Meeting started by AlanBell at 10:59:20 UTC. The full logs are available at http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-14-10.59.log.txt .

Meeting summary

• welcome and introductions from the new IRC Council

  • announcement of the chair of the IRCC (AlanBell, 11:07:55)

  • the empty seat (AlanBell, 11:09:38)

• Welcoming #lubuntu

LINK: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2012/01/06/lubuntu-call-for-operators/ (AlanBell, 11:15:23)

• Review last meetings action items

  • topyli to finally mail council about the operator recruitment process (AlanBell, 11:35:09)

  • topyli to ask if eir can be tweaked to ignore floodbots (AlanBell, 11:37:52)

• Open items in the IRCC tracker
• Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council

  • bug 892501 Floodbots - need a re-write to be under ubuntu operator team control - ikonia (AlanBell, 11:46:46)

LINK: https://launchpad.net/floodbot (AlanBell, 11:48:21)

• bug 892500 eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu -ikonia (AlanBell, 11:51:32)

LINK: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots?field.searchtext=[eir] (AlanBell, 11:52:00)

ACTION: ircc to move eir control channel to -ops-monitor if this will preserve existing ban timeouts (AlanBell, 12:20:47)

• bug 912783 IRC votes and surveys go to the ubuntu members which excludes some operators - LJL (AlanBell, 12:22:17)

• bug 884671 Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly - jussi (AlanBell, 12:27:19)

• bug 913541 there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group - AlanBell (AlanBell, 12:43:40)

• bug 887544 No measurable data on ban resolving process in #ubuntu-ops - jussi (AlanBell, 12:44:56)

• bug 916247 devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention - AlanBell (AlanBell, 12:48:07)

• bug 788503 IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric - tsimpson (AlanBell, 12:49:59)

• Definition of where official announcements from the IRCC will be made for those with a need for no discussion but announcements - jussi
• Any Other Business

LINK: https://bugs.launchpad.net/irclog2html/+bug/914553 (funkyHat, 12:57:42)

Meeting ended at 13:02:32 UTC.

Votes

Action items

• ircc to move eir control channel to -ops-monitor if this will preserve existing ban timeouts

People present (lines said)

• AlanBell (187)

• LjL (66)
• Pici (55)
• topyli (49)
• oCean (28)
• Myrtti (25)
• ikonia (24)
• funkyHat (23)
• ubottu (11)
• Unit193 (6)
• bkerensa (6)
• meetingology (4)
• ts2 (2)

Full Log

• 10:59:20 <AlanBell> #startmeeting IRCC team meeting

  10:59:20 <meetingology> Meeting started Sat Jan 14 10:59:20 2012 UTC. The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.

  10:59:20 <meetingology>

  10:59:20 <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired

  10:59:31 <AlanBell> hi all, who is here for the meeting o/

  10:59:42 <funkyHat> ô/

  10:59:42 <Myrtti> o/

  10:59:43 <oCean> o/ 10:59:45 * Pici waves

  11:00:19 <bkerensa> 0/

  11:01:36 <AlanBell> Hello and welcome to the first team meeting of the new IRC Council

  11:01:47 <Pici> woo

  11:01:58 <AlanBell> I would like to start the meeting by thanking our predecessors for all that they have done over the past few years, and in particular thanking them for their assistance during the handover

  11:02:03 <Unit193> ]o

  11:02:16 <AlanBell> jussi, elky, topyli, tsimpson, nhandler thanks very much

  11:02:20 <LjL>

  11:02:27 <AlanBell> and special congratulations jussi on the new baby \o/ \o/

  11:02:35 <LjL> \o/

  11:02:39 <bkerensa> \o/

  11:02:46 <Pici>

  11:02:51 <AlanBell> #topic welcome and introductions from the new IRC Council

  11:03:54 <AlanBell> topyli will be along in a sec, but the new council is Pici topyli funkyHat and myself

  11:04:18 <AlanBell> Pici: funkyHat: want to say who you are?

  11:04:30 <Pici> I think you all know me by now.

  11:04:47 <Pici> Or at least, I hope so

  11:04:52 <AlanBell>

  11:05:02 <AlanBell> I am the leader of the Ubuntu-UK loco team, and I do a bit for the Accessibility team

  11:05:35 <AlanBell> I am not an op in the core channels so I have been running about learning stuff over the last couple of weeks

  11:05:35 <Pici> Anyway, feel free to give me a pm at any time if you want to take about anything. I'm always available.

  11:05:50 <funkyHat> Hi, I'm Matt Wheeler. I've been an operator in #ubuntu-offtopic for quite a while now, and I'm also slowly working on my packaging skills with the intention of joining the MOTU team, but university is taking first priority at the moment

  11:06:04 <AlanBell> topyli: hi topyli, who are you?

  11:06:22 <ts2> aren't there supposed to be 5 members (and Hello!)

  11:06:30 <funkyHat> I'm pretty much always idling on here too, so feel free to pm me as well. I have nice hats ❡⢁)

  11:06:41 <LjL> ts2: i think not enough applied

  11:06:41 <AlanBell> ts2: yes, will get to that in a sec

  11:06:52 <ts2> ok

  11:06:58 <Myrtti> ts2: we couldn't enough blood from the fourth one to make them weak enough to apply

  11:07:02 <AlanBell> here is the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda

  11:07:05 <Myrtti> s/fourth/fifth/

  11:07:08 <topyli> i'm juha siltala. i'm an op in #ubuntu-offtopic and a couple of loco channels (i think still) i used to be in the previous council

  11:07:55 <AlanBell> #subtopic announcement of the chair of the IRCC

  11:08:00 <Pici> Oh, I guess I should state my name for the record like everyone else. Benjamin Rubin, op in lots of channels, was on the council before the last, etc.

