DocTeam_2005-12-16
03:03 klepas hi all
03:03 jjesse morning klepas
03:03 Madpilot morning everyone
03:03 jsgotangco morning
03:04 klepas people not officially involved in the doc team can voice opinions and
tag along, right?
03:04 jsgotangco of course
03:04 jjesse of course
03:04 Madpilot ...still dark out here... barely morning at all... :)
03:04 jjesse grin 9am here, beautiful snowy december morning
03:04 jjesse 4 inches over night
=== jsgotangco misses snow
03:05 jsgotangco who's here?
03:05 jsgotangco do we have the numbers to actually hold a meeting?
03:06 jjesse i'm here
03:06 jsgotangco ok let's wait a big just in case
03:07 jjesse doing an OEM install of Dapper flight2 and have had no issues this
monring
03:07 jjesse of kubuntu
03:07 jsgotangco wow
03:07 jsgotangco mine in ubuntu is just borked
03:07 jsgotangco i have yet to burn the image of kubuntu though
03:07 jjesse i love the boot screen
03:08 jsgotangco but i'll be doing a good number of updates on the quickguide
03:08 jjesse though how do you do a screen shot of it to include in the doc?
03:08 jsgotangco yeah
03:08 jsgotangco it'll be great
03:08 Madpilot jjesse: with an actual camera? :)
03:08 klepas 01:08 here
03:08 klepas AM :)
03:08 klepas and 30 degrees
03:09 Madpilot -1 C at 0609 here, and sunrise isn't until 0759... bleh
03:10 jsgotangco hmm we don't seem to have the numbers
03:10 jsgotangco Madpilot, -1 C isn't that cold
03:10 jjesse where is everyone?
03:10 klepas Canberra, Australia
03:10 jsgotangco klepas, we meant the other team contributors :)
03:11 jsgotangco hmm lots posted in the agenda but no one came :)
03:12 jjesse jsgotangco: for release notes are we updatign just what has changed
since the last release?
03:12 jsgotangco have you seen DapperReleaseNotes?
03:12 jjesse yeah
03:12 jsgotangco there isn't that much but yeah i should update that this weekend
03:13 jjesse have you seen DapperFlight2 ?
03:13 jsgotangco it should get packaged by Flight 3
03:13 jsgotangco yeah but thats more of a marketing doc :)
03:13 jjesse if somoene lets me know in time i can do a kubuntuflight3 page
03:13 jsgotangco but good nonetheless
03:13 jjesse that would liook like that
03:13 jsgotangco its awesome
03:13 jsgotangco matt did good on that one
03:13 jsgotangco actually the flight 2 docs are very VERY good
03:14 jjesse yeah but it would have been cool to have a Kubuntu one ready as well
:(
03:14 jsgotangco yeah let's fix that
03:14 jsgotangco mdke seems to have convered good on ubuntu
03:14 jsgotangco DRAKE IS A DRAGON AND KUBUNTU HAS A KONQUI
03:14 jsgotangco =)
03:15 jjesse cackle
03:15 jjesse klepas: did you have something you wanted to share?
03:15 jsgotangco klepas, yeah dude good time to do so
03:15 jsgotangco Madpilot, what happened to Burgy?
03:15 jsgotangco work perhaps
03:15 jsgotangco ?
03:16 Madpilot jsgotangco: he's a lazy SOB? ;)
03:16 jsgotangco haha
03:16 jsgotangco Madpilot, how's docbook treating you?
03:16 jjesse Madpilot: stupid question you are working on???
03:16 Madpilot I'm not swearing at it quite as much
03:17 Madpilot jjesse: I just did the BitTorrent entry for common-tasks.xml - not
sure if that patch has been applied yet though
03:17 jsgotangco yeah it can be a bitch sometimes
03:17 Madpilot I posted it to the list last night
03:17 jjesse Madpilot: i just get confused on who is working on what :)
03:17 jsgotangco Madpilot, i'll patch it now
03:17 klepas jsgotangco: sorry
03:17 klepas multitasking
=== jsgotangco searches for the patch
03:18 Madpilot jjesse: you still available for Sunday's Desktop Guide meeting?
03:19 jsgotangco we have a desktop meeting?
