Ubuntu Wiki

10:10   mdke_   evening
10:10   robotgeek       hello, doccers :)
10:10   mdke_   who else is around?
10:11   robotgeek       hmm, LaserJock said he will will back soonish. running an errand or so
=== nixternal is here
=== tonyyarusso is here
10:11   mdke_   we need an agenda
=== mdke goes and hunts for all the doc-specs
10:12   nixternal       https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDesktopGuide
10:12   nixternal       there is the KDG
10:13   Riddell ooh, docs meeting?
10:13   nixternal       yes sir
10:13   Riddell put me down for pimping bzr on the agenda
10:14   Burgwork        one of the bzr devs just showed me an online pqm tools
10:14   mdke    go ahead and add things to the agenda
10:14   Burgwork        however, I think we should be looking into everything on moin, personally
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10:14   Riddell mdke: how can I add stuff if we don't have one?
10:15   mdke    Riddell: well, you edit the page, and type something in
10:15   Riddell mm hmm, which page?
10:15   mdke    wiki:DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
10:18   tonyyarusso     I only have 40 minutes of lappy battery, so hopefully this is quick
10:19   mdke    shall we get cracking?
10:19   Burgwork        sounds good
10:19   robotgeek       +1
10:19   mdke    agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
10:19   mdke    refresh it if you haven't in the last few seconds
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10:19   mdke    let's discuss briefly the specifications we have for feisty so far
10:20   mdke    the most significant one is TopicBasedHelp. Have people had a chance to read it since the updates the other day?
10:20   tonyyarusso     I haven't - URL?
10:20   Burgwork        sort of
10:20   mdke    tonyyarusso: wiki:TopicBasedHelp
10:20   nixternal       i briefed it yes
10:21   mdke    what do people think?
10:21   tonyyarusso     I like the concept of having short answers available, but I don't want it to be to the exclusion of manual-style docs.
10:22   tonyyarusso     I think we should have both ways to look up quick answers, and something that caters to the "I'm going to sit down and learn this over the weekend" crowd
10:22   robotgeek       i dont mind it at all if it helps searching for docs
10:22   mdke    the idea isn't to exclude anything, just to split up the existing sections presentationally
10:22   Burgwork        sure, can we make each page a moin page?
10:22   tonyyarusso     If they can share content, great, but that's a technical issue and I don't know how they work internally
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10:22   robotgeek       i feel that our doc style kinda tends towards that, anyways
10:22   nixternal       Burgwork: that is a good idea actually
10:23   tonyyarusso     mdke: I don't want to split them entirely though - I actually like the way they are now
10:23   nixternal       go from moin2xml
10:24   Burgwork        mdke: thoughts on that?
10:24   robotgeek       nixternal: does that work reliably now?
10:24   Burgwork        is moin2xml mature enough?
10:24   nixternal       from what i can tell, it is breaking up our current sections, and adding a top level faq section that im guessing will link to the topic headins
10:25   nixternal       Burgwork: actually, no it isn't...any of the wiki2xml's scripts are not good
10:25   nixternal       although, copy and paste isn't all that difficult ;)
=== LaserJock waves hello
=== nixternal waves back
10:27   tonyyarusso     In short, it sounds like a good goal at least from the user perspective; dunno how specifically to get there
10:27   robotgeek       yeah, i am not sure if any kubuntu doc team member has started talking upstream about it. (i havent)
10:27   nixternal       thats what we have to work out, as it will cause us to utilize a different layout than what we currently use..however it shouldn't be all that difficult
10:27   nixternal       robotgeek: i have
10:28   nixternal       upstream, ala KDE, want topic-based help as well, but hasn't been really looked into as much
10:28   nixternal       i know there is a supposed khelpcenter restructuring plan, but implementation or due date is unk
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10:29   Burgwork        we need something for feisty
10:29   Burgwork        I think the best way is to do moin2xml
10:29   Burgwork        I know Fedora is using it already
10:29   nixternal       when is our string freeze btw?
10:30   LaserJock       nixternal: check the schedule
10:30   nixternal       March 8
10:30   nixternal       haha, i was looking dead at the schedule at that
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10:31   robotgeek       i suggest we make a list of things that don't work well with moin2xml, maybe we can get someone to fix it for us?
10:31   LaserJock       how are we going to get it into moin in the first place?
10:32   Burgwork        manual merging
10:32   Burgwork        identify a toc we want to ship and then work on those pieces
10:33   nixternal       i did a moin2xml with the release pages we were doing during edgy, and there were a lot of manual fixes that had to be done
10:34   Burgwork        lets document all those things
10:34   nixternal       i think we can add to the script as well in order to fix some of those issue with tags
10:34   Burgwork        is the converter in LP?
