional"
11:07 <@Seveas> WildTangent, my apologies then
11:07 <@mdz> however there are good reasons why we need to do these particular changes prior to release
11:07 < bustacap> +1 mdz 
11:07 <@sabdfl>  - we should work hard to make sure that Dapper is , in fact, exceptional
11:07 < robotgeek> mdz: what about people on dailup. they get 100 mb updates after 3 weeks?
11:07 < Whatsisname> WildTangent, "finish it later" is bad news
11:07 < bustacap> Whatsisname, "add it later" is the real point..
11:07 < victory747> l10n and Chinese support (and the like) won't help with press, but it will help with people in those places adopting ubuntu
11:07 <@mdz> when it comes to localization, we need to tightly integrate the changes with the installer and live CD environments; that is, these are features which need to go on the final CD images
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11:07 < jdub> sabdfl: furthermore, i don't think this slip should impact dapper+1. ;-) [ultimately, i think this is an exception that can prove our rule, and can be messaged positively.]
11:07 < WildTangent> i believe it is important we stick somewhat to our 6 month release cycle
11:08 < _mindspin> finish it the best should be the approach
11:08 <@ogra> jdub, how wouldnt it impact dapper+1 ?
11:08 <@Seveas> post-release patches won't work for certification
11:08 < Whatsisname> bustacap, well, theres going to be "add it later" going on always, whether you delay your release date or not, a good thing in my opinion
11:08 <@ogra> we cant start working on it
11:08 <@mdz> post-release patches can't improve the user experience with the CD images, especially those which go out via shipit
11:08 <@sabdfl> jdub: am willing to consider making dapper+1 a super-short cycle, would be.... edgy :-)
11:08 < bustacap> is 6 weeks enough time to include a solid SCIM?
11:08 <@JaneW> I also obliquely alluded to the timing of the next spec writing sprint to plan and spec Dapper +1. Will we need to shift that out too?
11:08 < WildTangent> mdz: very true
11:08 < nate_> is it possible to release l10n after the release?  that would satisfy those who don't need it and wouldn't delay the receiving of it by those who do need it
11:08 < WildTangent> didnt think of that
11:08 < jdub> ogra: shouldn't impact the schedule, sorry.
11:08 <@pitti> mdz: not even to mention that we don't have the manpower to develop two releases
11:08 < jsgotangco> bustacap: good enough
11:09 <@sabdfl> JaneW: yes, the dapper+1 spec meeting will take place just after dapper release, not before
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11:09 <@JaneW> ok, thanks
11:09 < Kream> As someone who works with end users and has to choose between recommending Ubuntu to someone or (with a heavy heart) asking people that don't deal well with "newness" to stick with Windows, polish will help (U|K)buntu compete with Vista. That's very important, since the cost of Vista will be $1 here, just like it is with XP.
11:09 <@mdz> pitti: we do, but not without significant compromises
11:09 <@sabdfl> nate_: some translations can be updated after release, yes, that's what we have rosetta and language packs for, but some of the plumbing has to be in place at the time of release, which is what we are working on
11:10 < nate_> sabdfl, ahhh
11:10 < jono> from the perspective of someone who has worked as a journalist in the Open Source press for five years, if we release a lower quality Dapper, that will net far worse press than a delay - proposing a delay and focussing the message around 'delaying to improve the quality' will net only minor negative press
11:10 < Whatsisname> Kream, try making it clear to them that free software will always be free, Windows won't be $1 always
11:10 <@mdz> nate_: translations, yes, but the localization changes we're discussing here are system-level changes, not translations
11:10 < Whatsisname> i'm sure you've tried
11:10 <@sabdfl> thanks jono
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11:10 <@sabdfl> can we call an end to the PR discussion? any further comments on that?
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11:10 < ubijtsa> the reason a lot of people have chosen Ubuntu over Debian (or other distros) in the strict 6 months release cycle. Slipping on it once and then catching up immediately won't be a problem, but slipping continously will mean lost community support - Ubuntu will be seen as 'just another Debian that takes ages to release'
11:11 < nate_> so, I'm not currently involved in helping with ubuntu, how can i get involved to help it get finished sooner?