03:19 jsgotangco WE'RE NOT IDIOTS UNLIKE YOU GUYS
03:19 jsgotangco haha
03:19 jsgotangco joke
03:19 Madpilot we've been talking about one for Sunday - 1700 UTC I think
03:20 jjesse i should be available
03:20 jjesse hmm i'm -5 UTC so i should be out of church by then
03:21 jsgotangco Madpilot, slobs didn't apply your patch =)
03:22 Madpilot I didn't think it had gone in yet
03:22 jjesse didn't see it come across
03:22 Madpilot I sent the email about 8hrs ago now...
03:23 jsgotangco no worries
03:23 jsgotangco Madpilot, next time we'll guarantee your patch gets applied in 2
hours or your money back =)
03:23 Madpilot :P
03:24 jjesse i'll double your money if its not applied
03:24 jsgotangco and will even topup a fresh commit account
03:24 jsgotangco lol
03:25 Madpilot hmmm... if we're not going to have an actual meeting, maybe we should
stop filling the -meeting logs here and head back to -doc?
=== mdke [n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
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03:26 jsgotangco speak of the devils
03:26 jsgotangco holy diff errors Madpilot
=== mhz [n=mhz_chil@moinmoin/fan/mhz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
03:27 Madpilot jsgotangco: hmm? what's up?
=== jsgotangco reverts the doc first
03:27 mdke hello all
03:27 jsgotangco its been a while since i patched the docs here better let mdke do it
:)
=== jsgotangco should familiarize himself with the svn again
03:28 jsgotangco lots of xref issues
03:28 mdke jsgotangco, validate the desktopguide.xml
03:28 jsgotangco ohhhh
03:28 jsgotangco Madpilot, see?
03:28 jsgotangco =)
03:29 jsgotangco ahh
03:29 jsgotangco no issue then =)
03:29 mdke any meeting action?
03:29 jsgotangco not so much we were waiting for the o great packager =)
03:29 Nafallo what meeting? :-)
03:30 mdke Nafallo, topic?
03:30 jsgotangco mdke, we got lots in the agenda but no bhuvan
03:31 mdke hmm
03:31 mdke rob1?
03:31 Nafallo ah
03:31 mdke dholbach, around?
03:32 mdke Riddell, around?
03:32 Riddell always baby
03:32 mdke heh, yeah true
03:32 jsgotangco Madpilot, applied! 10 brownie points added =)
03:32 mdke well how about we deal with a few agenda items?
03:33 mdke the first two have been around way too long
03:33 Madpilot jsgotangco: thanks
03:33 jjesse back sorrry
03:33 mdke dholbach, Riddell, has any progress been made on the "single source
for (k)ubuntu-docs" issue?
=== guilhermee [n=x@200164038026.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
03:34 Riddell mdke: not to my knowledge
03:34 jsgotangco jjesse, whoa that was fast
03:35 mdke Riddell, any strong views either way?
03:35 mdke it would be nice, but I have no feel for the difficulty/triviality of
what it would take
mdke: I think it would still be nice since it would stop us having to
03:35 Riddell do externals to the generic documents in kubuntu, but it's not a
major issue
03:35 Riddell wouldn't be that difficult, just takes doing
03:35 jsgotangco whaddaya mean single source?
03:35 Riddell and I don't have time for it
03:36 mdke jsgotangco, building both packages from the same source package
03:36 jsgotangco right
Riddell, right, I suggest we remove this from the agenda and I'll
03:36 mdke take it up with Daniel when I next encounter him. If we can do it, we
will. otherwise, in the meantime, shall we put the external back?
03:37 Riddell yes, I'll probably do that today
03:37 mdke great
03:37 mdke ok that issue is dealt with
03:38 mdke agenda item 1 is "toolchain for kubuntu docs". this was about using
meinproc for building kubuntu docs
03:38 jjesse i think we left that as undecided last time we tlaked about it on the
mailing list
03:38 mdke yeah
afaict I was the only one with an objection to this, so I'm happy to
03:39 mdke stand aside and for us to continue using meinproc, if no one else
objects
=== jsgotangco has no experience with it but heard its pretty good
03:39 Riddell jsgotangco: it lacks xincludes is the problm
03:39 Riddell problem
03:39 jsgotangco ahhh
03:39 mdke oh yeah crap forgot about that
03:39 Riddell so it means that generic docs can't use xincludes
03:39 mdke and the kubuntu docs can't either
03:40 Riddell well nobody objects if edit kubuntu docs :)
03:40 Riddell if I edit
03:41 mdke no, but if people want to work on both, they'll have to get used to
two different procedures, which is a shame
03:41 mdke plus you've got the fact that include/excluding external things from
translations is easier with xincludes
03:42 jjesse if it is easier for translations will that make kubuntu docs more
easily available in rosetta?