10:34   nixternal       probably just a bunch of sed/awk
10:34   LaserJock       fedora isn't it?
10:35   nixternal       i have been using the converter on the moinmoin webpage
10:35   Burgwork        yep, but is it uploading to Ubuntu?
10:35   Burgwork        ok, shall we assume we are going with moin2xml?
10:35   nixternal       either that or copy and paste
10:35   nixternal       manual merging..which im thinking will be just as quick
10:36   Burgwork        manual merging for the initial docbook --> moin
10:36   nixternal       with the moin2xml style has to be very strict...i do know that is a recommendation
10:36   Burgwork        we can acls if needed
10:36   LaserJock       I do like the idea having people be able to edit a wiki page to contribute
10:36   LaserJock       giving edit access on the wiki is much easeir then svn access I think
10:36   Burgwork        so if we are going moin, we need the following done:
10:36   Burgwork        merge docbook into moin
10:37   Burgwork        decide on list of topics to ship
10:37   Burgwork        start test convertions to work bugs out of the converter
=== somerville32 [n=ubuntu@fctnnbsc15w-156034071167.nb.aliant.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:37   LaserJock       well, I'm kinda feeling like we are getting ahead of ourselves
10:38   Burgwork        how so?
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10:38   Burgwork        we need to make a decision
10:38   LaserJock       have we decided what docs and in what forms we want them?
10:38   Burgwork        the wiki is getting edits while the docbook is not
10:38   nixternal       i know the kubuntu docs spec was approved, however if we are going for a unified layout, that has to change (the kdg spec)
10:39   Burgwork        ok
10:40   robotgeek       nixternal: what do you mean, unified layout? for udg and kdg?
10:40   Burgwork        if we do go with moin, we need to reconsider how we do doc on the wiki
10:40   nixternal       thats what the topic-based help spec calls for
10:40   nixternal       Kubuntu team members should get the packaging right so that the Kubuntu documents take on the structure decided above.
10:41   nixternal       but when it comes to Kubuntu based stuff, there is one man, mr. Riddell :)
10:41   robotgeek       heh
10:41   tonyyarusso     Does that give us enough direction to move on?
=== Riddell doesn't use a title
10:42   nixternal       heheh
10:42   nixternal       The Grand Puba
10:42   robotgeek       one sec, so essentially we will be editing stuff on the wiki, and merging it back in?
10:42   nixternal       yes robotgeek
10:42   nixternal       which means we will need to watch the pages closely
10:42   somerville32    What about Xubuntu stuff?
10:43   robotgeek       okay. we will definetly need policies on when and how to convert/sync back etc.
10:43   LaserJock       well, we would use ACLs I'm guessing
10:43   nixternal       somerville32: i was wondering the same thing, but everything i have seen is ubuntu and kubuntu ;(
10:43   LaserJock       maybe a little Edubuntu too ;-)
10:43   tonyyarusso     To be discussed with their respective teams more later?
10:43   nixternal       ya, dedfinitely Edubuntu
10:43   robotgeek       does xubuntu not use gnome's help manager?
10:44   LaserJock       ok, but I think we are still going off
10:44   LaserJock       robotgeek: I would think not
10:44   nixternal       LaserJock: if you use ACLs why not continue using the SVN then?
10:44   nixternal       essentially, the SVN has that all taken care of
10:44   LaserJock       we can control the ACLs much better
10:44   nixternal       with moinmoin?
10:44   LaserJock       sure
10:44   nixternal       i guess you need a super power to be able to do that
10:44   LaserJock       sure
10:44   nixternal       hehe
10:44   LaserJock       which we have I believe
10:45   LaserJock       on the other hand you have to get a Canonical admin to do svn
10:45   nixternal       im sure either Burgwork or mdke does
10:46   LaserJock       but I'm still thinking we might be getting ahead of ourselves a little bit
10:46   Burgwork        the advantage with moin is with ease of editing
10:46   Burgwork        nothing to do with access control
10:47   LaserJock       well, I think it might be another advantage
10:47   nixternal       ya, that is why i said we will have to watch those pages like a hawk
10:47   tonyyarusso     (Any chance we can rearrange the order of the Agenda and talk about Open Week next?  That's the only other thing on there I'd like to hear about, but I only have 10 minutes of battery left.)
10:47   Burgwork        open week is this week
10:47   Burgwork        lets talk about that right now
10:47   LaserJock       k
10:47   tonyyarusso     Awesome
=== nixternal sits back
10:47   nixternal       forgot the "and listens" part
10:47   Burgwork        we basically need a todo list, with people to answer
10:47   Burgwork        so here is what I propose:
10:48   Burgwork        fix up the wikitodo and just get people working on that
10:48   LaserJock       where did mdke go?
