08:01 siretart   I think think we can begin,
08:01 Nafallo    hi slomo_, siretart :-)
08:02 siretart   ok
08:02 slomo_     when someone has some last minute ideas for the "agenda" feel free to add it _now_ to the wikipage above ;)
08:03 siretart   I'm not sure if everyone is aware of the MOTUMedia team
08:03 sistpoty   slomo_: looks like it... do we also want to discuss 1) open motu day (dholbach) and 2) universecandidates vs. support tickets (siretart iirc)?
08:03 siretart   currently, I think slomo and me are the only active ones
08:03 siretart   and crimsun of course
08:03 dholbach   sistpoty: errr, this is more of a media meeting
08:03 siretart   we want to improve the general situation of mutlimedia support in dapper
08:03 sistpoty   dholbach: ah, k.
08:03 dholbach   sistpoty: there was some confusion around the mail title
08:03 siretart   and this meeting is some sort of big call for help
08:03 dholbach   sorry for that
08:04 siretart   we have summarized our current biggest problem on
08:04 siretart   lets start with the first point
08:04 siretart   slomo did an really awesome job and repackaged the mplayer package completly!
08:04 siretart   ROCK!
08:04 dholbach   :)
08:04 slomo_     sistpoty: maybe it can be done afterwards... we'll see :)
08:04 siretart   *applause*
=== JohnnyMast gives an applause :p
08:05 raphink    oooh I'm late
08:05 raphink    :s
08:05 sistpoty   good work, slomo_!
08:05 siretart   one important change was to separate mplayer-skins package
08:05 siretart   which I uploaded a few days ago
08:05 siretart   the problem with the package: elmo rejected my first upload
08:05 slomo_     before we had exactly one skin shipping with the mplayer package
08:06 Nafallo    Blue :-)
08:06 siretart   because most of the skins (including the one we had!!) had no sufficient licence statement
08:06 siretart   the current mplayer-skins package has only 2 skins
=== McFergus [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
08:06 siretart   which are both gpl
08:06 siretart   we urgently need more and better skins for mplayer
08:07 siretart   if somebody sees a better and properly licenced skin, please add it to the mplayer-skins package!
08:07 Nafallo    don't we have an artwork-team? :-)
08:07 siretart   Nafallo: I'm not sure if they are active
08:07 dholbach   Nafallo: good point :)
08:07 siretart   does anyone know about the status of the artwork team?
08:07 lllmanulll Well,
08:07 slomo_     or if someone has some arts skills feel free to create your own one for inclusion in the mplayer-skins package :)
08:07 lllmanulll I'm part of it
08:07 siretart   do we have by chance a member of the artwork team here?
08:07 siretart   ah hi lllmanulll!
08:07 lllmanulll And I'll be happy to contribute, but my opinion is that we need good leadership
08:08 siretart   lllmanulll: do you think the artwork-team could help us with this problem?
08:08 Nafallo    we could always send a mail to ubuntu-art@l.u.c :-)
08:08 lllmanulll Well, the best way is to send an email to the list with the request :)
08:08 lllmanulll If the art team is given a precise, short-term goal, I'm sure a few people will give it a try
08:09 siretart   ok
08:09 lllmanulll Might not be masterpieces, but we can always try :)
08:09 slomo_     well... it wouldn't be really precise... we just need a cool looking skin, no matter what style it is :)
08:09 siretart   lllmanulll: could you draft such a mail? I'll happily review and send it, if you don't mind
08:09 lllmanulll Yeah, "a cool skin for mplayer" is already precise enough
08:09 lllmanulll sure
08:10 siretart   ok. thank you lllmanulll
08:10 siretart   just draft it on the wiki and hand me the link to it
08:10 ajmitch    hi
08:10 lllmanulll ok, no problem
08:10 siretart   other suggestions to mplayer-skins?
08:10 dholbach   hey andrew
08:10 siretart   hi ajmitch
08:10 sistpoty   hi ajmitch
08:10 Nafallo    morning ajmitch
08:10 siretart   none?
08:10 raphink    hi ajmitch
08:11 siretart   ok, then lets proceed to our Multimedia Testplans
08:11 dholbach   yeah!
08:11 slomo_     ok, the multimedia test plan... we need to get some testing procedures decided for dapper to prevent regressions and be aware of what stuff is working and what isn't working... first of all we need good and free sample content... as different in formats and settings as possible
08:11 dholbach   jdub is working on example-content package
08:11 dholbach   we should try to help him as good as we can
08:11 Nafallo    slomo use to send me non-free stuff to try and play ;-)
08:12 dholbach   provide him with links of stuff we *can* ship in such a package
08:12 dholbach   nice streams are cool for the test plan too
08:12 slomo_     sure, that's what i planned to say next :)
08:12 Nafallo    magnatune is nice :-)
08:12 sistpoty   how many different stuff could be made just by the capabilities of mencoder itself?
08:12 dholbach has some ideas on the testing
08:12 dholbach   it was a *very* quick draft :)
08:12 slomo_     but first of all we need to list everything possible and decide which parts are ok to be taken :)
08:13 dholbach   so if you have an idea, what we should test there as well, that'd be great
08:13 slomo_     sistpoty: many... but some formats are not supported yet (sorry, no list yet)
08:13 siretart   dholbach: yeah. to proposal here is to make a list of codecs we want to support
08:13 McFergus   are you going to use the new gstreamer ?