  11:08:00 <topyli> i'm pretty easy to reach on irc, so go ahead and bother me

  11:08:16 <AlanBell> I lost the game of rock-paper-scissors and as a forfeit I ended up as chair of the IRCC

  11:08:23 <AlanBell> There is no particular reason why we have to have one chair throughout the term of this council, so we might shuffle things about at some stage

  11:08:26 <AlanBell> but right now I am happy to be the

  11:08:30 <AlanBell> chair

  11:08:44 <bkerensa> \o/

  11:08:50 <topyli> great!

  11:08:54 <AlanBell> !return | AlanBell

  11:08:54 <ubottu> AlanBell, please see my private message

  11:09:05 <oCean> haha

  11:09:07 <topyli> eh

  11:09:12 <topyli> heh even!

  11:09:23 <funkyHat> ⢁) AlanChair

  11:09:38 <AlanBell> #subtopic the empty seat

  11:09:50 <AlanBell> As you may have gathered, the IRCC should be 5 people and we have 4.

  11:10:08 <AlanBell> We will leave the seat empty for the time being, our colleagues from the Community Council will be assisting us in the short term

  11:10:28 <AlanBell> we hope to hold an election to fill the remaining seat during the Q cycle.

  11:10:49 <AlanBell> That post would be set to expire at the same time as the current council so it would be a slightly shorter term than normal

  11:11:31 <AlanBell> any comments on that plan?

  11:11:34 <LjL> for the record, i don't see it as a very pressing matter

  11:12:04 <oCean> Agreed, I think the way AlanBell describes is just fine

  11:12:26 <topyli> theoretically it can lead to tricky votes though, but that's why we have a chairman

  11:13:16 <AlanBell> yeah, I am not really anticipating a deadlock on anything, but if we do I would certainly want the opinion of our CC advisors before using the casting vote

  11:13:29 <Pici> Agreed.

  11:13:34 <topyli> yes

  11:14:32 <AlanBell> ok, slight change to the agenda has been requested and I am bumping the #lubuntu item up to the top to allow people to get away

  11:14:40 <AlanBell> #topic Welcoming #lubuntu

  11:14:50 <bkerensa>

  11:14:51 <Pici> Hi #lubuntu!

  11:15:05 <AlanBell> we have put out the call for ops for the #lubuntu channel which is great

  11:15:17 <Myrtti> finally :-P

  11:15:23 <AlanBell> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2012/01/06/lubuntu-call-for-operators/

  11:15:55 <topyli> i think the nomination period ends right about now, wo we should have ops soon

  11:16:03 <AlanBell> looks like 12 people found their way through the application process to hit the join button https://launchpad.net/~irc-lubuntu-ops/+members

  11:16:10 <Unit193> Oh, right. Hello

  11:16:35 <Myrtti> AlanBell: btw jussi is still listed as an admin of that?

  11:16:36 <AlanBell> after the meeting we will mail the IRC discussion list with the list of names and links to wiki pages and invite comments from the existing ops

  11:17:02 <AlanBell> Myrtti: refresh the page

  11:17:11 <Myrtti> good good

  11:17:13 <Pici> Of course people are free to make commentary to the IRCC directly if they feel it more appropriate.

  11:17:20 <Myrtti> I had been wondering about that fr a week or so now

  11:17:40 <AlanBell> yes, please email us directly or pop into #ubuntu-irc-council

  11:18:55 <AlanBell> I think we should go through and make our decisions some point this week

  11:19:18 <Myrtti> I would like to make a request

  11:19:22 <Pici> Sure.

  11:20:17 <Myrtti> would the IRC council consider the possibility of allowing the applicants to see the comments others have left after the nominations, anonymised if needed, if they so request?

  11:20:53 <Myrtti> I'd personally benefit from hearing what others think I may need to improve on

  11:21:02 <bkerensa> +1

  11:21:04 * AlanBell ponders

  11:21:20 <Myrtti> I don't need a reply to that now, just tossed it out there

  11:21:41 <Unit193> That'd help, if I knew them at all they could PM me (best to do it when mi"M more awake)

  11:22:06 <topyli> if we decide to do so, we should mention this when requesting comments

  11:22:15 <LjL> topyli: yes

  11:22:19 <Pici> Constructive critisicm is good, I don't see any obvious downsides at the moment.

  11:22:24 <Pici> topyli: and that

  11:22:25 <AlanBell> ok, people are encouraged to leave comments and testimonials on wiki pages, or pass private comments to the council - which I think would not be expected to be passed on, however when we accept / decline people we can pass feedback to them

  11:22:47 <AlanBell> I think if someone is being declined we should explain why

  11:23:04 <Myrtti> the reason I'm asking this is that when I applied for -server ops I got nothing on the wiki page

  11:23:28 <Unit193> I'd even like to know what I can work on if I am accepted

  11:23:32 <Pici> Agreed. I think the decline comments have either been very vague or non-existant as of late.

  11:23:44 <AlanBell> Myrtti: you are still in the pending queue for server ops

  11:23:59 <Myrtti> AlanBell: possibly, I haven't checked

  11:24:04 <AlanBell> I have

  11:24:05 <Pici> Myrtti: We're aware that the current queues are something that we need to work.