jjesse, we can make them available in rosetta anyway, but it is more
03:43 mdke difficult to specify what to include and what to exclude when you're
dealing with entities rather than xincludes
03:43 jjesse now i don't totally understand it, but wouldn't it be easier to just
keep it simple?
03:44 mdke well meinproc also has some advantages, as Riddell posted. So it's a
question of balancing up.
03:45 Riddell like working with KDE :)
03:45 mdke Riddell, well i have few doubts that we can make the html docs built
with the other tool work with kde too
03:46 mdke the styling is certainly not a problem.
03:47 mdke the issues were something to do with compression, right?
03:48 Riddell compression and splitting up into .html files
03:48 mdke xsltproc splits up into .html files too
03:48 mdke can the compression be done manually, or not at all?
03:52 Riddell it can be done manually
03:52 Riddell it would just take a lot of hassle with the style sheets and
scripting
03:54 mdke Riddell, well I think it should be your call, but I'm really pretty
against having to remove xincludes from the generic docs
03:54 mdke is there literally no way meinproc will be happy with xincludes?
03:55 Riddell I don't have time to do anything other than meinproc
03:55 Riddell no, it doesn't support them
03:55 jjesse Riddell or mdke is it somthing that one of you could teach me to do
so i could take care of it?
03:56 jjesse or is it just faster to do it your self?
03:56 Riddell faster not to do it :)
03:56 mdke well given that the breezy package didn't use meinproc, it wouldn't
be very difficult to revert to that system
03:57 mdke the question is, how bad are the breezy kubuntu docs?
03:57 jjesse bad packaging wise?
03:57 mdke yeah, obviously not content wise
03:57 mdke are the stylesheets ok?
you'd need to edit the KDE stylesheet to generate separate .html
03:57 Riddell files then glue them all together with <FILENAME=foo> then compress
them
03:57 Riddell they're not valid HTML
03:58 mdke why not?
03:58 mdke how about we use the standard docbook-xsl stylesheets, and apply the
kde css, like we do for ubuntu-docs?
03:58 mdke would that help?
03:58 Riddell all the <FILENAME=foo> stuff is in there
03:59 Riddell no, the kde css is designed for the KDE xsl
04:00 mdke Riddell, well it's not like it's complex css. It is basically just a
few colours, I'm sure we can make any necessary tweaks
04:00 Riddell go ahead, as I say I've no time for it :
04:00 Riddell :)
04:00 mdke again, ubuntu-docs looks ok (imo)
04:00 mdke or if it doesn't, it will
04:00 jsgotangco go go go mdke !
04:01 mdke ?
04:01 mdke tell you what
04:01 mdke i'll try and knock something up, and we can see what it looks like
04:04 mdke Riddell, is meinproc actively developed? can we bitch at someone
about supporting xincludes?
04:05 Riddell i don't think it's been developed for some time, hopefully it'll go
away for kde 4
04:06 mdke hmm
04:06 mdke well the ubuntu-docs stuff is definitely valid (x)html, so I'll try
and knock something up that you're happy with
04:08 Riddell groovy
04:09 mdke anyone else still here?
04:09 jjesse i am
04:10 mdke any agenda items you'd like to discuss?
04:10 jsgotangco mmm
04:10 jjesse not really, i know a group of us are getting together sunday for a
desktop guide mtg
04:10 jsgotangco we're going to update kubuntu doc soon
04:10 mdke cool
04:10 jsgotangco jjesse, but we're not part of *that* group =)
04:11 mdke i'd definitely like to discuss the xml/html question. There has been
almost no discussion on the list about this :(
=== jsgotangco trolls
04:11 mdke proposal was
http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-December/004486.html
04:11 jsgotangco mdke, i really like the way you did for flight 2 packaging both
04:11 mdke with the exception of a thumbs up from mpt, I've seen no real
response
04:11 jsgotangco because of that we can easily compare what is better or not
04:12 mdke cool
04:12 mdke any views?
