{{{ 03:03 klepas hi all 03:03 jjesse morning klepas 03:03 Madpilot morning everyone 03:03 jsgotangco morning 03:04 klepas people not officially involved in the doc team can voice opinions and tag along, right? 03:04 jsgotangco of course 03:04 jjesse of course 03:04 Madpilot ...still dark out here... barely morning at all... :) 03:04 jjesse grin 9am here, beautiful snowy december morning 03:04 jjesse 4 inches over night === jsgotangco misses snow 03:05 jsgotangco who's here? 03:05 jsgotangco do we have the numbers to actually hold a meeting? 03:06 jjesse i'm here 03:06 jsgotangco ok let's wait a big just in case 03:07 jjesse doing an OEM install of Dapper flight2 and have had no issues this monring 03:07 jjesse of kubuntu 03:07 jsgotangco wow 03:07 jsgotangco mine in ubuntu is just borked 03:07 jsgotangco i have yet to burn the image of kubuntu though 03:07 jjesse i love the boot screen 03:08 jsgotangco but i'll be doing a good number of updates on the quickguide 03:08 jjesse though how do you do a screen shot of it to include in the doc? 03:08 jsgotangco yeah 03:08 jsgotangco it'll be great 03:08 Madpilot jjesse: with an actual camera? :) 03:08 klepas 01:08 here 03:08 klepas AM :) 03:08 klepas and 30 degrees 03:09 Madpilot -1 C at 0609 here, and sunrise isn't until 0759... bleh 03:10 jsgotangco hmm we don't seem to have the numbers 03:10 jsgotangco Madpilot, -1 C isn't that cold 03:10 jjesse where is everyone? 03:10 klepas Canberra, Australia 03:10 jsgotangco klepas, we meant the other team contributors :) 03:11 jsgotangco hmm lots posted in the agenda but no one came :) 03:12 jjesse jsgotangco: for release notes are we updatign just what has changed since the last release? 03:12 jsgotangco have you seen DapperReleaseNotes? 03:12 jjesse yeah 03:12 jsgotangco there isn't that much but yeah i should update that this weekend 03:13 jjesse have you seen DapperFlight2 ? 03:13 jsgotangco it should get packaged by Flight 3 03:13 jsgotangco yeah but thats more of a marketing doc :) 03:13 jjesse if somoene lets me know in time i can do a kubuntuflight3 page 03:13 jsgotangco but good nonetheless 03:13 jjesse that would liook like that 03:13 jsgotangco its awesome 03:13 jsgotangco matt did good on that one 03:13 jsgotangco actually the flight 2 docs are very VERY good 03:14 jjesse yeah but it would have been cool to have a Kubuntu one ready as well :( 03:14 jsgotangco yeah let's fix that 03:14 jsgotangco mdke seems to have convered good on ubuntu 03:14 jsgotangco DRAKE IS A DRAGON AND KUBUNTU HAS A KONQUI 03:14 jsgotangco =) 03:15 jjesse cackle 03:15 jjesse klepas: did you have something you wanted to share? 03:15 jsgotangco klepas, yeah dude good time to do so 03:15 jsgotangco Madpilot, what happened to Burgy? 03:15 jsgotangco work perhaps 03:15 jsgotangco ? 03:16 Madpilot jsgotangco: he's a lazy SOB? ;) 03:16 jsgotangco haha 03:16 jsgotangco Madpilot, how's docbook treating you? 03:16 jjesse Madpilot: stupid question you are working on??? 03:16 Madpilot I'm not swearing at it quite as much 03:17 Madpilot jjesse: I just did the BitTorrent entry for common-tasks.xml - not sure if that patch has been applied yet though 03:17 jsgotangco yeah it can be a bitch sometimes 03:17 Madpilot I posted it to the list last night 03:17 jjesse Madpilot: i just get confused on who is working on what :) 03:17 jsgotangco Madpilot, i'll patch it now 03:17 klepas jsgotangco: sorry 03:17 klepas multitasking === jsgotangco searches for the patch 03:18 Madpilot jjesse: you still available for Sunday's Desktop Guide meeting? 03:19 jsgotangco we have a desktop meeting? 