  11:24:06 <topyli> we could tidy up the comments even to the point of just listing bullet points or something

  11:25:02 <AlanBell> ok, so this week we will be accepting a bunch of operators into the induction period

  11:25:04 <Myrtti> anyway, as an active ops on #ubuntu I'm used to getting negative, nonconstructive criticism all the time, but it's the constructive I've not had for years

  11:25:19 <topyli> heh

  11:25:35 <AlanBell> and we want to be a bit more organised about induction this time

  11:26:16 <AlanBell> we will be assigning mentors as we have done in the past, but we are also going to organise a number of training sessions in -classroom

  11:26:31 <AlanBell> stuff like how to set bans, extbans, IPV6 bans etc

  11:26:37 <AlanBell> how to mediate with problem users

  11:26:44 <LjL> good idea

  11:26:48 <AlanBell> how the bots work

  11:26:57 <oCean> +1

  11:27:10 <AlanBell> even bots not currently used in #lubuntu, when they have 1600 idlers they might well want floodbots

  11:27:12 <Myrtti> sounds like a good idea even for current ops

  11:27:21 <Myrtti> of other channels

  11:27:29 <Pici> Aye

  11:27:32 <AlanBell> yes, they would be open to all

  11:27:52 <topyli> lecturers are obviously most welcome

  11:28:26 <LjL> i'd like to nominate myself for that, will have a talk with you about it latert

  11:28:31 <Myrtti> call for lecturers in the mailing list?

  11:28:45 <Myrtti> or is this it :-P?

  11:28:51 <AlanBell> yeah, but we need to have a chat about the topics to cover in a bit more detail

  11:29:24 <Myrtti> I'll volunteer for Irssi basics if such is deemed as interesting to people

  11:29:32 <AlanBell> great

  11:29:50 <AlanBell> so yes we will do a call for instructors, perhaps with some specific topics we want to include

  11:30:13 <AlanBell> and some people might be voluntold

  11:30:23 <Pici> Hopefully not though

  11:30:26 <Unit193> Yeah, that'd be interesetngi to attend as long as wit was a good time (irssi one)

  11:30:40 <AlanBell> Pici: it is an akgranerism I just wanted to use

  11:30:45 <Pici> AlanBell:

  11:32:06 <Myrtti> perhaps a Google poll /similar would be good to have to get a feeling on what might be wanted in addition to the basics

  11:32:30 <LjL> why Google? we have Launchpad, and it provides such fines polls!

  11:32:33 <AlanBell> so in summary, please comment on the applicants to help us decide (and decide who needs which mentor), the new ops will be invited into -ops (where they will be advised to be slient in the short term) and -ops-team and have bantracker access

  11:32:57 <AlanBell> and we will be doing a structured training course

  11:33:16 <AlanBell> looking at dates, it seems the induction will basically run to the Precise launch date which is nice

  11:33:47 <AlanBell> any more to say on the topic of welcoming #lubuntu and the new ops?

  11:34:06 <funkyHat> I'll just say welcome as well ■▎⢁)

  11:34:54 <AlanBell> ok, thanks Unit193, feel free to stick around or wander off o/

  11:35:02 <AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items

  11:35:09 <AlanBell> #progress topyli to finally mail council about the operator recruitment process

  11:35:15 <Unit193> Right, thanks AlanBell! I'll read the rest when I wake up

  11:35:31 <AlanBell> well we have been kind of discussing this one a bit

  11:35:56 <topyli> i haven't mailed the council, so this is not done

  11:36:31 <AlanBell> we have a bug for this topic, I would be quite happy to just have comments on that

  11:36:33 <Pici> We have been looking at metrics from the last few rounds of recruitment drives

  11:37:22 <AlanBell> I think we should park this action, and come back to it when we get to reviewing bug 884671 in a minute

  11:37:23 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 884671 in ubuntu-community "Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/884671

  11:37:52 <AlanBell> #progress topyli to ask if eir can be tweaked to ignore floodbots

  11:37:59 <AlanBell> heh, you did this

  11:38:17 <topyli> done! yeah!

  11:38:28 <Myrtti> booyah

  11:38:40 <AlanBell> the response was unenthusiastic

  11:38:51 <Pici> Not surprising imo.

  11:38:55 <topyli> it was. but patches are welcome

  11:39:18 <AlanBell> I never understood this request tbh, eir dealing with floodbot bans is a good thing right?

  11:39:28 <AlanBell> just eir shouldn't ban the floodbots

  11:39:31 <LjL> AlanBell: eir actually nags the floodbots though

  11:39:42 <topyli> LjL: you also had a plan B of some sort, making the floodbots ignore eir

  11:39:55 <LjL> yeah. i just wonder one thing

  11:40:08 <LjL> is it actually helpful for eir to spell out each mute that the floodbots do?

  11:40:17 <LjL> i think it does, and found it quite annoying in -ops-team

  11:40:29 <funkyHat> Yes I was going to say, the other issue is how much eir is flooding -ops-team

  11:40:55 <AlanBell> ok, lets move on from this action which was done, and come back to eir/floodbots in a sec with the bugs

  11:41:06 <AlanBell> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker

  11:41:30 <AlanBell> we have closed an action which was a duplicate of the lauchpad bug about eir

  11:41:40 <AlanBell> there was an old appeals process, did that get closed topyli?

  11:42:49 <topyli> it sort of did. the user is not convinced, but i don't think we can improve our decision to please them even more

  11:43:11 <AlanBell> ok, and their ban has been resolved anyway

  11:43:43 <topyli> it is, the user just sometimes still complains about it being there in the first place

  11:44:00 <topyli> but that's a different problem

  11:44:19 <AlanBell> ok, can we close it without the system sending them a mail to remind them about it?