04:12 mdke I'm 100% in favour of html
04:12 jsgotangco translation issues?
04:12 mdke there are no translation issues
04:12 mdke obviously we'd continue to write in xml
04:12 mdke the translations would be fine
04:13 Madpilot so we'd continue to write in Docbook XML, but ship the converted
HTML?
04:13 mdke that is the proposal yeah
=== mdke thinks Madpilot would prefer not to write in docbook :)
=== guilhermee [n=x@200164038026.user.veloxzone.com.br] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
04:13 jsgotangco yes
04:14 Madpilot I'm getting slightly more used to it :) but HTML is so much easier &
less verbose
04:14 mhz jsgotangco: offered to make my ODP into docbook for edubuntu, so I'll
start docing finally
04:14 mhz thx jsgotangco
04:14 mdke Madpilot, but more inflexible :(
=== mhz wrote that regarding translations :)
04:14 mdke so any views on the proposal?
04:14 jjesse i would prefer to continue to write in docbook, i've leared enough of
it to continue using
04:15 jsgotangco mhz, i dunno about translation the current doc that'll mean rewriting
code
04:15 Madpilot mdke: yeah, I know why Docbook is in use - there are actual good
reasons
04:15 jsgotangco mhz, it would be ok if its a new doc though
04:15 mdke yep
04:15 jsgotangco but not an existing one
04:15 mhz jsgotangco: okis, no prob.
04:15 mhz even easier then
04:15 jsgotangco mhz, translating an existing work is much easier (go to rosetta)
04:15 mdke Madpilot, jsgotangco, jjesse, any views on the proposal
04:15 mdke ?
04:15 mhz indeed
04:16 jsgotangco i like the html css at the moment
04:16 mdke me too, and the speed
04:16 jsgotangco its basically moz rendering right?
04:16 mdke yep
04:16 jsgotangco even better
04:16 mdke yelp renders in html anyway
04:16 mdke but if we ship in xml, it has to do the conversion on-the-fly
04:16 mdke whereas if we ship html, we do it at the build
04:17 mdke hence the speed difference
as i don't understand the packaging/rendering process the greatest
04:17 jjesse yet, need to learn it, as long as i keep editing the docs in docbook
format it shouldn't matter to me what we render in
04:17 jjesse and i have never looked at the ubuntu-docs in gnome, haven't used
ubuntu so i can't comment on how yelp loos
04:17 mdke fair enough
04:17 jsgotangco yeah but you have to admit, yelp has improved on speed, but still not
good enough
04:18 mdke yelp is fairly quick at displaying html, just slow with xml,
understadably
04:18 Madpilot any idea when Yelp is going to get search functions?
04:18 mdke Madpilot, no, but it doesn't make a difference to this issue, because
yelp will be the help viewer, regardless of what we decide
04:18 jsgotangco i believe upstream already has it
04:19 jsgotangco Madpilot, oh wait sorry, i meant Printing support
04:19 jsgotangco RAD
04:19 mdke o.o
04:20 mdke as jjesse said the other day, printing support is the most basic
function ever
04:20 mdke it really should have had that ages ago ;)
mdke: that's the last major piece of functionality missing from Yelp,
04:20 Madpilot so I was just wondering - as for HTML/XML, shipping HTML = faster
rendering, which is rarely a bad thing...
04:20 jjesse and search
04:20 jsgotangco khelpcenter had that years ago
04:21 mdke Madpilot, yeah, i don't really see any advantage in shipping xml
04:21 jsgotangco its l337!
04:22 mdke also, the serverguide really has to be in html
04:22 mdke because many servers won't have an xml viewer
04:22 jjesse or viewable in text? if i don't have a gui installed :)
04:22 jsgotangco bah! we only need vi!
04:22 jjesse emacs
04:22 mdke jjesse, yeah that's what I mean, html is viewable easily from the
command line, xml isn't
04:23 mdke any more views on this item?
04:23 jjesse nope
04:23 jsgotangco bundle qemacs
04:23 jsgotangco lol
04:23 jjesse nano
04:24 jsgotangco jjesse, qemacs renders docbook :P
04:24 jjesse ah
04:24 mdke some more agenda items?
04:24 mdke Cleaning unnecessary/unmaintained documents from svn repository
(Bhuvan)
04:24 mdke ?