03:19 jsgotangco WE'RE NOT IDIOTS UNLIKE YOU GUYS 03:19 jsgotangco haha 03:19 jsgotangco joke 03:19 Madpilot we've been talking about one for Sunday - 1700 UTC I think 03:20 jjesse i should be available 03:20 jjesse hmm i'm -5 UTC so i should be out of church by then 03:21 jsgotangco Madpilot, slobs didn't apply your patch =) 03:22 Madpilot I didn't think it had gone in yet 03:22 jjesse didn't see it come across 03:22 Madpilot I sent the email about 8hrs ago now... 03:23 jsgotangco no worries 03:23 jsgotangco Madpilot, next time we'll guarantee your patch gets applied in 2 hours or your money back =) 03:23 Madpilot :P 03:24 jjesse i'll double your money if its not applied 03:24 jsgotangco and will even topup a fresh commit account 03:24 jsgotangco lol 03:25 Madpilot hmmm... if we're not going to have an actual meeting, maybe we should stop filling the -meeting logs here and head back to -doc? === mdke [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 03:26 jsgotangco speak of the devils 03:26 jsgotangco holy diff errors Madpilot === mhz [n=mhz_chil@moinmoin/fan/mhz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 03:27 Madpilot jsgotangco: hmm? what's up? === jsgotangco reverts the doc first 03:27 mdke hello all 03:27 jsgotangco its been a while since i patched the docs here better let mdke do it :) === jsgotangco should familiarize himself with the svn again 03:28 jsgotangco lots of xref issues 03:28 mdke jsgotangco, validate the desktopguide.xml 03:28 jsgotangco ohhhh 03:28 jsgotangco Madpilot, see? 03:28 jsgotangco =) 03:29 jsgotangco ahh 03:29 jsgotangco no issue then =) 03:29 mdke any meeting action? 03:29 jsgotangco not so much we were waiting for the o great packager =) 03:29 Nafallo what meeting? :-) 03:30 mdke Nafallo, topic? 03:30 jsgotangco mdke, we got lots in the agenda but no bhuvan 03:31 mdke hmm 03:31 mdke rob1? 03:31 Nafallo ah 03:31 mdke dholbach, around? 03:32 mdke Riddell, around? 03:32 Riddell always baby 03:32 mdke heh, yeah true 03:32 jsgotangco Madpilot, applied! 10 brownie points added =) 03:32 mdke well how about we deal with a few agenda items? 03:33 mdke the first two have been around way too long 03:33 Madpilot jsgotangco: thanks 03:33 jjesse back sorrry 03:33 mdke dholbach, Riddell, has any progress been made on the "single source for (k)ubuntu-docs" issue? === guilhermee [n=x@200164038026.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 03:34 Riddell mdke: not to my knowledge 03:34 jsgotangco jjesse, whoa that was fast 03:35 mdke Riddell, any strong views either way? 03:35 mdke it would be nice, but I have no feel for the difficulty/triviality of what it would take mdke: I think it would still be nice since it would stop us having to 03:35 Riddell do externals to the generic documents in kubuntu, but it's not a major issue 03:35 Riddell wouldn't be that difficult, just takes doing 03:35 jsgotangco whaddaya mean single source? 03:35 Riddell and I don't have time for it 03:36 mdke jsgotangco, building both packages from the same source package 03:36 jsgotangco right Riddell, right, I suggest we remove this from the agenda and I'll 03:36 mdke take it up with Daniel when I next encounter him. If we can do it, we will. otherwise, in the meantime, shall we put the external back? 03:37 Riddell yes, I'll probably do that today 03:37 mdke great 03:37 mdke ok that issue is dealt with 03:38 mdke agenda item 1 is "toolchain for kubuntu docs". this was about using meinproc for building kubuntu docs 03:38 jjesse i think we left that as undecided last time we tlaked about it on the mailing list 03:38 mdke yeah afaict I was the only one with an objection to this, so I'm happy to 03:39 mdke stand aside and for us to continue using meinproc, if no one else objects === jsgotangco has no experience with it but heard its pretty good 03:39 Riddell jsgotangco: it lacks xincludes is the problm 03:39 Riddell problem 03:39 jsgotangco ahhh 03:39 mdke oh yeah crap forgot about that 03:39 Riddell so it means that generic docs can't use xincludes 03:39 mdke and the kubuntu docs can't either 03:40 Riddell well nobody objects if edit kubuntu docs :) 03:40 Riddell if I edit 03:41 mdke no, but if people want to work on both, they'll have to get used to two different procedures, which is a shame 03:41 mdke plus you've got the fact that include/excluding external things from translations is easier with xincludes 03:42 jjesse if it is easier for translations will that make kubuntu docs more easily available in rosetta? jjesse, we can make them available in rosetta anyway, but it is more 03:43 mdke difficult to specify what to include and what to exclude when you're dealing with entities rather than xincludes 03:43 jjesse now i don't totally understand it, but wouldn't it be easier to just keep it simple? 