  11:44:29 <topyli> yes, close it

  11:44:50 <topyli> we'll get to bantracker zero!d

  11:44:55 <AlanBell> last activity on that was in November

  11:45:14 <AlanBell> yup, then we have nothing in the private tracker at all

  11:45:54 <topyli> but now we have lots of launchpad bugs

  11:45:59 <AlanBell> yes

  11:46:13 <AlanBell> if anything comes back in the tracker we will mention it in a future meeting

  11:46:31 <AlanBell> but launchpad bugs are the way forward

  11:46:38 <AlanBell> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council

  11:46:46 <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 892501 Floodbots - need a re-write to be under ubuntu operator team control - ikonia

  11:46:47 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 892501 in ubuntu-community "Floodbots - need a re-write to be under ubuntu operator team control" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892501

  11:46:54 <AlanBell> Fix committed \o/

  11:47:10 <AlanBell> I am very pleased to announce that the floodbots will go through a managed process of being open sourced

  11:47:21 <topyli> there are beginnings of a project to get on with this

  11:47:27 <Pici> yay

  11:47:31 <oCean> nice

  11:47:42 <AlanBell> The first step happened this week when we worked with LJL to set up a launchpad project for them

  11:47:51 <AlanBell> Canonical have provided private code hosting and a small team will work with LJL to get the code ready for wider public scrutiny.

  11:48:01 <AlanBell> The first commit of the floodbot code was done on Tuesday

  11:48:21 <AlanBell> https://launchpad.net/floodbot

  11:48:47 <LjL> I'd like anyone who would like to work on the floodbots code to get in contact with the IRC Council or me.

  11:49:07 <AlanBell> yup, that would be great

  11:49:33 <AlanBell> I think we now have a good strategy for the future of the floodbots and I believe the concerns expressed in this bug are now resolved

  11:50:21 <topyli> i agree

  11:50:58 <AlanBell> any further high level comments about the floodbots? we can discuss details at a later meeting I think

  11:51:30 <AlanBell> ok, moving on

  11:51:32 <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 892500 eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu -ikonia

  11:51:34 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 892500 in ubuntu-community "eir is still not fit for purpose in #ubuntu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892500

  11:52:00 <AlanBell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots?field.searchtext=[eir]

  11:52:25 <AlanBell> I have been trying to understand eir a bit, and what it does, and what it should do

  11:53:21 <AlanBell> and I have been trying a few different experiments, figuring out how we can make the messages more useful by linking them to the bantracker etc

  11:53:32 <LjL> I'd much rather see ubottu managing these things than eir. If the FloodBots not being "under operator team control" was a problem, then I don't see how eir is any better in this.

  11:53:38 <AlanBell> also discovered that when it does a nagflood it maxes out at 10 messages

  11:53:44 <Pici> I personally think that its features should be folded into ubottu (either new bantracker or old). The current implementation is a bit clunky and of course we don't have direct control.

  11:54:31 <oCean> I agree with LjL and Pici

  11:54:41 <AlanBell> I think now eir is configured reasonably well, and being used reasonably well, but still doesn't add a huge amount of value

  11:55:11 <AlanBell> it seems that the floodbots could be extended to tidy up their own bans or ubottu could be extended to do the good bits of what eir does

  11:56:22 <AlanBell> improving eir and contributing back enhancements to freenode is an appealing concept, but fewer bots seems like a less complicated architecture

  11:56:53 <Pici> I think thats something that most of us can agree with

  11:57:05 <oCean> Indeed, integrating both bots is never going to be easy, and probably needs effort on both bots

  11:57:37 <LjL> What is it exactly that ubottu and the floodbots don't do yet?

  11:57:49 <oCean> LjL: remind us of expired bans

  11:57:54 <funkyHat> Annoy the ops in -team ;D

  11:58:05 <LjL> Doesn't ubottu does that in PM though?

  11:58:23 <topyli> funkyHat: a noble cause!

  11:58:50 <oCean> right, on a per-op basis. The nagging in the team channel, so ops could see each others bans, is not a feature requested by ops but by the ircc originially i think

  11:59:20 <LjL> Well, I suppose nagging everyone has a purpose, but in my opinion it just means that everyone will ignore all the spam.

  11:59:28 <LjL> To me, doing it in PM seems much cleaner.

  11:59:47 <LjL> If an op wants to review someone else's bans, they can still do it through the bantracker.

  12:00:25 <oCean> I agree, and I still like to know whether we are responsible for each others bans or not, and to what extent

  12:01:31 <AlanBell> I think the policy is that people don't "own" bans as such

  12:01:55 <Pici> Agreed.

  12:02:06 <topyli> do the bans pile up less now though? that was the original purpose i think

  12:02:34 <oCean> topyli: yes, there's a nice trend http://status.nullcortex.com/other/other/ircbans.html

  12:02:45 <Pici> I think they've improvd that.

  12:02:48 <topyli> i think there are less panic situations about full trackers

  12:03:02 <Pici> Definitely that as well.

  12:03:16 <LjL> topyli: ubottu was also changed to remind us of bans, though, as mentioned. How much is it eir and how much is it ubottu?

  12:03:30 <funkyHat> Would it be possible to have some bot give a list of bans periodically in -team, ideally with more than one ban per message?

  12:03:50 <funkyHat> So we would still get the reminders, but with significantly reduced annoyance?

  12:03:51 <topyli> LjL: that's true

  12:04:10 <LjL> funkyHat: To what purpose? You can get at the bans with a /mode b, and if you cram them into one message, there won't be space for any comments about them so what's the added value?

