{{{ 05:05 seb128 where is herr holbach? 05:08 mvo seb128: I talked to him some minutes ago, he should be here any minute 05:08 seb128 k 05:09 mvo seb128: how is your reading going? what book are you? and where :) ? 05:09 seb128 I've not read, as usual when starting IRC, got stuff to do :p 05:09 Nafallo dholbach says that he can't connect to freenode. 05:09 seb128 I was going to when I remembered the meeting was 20 min later 05:10 mvo what is the nice of j5 on irc? is it j5 :) ? 05:10 seb128 yep === dholbach [n=daniel@u5-32.dsl.vianetworks.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 05:11 dholbach hi 05:11 dholbach sorry, i'm late 05:11 dholbach just couldn't connect to freenode 05:11 Nafallo welcome back dholbach :-) === dholbach looks around him, says "home" :) 05:12 jsgotangco oh desktop meeting eh? 05:13 seb128 lol 05:13 dholbach so who's here for the desktop team meeting :) 05:13 mvo ahhhh 05:14 mvo welcome dholbach ! 05:14 dholbach you were waiting for me? 05:14 dholbach i'm so touched 05:14 seb128 yep 05:14 mvo sure === dholbach sniffs === dholbach is Daniel Holbach === jsgotangco would love to be part of the gnome love 05:14 dholbach ok === dholbach looks at the Meeting Agenda 05:15 dholbach https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/MeetingIdeas 05:15 dholbach so what do we have achieved since the last time? 05:15 seb128 UDN 05:15 seb128 thanks vuntz :) 05:15 dholbach yeah, that was a blast 05:15 seb128 now we have lot of new people on the list 05:15 seb128 time to have rocking ideas on make the list active :) 05:16 dholbach we should really focus on getting our crazy ideas to the list asap 05:16 seb128 yep 05:16 dholbach but it seems to hard to convert ourselves from the irc-centric approach we take, no? :) 05:16 dholbach mvo for example could take the discussion about dbus/notify there === Nafallo will have to read the minutes. girlfriend is demanding today... === mvo is michael vogt === seb128 is seb128 05:17 dholbach because that will something that will affect huge parts and if we can discuss it and get people involved 05:18 mvo we will need to recompile a bit for both main and universe, seb128 already prepared a list for main 05:18 seb128 23 packages for main 05:18 seb128 let me run it on universe 05:18 dholbach 62+46 all in all (-1-1 and glib-1-1) === seb128 kicks dholbach for saying crap :p 05:19 seb128 19 for universe 05:19 seb128 23 for main 05:19 mvo seb128: do you use grep-dctrl? 05:19 seb128 grep-available in fact 05:19 seb128 with some | | to get source packages instead of binary === Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 05:20 dholbach mvo: do you think there will be lots to patch? 05:20 mvo so far everything compiled 05:20 mvo but I'm not 100% sure 05:21 dholbach cool 05:21 mvo we may run into some issues 05:21 seb128 is there a way to remove '\n' ? 05:21 mvo otoh gnome is going to depend on it for 2.14 anyway, no? 05:21 seb128 ie: for a file 05:21 seb128 1 05:21 seb128 2 05:21 seb128 to cat it | sed 's#\n##' or something 05:24 dholbach seb128: sorry, dunno 05:24 dholbach mvo: we could write a mail to u-d-a and just go with it in a big upload over a weekend, so there's no (too big) breakage :) 05:26 seb128 yeah, tr works for that :p "avahi banshee gnome-power-manager gnome-screensaver gnome-user-share 05:26 seb128 gpe-contacts gpsd libgalago libipoddevice liferea network-manager power-manager thoggen totem vlc xchat-gnome xfce4-terminal xfmedia xterminal" 05:26 seb128 for main "bluez-pin bluez-utils dbus epiphany-browser evince evolution 05:26 seb128 gnome-applets gnome-utils gnome-vfs2 gnome-volume-manager hal ivman k3b kdebase libgpod libnotify nautilus-cd-burner notification-daemon pmount rhythmbox screem totem update-notifier" 05:26 Amaranth whoa 05:26 dholbach that doesn't look too bad 05:27 dholbach :) 05:27 seb128 those are the source rdepends of libdbus-1-1, 1 is universe, second is main 05:27 Amaranth what is changing? 05:27 Amaranth ah 05:27 mvo nice! 05:29 dholbach mvo: ok, so we try the breakage first locally and then shove it to the people? 05:29 mvo good plan I think 05:29 dholbach cool 05:30 seb128 mvo: but what happens when new dbus hit the archive? 05:30 seb128 apps are broken and need a rebuild NOW? 05:30 seb128 binary package name change? 