03:44 mdke well meinproc also has some advantages, as Riddell posted. So it's a question of balancing up. 03:45 Riddell like working with KDE :) 03:45 mdke Riddell, well i have few doubts that we can make the html docs built with the other tool work with kde too 03:46 mdke the styling is certainly not a problem. 03:47 mdke the issues were something to do with compression, right? 03:48 Riddell compression and splitting up into .html files 03:48 mdke xsltproc splits up into .html files too 03:48 mdke can the compression be done manually, or not at all? 03:52 Riddell it can be done manually 03:52 Riddell it would just take a lot of hassle with the style sheets and scripting 03:54 mdke Riddell, well I think it should be your call, but I'm really pretty against having to remove xincludes from the generic docs 03:54 mdke is there literally no way meinproc will be happy with xincludes? 03:55 Riddell I don't have time to do anything other than meinproc 03:55 Riddell no, it doesn't support them 03:55 jjesse Riddell or mdke is it somthing that one of you could teach me to do so i could take care of it? 03:56 jjesse or is it just faster to do it your self? 03:56 Riddell faster not to do it :) 03:56 mdke well given that the breezy package didn't use meinproc, it wouldn't be very difficult to revert to that system 03:57 mdke the question is, how bad are the breezy kubuntu docs? 03:57 jjesse bad packaging wise? 03:57 mdke yeah, obviously not content wise 03:57 mdke are the stylesheets ok? you'd need to edit the KDE stylesheet to generate separate .html 03:57 Riddell files then glue them all together with then compress them 03:57 Riddell they're not valid HTML 03:58 mdke why not? 03:58 mdke how about we use the standard docbook-xsl stylesheets, and apply the kde css, like we do for ubuntu-docs? 03:58 mdke would that help? 03:58 Riddell all the stuff is in there 03:59 Riddell no, the kde css is designed for the KDE xsl 04:00 mdke Riddell, well it's not like it's complex css. It is basically just a few colours, I'm sure we can make any necessary tweaks 04:00 Riddell go ahead, as I say I've no time for it : 04:00 Riddell :) 04:00 mdke again, ubuntu-docs looks ok (imo) 04:00 mdke or if it doesn't, it will 04:00 jsgotangco go go go mdke ! 04:01 mdke ? 04:01 mdke tell you what 04:01 mdke i'll try and knock something up, and we can see what it looks like 04:04 mdke Riddell, is meinproc actively developed? can we bitch at someone about supporting xincludes? 04:05 Riddell i don't think it's been developed for some time, hopefully it'll go away for kde 4 04:06 mdke hmm 04:06 mdke well the ubuntu-docs stuff is definitely valid (x)html, so I'll try and knock something up that you're happy with 04:08 Riddell groovy 04:09 mdke anyone else still here? 04:09 jjesse i am 04:10 mdke any agenda items you'd like to discuss? 04:10 jsgotangco mmm 04:10 jjesse not really, i know a group of us are getting together sunday for a desktop guide mtg 04:10 jsgotangco we're going to update kubuntu doc soon 04:10 mdke cool 04:10 jsgotangco jjesse, but we're not part of *that* group =) 04:11 mdke i'd definitely like to discuss the xml/html question. There has been almost no discussion on the list about this :( === jsgotangco trolls 04:11 mdke proposal was http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-December/004486.html 04:11 jsgotangco mdke, i really like the way you did for flight 2 packaging both 04:11 mdke with the exception of a thumbs up from mpt, I've seen no real response 04:11 jsgotangco because of that we can easily compare what is better or not 04:12 mdke cool 04:12 mdke any views? 