11:11 <@ogra> jono, that will only work if the release is 100% .... not one missing feature etc
11:11 < GNAM> don't you think there's a need for an official 5.10.1 version with bug fixed?
11:11 <@sabdfl> nate_: check out the "participate" web page on ubuntu.com
11:11 <@mdz> nate_: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate (let's try to stay on-topic here)
11:11 <@Seveas> GNAM, please stick to the topic
11:11 < nate_> srry
11:11 <@dholbach> ubijtsa: I daresay we've been really strict on release dates, freeze dates etc until now - I can't see it happen to change (just like that).
11:11 <@pitti> GNAM: this evening's TB
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11:11 <@sabdfl> ok, next topic
11:11 <@sabdfl> let's discuss the idea of "dapper being a different kind of release"
11:11 < ubijtsa> dholbach: point taken, just voicing concern
11:11 < Whatsisname> is this the "official community meeting?" i thought it was later
11:12 <@sabdfl> higher quality, longer support
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11:12 <@sabdfl> how do we communicate that to users?
11:12 <@mdz> Whatsisname: there are two (equal) meetings, to allow for global participation
11:12 < Whatsisname> ah ok
11:12 <@sabdfl> how do we stay true to the idea that *every* release is usable, supported, high quality?
11:12 < Whatsisname> mmm timezones
11:12 < nate_> maybe integrate a codename into it that will make them ask?  like trail it with 'bedrock'
11:12 < bustacap> sabdfl, can the "enterprise" release of Dapper be released alongside Dapper+1 -> it seems there is a lot being thrown into Dapper in the final hours..
11:12 < nate_> dapper bedrock, or something
11:12 <@Seveas> Whatsisname, 2nd warning: please stay on topic - the meeting is already busy as is
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11:12 < Whatsisname> sorry :(
11:13 <@sabdfl> but at the same time, have dapper-style releases that are long term supported and obviously higher-input
11:13 < whiprush> sabdfl: that thing you explained about the foundation and being dirty makes sense to me.
11:13 <@Seveas> sabdfl, by calling them enterprise release?
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11:13 < bustacap> yes, 6 months after the dirty foundations are released to clean and release as enterprise
11:13 < nate_> foundation might convey the wrong meaning and enterprise is overused in my opinion
11:14 <@sabdfl> Seveas: somewhere on the website i'm quoted as saying "we don't do 'free and nasty' releases with 'pay-for enterprise' releases" :-)
11:14 <@JaneW> cornerstone?
11:14 < nate_> JaneW, I like that
11:14 < Spec> Having a delay and calling it an enterprise release both mean that dapper must truley be 100% ready after the delay.
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11:14 < jono> there has been lots of press about Dapper competing with Vista - to get that to users we need to (a) visually identify Dapper is unique and (b) deliver the key features that are lacking such as easily accessing windows disks
11:14 < bustacap> Spec, I don't think 6 weeks is a good enough period to "enterprise" a release
11:14 < jdub> "3 for your heart, 1 for your heavy metal - ubuntu keeps you on the edge *and* on the air"
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11:15 <@sabdfl> jono: the tricky bit is that for a dapper-style release we can in fact only work on fewer new features if we also want the quality standard to be high
11:15 < vuntz_> while doing an "enterprise release" is great, I don't believe everyone in the community is interested in the "enterprise" goal
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11:15 <@Seveas> jdub, awesome 
11:15 <@sabdfl> so the cool-new-stuff needs to come in early in the meta-cycle (dapper+1, dapper+2)
11:15 < bustacap> jono, I believe Dapper+1 will be the true competitor with Vista (Xgl, etc..)
11:15 <@sabdfl> vuntz_: i agree
11:15 < nate_> Ubuntu Cornerstone, or Ubuntu Bedrock, something that conveys a sort of permanance and strength
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11:15 <@ogra> sabdfl, what about the cool new stuff thats missing in dapper and that we wont deliver ...