10:48   Burgwork        lets identify high visibility but low quality pages and then work on them
=== robotgeek will not be able to attend openweek at all, sad
10:48   Burgwork        such as our installation guide
10:48   tonyyarusso     I'd like to propose that we include some basic wiki howto session, syntax/formatting, how to create pages, etc. for people that would like to start writing/editing docs (both ones discussed above and otherwise), but have never used a wiki before.
10:48   Burgwork        yes, that is an excellent idea
10:48   Burgwork        I can lead a mediawiki2moin session
10:49   tonyyarusso     For those who have experience on wikipedia, etc.?
10:49   Burgwork        yes
10:49   tonyyarusso     Sounds good
10:49   LaserJock       ok, so we have 2 hrs right?
10:50   Burgwork        we do? I have not read the OpenWeek thingy
10:50   LaserJock       yeah
10:50   Burgwork        right
10:50   tonyyarusso     Is the /participate page part of our responsibility, or does someone else cover that?  If it's us, make sure that lots of possibilities are listed
10:50   Burgwork        on the website?
10:50   tonyyarusso     yes
10:50   LaserJock       1 hr on wed. and 1 hr on sat.
10:50   Burgwork        sort of
10:51   Burgwork        both mdke and myself can edit the website
10:51   Burgwork        we need to munge in that ContributeToUbuntu and the HelpingUbuntu pages into that one
10:51   tonyyarusso     Okay.  It's probably good as is, but maybe just make one sweep over it to make sure things are included
10:52   LaserJock       ok so we have probably 3 main thing
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10:52   LaserJock       1) intro to doc team, what we do and how to get involved
10:52   LaserJock       2) wiki docs
10:52   LaserJock       3) shipped docs
10:53   tonyyarusso     basically
10:53   Burgwork        yep
10:53   Burgwork        I think there is enough work with just the wik
10:53   Burgwork        wiki
10:54   tonyyarusso     Probably send out something to the ml asking for help going over and touching up high visibility wiki pages over the weekend
10:54   robotgeek       sure, its a good time to fix docs
10:56   Burgwork        yep
10:56   tonyyarusso     Is that all we have on that then?
10:57   robotgeek       looks like :)
10:57   LaserJock       well, mdke needs to know what's going on, we should have a ML thread on it
10:57   robotgeek       sure, i am maintaining minutes :)
10:57   tonyyarusso     Yeah
10:57   tonyyarusso     good move robotgeek
10:58   somerville32    Can I add an item to the agenda? haha
10:58   robotgeek       somerville32: sure, we can discuess it at the end, i guess
10:58   somerville32    Perfect.
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10:58   robotgeek       Riddell: guess you are up
10:59   tonyyarusso     And I'm out.  Have a good rest of the meeting folks.
10:59   robotgeek       tonyyarusso: later
11:01   Riddell mm?
11:01   robotgeek       Riddell: pimping bzr :)
11:01   Riddell oh well, it's dead cool
11:01   Riddell but might be redundant if the whole thing is moving to moin
11:02   Riddell however, incase it's not, bzr is much more flexible than svn
11:02   LaserJock       but it's also messier for a project this size
11:02   Riddell you won't have to rely on sysadmins for access control, and those without access can easily branch and have changed merged in
11:02   Riddell how so?
11:03   LaserJock       having one repo
11:03   LaserJock       simple
11:03   LaserJock       fast
11:03   Riddell bzr is only 1 repo
11:03   Riddell not sure what you mean
11:04   LaserJock       well, I'm imagining you'd need 1 branch for each doc
11:04   LaserJock       or something similar
11:04   Riddell it's also simpler than svn in parts, and not more complex anywhere
11:04   Riddell you wouldn't
11:04   Riddell however it's not as fast, you're right there
11:04   Riddell but that's being worked on
11:04   robotgeek       we don't really branch too much, only on releases.
11:04   Riddell exactly
11:04   LaserJock       it's unpractical for people to carry around 200MB repos
11:04   Riddell that wouldn't change
11:04   LaserJock       robotgeek: that's not what I mean
11:04   Riddell then you can do a checkout --lightweight
=== robotgeek waits, since he has never used bzr
11:05   LaserJock       I think that is still lightweight
11:05   lifeless        hi guys
11:05   lifeless        can I help
11:05   LaserJock       I mean, I'm all for bzr
11:05   LaserJock       but I've already tried
11:06   LaserJock       and it's slow and difficult for people to use in this instance
11:06   Riddell lifeless: I'm trying to presuade them to move from svn to bzr, now that svn imports are working for their svn archive on launchpad
11:06   lifeless        Riddell++
11:06   Riddell LaserJock: what's difficult about it?