04:12 mdke I'm 100% in favour of html 04:12 jsgotangco translation issues? 04:12 mdke there are no translation issues 04:12 mdke obviously we'd continue to write in xml 04:12 mdke the translations would be fine 04:13 Madpilot so we'd continue to write in Docbook XML, but ship the converted HTML? 04:13 mdke that is the proposal yeah === mdke thinks Madpilot would prefer not to write in docbook :) === guilhermee [n=x@200164038026.user.veloxzone.com.br] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] 04:13 jsgotangco yes 04:14 Madpilot I'm getting slightly more used to it :) but HTML is so much easier & less verbose 04:14 mhz jsgotangco: offered to make my ODP into docbook for edubuntu, so I'll start docing finally 04:14 mhz thx jsgotangco 04:14 mdke Madpilot, but more inflexible :( === mhz wrote that regarding translations :) 04:14 mdke so any views on the proposal? 04:14 jjesse i would prefer to continue to write in docbook, i've leared enough of it to continue using 04:15 jsgotangco mhz, i dunno about translation the current doc that'll mean rewriting code 04:15 Madpilot mdke: yeah, I know why Docbook is in use - there are actual good reasons 04:15 jsgotangco mhz, it would be ok if its a new doc though 04:15 mdke yep 04:15 jsgotangco but not an existing one 04:15 mhz jsgotangco: okis, no prob. 04:15 mhz even easier then 04:15 jsgotangco mhz, translating an existing work is much easier (go to rosetta) 04:15 mdke Madpilot, jsgotangco, jjesse, any views on the proposal 04:15 mdke ? 04:15 mhz indeed 04:16 jsgotangco i like the html css at the moment 04:16 mdke me too, and the speed 04:16 jsgotangco its basically moz rendering right? 04:16 mdke yep 04:16 jsgotangco even better 04:16 mdke yelp renders in html anyway 04:16 mdke but if we ship in xml, it has to do the conversion on-the-fly 04:16 mdke whereas if we ship html, we do it at the build 04:17 mdke hence the speed difference as i don't understand the packaging/rendering process the greatest 04:17 jjesse yet, need to learn it, as long as i keep editing the docs in docbook format it shouldn't matter to me what we render in 04:17 jjesse and i have never looked at the ubuntu-docs in gnome, haven't used ubuntu so i can't comment on how yelp loos 04:17 mdke fair enough 04:17 jsgotangco yeah but you have to admit, yelp has improved on speed, but still not good enough 04:18 mdke yelp is fairly quick at displaying html, just slow with xml, understadably 04:18 Madpilot any idea when Yelp is going to get search functions? 04:18 mdke Madpilot, no, but it doesn't make a difference to this issue, because yelp will be the help viewer, regardless of what we decide 04:18 jsgotangco i believe upstream already has it 04:19 jsgotangco Madpilot, oh wait sorry, i meant Printing support 04:19 jsgotangco RAD 04:19 mdke o.o 04:20 mdke as jjesse said the other day, printing support is the most basic function ever 04:20 mdke it really should have had that ages ago ;) mdke: that's the last major piece of functionality missing from Yelp, 04:20 Madpilot so I was just wondering - as for HTML/XML, shipping HTML = faster rendering, which is rarely a bad thing... 04:20 jjesse and search 04:20 jsgotangco khelpcenter had that years ago 04:21 mdke Madpilot, yeah, i don't really see any advantage in shipping xml 04:21 jsgotangco its l337! 04:22 mdke also, the serverguide really has to be in html 04:22 mdke because many servers won't have an xml viewer 04:22 jjesse or viewable in text? if i don't have a gui installed :) 04:22 jsgotangco bah! we only need vi! 04:22 jjesse emacs 04:22 mdke jjesse, yeah that's what I mean, html is viewable easily from the command line, xml isn't 04:23 mdke any more views on this item? 04:23 jjesse nope 04:23 jsgotangco bundle qemacs 04:23 jsgotangco lol 04:23 jjesse nano 04:24 jsgotangco jjesse, qemacs renders docbook :P 04:24 jjesse ah 04:24 mdke some more agenda items? 