11:15 < nate_> then change for subsequent releases
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11:16 <@sabdfl> i think the six-month "bleeding edge" releases are useful for a LOT of people who want new desktop functionality
11:16 < bustacap> vuntz, I think there is a need for Enterprise out there..
11:16 <@sabdfl> and if all our releases we dapper-style, we would lose those users
11:16 < jono> sabdfl, agreed - so we need to prioritise features that users are stumped by - as an example instead of focussing on edge cases we need to look at the forums and identify common sources of confusion
11:16 <@ogra> sabdfl, i'm mainly working on the screensaver fron, i get a lot of bashing for th emissing features alreaddy
11:16 < jdub> sabdfl: remember when we talked about six month release cycles and four version release cycles? i think that's worth coming back to given this experience.
11:16 < janimo> emphasize that dapper takes ubuntu to a new level
11:16 < jsgotangco> are we still in control?
11:16 < bustacap> sabdfl, that's good for home users, corporate users want an enterprise edition..
11:16 < Spec> Enterprise conveys 'server-class' to me, which has nothing to do with X..
11:16 < bustacap> enterprise desktop edition
11:16 <@ogra> sabdfl, and we wont have the features people are asking for, simply because upstream isnt ready for that yet 
11:16 < vuntz_> bustacap: it's not about the need. It's about the community. The community interests might be in conflict with the enterprise goal
11:17 < Whatsisname> additionally I find giving the adjective "enterprise" to something inplies one is better than the other
11:17 <@Seveas> vuntz_, since when are enterprise users not part of the community?
11:17 < vuntz_> and IMHO, community is more important than this goal in the long term
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11:17 < nate_> we could use mockingly similar ones to vista?
11:17 < gaz00> if we start delaying dapper+1, the comparisons to vista will only increase ;)  
11:17 <@mdz> jono: we do, and we have
11:17 < Whatsisname> and I think all users should always have the full power of free software at their disposal
11:17 < vuntz_> Seveas: since the day when the enterprise users don't even know it's called Ubuntu :-)
11:17 < bustacap> the community seem to be focussed on the home user - ubuntu is good enough quality for use in the corporate environment - where is the backup for the statements for getting it into the business environment..
11:17 <@sabdfl> jdub: we can't commit to dapper+4 being another dapper, 'cause we don't know what upstream will be doing in two years
11:17 < ubijtsa> sabdfl: what about consistently make every fourth release the ultra-stable, deeply QA'd release. most corporates do not want to roll out new releases every six months, they do it every two years, fitting in with the 'every fourth release' of Ubuntu ?
11:17 < jono> mdz, exactly, so the delay can continue to refine this integration
11:17 <@sabdfl> but we can commit to supporting dapper till upstream has another moment of calm
11:18 < jono> there is no way to drag Dapper up to be a dramatic competitor to Vista so close to release
11:18 < jono> users just want consistancy and better integration
11:18 < jdub> sabdfl: but we need to aim for a long-term supported release over (at the very least) two cycles
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11:18 <@mdz> jono: unfortunately, the broadest issues in those arenas seem to be non-technical problems (software we can't or won't include, for example)
11:18 < Spec> ubijtsa: +1
11:18 < bustacap> ubijtsa, my point exactly - 6 month updates to corporate desktops are just not going to happen - it's ludicrous
11:18 < _mindspin> yup
11:18 < jdub> even if we wanted to use the word "enterprise", we don't realistically reach those expectations anyway - dapper is going to rock as a platform for edge services, specific backend services, workstations and some desktop tasks.
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11:19 < jono> mdz, sure, and this is where it is essential to hook our fine doc and community resources in
11:19 -!- marty [n=marty@203-206-241-200.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
11:19 <@mdz> ubijtsa: we've based the Dapper long-term decision on the convergence of solid and supportable releases coming out of the open source world
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11:19 <@sabdfl> ubijtsa, Spec: see my point to jdub, we cant commit to a regular corporate-style release, because it depends on what is going on with kernel, X, gcc, openoffice
11:19 < bustacap> jdub, I think there is a need for an enterprise-quality desktop - not server - to be released shortly..