11:06   LaserJock       well, people have a hard time figuring out where to put things
11:06   LaserJock       and what the workflow is
11:07   Riddell LaserJock: maybe you havn't tried it in a while, you can do a bzr checkout now, you don't have to branch unless you actually want to
11:07   lifeless        LaserJock: can you be more precise. Perhaps an example ?
11:07   Riddell it's exactfly the same workflow as svn
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11:07   lifeless        LaserJock: i.e. 'when I wanted to add fnor.svg, I did not know what to do'
11:08   Riddell but if you want to branch, if you're doing something experimental or you don't have commit rights, then it's far easier to do so
11:08   LaserJock       ok, well there's 2 things
11:08   Riddell try it now!  bzr checkout sftp://<lpuser>@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-doc/sandbox
11:08   lifeless        LaserJock: go on
11:08   LaserJock       if we do it in "svn-like" mode then there is not much of a distinct advantage for us
11:09   Riddell I've pointed out two major advantages
11:09   LaserJock       perhaps
11:09   lifeless        LaserJock: you said there are two problems where its harder
11:10   lifeless        LaserJock: I'd love it if you could enlarge on that
11:10   LaserJock       well, speed is always an issue
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11:10   LaserJock       granted it's getting better
11:11   LaserJock       the other thing was access
11:11   lifeless        'access' ?
11:11   LaserJock       which hopefully LP will improve
11:11   Riddell anyone in the ubuntu-doc team can commit to that sandbox archive (go ahead and try!)
11:11   LaserJock       heh
11:11   lifeless        LaserJock: what do you mean 'access' ?
11:11   LaserJock       bzr on LP is not exactly user friendly
11:12   Riddell it's a damn site better than svn controlled by a sysadmin
11:12   LaserJock       lifeless: both who gets to commit and what to do with people who can't commit
11:12   lifeless        Riddell: chill out man, lets work through this :)
11:12   LaserJock       yeah, I mean I'm with you guys
11:12   LaserJock       I love bzr
11:12   lifeless        LaserJock: I'm not clear what you mean. Give me an example please.
11:13   LaserJock       ok, so how is a non-docteam member supposed to use bzr?
11:13   lifeless        LaserJock: i.e. 'the doc-team leaders cannot control who can commit to the branch'
11:13   lifeless        LaserJock: bzr checkout http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-doc/sandbox
11:13   LaserJock       ok, then what do they do with it?
11:13   robotgeek       Riddell: i get  ERROR: Not a branch blah
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11:13   lifeless        LaserJock: you tell me, give me a use case,  I'll give you the bzr commands.
11:14   somerville32    bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: /home/ubuntu/sftp:/cody-somerville@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-doc/sandbox/
11:14   robotgeek       nvm
11:14   lifeless        somerville32: install python-paramiko
11:14   lifeless        somerville32: or add '/'after the ':'
11:14   robotgeek       lifeless: your command works, ridell's does not
11:14   robotgeek       i see what you mean by it's slow :)
11:14   lifeless        robotgeek: you need to put your lp username in riddells command, or be in the ubuntu-doc team
11:15   lifeless        robotgeek: you're probably not in the ubuntu-doc team.
11:15   robotgeek       lifeless: no, i am.
11:15   LaserJock       lifeless: Joe wants to contribute to the docs, so he grabs the LP branch but doesn't know what to do with it afterwords
11:15   lifeless        LaserJock: cmon, what does he do with svn today ?
11:15   lifeless        LaserJock: I'll be he makes some changes, runs svn diff and posts the diff right ?
11:15   LaserJock       he sends a patch to the doc team mailing list
11:16   lifeless        LaserJock: so with bzr, he can do *exactly that* today. Nothing new to learn.
11:16   robotgeek       does bzr help in "automating" that process?
11:16   LaserJock       lifeless: so nothing to gain with bzr
11:16   lifeless        LaserJock: but he can also start doing more capable things. like:
11:17   lifeless        making a new branch, which (s)he can now commit to. Then the diff is generate by doing 'bzr bundle', and thats a human readable diff with extra data so that you can see their commits, and track renames etc
11:17   lifeless        also it handles binary file changes like images
11:18   somerville32    I got more errors
11:18   lifeless        LaserJock: so going back to your point, could I reasonably paraphrase it as 'we have no workflow figured out for this new tool' ?
11:18   LaserJock       lifeless: more like "we don't want to change workflow as it works ok now" but yeah
11:18   robotgeek       lifeless: yes, essentially that
11:18   lifeless        so my point here is two fold.
11:18   LaserJock       we can certainly try again
11:19   LaserJock       I've already tried once
11:19   lifeless        a) bzr does not require you to change your workflow.