  12:04:38 <oCean> funkyHat, LjL : that's what I intended with my script, this overview hold more (useful i hope) information

  12:04:43 <LjL> yes

  12:04:55 <LjL> indeed, I was going to ask - what about *statistics* in #ubuntu-ops-team instead?

  12:05:02 <LjL> not the individual bans, but information about the status

  12:05:03 <funkyHat> LjL: I'm thinking of something similar to eir's current behaviour, where it nags about recent bans or bans that haven't been put on a quiet list

  12:05:21 <oCean> LjL: exactly, a per-op reminder and general stats in -team

  12:05:57 <LjL> funkyHat: I think we'd get the same complaints we have now about eir. Ops won't accept something that they feel has no added value to just peeking the banlist.

  12:06:00 <Pici> Much to the chagrin of the bot coders, I think we may need to play with a few implementations to see what works best.

  12:06:16 <AlanBell> agreed

  12:06:25 <AlanBell> bit of prototyping and experimenting

  12:07:02 <oCean> Really? Shouldn't we just start with requirements?

  12:07:13 <AlanBell> where is the fun in that?

  12:07:21 <topyli> hehe

  12:07:27 <LjL> I lean on the prototyping and experimenting

  12:07:41 <AlanBell> anyhow, please file requirements as bugs here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bots?field.searchtext=[eir]

  12:07:42 <oCean> really? isn't that what got us in this situation?

  12:07:53 <Pici> oCean: Of course. But we know that sometimes whats described in features doesn't always translte well to practice.

  12:07:53 <funkyHat> LjL: hm ok. I would find that less annoying than the current behaviour, but if it's going to still annoy others just as much then there's no point

  12:07:53 <oCean> a requirement as a bug?

  12:08:09 <AlanBell> oCean: yes

  12:08:16 <AlanBell> so they can be tracked and discussed

  12:08:19 <LjL> oCean: I don't think so. What got us in this situation was prototyping and experimenting that kind of failed, but which was still pushed.

  12:08:21 <funkyHat> Yes that's pretty standard practise for software development

  12:08:31 <funkyHat> (requirements as bugs)

  12:08:41 <AlanBell> tag it [eir] for the time being even though it might not end up implemented in eir

  12:10:03 <AlanBell> ok, I think until the next meeting we should keep eir, whilst actively tinkering with other plans, make sense?

  12:10:36 <LjL> I'm not so sure. What about we tentatively remove eir and "advertize" ubottu's ability to remind of bans, and see if the banlist grows?

  12:11:09 <oCean> Yes, I'm all for removing it

  12:11:15 <AlanBell> dunno, what does everyone think? speak now . . .

  12:11:21 <funkyHat> I agree with LjL, we've had quite a long time of "testing" eir and people still aren't happy with it. Lets test not having it and see what goes wrong

  12:11:55 <topyli> afaik eir also has handy autoremove timeouts, which ubottu doesn't

  12:12:22 <AlanBell> ah, it also has a load of them in it's memory right now

  12:12:34 <Pici> I personally have been using those autoremove things, and I've noticed that a number of other ops do as well.

  12:12:56 <Pici> Despite the spam, I find that a worthwile feature.

  12:12:58 <LjL> Is it possible then to just remove some of the nagging from #ubuntu-ops-team?

  12:13:21 <AlanBell> we could maybe shut it up, or move the control channel?

  12:13:44 <LjL> #ubuntu-ops-monitor would be a more fit place in my opinion

  12:13:48 <LjL> It's a more "opt in" channel

  12:13:50 <Pici> LjL: me too

  12:14:00 <Pici> er, mine too

  12:14:10 <AlanBell> right now if someone set a %~30d eir will have it on the todo list to remove that, I wouldn't want to remove eir right now and have that not happen

  12:14:23 <LjL> That's a valid point.

  12:14:52 <oCean> AlanBell: there's bans set #~365d - we have to wait at least 1 year?

  12:15:09 <LjL> oCean: Well, no, it would "simply" require a transfer to ubottu

  12:15:19 <AlanBell> oCean: not too worried about # it is the % I want to happen

  12:15:56 <oCean> AlanBell: nvm the # or %, it's as LjL says, at one point we have to transfer it.

  12:16:15 <LjL> Well, oCean, we simply can't do it right now, ubottu doesn't have the code for *that* yet

  12:16:22 <oCean> I understand

  12:16:43 <oCean> Ok, best choice seems to be to leave eir in the channel then

  12:17:03 <AlanBell> ok, so should we find out if we can move the eir control channel to -ops-monitor and maybe turn down the nag frequency to 24 hours or something?

  12:17:09 <topyli> let's see if we can make it more quiet one way or another, but leave it 12:17:22 * bkerensa must depart to bed (4:17am) gnight

  12:17:24 <LjL> AlanBell: I don't care how frequent it is as long as it's in #ubuntu-ops-monitor personally

  12:17:46 <Pici> LjL: Is there any problem with eir sending notices to -ops-monitor?

  12:17:59 <oCean> AlanBell: please note that the nag frequency is the same as the frequency that eir uses to actually remove

  12:18:15 <LjL> Pici: technical problems you mean? There shouldn't be, but if the floodbots act up, it should be easy to fix them

  12:18:29 <AlanBell> bots shouldn't react to notices (that is what they are for)

  12:18:34 <Pici> LjL: okay

  12:18:48 <LjL> AlanBell: Well, the floodbots do react to notices in #ubuntu, by banning the noticer

  12:18:55 <AlanBell> heh, OK

  12:18:57 <topyli> moving the nags seems like the best solution that would let people who want to see them still enjoy them

  12:19:05 <funkyHat> +1

  12:19:31 <AlanBell> ok, lets find out if we can do that without it forgetting its current todo list for #ubuntu

  12:19:32 <LjL> AlanBell: Unfortunately or whatever, there is a difference between what the RFC say and what people use notices for...