11:19 <@sabdfl> and gnome and kde
11:19 <@mdz> ubijtsa: we don't have control over what happens there, so it's difficult for us to commit to a fixed schedule for such long-term commitments
11:19  * robotgeek is totally confused right now about all this corporate stuff
11:19 < jono> sabdfl, let me ask, how do you see Dapper different to Breezy from the user's perspective?
11:20 < FlannelKing> if, as ubijtsa suggested, every fourth release is a 'enterprise' release, we could always delay that one release a few months, .06 instead of .04, which would not only give us extra time to finish it, but also set it apart from our normal releases, so people would be able to distinguish higher quality releases, without memorizing names.
11:20 < ubijtsa> mdz, sabdfl: point taken
11:20 < jdub> bustacap: we'll ship a long-term supported desktop - but for various reasons, we should not call it 'enterprise'
11:20 <@sabdfl> jono: fewer "new" features, better polish, better stability, better certifications, longer support
11:20 <@Seveas> we're going a bit offtopic people - the current question is 'how to convey that dapper is different but all our releases are good'
11:20 < bustacap> jdub, however it is denoted, the long-term supported desktop needs to be supported in other ways as well, other than the current "support" offered..
11:20 <@sabdfl> i'm thinking we should call it 6-06 LS (for "long support"). something in the version number to distinguish it would help
11:21 < jsgotangco> where does our server edition fall into place here???
11:21 < bustacap> sabdfl, and release the LS version at a later date
11:21 < jono> sabdfl, so Dapper is less a dramatic new release and instead more refinement, better integration and the solidification of edge services? I suspect our users expect that to - they look at the changes from warty to hoary to breezy and expect similar things for dapper
11:21 < Spec> sabdfl: -1
11:21 <@sabdfl> jsgotangco: VLS :-p
11:21 < jdub> jsgotangco: same thing, different install media
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11:21 <@sabdfl> jono: just can't have crack and crisp in the same release
11:21 < Spec> I think the versioning should stay consistent, always. (Year.Month)
11:22 <@sabdfl> Spec: yes, agree, im proposing the LS as a way of distinguishing 6-06 from 6-10 for people who are Not In The Know.
11:22 < dolson> reading on the forums, the end-user community seem to be 90% in favor of the delay - and a lot of them seem to think that it means they'll get WPA and other features added in. I think if it is delayed and the new features aren't added, they will be disenchanted with Dapper
11:22 < jono> sabdfl, exactly, and I think users are less after crack and just want better refinement and stability, which is exactly what Dapper has had so far
11:22 < poningru> I think the change in the versioning should be enough to convey the meaning of long support/stability
11:22 < bustacap> 6.06 Milestone - released 3 months after Dapper is released
11:22 <@sabdfl> dolson: we could take WPA if we got community contributions of packages that Just Work and pass review
11:23 <@sabdfl> soon
11:23 < gaz00> why not just use 6-00?  it's not conflicting with year.month, but does signify a big change?  
11:23 <@Seveas> sabdfl, argh, please don't tempt me...
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11:23 <@JaneW> gaz00: that implies a 6th release
11:23 < poningru> by change I mean 6.04 -> 6.06
11:23 < mjg59> I think bikeshedding over the version number is not the best possible use of time right now
11:23 <@mdz> gaz00: we've debated release numbering schemes extensively; there was a recent mailing list thread about it.  let's not rehash that here
11:23 <@sabdfl> Seveas: tempt you to make high quality packages? that's *exactly* what i'm doing :-)
11:23 < gaz00> ok
11:23 <@sabdfl> mjg59: point
11:24 <@sabdfl> ok, any other suggestions as to how we can make the dapper release distinct?
11:24 < juliux|cebit> why we can make 2 releases? one 6.04 for the normal users and one for the enterprise version?
11:24 < whiprush> I think a key to the point that should be made is that dapper is a culmination of things learned from warty/hoary/breezy.