05:30 mvo binary package name changes 05:30 mvo so when dbus hits the archive nothing happens 05:30 seb128 oh, nice 05:30 seb128 clean transition so 05:31 dholbach seb128: we do it the doko way: do a million uploads at once :) 05:31 mvo but once we start building the first apps we need to be quick :) 05:31 mvo yes 05:31 dholbach we can split up and do it over the weekend or over night :) 05:31 seb128 what happens if apps built with 2 different versions try to communicate? 05:31 mvo of course we first need a building dbus *cough* 05:31 Nafallo today!? :-D 05:31 raphink slomo: could you advocate http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1163 again please? 05:31 mvo shock and awe 05:31 seb128 we get 2 busses and they don't reach each other 05:31 seb128 or BUM?:) 05:32 slomo raphink: wrong channel ;P 05:32 mvo in theory it might work, but in reality -> bum 05:32 raphink oops sorry 05:32 raphink :( 05:32 raphink hehe 05:32 seb128 mvo: bum like app crashing? 05:32 dholbach seb128: isnt 'boum' the french way of crashing? ;) 05:32 seb128 or just dbus feature not working fine? 05:32 seb128 dholbach: yeah, but that's an english meeting :p 05:32 seb128 haha :) 05:32 dholbach :) 05:33 mvo I had panel freezes for examples 05:33 seb128 panel doesn't use dbus 05:33 dholbach we'll see how it works out... a warning on u-d-a should be appropriate :) 05:33 seb128 see my list :p 05:33 mvo but some applets do 05:33 seb128 applets should not be able to take the panel down 05:33 seb128 I blame vuntz 05:33 dholbach "should" :) 05:33 seb128 vuntz|away: HERE, NOW :) 05:34 dholbach haha 05:34 seb128 mvo: anyway, 20 package is no big deal, with 2-3 people on it, it's a matter of one hour 05:34 dholbach yeah 05:34 sivang desktop team meeting? 05:34 sivang or doc-team ? 05:34 dholbach desktop, still :) 05:34 seb128 guess? 05:35 Nafallo those packages are only main? :-) 05:35 dholbach Nafallo: universe uploads! :) 05:35 Nafallo sivang: no, the docteam has to rebuild 20 packages :-) 05:35 seb128 Nafallo: quite the same number for universe 05:35 Nafallo yay! something for me todo :-D 05:35 seb128 :) seb128: we'll set up a wiki page, where everybody can take his share 05:36 dholbach of packages and we organize it, before we actually do it, does that sound smart? 05:36 Nafallo dholbach: yes oh humble wikigod :-) 05:36 seb128 that sounds not required for me 05:36 dholbach no? 05:36 seb128 20 packages, I can give 7 to you, 7 to mvo and take 6 === mpt [n=mpt@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 05:36 dholbach yeah + universe 05:36 seb128 and we are done in one hour 05:37 seb128 the transition is small enough to be handled on IRC imho 05:37 Nafallo seb128: do you have the list of packages somewhere? :-) 05:37 dholbach *nod* 05:37 seb128 but that's because I don't like to wait for hours on wiki every time I do an upload 05:37 seb128 if you want to wiki stuff feel free 05:37 Nafallo good point ;-) 05:37 seb128 I'll ping you on IRC to update my uploads :p 05:37 dholbach no, but just to share it before we do it :) 05:37 dholbach haha 05:37 seb128 Nafallo: I copied it like 20 lines up 05:37 dholbach apart from dbus/notify we need to discuss how to get the pile of bugs managed - the situation is desparate since flight 2 05:38 \sh seb128: send the universe packages to ubuntu-motu ML :) 05:38 doko seb128: do these packages need changes? 05:38 seb128 hum, rather like 60 lines now :) 05:38 Amaranth 11 minutes ago 05:38 seb128 doko: that's a good point, a few probably === sivang apologizes *again* for missing a meeting, there seem to be an exponetionaly growing number of them 05:38 seb128 Debian is like to have the patches ready though, sjoerd was working on that yesterday 05:38 Nafallo oh, I've feed universe + screem to apt-get source now ;-) 05:39 seb128 GNOME is current dbus complient 05:39 sivang what packages needs work this time nbesides merger etc? 05:39 dholbach seb128: cool 05:39 seb128 mvo: have you tried to rebuild stuff with your new dbus? 05:40 mvo seb128: yes, some stuff, hal, pmount, gnome-media, nautilus-cd-burner, evince 05:40 seb128 need patching? 05:40 mvo no, build fine so far 05:40 seb128 good 05:40 seb128 I was expecting that for GNOME 05:41 seb128 brb 05:41 dholbach cool 05:41 Nafallo ehm, I get 404 on the dbus orig.tar.gz 05:41 dholbach where? 