{{{ 10:02 LaserJock ok, who all is here for the Doc Team meeting? 10:04 manicka I'm here 10:05 LaserJock hmm, doesn't look promising 10:05 manicka no 10:06 robotgeek i'm here too === Hirion [n=hirion@draugr.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] 10:10 LaserJock hmm, well if naaman isn't here... 10:10 manicka there's not much to talk about... 10:14 LaserJock hmm, well does anybody have suggestions for the next meeting? === bustacap [n=bustacap@ubuntu/member/bustacap] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:16 bustacap hello all, is the doc meeting on now? 10:16 manicka hi 10:16 bustacap oh poo where is mdke?? 10:16 robotgeek bustacap: naaman isn't here 10:16 manicka lol 10:16 bustacap haha naaman is bustacap :D 10:17 robotgeek bustacap: oh, my bad. lol 10:17 bustacap hehe === robotgeek smacks himself 10:17 LaserJock hmm, ok so not many people here then I just woke up underneath my coffee table in the lounge room 10:18 bustacap (did not know how I got there) at 7am (2100 UTC) thinking "oh shit, it's the Doc Team meeting" === jjesse [n=jjesse@mail.ftpb.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:18 jjesse not around for much longer 10:18 bustacap well, if there isn't any senior members in attendance - I will convene it... === bustacap looks at the MeetingAgenda 10:19 bustacap I am still in my work clothes from yesterday (I had a decent drinking session straight after work ;) ) 10:20 bustacap OK onto the meeting.. 10:20 LaserJock well, I think that we might want to try a bit harder to get some agenda items for next time 10:20 bustacap we will just put issues to the next meeting without the people here to represent them 10:20 bustacap but onto the first one.. 10:21 bustacap using common files in the DocBook documents 10:21 bustacap does anyone else (other than mdke) have something to bring up about this.. 10:21 LaserJock I think a far amount of docs are using the common preface 10:22 bustacap I think this issue has been brought up before at a previous meeting.. 10:22 robotgeek the Kubuntu docs use the common kde entities mostly 10:22 manicka there's a fair maount on commonality between the ubuntu and kubuntu dg's 10:22 bustacap is this the same as the ubuntu .xml files? 10:23 robotgeek manicka: hmm, i havent seen many common ones, to be honest 10:23 bustacap manicka, I think mdke is after is a common look and feel to all of the ubuntu documentation.. 10:23 manicka ah, ok 10:25 robotgeek well, i don't know if we can discuss this without mdke being here 10:25 bustacap well to add my two cents - perhaps the preface might be a little different in the guides 10:26 bustacap but - the getting-help.xml should be exactly the same 10:26 bustacap it should point to the same web-help resources.. 10:26 LaserJock what mdke and I were thinking about is about having a common preface 10:26 LaserJock and perhaps other common elements 10:26 robotgeek bustacap: for examsple the, mailing lists are different 10:26 bustacap for the getting help?? 10:27 robotgeek bustacap: yes, ubuntu-users and kubuntu-users 10:27 bustacap well I think that the getting-help should encompass all versions of ubuntu 10:27 jjesse and the different channels 10:27 bustacap it should say in the USG - for help with Ubuntu -> go here; for help with Kubuntu -> go here.. 10:28 jjesse i don't think there is enough commonality to get common files 10:28 robotgeek jjesse: +1 10:28 bustacap it is documented in the USG to convert over to Kubuntu in the USG 10:28 jjesse USG == Ubuntu Server Guide? 10:28 robotgeek bustacap: then the KDG takes over :) 10:28 bustacap so there should be help resources on where to go as well.. 10:29 bustacap ok - fair call.. 10:29 robotgeek bustacap: it's Ubuntu Desktop Guide, the "starter" term is removed now 10:29 bustacap ooh sorry ;) 10:29 bustacap I am out of the loop :) 10:29 jjesse to make a distinction between server guide nad desktop guide 10:29 bustacap yeah.. 10:29 robotgeek bustacap: i was too, until yesterday :) 10:30 LaserJock ok, but anyway I think the goal was to think about commonality so we can just change things once 10:30 robotgeek LaserJock: i believe the global entities are in one file 10:31 LaserJock right, but we talked about a common preface for example 10:31 bustacap oh, but it is a fair call to say that it is not worth doing.. 