11:19   nixternal       with bzr however, you flow with the rest of the community as well.  most of the other communities utilize bzr...i personally am all for bzr due to that aspect, plus we don't have to rely on others for access control, speed is getting better, and if we have an issue we can go directly the source w/o issue
11:19   lifeless        b) bzr *allows* you to change your workflow as you gain comfort
11:19   Riddell it doesn't work for me, I lost my svn access and I don't know where to find it
11:19   robotgeek       damn thing is stuck in "phase 0/4"
11:20   nixternal       robotgeek: sit there, you are grabbing a lot ;)
11:20   somerville32    Why don't we have a vote or something? haha
11:20   robotgeek       so, okay. i will put it down as "try it again, and come back to it again"
11:20   nixternal       the initial checkouts with bzr are rediculous, i will give yout hat
11:20   lifeless        robotgeek: its a large initial pull. Once thats pulled all operations will be local, and much faster
11:20   lifeless        so I'd like to suggest something
11:20   LaserJock       well, like I said, we can try it again now that it's on LP
11:20   nixternal       if you did a bzr branch, you will have to commit locally and then push your changes as well
11:20   lifeless        Riddell here knows bzr, and knows your processes.
11:20   nixternal       if you do a --lightweight, then you use it just like svn
11:21   lifeless        nixternal: --lightweight over the internet == extremely slow.
11:21   nixternal       not on mine it isn't
11:21   LaserJock       but really the only problem we've had with svn is access and we were promised that that wouldn't be a problem anymore
11:21   lifeless        nixternal: I cant recommend that until we deploy the hpss server on launchpad sometime in the new year.
11:21   nixternal       then again, i tend to grab the latest from bzr
11:21   lifeless        anyway
11:22   LaserJock       but so far when I've tried bzr for the doc repo it's been slow and somewhat buggy
11:22   lifeless        I want to suggest that rather than deciding right now, you all commit to trying bzr, and rather than saying 'too hard' if theres some friction and learning curve, talk with riddel, or any of the folk on #bzr about it
11:22   LaserJock       sure
11:22   robotgeek       ++
=== nixternal loves bzr
11:22   lifeless        LaserJock: have you filed bugs on https://launchpad.net/products/bzr ?
11:23   LaserJock       lifeless: nope, the are usually reported before I ever find them
11:23   robotgeek       can we move to next point on agenda?
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11:23   lifeless        LaserJock: well please highlight those to me, j-a-meinel or poolie
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11:23   robotgeek       https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuDesktopGuide
11:23   LaserJock       yeah, we need to move on
11:23   lifeless        LaserJock: supporting ubuntu is quite high on our priority list.
11:23   lifeless        tchau, thanks for the time.
11:24   robotgeek       thanks lifeless
11:24   nixternal       thanks lifeless
11:24   somerville32    thanks :]
11:24   nixternal       so, are we going forward with topic-based help?
11:25   robotgeek       hmm, all i am worried about is upstream.
11:25   robotgeek       i really dont want to do all the work of splitting it up, and then not having a tool to view it
11:25   LaserJock       ok, hang on. did we get to what docs we are doing yet?
11:25   nixternal       same here
11:25   robotgeek       LaserJock: i guess not :)
11:26   nixternal       LaserJock: which docs for TBH?
11:26   nixternal       i am guessing the desktop guides at least for right now
11:27   LaserJock       well, are we including any new docs?
11:27   nixternal       i know that we are changing the way the About Kubuntu and the Kubuntu Release Notes with 7.04
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11:28   nixternal       LaserJock: i think working the desktop guides into a TBH system should be the first goal, to try it out
11:28   nixternal       instead of trying multiple docs and it ends up failing miserably
11:28   robotgeek       ++
11:28   LaserJock       heh, what I'm saying is, are we planning on including any additional docs in Feisty?
11:29   robotgeek       i was wondering about the "Switching from windows" thing too
11:29   nixternal       then again...there needs to be a common program to read the TBH docs in order to conform to any uniformity
11:29   LaserJock       another thing is media
11:30   LaserJock       do we want to keep shipping the docs we have been, what about lulu and HTML
11:30   robotgeek       LaserJock: do we know if any people bought from lulu?
11:30   LaserJock       I know of people
11:30   nixternal       i personally enjoy lulu, as i have purchased my printed docs through them in the past..but if im the only one ;p
11:30   robotgeek       html ++, pdf is atrocious (atleast on my machine)
11:31   nixternal       pdf is atrocius w/o a doubt, but good for those doze users who might be interested
11:31   LaserJock       good for any users, IMO
11:32   LaserJock       Burgwork: you still with us?