05:41 Nafallo (apt-proxy -> archive.u.c) === fabbione [n=fabbione@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 05:41 dholbach hm, might be temporarily 05:42 dholbach but all in all it seems quite straightforward 05:43 dholbach as i said before, i'd really like to know, what you guys think about the bug matter 05:44 dholbach i think that regular bug days are a good start, but what can we do apart from that? 05:44 sivang dbus rebuild? seems fairly easy to do, where the package list? :) 05:44 dholbach sivang: please read the backlog, seb posted it 05:44 seb128 dholbach: bug days like every week or every 2 weeks 05:45 seb128 but we need people available/responsive the whole day 05:45 seb128 tracking what people do 05:45 sivang dholbach: ok, thanks === paulproteus|lapt [n=paulprot@pool-151-196-244-173.balt.east.verizon.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 05:45 mvo how many people (roughly) attend to bug days? 05:45 dholbach i can't really tell 05:45 dholbach since it's quite "new" 05:45 dholbach last time there were like always 10 doing stuff actively at a time 05:45 seb128 mvo: 10-20 05:46 sivang dholbach: what's the approach to not stepping on each ones toes when working on bugs? do you assign them to yourself for that? 05:46 seb128 sivang: read the backlog 05:46 dholbach sivang: no, we don't do that 05:46 seb128 oh, not speaking about dbus 05:46 dholbach we had categories of bugs mentioned on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay 05:46 Nafallo dholbach: I can start dropping build-deps on libxdmcp-dev now? 05:46 seb128 there is enough bug to not step on another one when picking one usually === mpt [n=mpt@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["http://mpt.net.nz/"] 05:46 dholbach Nafallo: if libx11 has built, yes 05:46 seb128 Nafallo: yeah, was a bad idea to do that === sivang reads 05:47 dholbach like UNCONFIRMED ones, NEEDINFO ones, ... 05:47 dholbach and people told what they were looking at 05:47 seb128 Nafallo: fix the issue instead of workaround wrongly half of the world :) 05:47 dholbach apart from that, there were people working on MOTU bugs (in malone), other on bugzilla, ... 05:47 Nafallo seb128: indeed :-) 05:47 dholbach i hope that our call for kubuntu folks, motu folks, other folks will get different people involved, so we can tackle bugs equally 05:48 dholbach but surely, as a desktop team we'd love to see desktop-bugs@ fixed asap :) 05:48 dholbach fixed/triaged 05:49 dholbach it's a bit hard to get people working on bugs, they don't seem to have a special affiliation to it 05:49 seb128 yeah, especially distro bugs 05:49 seb128 we should make "specialized lists" 05:49 dholbach seb128: the situation on universe bugs is even worse 05:49 dholbach to be frank 05:50 seb128 like "GNOMish bugs", "KDEish bug", "installer bugs" 05:50 seb128 dholbach: I'm not quite convinced 05:50 dholbach that might make sense, do you think we should have separate days for those? 05:50 seb128 maybe not 05:50 seb128 but have clear list during the bug day 05:50 dholbach seb128: if i look at my universe bugs mail box that's the impression i get, they are assigned, but not triaged 05:50 seb128 so people can focus on what they are interested it 05:50 seb128 s/it/in/ 05:50 dholbach yeah 05:51 dholbach that definitely sounds good 05:51 seb128 dholbach: malone generates a lot of noise 05:51 dholbach :) 05:51 dholbach yes 05:51 seb128 I read new bugs on malone quite often since there is no assignee by default 05:51 seb128 to figure where GNOME bugs are 05:51 seb128 and most of the flood are your syncs 05:51 dholbach i always look at the unassigned list 05:52 dholbach ... first 05:52 dholbach i feel that we need a separate team, maybe we should get t-shirts out to members of the "Ubuntu Bug Squad" :) 05:53 dholbach people in #ubuntu-bugs surely feel "lost" somehow 05:53 dholbach i saw that in the days after the bug day 05:53 mvo some sort of reward will certainly motivate 05:53 dholbach people were getting in and thought "hello, anybody here?" 05:53 seb128 I was wondering if we should split bug days 05:53 dholbach split in what way? 05:54 seb128 like have desktopish triagging on #ubuntu-desktop 05:54 dholbach mvo: we should talk to mark about that 05:54 seb128 instead of #ubuntu-bugs 05:54 sivang ok, so new dbus version? 