11:24 <@dholbach> juliux|cebit: because we can't maintain <n> branches
11:24 <@mdz> dolson: we have been very explicit and specific about the reasons for the delay
11:24 < whiprush> I don't think that much is obvious with dapper so far.
11:24 < jono> sabdfl, I think a visually distinct release is essential
11:24 < juliux|cebit> dholbach, the second version can be and update for the firste one
11:24 < whiprush> I think most people think it's just another cycle.
11:24 < jono> dapper needs to look different and exciting
11:24 < jdub> "3 for your heart, 1 for your heavy metal - ubuntu keeps you on the edge *and* on the air"
11:24 < jono> and this is happening
11:24 < Whatsisname> jono yeah i was thinking something visual too
11:24 <@sabdfl> juliux|cebit: we did consider branching, 6.04 on time and then a later "LS" release, but we don't have the resources
11:24 <@Seveas> jono, it's orange already ツ
11:24 < Kamion> juliux|cebit: that essentially doubles our QA effort, which is critical-path
11:24  * jsgotangco will just wait for the new freeze dates to come
11:24 < Whatsisname> like a different theme or something for one
11:25 < Frogzoo> Does the Ubuntu community have sufficient resources for an _additional_ corporate release, on top of the current 2 releases a year?
11:25 < jono> Seveas, heh
11:25 <@Seveas> Frogzoo, no
11:25 < Whatsisname> I know they don't want to stray from the normal naming convention as well so thats probably out
11:25 < dolson> mdz: yes, but the community doesn't seem to listen all the time. despite me saying it a few times to them, they still say things like "I'm in favor we need WPA" and such. so.. I hear ya, but end-users don't understand this
11:25 <@ogra> dolson, ++
11:25 < marty> Just as a point from being a Ubuntu user, advocate and fan for over 18 months (but not a developer) I have just found out in this meeting that the version number is year.month. my guess is that 80% also are blissfully ignorant
11:25 < jono> if dapper was to be released with a really unique and eye catching visual theme, it would automatically be seen as unique
11:25 < robotgeek> dolson: ++
11:25 < jono> that is exactly what novell have done with SLED
11:25 < juliux|cebit> Kamion, sabdfl but the problem is that every normal people think that the next version is released in april and not in june
11:25 < Spec> XGL itself is revolutionary enough to make anyone think a computer running it is 'enterprise class', but that's not ready yet.
11:25 <@sabdfl> dolson: can you get working on WPA packages with seveas?
11:25 < whiprush> yes, I think it needs to be made clear that the delay doesn't mean Your Pet Feature(tm) will be in.
11:26  * ogra has ringing ears about "screensavers are not configurable"
11:26 < jsgotangco> haha
11:26 <@Seveas> sabdfl, no - I have no time - my graduation is in the way of that
11:26 < dolson> sabdfl: I don't have any need of the package, I'm just speaking in interest of combatting negative word-of-mouth
11:26 <@sabdfl> dolson: ok, well spread the word that a contribution will make it happen
11:26 <@ogra> that will bite back if we delay and dont have it ... but upstream isnt ready to include irt
11:26 < bustacap> Spec, off-topic - but Xgl definately would not go on any of my corporate desktops
11:26 < dolson> sabdfl: I can't work on it, as I don't hav any way to test it. but I will do that
11:26 <@sabdfl> ok
11:26 <@mdz> dolson: the process by which we set our development goals is incredibly transparent; there should be no surprises.  not sure what more we could do there, but we're straying from the topic a bit
11:26 <@sabdfl> ok
11:27 <@sabdfl> I *think* that's all the major issues that were raised
11:27 <@sabdfl> anybody else have a broad topic that needs discussion?
11:27 < G0SUB> the new freeze dates?
11:28 < jsgotangco> we'll just wait them
11:28 <@Seveas> How/When are you/we going to decide about whether to delay or not?
11:28 < Spec> Is it definite that if a delay takes place, dapper+1's release will be early?
11:28 < jdub> Spec: it can only be on time or late. ;-)
11:28 <@JaneW> will there be a vote after the meeting later, or just a general consensus feeling after both sittings?