=== Riddell goes on holiday, bye all
11:32   Burgwork        LaserJock: sort of
11:32   LaserJock       cya Riddell
11:32   nixternal       bye Riddell
11:32   nixternal       Riddell: i have the smb4k updates as well
11:32   nixternal       i will get the packaged and put on revu asap
11:33   robotgeek       lulu is definetly a lot of work, so if there were not a lot of people using lulu, we can still discuss
11:33   robotgeek       Riddell: enjoy
11:33   nixternal       probably need to do an edgy package and possibly dapper to fix this problem as wel
11:33   nixternal       l
11:33   nixternal       can we get in touch with lulu and see if it is really worth it?
11:33   robotgeek       i think from memory, mdke and madpilot did a lot of work. (sorry if i missed any others)
11:34   LaserJock       ok, I wanted to throw out an example of a doc that I liked http://maemo.org/platform/docs/pymaemo/python_maemo_howto.html
11:34   nixternal       the pdf's on the help server can be printed as well...if a person can't print, take the pdf to your local print shop and for less than 5 they will hook you up
11:34   LaserJock       nixternal: mdke should have the stats
11:34   LaserJock       nixternal: he "owns" our lulu account
11:36   robotgeek       so, we stick with html, pdf and will get stats from mdke and decide a bit later?
11:36   LaserJock       that's fine
11:36   nixternal       LaserJock: i like the layout there as well...you have the single page, and then have the pdf/print options up top
11:37   LaserJock       what I'm more interested in is perhaps we should have HTML/PDF only docs
11:37   nixternal       we do don't we? or is there more?
11:38   LaserJock       well, the styleguide is the only thing I can think of that we don't ship
11:38   nixternal       ahh, ok
11:38   robotgeek       LaserJock: you mean only one of the either?
11:39   robotgeek       by ship, we mean with ubuntu cd ?
11:39   LaserJock       yes
11:39   nixternal       we do ship to much
11:39   somerville32    I think more content and less different formats, haha
11:39   nixternal       don't know why i have the server guide on my machie default
11:40   robotgeek       html, we should ship by default. maybe a link to pdf to download from the net?
11:40   somerville32    Like, there is no documentation on how to configure pppoe connection (ie. ADSL)
=== somerville32 nods.
11:40   LaserJock       robotgeek: not what media to ship, what docs to ship
11:40   nixternal       robotgeek: we have to consider those w/o internet though as well
11:40   LaserJock       right
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11:41   robotgeek       oh okay, sorry
11:41   LaserJock       the server guide is also best as a CLI resource
11:41   nixternal       man serverguide ;)
11:41   nixternal       or
11:41   nixternal       info serverguide
11:41   LaserJock       or perhaps lynx serverguide
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11:41   nixternal       info would be better as we can do linking
11:41   robotgeek       do we ship packaging guide with default ubuntu?
11:41   LaserJock       yes
11:41   LaserJock       ubuntu and kubuntu
11:42   robotgeek       maybe that is not necessary, because we dont ship a compiler by defaul anyways?
11:42   LaserJock       you don't have to have a compiler, but you do need other tools
11:42   robotgeek       true. all that you have to install anyways, maybe we mention where to download or install packaging guide in both desktop guides?
11:42   somerville32    Personally, I enjoyed reading the packaging guide when my internet was broken, haha
11:43   LaserJock       what I'm trying to get at here is, what do we want the users to see?
11:43   robotgeek       personally, i would just have the desktop guide, and that's about it.
11:43   LaserJock       and how do we get it to them
11:43   nixternal       ditto
11:43   somerville32    Well, I think how-to configure the net is very very important
11:43   somerville32    And it is lacking right now
11:44   somerville32    Once people get on the internet, there is a ton of resources available to them.
11:44   nixternal       and that will get implemented eventually
11:44   LaserJock       here's the other thing, are people really using the shipped docs?
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11:44   nixternal       LaserJock: we need to figure out what is up with the TBH. people push it, and thats it so far..what all needs to be done on our end?  we need to figure out if we are redesigning, or staying the course ;p
11:45   LaserJock       I don't really see any big thing with TBH
11:45   robotgeek       i doubt it, from the questions i get on irc. i swear, we need a Help icon on the desktop!
11:45   LaserJock       we got a help icon on the panel with Edgy
11:45   nixternal       LaserJock: with the shipped docs, i hear about a 50/50 prospective on that...people like us who have been using the system long enough don't, but our switchers or newbs do
11:45   LaserJock       I believe
11:45   nixternal       and Caroline Ford obviously ;)
11:45   LaserJock       heh
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11:46   robotgeek       who is Caroline Ford? /me missed the joke!