08:13 dholbach   so we can integrate it into the normal test plans
08:13 siretart   dholbach: as well as a checklist, how to test if the codec/the media file actually works in our supported players
08:13 dholbach   McFergus: we'll test what is available
08:13 siretart   dholbach: and what player do we want tested
08:13 siretart   this is what I want to discuss now
08:13 dholbach   i kept the test plans generic
08:14 dholbach   so kubuntu, ubuntu, xubuntu, ... can use them all alike
08:14 siretart   the obvious ones are totem-gstreamer and xine
08:14 siretart   do we want to have mplayer tested as well?
08:14 dholbach   *nod*
08:14 siretart   and what player did I miss?
08:14 dholbach   hmm
08:14 dholbach   vlc
08:14 dholbach   the one that never let me down ;)
08:14 McFergus   amarok ?
08:14 slomo_     yes, these 4 are probably enough... even less could be ok
08:14 slomo_     amarok uses xine or gst afaik... but i could be wrong ;)
08:15 dholbach   most important is what we have in main
08:15 siretart   McFergus: I never tried amarok, but isn't it a music only player?
08:15 Nafallo    amarok, rhythmbox, muine, banshee etc...? :-)
08:15 dholbach   what we officially support
08:15 sistpoty   xmms
08:15 siretart   ok
08:15 raphink    amarok uses xine, artds and gstreamer
08:15 Nafallo    gst and xine stuff is whatever player I guess...
08:16 raphink    s/artds/artsd/
08:16 siretart   raphink: so we don't need to test amarock and kde players, because they are caught by xine
08:16 siretart   right?
08:16 dholbach   which are the tests we want our users to do? are there different ways to get players crashed? :)
08:16 raphink    siretart: amarok is a music only yes, but it does much more than usual music-only players
08:16 Riddell    siretart: they use gstreamer not xine by default
08:16 raphink    and kaffeine is xine/gstreamer aswell
08:17 slomo_     dholbach: i would say... throw as many different streams/files in the player and report what breaks and why... and if it worked before ;)
08:17 siretart   dholbach: I'd propose to have compile list of media files, which have to be downloaded and tested
08:17 slomo_     but for that the sample content is needed
08:17 siretart   s/have compile/compile/
08:17 siretart   right
08:17 siretart   but we need to tell the sample content guys which codecs and which media files we actually want to have tested
08:17 siretart   and we need to actually collect and fetch those files
08:17 dholbach   siretart: s/guys/jdub/ :)
08:18 dholbach   maybe we should list suggestions on a wiki page?
08:18 dholbach   links to those files?
08:18 siretart   dholbach: well, we cannot tell him 'please include all available codecs in sample content - kthnxbye'
08:18 slomo_     definitely, yes
08:18 dholbach   suggestions :)
08:18 dholbach   he will picky himself :)
08:19 siretart   dholbach: I think we should delegate this to a team of perhaps 2 or 3 ppl
08:19 siretart   this delegation would be to compile a list of media files listing codecs and media players which we want to be tested
08:19 dholbach   it's easier, if everybody adds something
08:19 slomo_     dholbach: i would say that we put important stuff (i.e. theora, vorbis, ...) in the sample content package but have a central package listing many more files
08:19 dholbach   and the probability of getting things done ;)
08:19 siretart   dholbach: right, everyone is invited to contribute to that list
08:19 dholbach   right
08:20 dholbach
08:20 dholbach   that's the spec
08:20 siretart   Riddell: what media player engine does KDE use by default if not xine?
08:20 dholbach   it lists some crazy stuff already
08:20 Riddell    siretart: gstreamer
08:20 siretart   sorry, I don't know much about kde :(
08:20 siretart   Riddell: ah, so we don't need specific KDE tests, right?
08:20 Riddell    well KDE uses arts, kaffeine and amarok use gstreamer
08:20 siretart   if it works in totem-gstreamer, it must work in KDE too, right?
08:21 Riddell    siretart: in theory yes
08:21 dholbach   hihi :)
08:21 siretart   :)
08:21 siretart   ok.
=== dholbach knows the feeling after 246927496742967429769426 totem bug report
08:21 dholbach   s
08:21 slomo_     ok, then let's handle players with the same backend like they're the same ;)
08:21 slomo_     for content tests
08:21 siretart   so does someone volunteer to compile these lists?
08:21 dholbach   maybe we should track the state of players
08:21 sistpoty   wasn't there noatun for a long time? is it still there?
08:22 siretart   (this basically means to prepare a wiki page and start with a few sample entries)
08:22 slomo_     dholbach: maybe a table... content x player?
08:22 siretart   yeah, I was also imagining a table
08:22 dholbach   slomo_: yeah and version
08:22 siretart   version?
08:22 dholbach   slomo_: so we see, if things explode
08:22 dholbach   regression
08:22 dholbach   s
08:22 dholbach   stuff that used to work :)
08:23 siretart   ah, version of player
08:23 slomo_     dholbach: hmm, a 3-dimensional table would be hard ;)
08:23 raphink    how would you do that in a 2D table dholbach ?
08:23 siretart   well, that would a link to malone bugs then
08:23 siretart   so, nobody volunteers to start these pages?