11:28 <@Seveas> Spec, that has been answered already: there might be a delay for dapper +1 and +2, but that's not sure
11:28 < Spec> err, on time = short cycle
11:28 <@sabdfl> Spec: it will be less than six months after dapper, only question is how much less
11:28 <@mdz> G0SUB: not finalized yet; I've solicited feedback via email
11:29 < G0SUB> ok
11:29 < jono> not broad, but one glaring problem with Dapper is that it does not seem to detect Windows partitions easily - this is a showstopper for many of clients - they don't know what an /etc/fstab is and don't want to know
11:29 < theoddone> jono +1
11:29 <@sabdfl> jono: if you can get some guys from the community that you trust to put together patches on that front they will get high level review, i can promise that much
11:29 <@mdz> jono: we're not here to discuss random feature ideas for Dapper; we have specific goals in mind which we feel justify a delay, no more
11:29 < jono> the installer should detect this
11:29 < Whatsisname> well someone needs to step up and develop free ntfs write support
11:29 < jono> mdz, ok
11:29  * ogra thinks thats sad, we wont build mdz's birthday present anymore ...
11:29 < Kamion> jono: I'm familiar with that problem
11:29 < jono> Kamion, :)
11:30 <@sabdfl> Whatsisname: that and a pony :-)
11:30 <@sabdfl> now
11:30 < Whatsisname> lol
11:30 < Kamion> jono: talk with me about it later once I'm out from under this security thing
11:30 < jono> Kamion, ok
11:30 <@sabdfl> thank you all, i think that's a good discussion
11:30 <@Seveas> (ntfs write support is available in dapper already)
11:30 < Mithrandir> sabdfl: ponies for the whole distro team!
11:30 <@sabdfl> TB, CC, anybody care to comment now?
11:30 <@ogra> Mithrandir++
11:30 <@mdz> Kamion: when you're out from under this security thing, you're back under your previous workload ;-)
11:30 < jsgotangco> cool
11:30 < Whatsisname> Seveas: free write support?
11:30 < mjg59> sabdfl: Final decision still falls to the TB?
11:30 < Spec> captive?
11:30 < jdub> ogra: dude, dapper was going to be released on my birthday. this is a complete sham. ;-)
11:30 <@ogra> jdub, gah
11:31 < Spec> jdub: well, in that case, i see no reason for a delay...
11:31 <@sabdfl> mjg59: no, CC, but TB gets to break down the extra time on different schedule freezes
11:31 < mjg59> Ok
11:31  * vuntz_ has a last question: does it change the date of the prerelease?
11:31 < Kamion> I'm going to wait until the next round of discussion before making up my mind, I think
11:31 <@Seveas> vuntz_, good point
11:31 <@sabdfl> vuntz_: TB decision
11:32 < Spec> thanks for listening to the community, see ya
11:32 <@sabdfl> CC, TB, done?
11:32 <@Seveas> sabdfl, how about making an almost-there release apri 20 and call for wide testing?
11:32 < Kamion> I'm still rather concerned about the PR impact and loss of the reputation we've built up; think it has to be handled with considerable sensitivity
11:32 < Spec> Seveas: +1
11:32 <@sabdfl> Seveas: definitely, will call for wide testing of the first Flight that has everything we want in it
11:32 <@ogra> Kamion++
11:32 <@JaneW> Kamion: ditto
11:32 < vuntz_> a lot of people are expecting the prerelease to be out really soon now
11:32 < bustacap> if the decision was made to delay, a well-written, well-distributed press release should follow
11:32 < jsgotangco> we made a delay before if i remember right? but its just 2 weeks i think
11:33 < _mindspin> the pr thing means, that dapper should be nearly perfect
11:33 < bustacap> haha @ _mindspin 
11:33 <@sabdfl> Kamion: would it help if TB and CC all have to sign off on the communication of this?