11:46   LaserJock       is it better to give people the essentials they need to get a functioning computer
11:46   nixternal       robotgeek: she is the best ghost proofreader the docteam has
11:46   LaserJock       and then do the rest online
11:47   nixternal       LaserJock: i say yes to that, BUT..what about those w/o the internet? do we remain considerate, or do we go logical
11:47   robotgeek       nixternal: as far as Kubuntu is concerned, i think we want to talk upstream to see if it is feasible to implement topic based help, if it is: we move to TBH, else: we stay current
11:47   nixternal       logical is providing the new user with everything they need to get up and running
11:47   LaserJock       robotgeek: why can't you do it now?
11:48   nixternal       robotgeek: as of right now, it is feasible, but who is going to do the work?
11:48   nixternal       i don't think KHelpCenter is solid enough
11:48   robotgeek       i meant implementing it in time for Feisty.
11:48   nixternal       never honestly
11:48   nixternal       nobody has anything good to push on it..all i have continued to see is talk, no action yet
11:48   nixternal       unless something is going on behind the scenes that i don't know of
11:49   LaserJock       ok, but I really don't understand the problem here
11:49   LaserJock       the proposal is to kinda restructure the Desktop Guide so that it is more topical
11:49   LaserJock       and on the frontpage show that more
11:49   nixternal       LaserJock: the problem would be do we continue utilizing the docbook the way we always have, or do we take a risk with a new way of doing it so it can work with the topic based help
11:49   robotgeek       LaserJock: the problem is, we can create the TBH docs, but if it can't be viewed in the help center, its kinda useless.
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11:50   LaserJock       I really don't get the problem, perhaps I'm dense
11:51   nixternal       or maybe i am ;)
11:51   nixternal       im going with the latter
11:51   robotgeek       okay, now i am confused :)
11:51   nixternal       lol
11:51   LaserJock       well, so we have the desktop guides
11:52   LaserJock       that are written in more of a traditional, book-like fashion
11:53   LaserJock       so we want to restructure it into more bite-sized topical chunks
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11:53   LaserJock       that's doable
11:54   robotgeek       so if i get it straight, the tools to view the docs will not change? (no search,etc)
11:54   LaserJock       so the only problem I see is how do we make a frontpage for people
11:54   nixternal       i think graphically enticing and to the point
11:55   nixternal       are you here for help? do you want to learn more about the operating system? history lesson? etc, etc, etc...
11:55   LaserJock       so perhaps we will need general category pages
11:55   somerville32    I don't think history is important
11:55   somerville32    Well, it is
11:55   somerville32    but not important enough to ship
11:55   nixternal       i just used it for filler
=== somerville32 nods.
11:56   nixternal       well, it has been important to ship since day one though, about ubuntu is a history lesson
11:56   nixternal       although, those are getting merged into ubiquity
11:56   nixternal       so when you install you can read all of that now
11:56   robotgeek       i dont really see an issue with moving the KDG to topic based help, if the end user can view the docs. i guess i had misunderstood
11:56   nixternal       same here robotgeek
11:58   LaserJock       so the only real issue is how to get a khelpcenter front page that works well with our more TBH docs
11:58   robotgeek       on the issue of which docs to ship, is the general consensus to ship only desktop guides (we can ask for input on ml too)
11:58   LaserJock       not necessarily
11:58   LaserJock       it looks like the server guide will be included in the Topic Based Helpl
11:58   nixternal       LaserJock: so the front page will be a seperate doc/entity?
11:58   nixternal       that will then link to the kdg?
11:59   nixternal       or into the chunks
11:59   LaserJock       the chunks
11:59   LaserJock       or something like that
11:59   LaserJock       that's what the Kubuntu guys get to figure out :-)
11:59   nixternal       why not the ubuntu guys?
11:59   LaserJock       cause they will be doing the same thing with yelp
12:00   somerville32    What about Xubuntu?
12:00   nixternal       kubuntu guys got it made, we read html, no xml parsing here ;)
12:00   robotgeek       nixternal: heh
12:00   nixternal       somerville32: that is up to the xubuntu team to decide
12:00   nixternal       although...
12:00   nixternal       they should be in with all of this as well..there is way to much seperation
12:00   LaserJock       hehe, my bzr is still trying to branch the docs
=== somerville32 nods.
12:00   nixternal       and every project has something different
12:00   robotgeek       LaserJock: i cancelled mine
12:01   somerville32    I was told that the main doc group encompassed xubuntu as well
12:01   LaserJock       well, who does Xubuntu docs?
12:01   somerville32    No one really
12:01   nixternal       one person that i have seen
12:01   somerville32    John Levin apparently a contact
12:01   somerville32    But he told me differently
12:01   LaserJock       well, I don't know what they use to view the help
12:01   LaserJock       but it'd be nice if we were all consistent
=== somerville32 nods.