08:23 slomo_     what about adding a date when something breaks? last date when it works and date when it was found to be broken?
08:23 raphink    anybody wants to implement a table in openGL ,
08:23 raphink    ?
08:23 dholbach   slomo_, raphink: data redundance :)
08:23 raphink    ;)
08:23 siretart   raphink: I don't think so ;)
08:23 raphink    dholbach: ok ;)
08:24 siretart   ok. I will do that then
08:24 siretart   further comments to this topic?
08:24 dholbach   siretart: which opengl chart are you implementing atm?
08:24 slomo_     thanks siretart :) when you need help just ask me
08:24 siretart   dholbach: no, I was talking about wiki pages
08:24 dholbach   yeah, which one?
08:24 siretart   dholbach: the player x content/codec table
08:24 dholbach   cool
08:25 siretart   any further questions or suggestions?
08:25 dholbach   so is ok for you all? i can add it to the normal test plans?
08:25 slomo_     and we should decide about what needs to be put in there when something breaks... just a "broken" with link to malone?
08:25 slomo_     dholbach: fine with me
08:26 siretart   dholbach: I think this should preferably go with test plans, but it also touches example content
08:26 dholbach   slomo_: i think it should suffice to say "broken since 1.5.6-6ubuntu23 ([link to bug] )
08:26 dholbach   siretart: there would be instructions on how to obtain the example content package
08:26 siretart   dholbach: but we from the motumedia team want to do some QA to ensure that we don't miss important codecs for dapper
08:26 siretart   dholbach: I understand they would be uploaded to the archive?
08:26 dholbach   yes
08:27 siretart   so they would be in dapper anyways, what part did I miss?
08:27 dholbach   siretart: if we take our case to jdub, i'm sure he'll be happy to see our points
08:27 slomo_     we can't include everything in the example contents package
08:27 slomo_     that would be just too much
08:27 dholbach   if we have links to random stuff on a wiki page, that'd be nice too (especially streams)
08:27 siretart   slomo_: I think we should discuss this point when we actually have some sample content
08:28 slomo_     siretart: ok
08:28 sistpoty   MOTURadio :)
08:28 siretart   lol
08:28 dholbach   yeah!
08:28 siretart   but good point
08:28 slomo_     hehe
08:28 siretart   streaming should be tested too, will add that to the list
08:28 siretart   ok. further questions/suggestions?
=== dholbach thinks
08:29 siretart   ok
08:29 dholbach   apart from doing testing, what as a team do we want to achive?
08:29 slomo_     and we should add a note that when someone finds something that doesn't play it should be added to malone without fear ;)
08:29 dholbach   we want more people, we want better support for crazy players, what else?
08:29 dholbach   bug upstream guys, keep track of those bugs :)
08:29 dholbach   slomo_: ++
08:30 slomo_     hmm, allow playing of everything legally possible ;)
08:30 JohnnyMast add a cert rss into malone
08:30 raphink    :)
08:30 JohnnyMast with an option to sync it to malone
08:30 siretart   dholbach: we want to improve the multimedia experience by both sample content and testplans
08:31 siretart   I think thats enough work for the motumedia team
08:31 dholbach   sure
08:31 siretart   ok
08:31 siretart   lets talk about the next point, okay?
08:31 dholbach   i just wondered, how we'd appear to the rest of the world
08:31 dholbach   ok
08:31 dholbach   sorry
08:31 dholbach   yes
08:32 slomo_     and we want support for codecs we're currently missing... and maybe new media packages we "need"...
08:32 siretart   the next points are to discuss which codecs we are actually talking about
08:32 slomo_     but that's probably something for universe candidates
08:32 dholbach   slomo_: that'll be your job ;)
08:32 siretart   I'd really like to have some list of the most common codecs, which are supported in main, which in universe and which in multiverse
08:33 siretart   and we have to differentiate between encoding and decoding only
08:33 dholbach   maybe slomo_ should tell us about good, bad and ugly
08:33 dholbach   :)
08:33 slomo_     i could start this list at the weekend
08:33 siretart   it doesn't need to be a list containing every existing codec we may or may not support, the most common ones are okay
08:34 siretart   so this is a call for help, too. Please help us to compile those lists and ask folks who actually have a clue
08:34 siretart   slomo_: that would be great
08:34 siretart   slomo_: a wiki page containing a table as a start would be a really great start
08:34 slomo_     but i would add everything, not just the most common ones
08:34 Nafallo    yea, I was thinking about that good, bad, ugly. hasn't gstreamer already done the job for us or did I miss something? ;-)
08:34 slomo_     and even stuff we don't support currently
08:35 siretart   Nafallo: do you have a link?
08:35 siretart   or does anyone here has some relevant information which could help us compiling such a list?
08:35 Nafallo    siretart: is where I got info about it :-)
08:35 slomo_     Nafallo: partially, yes... but bad are just broken plugins ;) and ugly contains stuff that also could be in main
08:35 Nafallo    damn :-P
08:35 sistpoty   relevant as in I know certain codecs/formats, but irrevelant as I don't exactly know about the goodness/badness of many of them
08:36 siretart   Nafallo: oh, I see. But browsing through past blog entries is,,, unconvienient at best ;)
08:36 raphink    would that be useful ?