  12:20:27 <oCean> Can I ask if generating my overview every now and then is useful?

  12:20:47 <AlanBell> #action ircc to move eir control channel to -ops-monitor if this will preserve existing ban timeouts 12:20:47 * meetingology ircc to move eir control channel to -ops-monitor if this will preserve existing ban timeouts

  12:20:52 <AlanBell> oCean: yes, it is

  12:21:00 <LjL> is

  12:21:15 <oCean> Ok, does it need some form of pw protection?

  12:21:24 <AlanBell> ok, lets move on to the next bug

  12:21:38 <LjL> oCean: i wouldn't think so, it's all info that can be obtained from /mode b, no?

  12:21:48 <oCean> LjL: no, not the expiry times

  12:21:57 <LjL> Ah, I see.

  12:22:00 <LjL> Maybe that does.

  12:22:15 <oCean> Ok, I'll look into that, let's continue

  12:22:17 <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 912783 IRC votes and surveys go to the ubuntu members which excludes some operators - LJL

  12:22:19 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 912783 in ubuntu-community "IRC votes and surveys go to the ubuntu members which excludes some operators" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/912783

  12:22:29 <AlanBell> we have discussed this internally and with the CC

  12:23:18 <AlanBell> there are two slightly separate questions here, voting and the survey

  12:23:22 <AlanBell> the irc Members group was set up specifically for voting and we want Ubuntu Members to have a say in the governance of Ubuntu

  12:23:43 <topyli> ultimately it's up to the CC who are included in the electorate, not us. but surveys are another thing

  12:24:06 <AlanBell> if you are an op in a core channel then that is a significant and sustained contribution to Ubuntu and you would be well placed to apply for membership through the IRCC or another membership body

  12:25:21 <AlanBell> the recent survey was deliberately sent to the IRC Members, but future surveys if we do them could be sent to all members, all ops, ops of specific channels or any other arbitary group that seems sensible at the time based on what we want to ask

  12:26:15 <LjL> Please consider the possibility of more actively encouraging ops to become members, then, and make it clear they don't have to feel embarrassed if their only contribution appears to be being an op.

  12:26:28 <AlanBell> yes, lets do that

  12:26:38 <Pici> aye aye

  12:26:50 <topyli> yes

  12:27:05 <AlanBell> ok, so we will add a comment to that effect to the bug and close it off I think

  12:27:14 <LjL> Ok.

  12:27:19 <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 884671 Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly - jussi

  12:27:20 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 884671 in ubuntu-community "Ubuntu IRC operator recruitment is slow and ungainly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/884671

  12:27:55 <AlanBell> this is how the core ops team has grown over the last 2 years http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/coreops.png

  12:28:02 <AlanBell> about 4 people per release cycle

  12:28:33 <topyli> we certainly don't want the process to discourage people from applying. where it does, we should of course fix it

  12:28:34 <AlanBell> we currently have 23 applications pending for core channels (which includes existing ops, and probably people we would decline)

  12:29:04 <AlanBell> I am thinking that we should use the #lubuntu induction as a model and move to a more release cycle based regular thing across all channels

  12:29:47 <AlanBell> so each release we would process the pending queues for all channels and then run an induction/training for the new intake all together

  12:29:48 <topyli> sometimes we just need ops and sometimes we don't, though

  12:30:05 <LjL> I was honestly thinking of a move in the opposite direction, i.e. going back (*additionally*, not as a substitute to the process!) to actively "pinging" people who the council finds fit, and making the process as smooth as possible for them.

  12:30:08 <AlanBell> so we might end up overstaffed in a few areas

  12:30:14 <AlanBell> how is that a bad thing?

  12:30:41 <LjL> I've been here for some time, and while of course things have changed and cannot be treated the same way as before, I guarantee that the old way of appointing ops had its share of advantages.

  12:31:35 <LjL> I certainly wouldn't make it a *more* process-driven thing than it is now.

  12:31:50 <topyli> AlanBell: well it would be a good problem to have if anything, i suppose .)

  12:31:54 <AlanBell> LjL: I can certainly see us encouraging some people to apply, I am just thinking of making it more regular and predictable and in line with the cadence of the release cycle

  12:32:14 <LjL> AlanBell: But why? If someone can be a good op *now*, and the Council knows that, why wait?

  12:32:39 <AlanBell> LjL: at the moment we keep people "like Myrtti in -server" hanging for so long in the queue that they forget they are there

  12:33:13 <AlanBell> LjL: so that we can do a more organised induction

  12:33:18 <LjL> AlanBell: Well, then maybe you aren't all so convinced they should be good ops, or something. I don't know - what's stopping you from accepting or declining?

  12:33:33 <Myrtti> the what huh?

  12:33:37 <ikonia> -server is crazy

  12:33:44 <ikonia> for some reason we won't put ops in it ???

  12:33:53 <ikonia> I've sat on the list for about 18 months now

  12:34:12 <funkyHat> I think I'm on the pending list for -server too, heh

  12:34:23 <oCean> I'm too, I think...

  12:34:34 <AlanBell> LjL: applications from existing ops we could probably process very fast and as they happen

  12:34:39 <Pici> I think we need to actively work the list, not wait for a new cycle.