05:54 sivang :) 05:54 dholbach but that way we will always have bugs not being touched === sivang read changlog in the quickest way ever 05:54 dholbach sivang: do you have a big irc lag? 05:55 dholbach not meant to be rude, but we're talking bugs atm :) 05:55 sivang dholbach: erm , I don't think so - maybe, why? 05:55 sivang eh! 05:55 sivang no , it's ok - my brain is lagging, not irc 05:55 seb128 dholbach: right, but we can still have a part of the triage on #ubuntu-bugs 05:56 dholbach it might sound stupid, but maybe we should talk bug discussions over there? 05:56 dholbach mvo: any idea on those rewards? 05:57 dholbach seb128: do you know of other bug teams around the open source world, apart from gnome? 05:57 mvo t-shirts, a special thanks mail from leading comunity people (like dholbach) 05:57 mvo that sort of thing 05:57 dholbach haha 05:57 mvo menitoning on a webpage 05:57 dholbach that sounds cool yes 05:57 seb128 dholbach: nop 05:57 mvo or a minutes from the bug-day 05:57 mvo with special mentinoing etc === jsgotangco starts to blog gnome desktop is awesome! 05:58 sivang but people should not do it just for getting some reward or karma, as seb128 once noted. I think he's was right. 05:58 dholbach we should raise more awareness of those people just getting involved 05:58 dholbach like those "everybody look, seb128's first upload to the archive"-mails :) 05:58 seb128 I didn't say that 05:59 seb128 reward/karma can motivate people for sure 05:59 sivang maybe we need to have a bugs day report, where people working were mentioned (even if they fixed bugs, of if they did not) 05:59 seb128 but that's not a reason to make useless stuff only to get karma 05:59 dholbach sivang: sure not, but people willing to contribute usually have contributions of good quality 05:59 sivang dholbach: agreed 05:59 sivang seb128: true 05:59 sivang but t-shirts would be nice :) === jsgotangco begs for one I think that if we care not to make too much distinction between 06:00 sivang epople the take part in this day, we'll eventually get a nice steady community of bug squad people 06:00 dholbach guys, do bug triage! 06:00 dholbach i will talk to mark for every t-shirt personally === jsgotangco will make sure to bring a poster of dholbach during WWE 06:00 sivang jsgotangco: WWE? 06:00 dholbach even if i have to buy them, i'll do it 06:01 jsgotangco sivang, world wrestling entertainment heh 06:01 sivang eh, :) 06:01 dholbach seb128: we should do a nice t-shirt design session and i'll sent them out 06:01 dholbach s/sent/send 06:01 Nafallo jsgotangco: did he win against who? :-) 06:02 seb128 dholbach: I'm not the guy you want to ping about design stuff :p 06:02 dholbach so who of you will get heavily busy with us next week (21st)? and who of you honestly noticed bug day on 21st? 06:02 dholbach seb128: thanks... we'll do it just fine :) 06:03 dholbach big silence... sure, i understand... "blah... christmas presents... blah...", sure :) 06:04 dholbach if, so if nobody has to say anything, we should move to other topics 06:04 seb128 move 06:05 dholbach what do you want to see in the desktop team next? :-) 06:05 dholbach people seem to have high expectations in the team 06:05 dholbach (hence the big amount of subscribers on the list) 06:05 dholbach but it doesnt seem to be clear what people can do 06:05 dholbach is that observation accurate? 06:06 jsgotangco yes 06:06 seb128 use the wiki to put task 06:06 seb128 don't hesitate to use the list to raise discussion instead of IRC 06:06 seb128 to ask for new cool stuff, opinion on it, etc 06:06 seb128 maybe some weekly bug triaging stats 06:06 seb128 how many bug we got 06:07 seb128 how many we closed 06:07 dholbach maybe i should do a day with s/#ubuntu-desktop/ubuntu-desktop@ 06:07 seb128 the top 5 of bug closers 06:07 seb128 daily work discussion are not suitable for a list 06:07 seb128 I think this page is nice: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/weekly-bug-summary.html 06:08 seb128 we should have a weekly summary for Ubuntu too i just thought about it, but maybe if we could take more of our usual 06:08 dholbach workflow to the mailing list, people would have a "glimpse into what happens everyday" 06:08 seb128 people like to see how things are going/moving 06:08 sivang dholbach++ 06:08 dholbach who are our bugzilla experts? jdub? 06:08 sivang seb128: but also like to see them logged in a mailing list, when it's easy to go back 06:08 seb128 dholbach: we already said that, and I tried to mail the list 06:08 sivang seb128: oh 06:08 seb128 I did for the session dialog, gconf changes, asking for the panel launchers and stuff 06:09 seb128 dholbach: yeah, jdub I guess 06:09 dholbach yeah, maybe i didn't try hard enough 06:09 dholbach i'll try harder 06:09 dholbach new pages on the wiki, new things we're planning "at some stage", ... 