08:36 Nafallo    siretart: indeed :-)
08:36 slomo_     raphink: yes, sure... thanks :)
08:36 siretart   perhaps we should note in that compilation of codecs WHY which codec is in which part of the archive
=== siretart looks
08:37 Nafallo    we should let slomo handle this. he just had the transition with libxine :-P
08:37 dholbach   :)
08:37 slomo_     Nafallo: not yet... i hope to get it done at the weekend
08:37 siretart   I don't want to load slomo more than necessary.
08:37 Nafallo    slomo_: even better then. remove codecs and note why on a wikipage ;-)
08:37 siretart   he has done a really awesome job on both mplayer and xine!
08:38 slomo_     siretart: yes, the reasoning would be nice too... a table listing codec, supported where, why... something i forget?
08:38 siretart   slomo_: I think thats enough.
08:38 siretart   other comments?
08:38 slomo_     maybe a "working"-column?
08:39 dholbach   which licenses we have explain to whom? :)
08:39 siretart   slomo_: if it isn't working, mark it in the 'supported where' coloumn
08:39 raphink    dholbach: version of the licence and comment from RMS ?
08:39 siretart   supported where: nowhere
08:39 slomo_     dholbach: it's mostly not license related... it's just ugly patents ;)
08:39 dholbach   raphink: yeah, that'd be nice "Comments from RMS - collec them all!"
08:40 raphink    haha
08:40 siretart   dholbach: the most difficult issues are political and legal issues of companys threatening with patents
08:40 dholbach   yeah :(
08:40 dholbach   wow, we must have a 6-dimension table now... "MediaTEAM - taking you to the 6th dimension..."
08:40 raphink    evil patents
=== felipe_ [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
08:40 siretart   dholbach: we cannot do much about them as MOTUs, we can just say 'its gpl, but we don't want to distribute them because we fear prosecution...'
08:40 slomo_     dholbach: well... 2 tables ;)
08:41 dholbach   slomo_: i know :)
08:41 siretart   dholbach: why 6 dimension table?
08:41 dholbach   because i was kidding and for the nice slogan's sake
08:41 dholbach   excuse me
08:41 ajmitch    heh
08:41 slomo_     let's name the "why" column legal assessment and note below that we're not lawyers
08:41 raphink    ;)
08:41 siretart   raphink: the wikipedia listing seems like a useful start. thanks!
08:42 raphink    wikipedia has nice lists :)
08:42 siretart   slomo_: I think to note 'patent encumbered' is enough
08:43 siretart   perhaps we should rather note if the codecs are problematic due to companys actively enforcing their patents or if they are not enforcing them
08:43 slomo_     siretart: everything is patent encumbered probably ;)
08:43 slomo_     yes, that's what i wanted to put in legal assessment
08:43 siretart   e.g. I think mp3 playing is relativly okay
08:43 raphink    even linux with end patent encumbered
08:44 raphink    s/with/will/
08:44 siretart   ah, okay, then we are having the same thought
08:44 slomo_     siretart: ok as in not distributable on CD
08:44 siretart   ok
08:44 dholbach   which wiki pages do we have now? i mean which names do they have?
08:45 slomo_     hm, and we should distinguish again encoding/decoding... we support for example decoding of alac but no encoding
08:46 siretart   this brings me another question
08:46 siretart   do we want to have encoding tested, too?
08:46 slomo_     dholbach: no idea yet :) what about Media/ListOfSupportedCodecs, Media/CodecState, ...?
08:46 siretart   or just decoding?
08:46 slomo_     encoding too, definitly
08:46 dholbach   slomo_: /Codecs /Status? :)
08:46 slomo_     what would we do if vorbis encoding breaks at some point and noone notices it ;)
=== crimsun [i=crimsun@pdpc/supporter/silver/crimsun] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
08:46 Nafallo    hi crimsun :-)
08:47 slomo_     hi crimsun :)
08:47 crimsun    hi Nafallo, slomo_
08:47 raphink    hi crimsun
08:47 crimsun    (& etc. ;-)
08:47 dholbach   :-)
08:47 slomo_     dholbach: Media/Codecs/{List,State}?
08:47 raphink    :)
08:48 slomo_     hmm, seems to be redundant somehow...
08:48 siretart   slomo_: puh. then the testplans needs to document how to actually do the encoding
08:48 dholbach   Media/Codecs, Media/State, Media/Team, Media/NewStuff, Media/P0rn^WLinks, Media/EmergencyPhoneNumbers
08:49 dholbach   siretart: if it's not a common use case, maybe that's something we should test for our owns, what do you think?
08:49 Nafallo    EmergencyPhoneNumbers? :-P
08:49 dholbach   Nafallo: if vorbis encoding breaks :)
08:49 ajmitch    hah
08:50 slomo_     siretart: let's make it low priority then... decoding is definitely more important
08:50 sistpoty   and I tried so hard not to write the p^WLinks word ;)
08:50 siretart   dholbach: would you know how to use transcode to encode something in vidx with ogg/vorbis audio?
08:50 dholbach   siretart: no
08:50 siretart   this is what I mean would be needed for the testplans
08:50 Nafallo    dholbach: we should be able to call soon, no? ;-)
08:50 dholbach   siretart: i only tried thoggen and flamed^Wtalked to slomo about it
08:50 slomo_     siretart: but we should list it in the table for reference... whoever wants to test it does it and we do it ourself otherwise
08:51 slomo_     dholbach: and i bugged upstream about it... but got no answer yet :(
08:51 siretart   slomo_: yes.