04:24 mdke Cleaning unnecessary/unmaintained documents from svn repository (Bhuvan) 04:24 mdke ? 04:24 jjesse i think i took care of the kubuntu docs 04:24 jsgotangco don't clean up too much yet :) 04:24 mdke i have no objection to removing documents which are unmaintained and are no further use 04:25 mdke jsgotangco, what about edubuntu, what shall we do with that? 04:25 jsgotangco stay it for a while, i'm observing current work in bzr 04:25 jsgotangco as well my upstream gnome doc 04:25 jsgotangco promised mvo will update it next week 04:25 jsgotangco before we move it to his rep 04:25 mdke can't that be hosted in gnome cvs? 04:26 jsgotangco because g-a-i will have a massive change 04:26 jsgotangco sure 04:26 jsgotangco let me piggyback for a week more =) 04:26 mdke ok we'll leave ubuntu/upstream/gai 04:26 mdke what about update-manager? 04:26 jsgotangco not so sure if that is being updated 04:26 mdke presumably this is upstream already? 04:26 jsgotangco it was sean's doc 04:26 jsgotangco can't say 04:26 jsgotangco i could check 04:27 mdke that would be good 04:27 jsgotangco they don't eat that much space anyways 04:27 mdke true 04:27 jsgotangco until i verify i'll take responsibiility for the two 04:27 mdke ok 04:27 mdke i don't think saving space in there is a high priority 04:27 jsgotangco nahh 04:27 mdke daniel recently wrote a script to reduce the size of the source tarball by excluding anything that isn't used 04:28 mdke that has cut it down from 30 to 10MB 04:28 jsgotangco wow 04:28 jsgotangco he can really conjure voodoo huh 04:28 mdke :) 04:28 mdke jsgotangco, what about your accessibility agenda item? 04:32 jsgotangco well i haven't started that much on it yet but we decided to go wiki first 04:32 jsgotangco once we clean it up, the a11y team can decide if its going in 04:32 mdke ok 04:32 mdke that was easy 04:32 jsgotangco so far we're doing good on a11y 04:32 mdke good 04:33 mdke ok as for the 2 remaining items 04:33 mdke the updating the status reports, I think just need to be worked on, we don't need to discuss it, unless anyone wants to 04:33 mdke the sharing of prefaces, we can talk about on sunday IMO 04:34 mdke since it is very much a faqguide issue 04:34 jsgotangco whats on sunday? 04:34 mdke faqguide/desktopguide 04:34 mdke jsgotangco, a meeting about the desktopguide 04:34 jsgotangco oh === jsgotangco havent been attentive to emails lately 04:34 mdke too busy :) 04:34 jsgotangco incredibly === jsgotangco has a contract at the moment with IOSN 04:35 mdke oh 04:35 mdke how about another agenda item 04:35 mdke commit access for Madpilot? 04:35 mdke gets the +1 from me 04:35 jsgotangco me too 04:35 jsgotangco mdke, www.iosn.net 04:35 Madpilot I'm not a Member yet - planning on that for Jan. 04:36 mdke oh god this bloody member rule 04:36 jsgotangco Madpilot, you're a shoo-in 04:36 jsgotangco mdke, =) 04:36 mdke pah 04:36 mdke i miss ONE meeting, and you guys make this stupid rule ;) 04:36 jsgotangco bah we had good quorum and a majority of devs === mdke shakes head sadly the exact time still hasn't been annoucned for the the Dec. 20th CC 04:37 Madpilot meeting - if it's another 1400Z meeting, I can make that and put my name down beforehand 04:38 mdke gah 04:38 Madpilot if it's going to be 2200Z, I'll be at work, I'm afraid... 04:38 mdke don't they do them at 2000? 04:38 jsgotangco yikes! 04:39 mdke it is much more difficult for doc team contributors to get membership without having commit access first :( 04:39 mdke Madpilot is going to have to wait until february or so before we can add him... 04:39 jsgotangco jdub's wife is also getting active in iosn 04:40 Madpilot mdke: I'll just keep spamming the list with patches until then - and complaining about XML :P 04:40 mdke Madpilot, ok, we'll keep applying em 04:40 mdke meeting adjourned? 04:41 jsgotangco sure 04:41 jsgotangco we got good mileage really 04:41 mdke ok }}}