12:02   nixternal       not only consistant, but present
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12:02   LaserJock       nixternal: it looks to me like khelpcenter would need some kind of wrapper doc
12:02   nixternal       jeesh
12:03   nixternal       LaserJock: it wouldn't be any different that yelps, just that we build ours out to html
12:03   LaserJock       well, it's tough to build a doc community
12:03   nixternal       and just as tough to get them all together for a meeting as well
12:03   LaserJock       nixternal: I"m not sure, I get the impression that yelp is pretty beastly for the frontpage
12:04   LaserJock       usually they have to work with upstream to make changes
12:04   nixternal       really
12:04   nixternal       i didn't know that
12:04   nixternal       so maybe KHelpCenter isn't all that bad then ;)
12:04   LaserJock       khelpcenter is just like an index or tree view
12:04   robotgeek       khelpcenter opens up a list of docs. we can't change taht, really. we can decide how to present the desktop gudie frontpage
12:04   LaserJock       yelp actually has a Frontpage
12:04   nixternal       OMG! I just realised I stood someone up tonight..i heard them countdown the lighting of the chicago tree on tv...oh well ;)
12:05   LaserJock       robotgeek: more like a Kubuntu frontpage
12:05   nixternal       oh..ok, i know what you are saying now
12:05   nixternal       that is easy to do
12:05   robotgeek       LaserJock: maybe we can get khelpcenter to open up a different page, lol
12:05   nixternal       we can hide the documentation from the list for just a single front page
12:06   nixternal       oooh...ya, i forgot khelpcenter shows all of the kde docs
12:06   robotgeek       okay, that works for us kubuntu guys, i think.
12:06   nixternal       and we don't want to hide those..those are very important
12:06   nixternal       but when khelp center opens..i got it now
12:06   nixternal       robotgeek: we have a buttload of work possibly ahead of us...
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12:06   robotgeek       nixternal: heh, yeah.
12:07   LaserJock       the least difficult thing, I think, would be to create a wrapper doc
12:07   LaserJock       and only link to that in khelpcenter
12:07   nixternal       we can work on the docs now, and then when Riddell gets back from holliday we can speak with him about changing how khelpcenter opens
12:07   nixternal       that will upset upstream i am sure
12:07   robotgeek       sounds like a plan
12:07   LaserJock       no, it wouldn't touch upstream
12:07   LaserJock       only Kubuntu
12:07   nixternal       they already get upset when we funktify default settings
12:08   nixternal       ya LaserJock, and kubuntu continues to stray away from kde principles that way though
12:08   LaserJock       all I'm saying is only have 1 doc for Kubuntu docs
12:08   nixternal       unless, it is as easy as a khelpcenterrc file
12:08   LaserJock       it's as easy as the .desktop we ship
12:08   nixternal       LaserJock: thats all there is going to be from us..About and Release are part of ubiquity now
12:08   LaserJock       argg
12:09   nixternal       well, the .desktop won't change the layout of khelpcenter
12:09   LaserJock       you're not quite getting what I'm saying I don't think
12:09   nixternal       oooh
12:09   LaserJock       kubuntu-doc ships *1* .desktop that opens up *1* doc
12:09   nixternal       i got what you are saying..and to do that would be to ditch khelpcenter, or ditch/hide the kde docs
12:09   LaserJock       that then provides the links to the TBH
12:10   LaserJock       it doesn't touch upstream
12:10   nixternal       ok, and then have that doc link to all of the kde docs, or open up khelpcenter..possibly a different help viewer for kubuntu alone
12:11   LaserJock       heh
12:11   LaserJock       you're making this harder than I'm saying
12:11   nixternal       right now, when you click help in kubuntu, khelpcenter pops up with a link to every "topic" which then links to "subtopics" which then link to "handbooks" ;)
12:11   robotgeek       is that right, LaserJock ?
12:11   LaserJock       ok, so I open khelpcenter
12:11   nixternal       what you are saying is have it open to Kubuntu TBH, and that is all the user sees, and then they can access the rest from within this 1 doc
12:12   LaserJock       I get a list of the Kubuntu docs
12:12   LaserJock       if I click on kubuntu
12:12   nixternal       you get more than kubuntu docs in khelpcenter
12:12   LaserJock       doesn't matter
12:12   nixternal       kubuntu, and every kde doc possible ;)
12:12   LaserJock       I'm saying you click on "Kubuntu Documents"
12:12   nixternal       but when it opens, that "welcome" screen is what we want?
12:13   LaserJock       you get a lists of docs
12:13   nixternal       ya
12:13   nixternal       just change that?
12:13   LaserJock       instead of having all those docs you could have just 1
12:13   nixternal       easy
12:13   robotgeek       should be possible, we khelpcenter does file arguemnts, i guess
...