08:51 dholbach   thoggen, soundconverter, sound-juicer, istanbul are encoders, i know
08:51 siretart   slomo_: but lets not 'officially' make testing encoding a requirement
08:51 siretart   I don't think we have the manpower to do that
08:51 dholbach   siretart: ++
08:51 slomo_     siretart: yes, that's what i mean :)
08:51 siretart   ok
08:52 slomo_     dholbach: mencoder, transcode, gst-launch ;)
08:52 Nafallo    banshee is decoder/encoder? ;-)
=== dholbach never used banshee
=== dholbach blushes
08:52 Nafallo    food
08:53 siretart   ok. do we have any other business we need to discuss?
08:53 Nafallo    later :-)
08:53 siretart   cu Nafallo !
08:53 dholbach   see you Nafallo
08:53 sistpoty   cya Nafallo
08:53 ajmitch    work calls, bbl
08:53 raphink    bye Nafallo
08:53 slomo_     we need to create a overview page probably :)
08:53 sistpoty   cya ajmitch
08:53 slomo_     bye ajmitch
08:53 siretart   bye ajmitch
08:53 dholbach   bye andrew
08:53 siretart   slomo_: overview page?
08:53 dholbach   slomo_: Media
08:53 dholbach   where we document, what the team does, who's in it
08:53 slomo_     yes... a page that lists all relevant media pages
08:53 dholbach   why we needs more people
08:54 dholbach   Media and Media/*
08:54 dholbach   and we remove all the other ones :)
08:54 siretart   do we want to introduce a hirarchy or can we take
08:54 dholbach   there's MOTUMeida and Motumultimedia
08:54 crimsun    is it specific to MOTU, though?
08:54 dholbach   siretart: because stuff is in main, i suggest moving to Media
08:54 slomo_     leaving out MOTU seems to be a good idea probably... it's not MOTU specific
08:54 crimsun    right.
08:54 siretart   Motumultimedia?
08:55 slomo_     so just Media and Media/*
08:55 dholbach   yes, i saw it, searching for "Media"
08:55 dholbach   yeah
08:55 raphink    moltumedia ? :
08:55 siretart   dholbach: It is just a redirection to MOTUMedia ;)
=== dholbach takes away raphink's crack pipe and puts it to his own pile :)
08:55 dholbach   siretart: oh, right :)
08:56 slomo_     ok, so who wants to start the "main" page? :)
08:56 dholbach   i think the team will overlap with the desktopteam and the kubuntu team and the motu team, ... but i think that's fine
08:56 siretart   ok. Then who wants to create a framework/hierarchy Media/*?
08:56 siretart   (please not again slome or me ;)
08:56 dholbach   i'll start Media
08:56 slomo_     thanks daniel :)
08:56 siretart   thanks
08:56 dholbach   slomo_ volunteered to start the dummy tables
=== siretart too
08:57 slomo_     dholbach: not dummy... mine will contain some useful content from the beginning... i hope ;)
08:57 dholbach   slomo_: sorry for insulting you, i didn't mean to ;)
08:57 siretart   ok. I think we are done with the agenda then
08:57 slomo_     dholbach: i didn't perceive it as such, don't worry *hug* :)
08:58 dholbach   i was kidding... nevermind me today ;)
08:58 dholbach   ok, so somebody else has to write the meeting minutes
=== dholbach whistles innocently
08:58 siretart   There was some confusion that we'll have a MOTU Meeting after this meeting
08:58 raphink    can I drop a word about the queue on REVU?
08:58 siretart   which would be now (or in 2 minutes)
08:58 siretart   ah raphink wants to talk about revu
08:58 raphink    hmmm
08:59 sistpoty   hm... do we need a motumeeting now? or would it be better to schedule this at another time?
08:59 siretart   I'd suggest that we adjurn now the Media meeting and have a quick MOTU Meeting right now
08:59 slomo_     dholbach: will you notify me when the Media page is started? :)
08:59 raphink    well the queue on REVU is growing fast
08:59 dholbach   so who writes the "The newly instated Media Team decided that ..." mail?
08:59 dholbach   slomo_: you can start Media/Bla anyways now :)
08:59 dholbach   slomo_: but i'll do
08:59 siretart   dholbach: I'll try to write a summary about this meeting, okay?
08:59 dholbach   siretart: ROCK
08:59 dholbach   thanks a lot
08:59 slomo_     dholbach: oh, ok :)
09:00 slomo_     i have logged everything and could put the log up somewhere if needed
09:00 siretart   ok.
=== siretart logs, too
09:00 siretart   ok
09:00 siretart   lets talk about revu, then, okay?