11:33 < _mindspin> ;-)
11:33 <@mdz> I've weighed in already, but for public record...I recommended a 6-week delay as the best way to achieve the new localization goals and to give us more breathing room for stabilization
11:34 < Kamion> sabdfl: certainly the more eyes on it the better
11:34 < theoddone> kamion +1
11:34 <@sabdfl> ok, thanks Easterners, we'll catch the Westerners at 18:00 UTC
11:34 < jono> right, thanks for hearing my thoughts folks, I best get back to working
11:34 <@mdz> vuntz_: the announcement of the proposal for a delay was widely publicized, and the final announcement of a new release date will be even more so
11:34 <@Seveas> sabdfl, thanks for listening to us
11:34 < bustacap> cheers for the consultation
11:34 <@JaneW> Thanks for the courtesy everyone. That was well handled for a 200-strong group.
11:34 < dolson> if the decision is made by the entire Ubuntu community, the delay can't really be too negative - everyone was invited to comment on it, and while I'm not in favor of a delay, I think the PR should mention that it was concensus
11:34 <@Seveas> I've never seen a CEO take the community this serious
11:34 <@sabdfl> Seveas: thank you for your huge contribution
11:34 < jsgotangco> cheers
11:35 <@ogra> sabdfl++
11:35 < dolson> oh it's over
11:35 <@Seveas> dolson, for now
11:35 < _mindspin> hehe
11:35 < jono> sabdfl, good job, there :)
11:35 < robotgeek> dolson: you can join again, later :)
11:35 < G0SUB> sabdfl: you rock! and Ubuntu rocks with you :)
11:35 <@sabdfl> :-)
11:35 < ajmitch> dolson: next one in a few hours
11:35 <@Seveas> there will be another meeting at 18:00 UTC
11:35 <@sabdfl> thanks guys
11:35  * ogra gives Seveas a cookie 
11:35 <@Seveas> We will be better prepared for that
11:35 <@Seveas> ogra, don't
11:35 < highvoltage> i just want to say, as a community member, that I have complete confidence in the ubuntu team and that I will trust whichever conclusion you reach.
11:35 < dolson> robotgeek: it's 5:37am and I didn't sleep yet. I don't know I can be here :)
11:35 <@sabdfl> cheers all, see some of you again this evening, thanks for taking the time to weigh in
11:35  * ubijtsa calls for a round of applause for sabdfl et al
11:35 < robotgeek> dolson: same here :)
11:35 <@ogra> Seveas, no space cookie :)
11:35 <@Seveas> I have a dentist appointment at 3:30 UTC :/
11:35 < whiprush> meetings like this is why ubuntu rocks. thanks everyone!
11:35 <@Seveas> rootcanal
11:35 < _mindspin> uuuh
11:36 < gaz00> thanks everyone....   twas my first intro to the ubuntu community, and it was more than interesting and worth getting up at 2am
11:36 <@sabdfl> Seveas: i would swap you if you would clear my inbox :-)
11:36 < rob> I'm amazed at how well behaved everyone has been
11:36 < Lappi> highvoltage+
11:36 < ajmitch> Seveas: someone else can be appointed as bouncer :)
11:36 < cmug> So what was the outcome
11:36 < NoOneInParticula> I am a complete and total linux newbie, and from a newbie POV, I don't see the delay as negative at all. It shows that ubuntu us concerned with turning out the best possible product. Am looking forward to the next release
11:36 <@Seveas> I'll try to write a summary of this meeting before the next one takes place
11:36  * CuriousCat gives Seveas ice cream for job well done.
11:36 <@sabdfl> Seveas: thanks very much
11:36 <@Seveas> cmug, there's no outcome yet
11:36 < rob> hardly even a need for +m, very polite
11:36 < dolson> theoddone: is this theoddone from i.o?
11:36 <@Seveas> sabdfl, you're very welome 
11:36 < theoddone> Seveas: thanks
11:36 < robotgeek> yes, i stand corrected on the +m
11:36 < cmug> what are the choices
11:37 <@Seveas> Please move to other channels for further discussion
11:37 -!- sabdfl [n=mark@ubuntu/member/pdpc.silver.sabdfl] has left #ubuntu-meeting []