{{{

11:02 kjcole    Hullo?  Is there a meeting about to happen?
11:03 Seveas    no
11:03 Seveas    or actually yes
11:03 Seveas    docteam
11:03 Seveas    according to the agenda
11:03 kjcole    Seveas, that's what I thought.  It just seemed a bit quiet.
11:04 Seveas    yeah
11:05 LaserJock I'm here but I will probably be in-and-out
11:06 kjcole    Is anyone supposed to herd the cats?  (I'm just a cat here, not a
                cat-herder.)
11:06 LaserJock lol, seems all the herders are missing :-)
11:07 kjcole    Meow, then.
=== mdke [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
11:08 mdke      any docteam around?
11:09 azeem     23:01 < LaserJock> I'm here but I will probably be in-and-out
11:09 mdke      thanks azeem
11:10 mdke      the agenda is a bit sparse this week...
11:11 kjcole    mdke, ubuntu-doc
11:15 mdke      i'll hang around just in case anyone turns up
11:17 LaserJock so is there a meeting or no?
11:18 mdke      in theory yeah
11:19 LaserJock mdke: are the Burger's going to be here?
11:19 kjcole    I'm making noise in some other channels to see if I can scare up
                people (or cats, as I said earlier).
11:21 mdke      not sure LaserJock
=== kjcole has returned from the wilds of other channels... and it doesn't look
promising.
11:22 mdke      ah, we can talk about the xml vs html issue if anyone has any
                immediate thoughts
11:23 mdke      i only just posted it to the list
11:23 kjcole    OK.  What's a good validating XML editor?
11:24 mdke      i don't know one, why?
11:24 kjcole    I'm fooling around with Conglomerate, but wonder what's available,
                because I'm writing a doc from existing sources in XML.
                My co-editor wants to throw it all out and go with Twisted Matrix's
11:25 kjcole    documentation system Lore.  He's very enthusiastic about it, but I
                see us going off on a tangent.
11:26 kjcole    A few DocTeam members have said "Don't worry about the format.  Worry
                about the content.  We'll take care of the reformatting."
11:26 mdke      is this edubuntu stuff?
11:26 kjcole    It just seemed silly to me not to take advantage of the existing
                format.
11:26 kjcole    mdke, yeah.  Edubuntu.
11:26 mdke      you have a different mailing list for edubuntu docs?
11:27 kjcole    mdke, I think I'm losing track.  I don't know.
11:27 mdke      :)
11:27 mdke      i haven't heard of any of that stuff, so I guess you must!
11:28 kjcole    mdke, it wasn't in a mailing list.  It was either a docteam meeting
                or a edubutu meeting here.  More likely edubutu meeting.
11:28 mdke      ahh
11:29 mdke      well i haven't heard of lore or conglomerate either :)
                mdke, it all blurs together for me as what I'm working on is trying
11:29 kjcole    to get accessible documentation for deaf students = docteam, edubutu,
                accessibility teams.
11:30 mdke      ah interesting
11:30 mdke      but you're not using our repository to store the documentation?
11:30 kjcole    Conglomerate I found when I was looking for a validating XML
                editor.  Haven't played with it much yet, but it looks good.
11:30 mdke      you should feel free to if you like
11:31 kjcole    mdke, trying to learn everything: I'm fooling around in bzr for the
                moment.
11:31 kjcole    mdke, the branch is registered on Launchpad.
11:32 mdke      ah fair enough
11:32 mdke      cookbook?
                mdke, my big concern is that by trying to learn everything, I'll
11:33 kjcole    accomplish nothing.  (XML, DocBook, bzr, RCS in general, launchpad,
                and living in a Debian-like universe, when coming from a a RedHat
                one.)
11:33 kjcole    mdke, yep.  Cookbook.
11:34 mdke      heh
11:34 mdke      i started learning xml and svn together
11:35 mdke      you kinda do whatever you can to get stuff done
                lore is a kind of watered-down XML or watered-up XHTML.  I'm not
11:35 kjcole    really impressed with what I've seen of it.  Docbook XML looks like
                it's more promising, but considerably more complex as well.
11:35 mdke      ah
                "lore" is the command to post-process the pages into something more
11:36 kjcole    standard. Conglomerate on the other hand, is a validating XML editor,
                not an XML processor... at least I don't think it is.
11:37 mdke      k
11:37 mdke      gedit is nice :)
11:39 kjcole    mdke, Does gedit do anything special?  (I thought it was just your
                basic editor.  I've used it a couple of times.)
11:39 mdke      syntax highlighting, more or less ;)
11:39 mdke      i use the validation script in the docteam repo
11:39 kjcole    mdke, we should probably clear outa here, since as a meeting log,
                this is going to be useless to anyone else.
11:40 mdke      yes
11:40 mdke      is anyone interested in talking about any agenda items?
11:40 mdke      any initial thoughts on whether to ship xml or html?
11:42 LaserJock I am but I don't count for much
11:42 LaserJock xml or xhtml?
11:43 mdke      LaserJock,
                http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-December/004486.html
11:44 rob1      hi I'm here
11:44 mdke      rob1, no real meeting to speak of, hope you didnt quit your shopping
                for us
11:44 rob1      no
11:44 mdke      rob1, i was just asking for any initial thoughts on the xml vs html
                thread I just started on -doc and -desktop
=== JanC [n=janc@lugwv/member/JanC] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
11:44 rob1      my wife wants me to burn a cd of photos so we can get them printed
                off
11:45 LaserJock mdke: can we ship both but default to html?