09:00 sistpoty   raphink: your stage now ;)
09:00 dholbach logs too
09:00 raphink    sistpoty: sure
09:01 raphink    well I surely haven't been using REVU for long so I don't know about its past
09:01 raphink    but the list of packages to review on REVU is growing very fast lately
09:01 raphink    and packages are hardly approved
09:01 raphink    REVU days were planned last weekend
09:01 raphink    but not a lot of reviews have been done
09:01 raphink    (I might be wrong on this)
09:02 raphink    talking with packagers, it seems the common opinion is that the web interface is not efficient enough
=== dholbach reviewed some, but not overecstatically much
09:02 raphink    yes you did quite a lot dholbach
09:02 dholbach   i don't think it's a web interface problem
09:02 dholbach   i think it's more a problem of raising awareness of packages
09:02 raphink    dholbach: well very often new packages are reviewed first
09:02 dholbach   if somebody asks me to review something, then i find the time to do it
09:03 raphink    and packages that have already been approved once may wait weeks to be approved by another MOTU
09:03 raphink    although they're ready to go
09:03 siretart   i also think it rather a problem that motus are either not aware of the ongrowing list of packages or general overload of motus
09:03 slomo_     and we need more motus with kde knowledge...
09:03 siretart   jepp
09:03 dholbach   but see this usecase: somebody uploads a package, it takes 2 weeks until somebody looks, then it takes 2 weeks to get it updated again - imho that's a problem of communication
09:03 siretart   I had a look at skin before
09:03 sistpoty   hm... for the web interface, I guess that's my fault, because I still haven't written one more line of that revu2 code i promised to write until last week :(
09:04 crimsun    that seems to be a manpower issue, though
09:04 dholbach   crimsun: ++
09:04 raphink    dholbach: from my short experience, packages are fixed much faster when emails are sent to packagers. REVU could do that automatically.
09:04 LaserJock  is there a way to delegate reviewing (not necessarily advocating) more to responsible MOTUWannabes ?
09:04 dholbach   and communication... maybe we need a bot in #ubuntu-motu
09:04 siretart   I think it is fine. not the prettiest package I've seen, but looks okay. But I don't have much KDE experience either
09:04 Riddell    if revu sent out e-mails that would help a lot I think
09:05 siretart   raphink: we (sistpoty and me currently) are working on that
=== McFergus [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:05 sistpoty   dholbach, raphink: irc-bot for revu2 and emails are planned... but again, my fault for being lazy
09:05 dholbach   "new package 123 uploaded - [link] " - "new comment on 234 [link] "
09:05 dholbach   sistpoty: don't beat yourself up
09:05 dholbach   sistpoty: you were quite active otherwise and we're all grateful for that
09:05 raphink    :)
09:06 dholbach   how complicated would it be to write a dirty hack to send out mails?
09:06 sistpoty   hehe dholbach... but I finally want to get to work to it :)
09:06 siretart   dholbach: I have another problem with that
09:06 dholbach   maybe to a new mailing list, a small program, reading the database logs?
09:06 raphink    sistpoty: :)
09:06 \sh        dholbach: no new mailinglist please :)
09:06 siretart   dholbach: we would either have to implement a blacklist or whitelist whom to mail
09:06 sistpoty   dholbach: easy... at least to ubuntu-motu ml
09:06 siretart   dholbach: and an interface to that list
09:06 dholbach   any list
=== felipe_ [] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"]
09:07 \sh        siretart: can you sort the list for advocates?
09:07 siretart   because we certainly don't want to spam innocent maintainers
09:07 raphink    yes
09:07 \sh        siretart: so that new packages are shown on the top and not in the middle of the list? or at the end?
09:07 slomo_     what about spamming the one who signed the upload?
09:07 raphink    if Debian maintainers are spammed with REVU stuff they won't like it for sure
09:07 crimsun    out of curiosity, could we colour-code the status of packages? I understand we already have a Comments/Advocate column
09:07 siretart   revu just checks signatures. not if the email is correct
09:08 siretart   this would be more easy when we actually authenticate and use launchpad for that
09:08 siretart   but thats revu2, and the reason why there is no email notification right now
09:08 dholbach   a quick and dirty solution would suffice for now, wouldn it?  sending mails to revu@tauware,de? :)
09:08 sistpoty   siretart: why not sending a mail to motu-reviewers list, with a certain subject so that everyone on the list can filter it, if he doesn't want it... the uploader wouldn't get a mail (yet)
09:08 raphink    crimsun: I'd say we'd need some kinds of levels for packages aswell, rather than just NEW, WORKED ON and OK
09:08 \sh        raphink: revu2
09:08 siretart   sistpoty: hey, thats an easy hack I didn't think of
09:08 raphink    \sh: great :)
09:08 dholbach   we should prioritize our requirements
09:08 crimsun    I think one thing that makes the revu page kinda daunting is the extremely long list; colour-coding would help at a quick ovreview
09:08 LaserJock  maybe we should have a REVU2 Love Day ;-)
09:09 crimsun    overview^
09:09 raphink    LaserJock: ++
09:09 sistpoty   siretart: still s.o. who reviews a packge should still ping/mail the uploader (by hand)
09:09 raphink    crimsun: ++
09:09 siretart   sistpoty: yepp. The email should contain both submitter and reviewer
09:09 \sh        LaserJock: did you ever read siretarts and ajmitchs revu2 spec crack? it's awesome...:) I needed at least 2 nights to understand it :)
09:09 siretart   lol
09:09 dholbach   :)
09:10 ajmitch    heh
09:10 siretart   \sh: reordering of new and old crack, that sounds reasonable
09:10 LaserJock  \sh: skimmed it
09:10 \sh        well..actually it was the diagram
09:10 siretart   sistpoty: do you think you could adjust the query?