  12:34:45 <LjL> Pici: +1

  12:34:50 <oCean> +1

  12:34:57 <ikonia> it would be helpful to decline people who are not fit quicker

  12:35:02 <ikonia> rather than making them go through the song and dance

  12:35:17 <ikonia> be a bit more common sense rather than ticking boxes

  12:35:31 <topyli> well, in principle nothing prevents us from giving ops to anyone we like as it. we just haven't done so

  12:35:33 <Pici> ikonia: I was just going to say something like that

  12:35:42 <topyli> as it is*

  12:35:51 <ikonia> topyli: -ops is a great example of that

  12:35:52 <LjL> topyli: Is there a particular reason then?

  12:36:31 <ikonia> I was told to go through the whole application process, update my wiki all that sort of stuff to get ops in -ops, and to be honest, it just seemed like a waste of time as at that moment, we where empty handed

  12:36:36 <ikonia> in the same way for server

  12:36:58 <ikonia> at the time I applied -server was getting hit with issues, but the processes was a total waste of time

  12:37:04 <topyli> i can't remember why we don't. i do know why the process ended up like it is, but i don't know how we stopped the "old way"

  12:37:04 <ikonia> rather than applying common sense

  12:37:33 <AlanBell> ok, I think we need common sense and a fast process for existing ops adding more channels

  12:37:41 <LjL> Seriously, "good" people will burn out before they have a chance of getting ops. It's happening.

  12:37:59 <ikonia> exactly

  12:38:09 <ikonia> you get fed up of trying to push it/get the issue resolved

  12:38:30 <LjL> And tight processes like this always end up scarying away "good" people who don't like to brag, and attract sillier people instead.

  12:38:32 <ikonia> but the opposite is also true,

  12:38:34 <ikonia> someone like bacta can apply for ops and be told to go through the proces

  12:38:36 <Pici> I say we work the queues every meeting and look at our procedures for adding existing ops on-the-fly

  12:38:38 <ikonia> rather than just saying "no, that's not going to happen"

  12:39:02 <funkyHat> Pici: +1

  12:39:13 <Pici> or before every meeting, or some other sane but regular cycle

  12:39:27 <ikonia> isn't there a team owning this ?

  12:39:28 <AlanBell> getting it regular is what I am aiming for

  12:39:35 <ikonia> eg: when someone applies, deal with the request

  12:39:58 <LjL> Pici: That's fine, but please please also don't sleep on people you spot in #ubuntu or anywhere who you think are good, and as AlanBell says, "voluntell" them.

  12:40:05 <AlanBell> "When the Ubuntu IRC Council notices the need to have more operators in a particular channel or channels, they will send an email to the ubuntu-irc mailing list."

  12:40:17 <AlanBell> that is the level of current regularity

  12:40:37 <Pici> Working the queues != asking for more ops

  12:40:46 <LjL> AlanBell: Getting it regular also risks meaning closing the door to some lovely irregularities. I hope you don't want that to happen.

  12:42:04 <funkyHat> I think whatever "policy" we have on the process we can still make common sense exceptions, like ikonia said

  12:42:18 <Pici> (We've been at this for nearly two hours now :/)

  12:42:19 <LjL> The fact you all have been chosen for this IRC Council position *does* mean you're trusted to know who deserves being dragged into being an op.

  12:42:20 <AlanBell> LjL: it is the epic long waits on the pending list I want to stop

  12:43:24 <AlanBell> ok, lets move on from this now, we can revisit at the next meeting and add comments to the bug in the mean time. We will be doing some recruitment in the very short term with #lubuntu

  12:43:33 <ikonia> just noticed my -server join request has expired

  12:43:40 <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 913541 there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group - AlanBell

  12:43:42 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 913541 in ubuntu-community "there are a number of people with Ubuntu IRC cloaks who have expired from the ubuntumembers group" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913541

  12:43:54 <LjL> We used to have a script to check that, does it still work?

  12:44:06 <AlanBell> about 19 people we need to clean up and nhandler detailed the process for us

  12:44:15 <AlanBell> LjL: yeah, works a treat

  12:44:43 <AlanBell> not much to discuss on this bug, we will be dealing with it and update on the situation next meeting

  12:44:56 <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 887544 No measurable data on ban resolving process in #ubuntu-ops - jussi

  12:44:58 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 887544 in ubuntu-community "No measurable data on ban resolving process in #ubuntu-ops" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887544

  12:45:45 <Pici> Is this really an issue?

  12:45:45 <AlanBell> there has been a bit of debate on this bug, the concensus appears to be that it is hard to make any measurements and the value of them is a bit questionable

  12:46:18 <AlanBell> I am inclined to close it until someone comes up with something they want to measure and a plan of how to do so

  12:46:27 <topyli> no progress, but also no hurry. some interesting/useful data could probably be generated, but i'm not exactly sure what

  12:47:09 <LjL> There's no harm in keeping stuff open if the idea is still... open, I think

  12:47:18 <AlanBell> maybe we could set it to opinion or something to indicate it is on hold rather than closed

  12:47:30 <topyli> yes

  12:47:52 <Pici> [wishlist]?