11:45 mdke      LaserJock, shipping both would be kinda confusing for the user
                I think we should ship as html for now if we can, but I might if I
11:46 rob1      get time have a crack at getting yelp to use our xslt if I get the
                time
11:46 LaserJock mdke: does the user have to know?
11:46 mdke      LaserJock, we can ship both but have only one appear in the yelp
                menu, for sure
11:46 LaserJock mdke: that is what I meant
11:46 mdke      rob1, we can do that, but i don't really see the point in forcing the
                user to suffer the speed reduction
11:46 LaserJock I like the sidbar, but it is slow
11:46 LaserJock *sidebar
11:47 rob1      mdke, that is true.
11:47 rob1      how will it effect translations?
11:47 rob1      html that is?
11:47 mdke      rob1, i'm pretty sure it won't affect them
11:47 rob1      mdke, what was the problem last time?
11:47 mdke      rob1, the About Ubuntu icon in the menu needs xml for translations to
                work
11:48 rob1      was that the only thing stopping us from shipping html last time
11:48 rob1      ?
11:49 mdke      afaics
11:49 mdke      that, and the fact that I didn't know how to use scrollkeeper
11:49 rob1      just reading your email now..
11:49 mdke      i'll do some tests on the translations
                even if it doesn't get its own app, can we convert it to xml and load
11:50 rob1      it into launchpad for translations, then convert to html again like
                the rest of our docs?
11:50 mdke      eh?
11:51 mdke      about ubuntu?
11:51 rob1      about ubuntu is html right?
11:51 mdke      it is xml already
11:51 rob1      oh
11:51 mdke      :)
11:51 rob1      thats odd then
11:52 rob1      why couldn't that be shipped as html too along with the rest of our
                docs?
11:52 mdke      it could, if the menu item is going to be something else
11:52 mdke      the launcher from the menu needs it to be in xml
11:52 rob1      why?
=== mdke shrugs
11:53 mdke      the command is "yelp ghelp:about-ubuntu"
11:53 mdke      whatever the hell that is, it wants xml
11:54 rob1      well the yelp man page sucks
11:54 mdke      anything else of interest on the agenda?
11:55 rob1      have you looked at common-tasks.xml today?
11:55 Riddell   what's the status of single or split kubuntu/ubuntu packaging?
11:55 mdke      not closelyt
11:55 mdke      Riddell, where we left it I think. I can summarise:
11:55 mdke      "Hopefully we can get dholbach to do the work"
11:55 rob1      brian added some cd burning stuff, I think the whole page needs a
                face lift
11:56 Riddell   no dholbach here today I see
11:56 mdke      Riddell, nah he's gone to bed i think
=== rob1 adds it to things to do list
11:56 Riddell   oh yes, I forget these europeans live in the future
11:56 mdke      rob1, i'd like to have a good extended discussion on the desktopguide
11:56 mdke      Riddell, you're not european up there huh? >_<
11:56 Riddell   not in the US I'm not :)
11:57 rob1      mdke, what about it?
11:57 mdke      Riddell, you moved there?
11:57 Riddell   no, just this week
11:57 mdke      phew
=== Riddell currently in Linus Torvald's office
=== Judax_ [n=troywill@adsl-67-67-221-178.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined
#ubuntu-meeting
11:57 mdke      Riddell, don't forget you're european tho, even while there
11:58 mdke      that's pretty cool
11:58 Riddell   they haven't assimilated yet, I don't even drink this Diet Mountain
                Due they feed us
11:58 rob1      ok I've got to go
                rob1, those things I mailed you about: handling software
11:58 mdke      installation, and structure of sections (qanda or split <para> and
                qanda)
11:58 LaserJock Riddell:  Mountain Dew ;-)
11:58 mdke      Riddell, good man
11:59 rob1      mdke, when I get time later today I will respond to all that
11:59 mdke      rob1, great, in the meantime, i'm working on the css
11:59 LaserJock did the common preface, etc. get discussed
11:59 rob1      mdke, good :)
11:59 mdke      LaserJock, not yet, i'll raise it with rob later on
12:00 mdke      LaserJock, best to discuss on the list first I think, so rob and
                bhuvan can both comment
12:00 rob1      just quickly, I stole the preface for the faqguide because it needed
                extra info/some things changed to fit in
12:00 mdke      we can talk it over via email
12:00 rob1      I can't see why we can't have the one universal one though, but make
                sure it is a valid xml file (with a header) so we can xinclude it
12:01 rob1      then it only has to be translated once
12:01 mdke      +1
12:01 rob1      :)
12:01 rob1      ok got to go
12:01 rob1      bye
12:01 LaserJock cya
12:01 mdke      bye
12:01 mdke      Judax, thanks for coming, the meeting is a bit of a damp squib
12:01 mdke      we're just chatting
12:01 mdke      :)
12:02 Judax     well, that is fun too
12:02 LaserJock so what is the purpose of using xml then if we are just going to ship
                html?
12:02 Judax     sounds like you are all drunk on mountain dew?
12:02 LaserJock Pepsi for me ;P
12:02 mdke      LaserJock, docbook xml is more flexible for exporting to different
                formats, and we can translate it, too
12:03 LaserJock mdke: but if everything is html then you don't have different
                formats. HTML is harder to translate than XML?
12:03 mdke      yeah
12:04 mdke      LaserJock, and don't forget we might want to make pdf's, that sort of
                thing
12:04 mdke      but the translation is very important
12:04 LaserJock mdke: right
12:04 mdke      it's crazy hard to make pot files from html

12:04 LaserJock I have nothing against XML, I was just
                playing devil's advocate
12:04 mdke      np
12:05 mdke      that's good

}}}