09:10 ajmitch    \sh: mostly siretart & sistpoty
=== JanC [n=janc@lugwv/member/JanC] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:10 sistpoty   siretart: I can adjust every query ;)
09:10 \sh        ajmitch: you helped siretart a lot at ubz :)
09:10 ajmitch    sure
=== tseng [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:10 ajmitch    now I get to help coding it
09:10 slomo_     sistpoty: you're the sql god ;)
09:11 \sh        ajmitch: you see..and I'll take you merges ,)
09:11 slomo_     hi tseng :)
09:11 siretart   sistpoty: that would be great
=== tseng waves
09:11 siretart   sistpoty: I think there are no uncommited changes left in /srv/revu1
09:11 raphink    hi tseng
09:11 sistpoty   siretart: ok... will check out a local copy
=== lucas [n=lucas@] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:11 siretart   no there isn't
09:11 dholbach   what is the current agreement for the quick and dirty solution, which will all our lives better?
09:11 siretart   so I can probably just update from head
09:12 ajmitch    hello tseng
09:12 ajmitch    I think most people will have a short break in the next week or so
09:12 siretart   dholbach: I'll create a mailing list, and make revu send emails for every comment there
09:12 \sh        dholbach: I think sorting the packages for "packages with one advocates on top of the list"
09:12 ajmitch    so we'll get stuck into things in january
09:12 raphink    hopefully ajmitch
09:12 siretart   I think that could serve as an interim solution
09:12 dholbach   siretart: that's awesome
09:12 ajmitch    siretart: good idea
09:12 sistpoty   siretart: can't we reuse motu-reviewers ml?
09:12 dholbach   announce it on ubuntu-motu@ please
09:13 siretart   dholbach: after it is implemented, I'll announce it
09:13 siretart   sistpoty: thats an option, too
=== ajmitch will be 'working' fulltime on ubuntu stuff in jan/feb, since I'll be jobless ;)
09:13 siretart   sistpoty: but I'm not sure if thats a good idea
09:13 dholbach   sistpoty: maybe the guys uploading a package will only want to know about revu?
09:13 siretart   what do the others think?
09:13 ajmitch    \sh: so you & I can rock the world
09:13 raphink    there are lost of mailing lists, reusing motu-reviewers might be easier
09:13 \sh        ajmitch: welcome on board :)
=== dholbach likes it separatedly, but can live with it
09:14 \sh        ajmitch: ah no...I have to find a job very fast..if not..I can shutdown my IT center here
=== raphink is jobless too, at least till january
09:14 ajmitch    \sh: hehe
09:14 ajmitch    \sh: I've got enough for a couple of months, and a few potential jobs to look at
09:14 \sh        ajmitch: no joke...serious
09:14 ajmitch    they're mostly in .au though
09:14 sistpoty   well it has to do with reviewing, so my idea... but I'm still really undecided about which ml to use
09:14 siretart   raphink: since you raised the revu question: what would you prefer?
09:15 slomo_     hmm
09:15 slomo_     another idea for revu
09:15 siretart   raphink: a separate announce list or on the motu-reviewers mailling list?
09:15 ajmitch    we could get a lot of mails if all debdiffs & all REVU package comments go there
09:15 crimsun    e-mail would be good, but seriously using a more cogent colour scheme (via a style sheet?) would help as well.
09:15 slomo_     let people "subscribe" to revu or single uploads
09:15 ajmitch    slomo_: revu2
09:15 slomo_     ok
09:15 raphink    doens't matter to me since I'm not sucribed to motu-reviewers yet, but since it's directly related I'd go for only one ML
09:15 ajmitch    slomo_: I don't think the framework is there for individual subscription in revu1
09:15 siretart   slomo_: if you want to implement it, sure ;)
09:16 sistpoty   crimsun: revu1 already uses css... any help with it would be very much welcome ;)
09:16 ajmitch    siretart: I think we'll try & get revu2 workable by mid-late jan
09:16 LaserJock  well, how far off is REVU2 do you think?
09:16 slomo_     siretart: i _want_... but i can't when nobody invents the 72hour day soon :(
09:16 siretart   slomo_: seriously, I also think this is more easy to implement in the new codebase
09:16 siretart   slomo_: same here
09:16 dholbach   i wouldn't like it on motureviewers, since those bugs all go to universe-bugs@ atm
09:16 dholbach   and that'd make the list even more insane
09:16 siretart   LaserJock: unfortunatly, I don't think it will go live before january, unless we get lots of more volunteers who suddenly start hacking
09:17 ajmitch    siretart: me! me!
09:17 raphink    good point then dholbach
09:17 siretart   ajmitch: :)
09:17 LaserJock  siretart: what does it take to work on it?
09:17 ajmitch    siretart: but I won't start hacking it until jan 1st ;)
09:17 siretart   LaserJock: currently an svn client, and a bit of python knowledge
09:17 sistpoty   dholbach: motu-reviewers ml go to universe-bugs?
09:17 ajmitch    LaserJock: a good understanding of the spec, and of python, and various other tools
09:17 dholbach   sistpoty: yes
09:17 \sh        python , mod_python , and a lot of debian foo bar knowledge :) and eat a bit of siretarts crazy brain ;)
=== ajmitch thinks all REVU2 contributors must read through the spec
09:17 ajmitch    \sh: I've already done the brain thing
09:18 \sh        hehhe
09:18 siretart   yes. it is essential to understand the workflow
09:18 sistpoty   dholbach: strange... why do we have a separate ml then? (motu-reviewers on tauware)
09:18 siretart   ok, then lets use the same list
09:18 dholbach   ?