06:10 sivang dholbach: make sure you send it to the list as well, and try to create discussion there 06:10 dholbach sivang: i was talking about the list 06:10 sivang ah ok 06:10 dholbach that sounds sound 06:10 dholbach mvo: you mail to the list first... dbus / notify stuff! YAY :) 06:10 sivang dholbach: you said "wiki pages.." , that's why I Was wondering. 06:11 dholbach it was in context to what seb said before 06:12 dholbach seb128: you think jdub will make such a weekly-bug-summary happen? 06:12 seb128 no 06:12 dholbach *nod* === jsgotangco starts journey to neverneverland 06:12 mvo dholbach: I first need to make it build again 06:12 seb128 but it's easy to have some standard queries to get stats and to include that to a weekly mail 06:12 seb128 like UDN 06:12 dholbach mvo: ok 06:12 dholbach seb128: i'll look into it 06:13 dholbach and set a big reminder every week :) 06:13 seb128 dholbach: ask vuntz about it, he already did some stat on bugzilla.ubuntu like that 06:13 dholbach cool === dholbach hugs vuntz in absentia 06:13 dholbach are there some other points somebody would like to raise? 06:14 dholbach ok 06:14 dholbach i think for a rather ad-hoc meeting this went quite well 06:14 dholbach and it makes me happy to see, that there's always enough to discuss in ubuntu-dektop :) 06:14 dholbach if nobody steps up to it, i'll write the minutes 06:15 jsgotangco :D 06:15 dholbach and send them to ubuntu-desktop@ :) 06:15 sivang dholbach: also, make sure you send the stuff about what seb talked in the backlog :) === sivang seems to have trouble parsing the backlog correctly. 06:15 dholbach hey vuntz 06:15 vuntz hey 06:15 vuntz :-) 06:15 dholbach vuntz: any points you'd like to raise for the desktop meeting 06:15 dholbach ? 06:16 Riddell I have a brief question 06:16 dholbach Riddell: fire away 06:16 Riddell what's the status of gstreamer 0.10 support in apps? 06:16 dholbach seb128: :-) 06:17 vuntz dholbach: no special points 06:17 dholbach vuntz: unspecial ones? 06:17 vuntz err. don't think so :-) 06:17 seb128 Riddell: for GNOME most of them are ported 06:17 vuntz ah 06:18 vuntz don't forget to send new stuff on the list or to me so that it can be in UDN 06:18 seb128 Riddell: we will ship dapper with gst010 no gst08, is that an issue for KDE? 06:18 vuntz seb128: we could ship both if necessary vuntz: what do you think about doing weekly bug stats (how many new 06:18 seb128 bugs, closed, forwarded, top 5 bug closers, etc) (like http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/weekly-bug-summary.html)? 06:18 vuntz seb128: good idea 06:18 seb128 vuntz: no we can't 06:19 vuntz I wanted to add a section like this in UDN, btw 06:19 vuntz seb128: why can't we? 06:19 Riddell seb128: amarok will probably be ported to gstreamer 0.10 soon, but there's no plans for kaffeine to be currently 06:19 seb128 vuntz: pitti will track me down :p 06:19 dholbach vuntz: great! 06:19 seb128 vuntz: anti-duplication front :) 06:19 vuntz seb128: if KDE needs it, we can 06:19 vuntz it doesn't mean GNOME will use it :-) 06:19 seb128 vuntz: right, but better to not 06:20 dholbach there's a bit of time until release :) 06:20 Riddell yeah, I just need to persuade them that they'll look old-fashioned if they still use gstreamer0.8 06:20 seb128 vuntz: depending on what you mean "ship", we will not on the CD for sure 06:20 vuntz seb128: not the Ubuntu CD, but if KDE needs it, it can be on the Kubuntu one. Can't it? 06:20 dholbach Riddell: haha, that's the best point you can make, for sue :) 06:20 vuntz but I agree it's better to have only 0.10 06:20 seb128 vuntz: yeah, no issue for that, it just has to be in main 06:21 seb128 but pitti would be happy if we can move 0.8 to universe 06:21 seb128 because main means we will have to support it for 3 years 06:21 vuntz and everyone would be happy. Not just pitti :-) 06:21 seb128 and upstream already stopped supporting it 06:21 seb128 so that's like maintaining it for 3.5 years over upstream 06:22 dholbach ouch :) 06:23 dholbach if that gives answers to the question, we close the meeting, no? :) 06:23 dholbach ok, meeting closed 06:24 dholbach have a nice day }}}