10:31 bustacap it is a good idea in principle, but I say not to worry about it.. 10:31 bustacap moving on - next item.. 10:31 LaserJock but I think that the item is already implemented quite a bit so it might not be worth discussing in length 10:32 robotgeek LaserJock: yeah, i guess that is the way it is 10:32 robotgeek i copied KDG's preface from UDG 10:32 bustacap WikiCleanupProposal 10:32 bustacap manicka are you in on this? i would argue for common files where they make sense... for 10:32 jjesse example on the kubuntu side all the docs should use the same preface if they have a preface 10:32 LaserJock jjesse: exactly 10:33 bustacap for sure jjesse 10:33 LaserJock jjesse: that was the point 10:33 jjesse sorry working so only paying half attention 10:33 manicka I'm prepared to help where i can 10:33 bustacap sure.. 10:33 robotgeek jjesse: hmm, it's pretty easy to implement, i guess 10:33 bustacap it should already be implemented for same distro docs.. 10:34 LaserJock bustacap: I don't know that it is exactly though 10:34 bustacap LaserJock, I don't think it would be too much effort to correct 10:35 robotgeek bustacap: it's just changing an entity for me, i'm sure it's the same for the rest too 10:35 LaserJock right, but people need to be aware of it and do it ;-) we can say that the preface.xml and getting-help.xml aren't 10:35 bustacap compatible with each other atm and it isn't a smart move to make them compatible in the future either.. 10:36 robotgeek bustacap: preface.xml is document neutral, getting-help.xml is not 10:36 LaserJock ? 10:36 bustacap there isn't too much to be gained by making them the same document.. 10:36 bustacap well preface.xml could contain more distro-specific information.. 10:36 robotgeek it would make sense for a common preface.xml across both ubuntu and kubuntu 10:37 bustacap iirc, preface.xml in the UDG talks about the work put in by the kubuntu team to make an alternative to ubuntu 10:37 robotgeek bustacap: preface just says how the document is formatted and how to interpret it. 10:37 LaserJock the preface contents are just a " these are the conventions, etc. used in the doc" and since those should be consistent... 10:37 bustacap oh ok.. 10:38 bustacap well that could be the same then.. 10:38 robotgeek and getting help could be common across all ubuntu documents, and all kubuntu docs it wasn't a huge deal it was just where we can have common 10:38 LaserJock items we should try to, so that we have consistency and eliminate redundancy 10:39 robotgeek true, it's only a small change to make, let's make it and keep moving :) 10:39 bustacap well include both Kubuntu and Ubuntu sources of help in both then.. 10:39 bustacap yeah.. 10:39 bustacap it will also create more awareness of Kubuntu when people are looking for help in the UDG as well.. 10:40 LaserJock bustacap: the current common preface is distro neutral 10:40 bustacap ok - well make that common across all distros.. 10:40 robotgeek LaserJock: maybe not 10:41 robotgeek i have Konsole instead of gnome-terminal 10:41 bustacap in preface?? you guys, it is fine. I don't know what you guys are looking 10:41 LaserJock at but the common preface doesn't have anything distro specific that I know of 10:41 robotgeek To start a Terminal session, select: Konsole from the desktop menu system. 10:41 robotgeek maybe i should just rephrase that, lol 10:41 bustacap I wouldn't imagine that would be in preface.xml?? 10:42 robotgeek that is in preface 10:42 LaserJock no it isn't 10:42 bustacap why would command-line operations be in a Preface?? 10:42 LaserJock robotgeek: look at the Ubuntu Packaging Guide preface 10:42 robotgeek okay, atlease in the kdg preface :) http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/desktopguide-web/C/preface.html 10:43 LaserJock robotgeek: that is because it isn't using the common preface! 10:43 robotgeek okay, i think need to change it then 10:43 robotgeek :) 10:43 bustacap well that line could be easily stripped then.. 10:43 bustacap it is unnecessary to tell a user how to open a shell from the Conventions section.. 10:43 LaserJock arrghhh, guys, there is a common preface.xml that you can be using that is distro neutral 10:44 LaserJock you shouldn't have a preface.xml file in your doc directory 10:44 robotgeek okay, fine. will make the change 10:45 bustacap I think this is issue is now pretty much open-and-shut -> move on to making both files common across all documentation 10:45 LaserJock do you guys see it? in common/C/ 10:45 robotgeek LaserJock: i see it, and will make the change now 10:46 bustacap alright - moving on to the next item.. 10:46 bustacap WikiCleanupProposal 10:47 bustacap at the moment the WCP has been moving along quite well 10:48 bustacap I might move through a couple of points in it and where it is at.. 10:48 