== Log ==
TZ UTC+1
{{{
07:00	dfarning	Looks like it is time to start;)
07:00	BackwardsDown	this is my first time, and before it goes off, may I ask you wat a "derative team meeting" is exactly?
07:01	dfarning	I just wanted to introduce everyone to the Derivatives Team
07:01	dfarning	the derative team is working on making is easier for distro to derive from ubuntu
07:01	BackwardsDown	ah k
07:02	BackwardsDown	like you are doing with linspire?
07:02	dfarning	or mission statement can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DerivativeTeam
07:03	dfarning	current I am working on how linspire can work within the Ubuntu community
07:04	dfarning	currently most of our discussion are on how linsprire and Ubuntu can work together on issues handling
07:04	LaserJock	are you a linspire developer?
07:04	dfarning	LaserJock, no I am a guy who wanted firefox to not crash;)
07:05	LaserJock	maybe a little round of "who's here and from what" might be nice
07:05	dfarning	sounds good
07:05	dfarning	anyone?
07:06	LaserJock	heh
07:06	LaserJock	my name is Jordan Mantha and I'm a MOTU and also an Ichthux developer
07:07	LaserJock	Ichthux is a Kubuntu derivate, btw
07:07	dfarning	LaserJock, I didn't realize you were with Ichthux
07:07	LaserJock	*derivative
07:07	LaserJock	I've worked with 3 different *buntu derivatives so far
07:07	dfarning	I am interested in how you create meta packages
07:07	LaserJock	so I'm interested in seeing how this team works ;-)
07:08	LaserJock	well, meta packages are fairly easy, as you can look at the Ubuntu examples
07:09	dfarning	Well the next issue I want to bring up was our roadmap
07:09	LaserJock	we uses seeds just like Ubuntu and basically use the kubuntu-meta package as an example
07:09	dfarning	the first order of business is talking to various distos and seeing what we can do to make it easier for them
07:10	dfarning	to work with us
07:11	dfarning	LaserJock, what could we do to help Ichthux?
07:11	LaserJock	well
07:11	LaserJock	we've had a lot of success with the items you've mentioned
07:11	LaserJock	since the dev team is almost all *buntu contributors
07:11	LaserJock	all of our packages are in Universe
07:12	LaserJock	we used LP
07:12	LaserJock	and we've worked with the installer people on getting customized installtion stuff into Ubuntu
07:12	dfarning	Would you mind serving as a resource to other distros
07:13	LaserJock	I don't think we would
07:13	dfarning	cool
07:13	LaserJock	we are a bit dormaint right now, due to various things
07:13	LaserJock	but I think we'd be happy to help where we can
07:13	dfarning	the most common request I am getting is for help from localizations teams
07:14	LaserJock	hmm
07:14	LaserJock	what do they need?
07:14	LaserJock	I'd think it'd be fairly straightfoward with Reconstructor or UCK
07:14	dfarning	do you have a preference between the two tool kits
07:15	LaserJock	since we don't use either (and I haven'), no
07:15	dfarning	;(
07:15	LaserJock	*haven't
07:15	dfarning	I would like to invite both project to join the team
07:16	LaserJock	that would be cool
07:16	dfarning	they seem to have a lot to offer
07:16	LaserJock	yes
07:16	LaserJock	I think about the only reason we don't use them is we build our .isos on a server and we have too many customizations to do
07:17	LaserJock	but they should be great for localization
07:17	dfarning	the next priority is to work with Canonical and Ubuntu to set policies for distros
07:18	dfarning	they are working on the trademark issue now
07:18	LaserJock	what kind of policies do you imaging?