04:24 jjesse i think i took care of the kubuntu docs
04:24 jsgotangco don't clean up too much yet :)
04:24 mdke i have no objection to removing documents which are unmaintained and
are no further use
04:25 mdke jsgotangco, what about edubuntu, what shall we do with that?
04:25 jsgotangco stay it for a while, i'm observing current work in bzr
04:25 jsgotangco as well my upstream gnome doc
04:25 jsgotangco promised mvo will update it next week
04:25 jsgotangco before we move it to his rep
04:25 mdke can't that be hosted in gnome cvs?
04:26 jsgotangco because g-a-i will have a massive change
04:26 jsgotangco sure
04:26 jsgotangco let me piggyback for a week more =)
04:26 mdke ok we'll leave ubuntu/upstream/gai
04:26 mdke what about update-manager?
04:26 jsgotangco not so sure if that is being updated
04:26 mdke presumably this is upstream already?
04:26 jsgotangco it was sean's doc
04:26 jsgotangco can't say
04:26 jsgotangco i could check
04:27 mdke that would be good
04:27 jsgotangco they don't eat that much space anyways
04:27 mdke true
04:27 jsgotangco until i verify i'll take responsibiility for the two
04:27 mdke ok
04:27 mdke i don't think saving space in there is a high priority
04:27 jsgotangco nahh
04:27 mdke daniel recently wrote a script to reduce the size of the source
tarball by excluding anything that isn't used
04:28 mdke that has cut it down from 30 to 10MB
04:28 jsgotangco wow
04:28 jsgotangco he can really conjure voodoo huh
04:28 mdke :)
04:28 mdke jsgotangco, what about your accessibility agenda item?
04:32 jsgotangco well i haven't started that much on it yet but we decided to go wiki
first
04:32 jsgotangco once we clean it up, the a11y team can decide if its going in
04:32 mdke ok
04:32 mdke that was easy
04:32 jsgotangco so far we're doing good on a11y
04:32 mdke good
04:33 mdke ok as for the 2 remaining items
04:33 mdke the updating the status reports, I think just need to be worked on,
we don't need to discuss it, unless anyone wants to
04:33 mdke the sharing of prefaces, we can talk about on sunday IMO
04:34 mdke since it is very much a faqguide issue
04:34 jsgotangco whats on sunday?
04:34 mdke faqguide/desktopguide
04:34 mdke jsgotangco, a meeting about the desktopguide
04:34 jsgotangco oh
=== jsgotangco havent been attentive to emails lately
04:34 mdke too busy :)
04:34 jsgotangco incredibly
=== jsgotangco has a contract at the moment with IOSN
04:35 mdke oh
04:35 mdke how about another agenda item
04:35 mdke commit access for Madpilot?
04:35 mdke gets the +1 from me
04:35 jsgotangco me too
04:35 jsgotangco mdke, www.iosn.net
04:35 Madpilot I'm not a Member yet - planning on that for Jan.
04:36 mdke oh god this bloody member rule
04:36 jsgotangco Madpilot, you're a shoo-in
04:36 jsgotangco mdke, =)
04:36 mdke pah
04:36 mdke i miss ONE meeting, and you guys make this stupid rule ;)
04:36 jsgotangco bah we had good quorum and a majority of devs
=== mdke shakes head sadly
the exact time still hasn't been annoucned for the the Dec. 20th CC
04:37 Madpilot meeting - if it's another 1400Z meeting, I can make that and put my
name down beforehand
04:38 mdke gah
04:38 Madpilot if it's going to be 2200Z, I'll be at work, I'm afraid...
04:38 mdke don't they do them at 2000?
04:38 jsgotangco yikes!
04:39 mdke it is much more difficult for doc team contributors to get membership
without having commit access first :(
04:39 mdke Madpilot is going to have to wait until february or so before we can
add him...
04:39 jsgotangco jdub's wife is also getting active in iosn
04:40 Madpilot mdke: I'll just keep spamming the list with patches until then - and
complaining about XML :P
04:40 mdke Madpilot, ok, we'll keep applying em
04:40 mdke meeting adjourned?
04:41 jsgotangco sure
04:41 jsgotangco we got good mileage really
04:41 mdke okMeetingLogs/DocTeam_2005-12-16 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:17:46 by localhost)