manicka feedback on the list has been very productive 10:48 bustacap the Wiki Move.. there may need to be a day of the Wiki Team making sure that 10:50 bustacap all of the important docs on the Wiki are categorised in the Category''Documentation before the wiki move 10:50 bustacap other than that - I cannot see any problems with the impending wiki move (whenever that happens) 10:50 bustacap any information about the wiki move? 10:51 bustacap there has been a spec put forward about it.. 10:52 manicka I believe it was discussed at the last cc, but mdke wasn't there to clarify the issues 10:52 bustacap yeah, that's why he is going down the spec route rather than discussing it at CC meetings.. 10:52 manicka discussion went round in circles a bit 10:52 bustacap it might even be in Launchpad 10:53 bustacap ok, moving onto Restructuring of the Wiki 10:53 bustacap bit of a shame mdke isn't here 10:53 bustacap but manicka you seem to be happy with mdke's proposal for the changes to UserDocumentation?? 10:54 manicka I like the concise nature of his suggestions 10:54 bustacap yeah, it is a good cleanup 10:54 manicka the frontpage needs to be as simple as possible 10:55 bustacap I can see where he is coming from with his objections to my "Misc" series of pages === hybrid [n=hybrid@dpc6745217221.direcpc.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:55 manicka yes 10:55 bustacap albeit a temporary solution to the problems whilst UserDocBeta was being built 10:56 manicka the problem I see is making it happen, there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in the wiki 10:56 bustacap yeah, I am getting that feeling as well 10:57 bustacap I find that hard to understand given the usefulness of the Wiki 10:57 manicka such a large restructure needs a concerted effort 10:57 robotgeek true 10:57 manicka a few people can't pull it off on their own from a sysadmin perspective - we are in the "google" age of 10:58 bustacap looking for assistance with sysadmin tasks - the Ubuntu Wiki fits right in with looking for doco on the net === terrex [n=capitant@84-122-65-159.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:58 manicka agreed === robotgeek is still trying to understand the issues :( 10:58 bustacap for sure manicka, but I think a quick restructure and then some slow and steady work by a few can improve it greatly 10:59 manicka yes if there isn't enough support by the general Doc-Team, well 10:59 bustacap yourself and I can take it slowly as long as it is supported (in ideals) by the Doc-Team === terrex [n=capitant@84-122-65-159.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 11:00 bustacap I don't want to be working on a project that the majority of the Doc-Team turn there noses up at.. 11:00 manicka yes, agreed 11:00 bustacap that's why I have been trying to engage some dialog about the issue.. 11:00 manicka so our first gioal must be approval of the idea 11:00 manicka the beta I mean === terrex [n=capitant@84-122-65-159.onocable.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting robotgeek, look at 11:00 bustacap https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiCleanupProposal for a good introduction to the matter 11:00 robotgeek bustacap: reading it now 11:01 bustacap well I think that the beta may be dead given that mdke has gone and suggested his model 11:01 bustacap the whole subindexing - however - is not dead 11:01 manicka I was thinking of the long term model yeah, see my initial opposition to mdke's model was that if 11:02 bustacap we went to his model - we could not go back to the beta model if everything was ready in the background.. 11:03 manicka there's no point putting a lot of effort into a background model if it won't fly in the long run 11:03 bustacap with his model - a new beta doesn't need to be drafted === Burgwork [n=corey@d66-183-174-128.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting I think the main thing that has come out of my proposals is 11:04 bustacap that there is a need for some general sub-index pages across all subject areas and whatever the main page model is - the sub-indexes will 11:05 bustacap greatly help people find doco quicker and give them a really good understanding of what Ubuntu has to offer 11:05 robotgeek bustacap: +1 11:05 bustacap there needs to be more higher-level simple doco about Ubuntu and the apps it has 11:05 manicka yes and this would assist with the other goal of attracting forum people to contribute 11:06 bustacap absolutely 11:06 robotgeek bustacap: for example like the KQuickguide? 