07:18	LaserJock	*imagine
07:18	LaserJock	my spelling it terrible today
07:18	dfarning	mine too
07:19	LaserJock	I think if Canonical and Ubuntu started putting a bunch of "you have to do this" or "you can't do that" it might turn a lot of people away
07:19	LaserJock	where they have the right and obligation to do so (trademark for instance) then they should do it
07:19	dfarning	statements on how ubuntu will retain source code in their archives
07:19	LaserJock	yes, that'll be interesting
07:20	LaserJock	since I'm not sure what the FSF thinks of that
07:20	dfarning	yes is mostly legal issues
07:20	LaserJock	but it'd be good to see that
07:20	LaserJock	"Best Practices" would be helpful for sure
07:20	LaserJock	I've been pushing for derivatives, as much as possible, to work within Universe
07:21	dfarning	I am drafting a letter to the FSF to see if they will issue a statement on source code complience
07:21	dfarning	as it affect our team
07:22	dfarning	Yes, there are many distro who have been building knowledge and experience for several releases
07:22	LaserJock	I think it'd be good to get ahold of as many derivative as possible
07:23	LaserJock	see how many are interested in a closer relationship with Ubuntu and  other derivatives, etc.
07:23	dfarning	;)
07:23	LaserJock	some of them will want nothing to do with it I suspect
07:23	dfarning	that has happened all ready
07:23	dfarning	many distros want to go their own way
07:24	dfarning	hopefully others will see the advantage of working together
07:25	LaserJock	well, I think it'd be good to show that it *can* be helpful
07:25	LaserJock	I think mostly the Linux derivative model is a bit of a ineasy dislike
07:25	dfarning	yes, I that is what got me interest in this project
07:26	dfarning	the toss the tarball over the fence attitude
07:27	LaserJock	but we've had really good success in Ichthux
07:27	LaserJock	our biggest example is that we were able to get patches into the Ubuntu installer
07:27	LaserJock	that allowed us to give added language support
07:27	dfarning	the third issues that I would like to cover is issues handling
07:28	LaserJock	mediation?
07:28	dfarning	mediation?
07:29	LaserJock	do you mean mediation between Ubuntu and derivatives?
07:29	dfarning	sorry bug handing
07:30	LaserJock	ah
07:30	dfarning	Would like to work with Canoncial and Ubuntu about having use LP
07:30	LaserJock	using Launchpad makes all of that much easier
07:30	dfarning	having derivatives use LP
07:31	LaserJock	well, I think it's very much in Canonical's mind to have Launchpad used by derivatives
07:31	dfarning	I agree, but I don't want to commit their resources
07:31	LaserJock	several do already for pretty much everything but archive/iso management
07:32	dfarning	I believe that Canonical has commerical support agreement with some distos to use LP
07:32	LaserJock	well, most derivatives won't need that I don't think
07:33	dfarning	I need to follow up with Matthew Revell about that
07:33	LaserJock	until they want to start doing a lot of soyuz stuff
07:33	dfarning	that is one of the policy type questions
07:33	LaserJock	but Ichthux uses Launchpad for basically everything but the website/forums
07:34	LaserJock	specifications, bugs, potentially translations
07:34	dfarning	yes and from what I have seen it work great for you
07:36	dfarning	the forth issues is issue handling (the mediation type)
07:36	LaserJock	in the future Launchpad will also have Personal Package Archives which will be handy for derivatives
07:36	LaserJock	bazaar.launchpad.net is also very handy
07:37	dfarning	really, what are personal package archives?
07:37	cjwatson	PPA => "please dpkg-buildpackage this branch and stick the result in a little apt archive"
07:38	LaserJock	exactly
07:38	cjwatson	approximately
07:38	LaserJock	;-)
07:38	cjwatson	heh
07:38	dfarning	very helpful
07:38	dfarning	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DerivativeTeam/Governance
07:39	dfarning	I just wanted to bring up a draft of our governance document
07:39	LaserJock	ok, I have a fundamental question here
07:39	dfarning	yes
07:39	LaserJock	is there even enough interest to create a Derivative "team"?
07:39	dfarning	;(
07:40	LaserJock	I see a lot of teams created that don't really get anywhere
07:40	dfarning	Maybe not yet
07:40	LaserJock	not trying to be down here
07:40	dfarning	but I think their will be
07:40	LaserJock	but you're talking policies, collaboration, governance
07:40	LaserJock	and there's basically 2 of us here
07:41	dfarning	there are a lot of derivative out there that are basically recreating the wheel
07:41	LaserJock	right
07:41	gnomefreak	3
07:41	dfarning	if will take some perservence
07:41	LaserJock	but a team sort of implies people are going to come to the table
=== gnomefreak just watching
07:42	dfarning	The Mozilla Team was just me a few months ago
07:42	LaserJock	I was more of a mind to start with the mailing list and wiki namespace to put "best practices" and related info
07:42	LaserJock	the Derivative Council is a good idea
07:43	LaserJock	but it doesn't seem plausible or potent at this time, IMO
07:44	LaserJock	you know what I mean?