  12:47:53 <AlanBell> great, moving on

  12:48:03 <AlanBell> Pici: makes sense

  12:48:07 <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 916247 devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention - AlanBell

  12:48:09 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 916247 in ubuntu-community "devel wiki on ubottu.com needs some attention" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916247

  12:48:35 <AlanBell> we appear to have a somewhat spam filled mediawiki instance kicking about

  12:49:11 <Pici> I'd like to see this moved to wiki.u.c

  12:49:14 <AlanBell> I would propose we evacuate any decent content (technical stuff about the bots mostly) to wiki.ubuntu.com and shut down this wiki

  12:49:19 <funkyHat> +1

  12:49:50 <topyli> agreed

  12:49:54 <AlanBell> ok lets do that and update next meeting

  12:49:59 <AlanBell> #subtopic bug 788503 IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric - tsimpson

  12:50:00 <ubottu> Launchpad bug 788503 in ubuntu-community "IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/788503

  12:50:06 <LjL> I would also out of courtesy discuss it with tsimpson...

  12:50:10 <Pici> +1, but I'd like to hear from ts2 and jussi as to why i

  12:50:14 <Pici> yes

  12:50:28 <AlanBell> agreed LjL

  12:50:59 <topyli> there is the guidelines draft and it's improved, but it still needs a bit of love

  12:51:22 <AlanBell> ok, don't think I have seen that, lets review it and try and close this one next meeting

  12:51:38 <Pici> sounds good to me

  12:51:55 <AlanBell> that is the end of our bug review \o/

  12:52:16 <AlanBell> future meetings will be shorter

  12:52:24 <AlanBell> #topic Definition of where official announcements from the IRCC will be made for those with a need for no discussion but announcements - jussi

  12:52:46 <AlanBell> this was added by jussi, not sure he is available right now

  12:53:11 <Pici> I don't see why this can't be done on the mailing list and perhaps in the topic of -ops and -irc

  12:53:14 <AlanBell> basically we will announce things in a meeting, and on the mailing list

  12:54:05 <Myrtti> not -ops-team?

  12:54:21 <AlanBell> I think we should leave this item on the agenda for the next meeting when maybe jussi is available, there is some more text on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/IRCteamproposal

  12:54:26 <Myrtti> there's people in there that aren't idling on -ops

  12:54:28 <Pici> Myrtti: thats good too

  12:54:29 <AlanBell> Myrtti: yes, that too

  12:54:49 <Myrtti> and vice versa, so all three would probably be good

  12:55:11 <topyli> they should also end up in the team reports, for future generations to cherish

  12:55:17 <AlanBell> yeah, I think he was encouraging us to set up a blog/twitter thing, which I am not overly keen on

  12:55:43 <AlanBell> IRC seems the natural medium for the IRCC to make announcements on

  12:56:19 <topyli> we do blog about stuff and it ends up on planet

  12:56:27 <AlanBell> yup

  12:56:32 <ikonia> "just banned a user, lol"

  12:56:34 <ikonia> twitter.....really ?

  12:56:42 <LjL> topyli: Maybe you could just agree to tag stuff relevant to the IRC Council with a standard tag?

  12:57:02 <topyli> we could. i've been ucing 'ircc' myself 12:57:19 * Pici is running low on laptop (and huamn) energy.

  12:57:26 <AlanBell> lets park this idea to the next meeting, suggestions and comments welcome in the mean time

  12:57:28 <topyli> ikonia:

  12:57:29 <AlanBell> #topic Any Other Business

  12:57:33 <funkyHat> I have a quick one, dax pointed out that external links on irclogs.ubuntu.com should have rel="nofollow". I submitted a fix to irclog2html, which has been accepted, we could easily patch our local copy pending a new release

  12:57:42 <funkyHat> https://bugs.launchpad.net/irclog2html/+bug/914553

  12:57:43 <ubottu> Ubuntu bug 914553 in irclog2html "URL replacement should set rel="nofollow"" [Wishlist,Fix committed]

  12:57:53 <AlanBell> good one, yes

  12:57:55 <funkyHat> I also wrote a one-liner to fix the existing logs

  12:58:05 <funkyHat> Who has access to the server to apply that?

  12:58:39 <AlanBell> um, an rt request perhaps?

  12:58:53 <Pici> We'd need to get this implemented with rt, wich probably isn't going to be too keen on not using a repo provided update

  12:59:06 <Pici> although it doesn't hurt to try

  12:59:18 <AlanBell> ok, lets add that one to our todo list to update for the next meeting

  12:59:22 <LjL> Last meeting (or the one before the last) I mentioned whether it would be a good idea for a bot to tell banned users about their ban and relevant stuff (like how to appeal and how NOT to appeal), I don't suppose it has been considered further?

  12:59:55 <AlanBell> LjL: don't think it has been considered further, but we can add it to the next meeting

  12:59:56 <ikonia> certainly a good idea to point them to -ops

  13:00:06 <ikonia> don't think throwing stuff like !appeals at each ban is wise

  13:00:11 <topyli> LjL: it hasn't, but i like the idea

  13:00:23 <LjL> ikonia: i was thinking of a custom and well-thought message.

  13:00:51 <LjL> which would mainly point them to -ops and tell them how to behave there.

  13:00:55 <ikonia> LjL: pretty worth while

  13:01:40 <LjL> (technically, the floodbots could do it easily)

  13:01:50 <AlanBell> I like that idea, will add it as a feature bug in the cloud of eir related requirements

  13:01:57 <Pici> uh oh, laptop is beeping at me now.

  13:02:06 <AlanBell> ok, any more items?

  13:02:14 <AlanBell> 3

  13:02:18 <AlanBell> 2

  13:02:23 <AlanBell> 1

  13:02:26 <LjL> WAIT

  13:02:27 <Pici> Nothing from me, but will review the minutes after I wake up further later ;

  13:02:28 <LjL> no, nothing

  13:02:30 <Pici> )

  13:02:32 <AlanBell> #endmeeting