11:06 manicka I'd just like to see something happen manicka, once a conclusion has been reached about the main 11:06 bustacap page model - I will be able to start drafting a recruitment drive for people from the forums 11:07 bustacap manicka, well once I have a chat with mdke - I will continue driving the issue 11:07 manicka ok the problem was that I was not getting any feedback from the Doc-Team about the work and like have said - it seems that 11:08 bustacap nobody cares about cleaning up the wiki - or like I said - nobody is saying anything because that don't agree about what I have proposed 11:08 manicka it's difficult to know either way 11:08 robotgeek bustacap: from me, i just have been too busy with other stuff 11:09 manicka I look at it this way. If you want help with the task I'll pitch in, but I'm really tired of all the background stuff 11:09 manicka the udsf issues have worn me out somewhat robotgeek, it is just not about a short guide - it's about opening people's minds up to all of the possiblities of Ubuntu apps when they are searching for a specific issue - if 11:11 bustacap somebody is searching for playing MP3s - the may browse on of the sub-index pages (MultimediaApplications is a good example) and discover all of the different MP3 players along with the video players etc... basically look for help in one subject area and be enli 11:11 bustacap ghtened in so many more :) 11:11 bustacap manicka, that is a fair call, I don't think we need to visit there.. 11:11 manicka no, agreed 11:12 robotgeek bustacap: hmm, i like idea of subpages, Todd has been working on WifiDocs converted the wireless pages that ways and as far as the whole joint meeting went - I think there is 11:12 bustacap a really positive attitude from the Ubuntu Forums to wholly support the Wiki once there is a suitable framework there.. 11:13 bustacap yeah, I have liked Todd's work on getting something up and going.. 11:13 manicka yes, a suitable framework is the key... basically manicka, we need at least another 2-3 people 11:13 bustacap involved in the project with the same committment as you and I to really get this off the ground.. and as far as I look at the whole doc situation - I think the 11:14 bustacap UDG and KDG are in there final stages of being closed off for Dapper and the members of the Doc-Team should have some time to contribute to fixing up the Wiki 11:14 manicka hmm, that may be difficult. Most of the good people on the forums are working on 'other' projects 11:15 manicka but you never know 11:15 bustacap yeah, I know that - but I am after 2-3 extras from the Doc-Team initially 11:15 robotgeek i may have time, but i can't commit right now 11:15 manicka so we may see some activity in a few weeks 11:15 robotgeek commit time, i mean 11:16 robotgeek btw, i have some input to provide about our first agenda item robotgeek, but by commit - I don't mean spending 2 hours 11:16 bustacap every night on it - I just mean that you agree with the proposals put forward and I include you in any high level emails/discussions that may arise over the project.. 11:17 bustacap robotgeek, I might wrap up the current agenda item anyway and close off the meeting 11:17 robotgeek bustacap: i'll go thru the whole issue over the weekend and get in touch with you? 11:17 bustacap sure, drop me an email (check private message) basically, we could do with an extra 2-3 people committed to 11:18 bustacap this project but either way - mdke's proposal looks good and I will slowly change the beta to suit 11:19 manicka ok 11:19 bustacap also, I will have a chat with mdke about his proposal and move it across to UserDocumentationDraft 11:19 manicka great 11:19 bustacap once approved at UserDocumentationDraft - it will replace the current UserDocumentation and! I will then attempt to take over the WikiTeam docs as 11:20 bustacap far as cleanup proposals, todo pages, etc to get the ball rolling.. 11:21 manicka sounds like a plan 11:21 bustacap excellent 11:21 robotgeek :) 11:21 bustacap well I think that concludes today's meeting.. 11:21 robotgeek holdon === bustacap bangs a gavel :D 11:22 bustacap sorry robotgeek, bring up your issue, I am getting a drink of water and heading to bed - big night last night LaserJock: the preface.xml in KDG doesn't have all xml 11:22 robotgeek headers . Riddell removed them for something related to xincludes 11:23 bustacap night/morning all.. 11:23 robotgeek bustacap: sure, later 11:23 robotgeek anyways, i could discuss this later. only to tell that i won't be making a change right now 11:23 robotgeek alrite, later all }}}