07:44	dfarning	not yet but I am willing to give it a few months;)
07:44	LaserJock	sure
07:44	LaserJock	but you also have to take it one step at a time
07:44	LaserJock	I think what you've got is a great end goal/roadmap
07:45	dfarning	baby steps;)
07:45	LaserJock	yes
07:46	pochu	4
07:46	pochu	;)
07:46	dfarning	yes first step is to start converstions with derivatives;)
07:46	LaserJock	ok, so how many derivatives do we know that might be interested?
07:47	dfarning	10 to 15
07:47	LaserJock	are you in contact with them?
07:47	dfarning	yes, email and phone;)
07:47	joejaxx	i am sorry everyone :\ i am here now
07:47	pochu	dfarning: we (spanish team) are thinking in do a Spanish localized Ubuntu :)
07:48	LaserJock	ok, so maybe to start with there needs to be a list of member derivatives
07:48	LaserJock	hi joejaxx
07:48	leogg	dfarning: should also contact the loco teams
07:48	joejaxx	hello leogg
07:48	joejaxx	LaserJock: *
07:48	leogg	hi joejaxx
07:48	joejaxx	:)
07:48	dfarning	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DerivativeTeam/Derivatives
07:49	dfarning	is an incomplete list
07:49	leogg	pochu: we (ubuntu-ni) are working on a similar project
07:49	pochu	leogg: nicaragua?
07:49	pochu	leogg: also ubuntu-co is doing it
07:49	pochu	leogg: I'm going to contact everyone interested, to join efforts :)
07:50	dfarning	outstanding
07:50	LaserJock	dfarning: interesting, 2 out of the 3 derivatives I've work with aren't on there
07:50	leogg	pochu: great!
07:50	pochu	leogg: please join #ubuntu-es-web ;)
07:50	LaserJock	dfarning: what I meant though, was start a derivative membership drive
07:50	pochu	dfarning: I'll update that page
07:51	dfarning	I am going to have a converation with jono about how to collaborate between locos and the derivaative team
07:51	dfarning	thanks for updating your information
07:52	joejaxx	dfarning: did you base that list on the canonical one?
07:52	LaserJock	joejaxx: is it still Fluxbuntu or have you changed it?
07:52	dfarning	can you send me emails also at dfarning@gmail.com so I don't lose track
07:52	joejaxx	LaserJock: that might be why, they are not included on it
07:52	joejaxx	LaserJock: it is still fluxbuntu at this point
07:52	dfarning	yes it was based on the Canonical list
07:53	dfarning	adding distros as they introduce themselves
07:53	LaserJock	there are many more
07:53	LaserJock	so many Ubuntu derivatives ...
07:53	dfarning	yes, but as you said baby steps
07:53	LaserJock	the MOTU in me wants to cry
07:53	dfarning	;)
07:54	joejaxx	:)
07:54	dfarning	I have not been doing to much advertising
07:54	LaserJock	ok, how about a call to derivatives to participate
07:54	LaserJock	I think it'd be good to have a list of participating projects
07:55	dfarning	currently, I am approaching them one at a time.
07:55	gnomefreak	do most derivatives have mailing lists? if so easy to send them a post :)
07:55	LaserJock	joejaxx: does fluxbuntu want to participate?
07:55	LaserJock	:-)
07:55	gnomefreak	joejaxx: please say yes
07:55	dfarning	gnomefreak, some do and some don't
07:56	joejaxx	LaserJock: yes :) i was interested the day dfarning sent the mailing list post
07:56	dfarning	it is sad how many are orphaned
07:56	LaserJock	joejaxx: has _MMA_ talked about it?
07:57	joejaxx	dfarning: there is a larger list on the bottom of the ubuntu wiki page on wikipedia.org
07:57	dfarning	_MMA_?
07:57	joejaxx	LaserJock: not that much i am going to talk to him about it today
07:57	joejaxx	dfarning: ubuntu studio :)
07:57	LaserJock	dfarning: _MMA_ is the lead of Ubuntu Studio
07:57	dfarning	joejaxx, thanks
07:57	joejaxx	dfarning: you are most welcome
07:57	dfarning	ah
07:58	LaserJock	dfarning: I'll talk it over with Ichthux devs but I'm pretty sure we're interested
07:58	gnomefreak	joejaxx: what is browser and email default in fluxbuntu?
07:58	dfarning	guadlinux is also interested
07:58	dfarning	they are a very well done distro!
07:59	LaserJock	dfarning: hmmm, what about DerivativeTeam/ParticipatingProjects
07:59	LaserJock	with a brief "This is what it means to participate" at the top
07:59	joejaxx	gnomefreak: firefox and sylpheed
08:00	dfarning	makes sense,  this is a work in progress;)
08:00	joejaxx	gnomefreak: i was considering mozilla browser but that is not in the repos at this point to my understanding
08:00	gnomefreak	joejaxx: you gonna be around in next 24-48 hours?
08:00	joejaxx	gnomefreak: yes
08:01	gnomefreak	joejaxx: ok ill ping you when i get caught up. do you have a page with list of contributors bychance?
08:01	dfarning	Well it has been an hour
08:01	joejaxx	gnomefreak: it needs updating :\
08:01	dfarning	enough to think about for one day?
08:02	LaserJock	probably
08:02	LaserJock	we need that mailing list :/
08:02	joejaxx	yeah :\
08:02	dfarning	I agree
08:02	gnomefreak	Ml fairly easy to get
08:02	LaserJock	I think most people interested are pretty involved with other things
08:02	dfarning	I'll follow up on the RT
08:02	gnomefreak	RT?
08:02	LaserJock	we should try to keep it fairly low-key
08:03	dfarning	request ticket to start a ML
08:03	LaserJock	gnomefreak: Request Ticket
08:03	gnomefreak	ah
08:03	dfarning	Thanks for all the good ideas
08:04	dfarning	I think I'll set another meeting in about two week to see where we are at
08:04	joejaxx	that sounds good
08:04	gnomefreak	that reminds me
08:06	pochu	LaserJock: still there?
08:06	LaserJock	yeah
=== LaserJock is always around, it seems like
08:06	pochu	hehe
08:06	pochu	LaserJock: do you plan to make a gnome version of Ichthux?
08:07	LaserJock	pochu: well, there was some thought of that
08:07	LaserJock	pochu: we've done a bit of work on making a Xfce version
08:07	LaserJock	Ichthux-lite sort of thing
08:07	pochu	hmm
08:08	pochu	and what about gnome? hehe
08:08	LaserJock	but there's really no reason why we couldn't other than willing people
08:08	LaserJock	Kubuntu is actually a bit easier to derivatize, IMO
08:08	pochu	LaserJock: ah, hehe
08:08	LaserJock	becuase of how the layering of configs go
08:08	pochu	LaserJock: maybe I can help a little
08:09	LaserJock	I'm sure we could work something out (I'm a Gnome guy myself)
08:09	pochu	but I'm still learning, so don't wait too much ;)
08:09	pochu	LaserJock: so am I :)
08:09	LaserJock	well, the other thing is that we're also a Debian-based project
08:09	LaserJock	having a few DDs involved
08:10	LaserJock	so Ichthux has gone from Knoppix-based -> Kubuntu-based -> in Ubuntu repos -> in Debian repos (in the guture)
08:10	LaserJock	*future
08:10	pochu	LaserJock: oh, I thought you were ubuntu based :)
08:11	LaserJock	well, right now it's kinda hard to say how it exactly goes
08:11	LaserJock	it's based off of Kubuntu but the packages are all in Universe
08:11	LaserJock	so it's even hard to call it a real derivative since it's developed alongside
08:12	pochu	I see
08:12	LaserJock	and then when many of the packages get pushed to Debian it'll get even weirder
08:12	LaserJock	since we'll actually be our own upstreams ;-)
08:13	pochu	hehe
08:13	pochu	that might be annoying :)
08:13	LaserJock	pochu: anyway, if you're interested there's #ichthux and #ichthux-devel
08:14	pochu	LaserJock: didn't know :)
}}}