09:18 siretart   because revu and reviewing should be handled with equal priority, I think
09:18 LaserJock  hmm, I would be interested. I don't know if I could help much
09:18 dholbach   siretart: but those are not universe-bugs@
=== ajmitch was reading through his zope3 book last night, email notification of changes is quite trivial there ;)
09:19 sistpoty   dholbach: at least that's a ml I'm subscribed to... and some bugs from malone with reviewing go there... but I'm not quite sure bout that *g*
=== raphink would help if he knew python
09:19 slomo_     raphink: it's easy to learn :)
09:19 siretart   dholbach: ah, I remeber, we had some mailling list confusion
09:19 ajmitch    dholbach: bugs assigned to motureviewers go to the reviewers mailing list..
09:19 \sh        raphink: python is one language you have to learn :) it's the ubuntu language :)
09:19 siretart   dholbach: no, I don't want them to show up on universe-bugs, too
09:19 dholbach   siretart: yes, and i still have to approve those posts
09:19 sistpoty   ah, ajmitch... thx for clarification
09:20 raphink    \sh: then I shall
09:20 siretart   dholbach: fuck, then I forgot to take you off, sorry
09:20 siretart   sistpoty: we need to talk! *g*
09:20 sistpoty   siretart: sure :)
09:20 siretart   query, later, okay?
09:20 sistpoty   ok
09:20 siretart   good
=== dholbach -> phone, sorry
09:20 siretart   ok.
09:20 siretart   summary: TODO: make revu mail comments to motu-reviewers
=== ajmitch wonders if we'll have another mailing list just for revu2 devel :)
09:21 siretart   FIX mailinglist madnes
09:21 siretart   s
09:21 sistpoty   siretart: and uploads?
09:21 LaserJock  can anybody check out the revu svn repo?
09:21 siretart   sistpoty: thats an intersting point, we didn't discuss this yet
09:21 ajmitch    LaserJock: currently no
09:21 \sh        one mailinglist for \sh only name
09:21 siretart   shall every upload be announced too?
09:21 ajmitch    siretart: yes
09:21 ajmitch    siretart: well each new package
09:21 siretart   I mean, I already get an email for every upload, but the output is not very pretty
09:22 ajmitch    can you differentiate between a new package & an update to it on revu?
09:22 sistpoty   siretart: I want that too... at least for me ;)
=== ajmitch isn't sure if we want every change on the list
09:22 siretart   ajmitch: yes, I think I can
09:22 ajmitch    siretart: oh, we'll do all this with rss in revu2 ;)
09:22 ajmitch    so someone can subscribe to what they want
09:23 raphink    oh that's nice :)
09:23 sistpoty   and mail.. I want lot's of mail from revu2 :)
09:23 ajmitch    sistpoty: generic notification wouldn't be hard if it's done right
=== raphink thinks about getting REVU infos in akregator :)
09:23 siretart   ajmitch: I would hack it into revu1/scripts/
09:23 sistpoty   ajmitch: cool
09:24 ajmitch    I'll draw up a list of what I'll try & work on
09:24 siretart   ajmitch: there I have to register the new package to the database anyway, so I can use the check there
09:24 sistpoty   siretart: I'll care for comments
09:24 siretart   sistpoty: that would be awesome, thanks
09:24 ajmitch    in between all the merge bugs, etc
09:24 sistpoty   well, I'll leave it to you to fix the surely b0rked mail-cmd ;)
09:24 siretart   sistpoty: both mail for comments and new packages or just comments?
09:24 ajmitch    before \sh takes away all my bugs from me
09:25 sistpoty   siretart: I'd like to do comments at first... I guess you have better knowledge of incoming-processing?
09:25 \sh        ajmitch: you will have at least until next week :) when i'm better I'll rock again...
=== doko [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:25 siretart   sistpoty: that isn't that sophisticated, just have a look at, thats all
09:25 ajmitch    \sh: I'll be offline for a week by then
09:25 sistpoty   siretart: ok, I'll care for that too ;)
09:25 siretart   thanks!
09:26 sistpoty   np siretart
09:26 siretart   ok
09:26 \sh        ajmitch: well...I have to work hard...just before I'm offline forever ;)
09:26 siretart   then we have settled the revu business for now
09:26 sistpoty   ok, before we get too indepth into revu discussion... are there other points we want to discuss?
09:26 siretart   right, that was what I was going to ask
09:26 raphink    :)
09:26 siretart   what's left to discuss for now?
09:26 ajmitch    sistpoty: considering this is an unannounced impromptu meeting
09:27 raphink    sistpoty ate a bit of siretart's brain, too it seems
09:27 \sh        everybody who has open merge bugs..syncs, debdiffs..please send me the bug numbers...i'll test and upload thx
09:27 LaserJock  I just wanted to comment that I would like to get some feedback from my -motu email about the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
09:27 siretart   \sh: could you please mail this to our mailing list?
09:27 siretart   this request, that is
09:27 \sh        means all people without upload rights...
09:27 \sh        siretart: sure
09:27 ajmitch    \sh: let me work on the ones I have assigned to me ;)
09:27 ajmitch    there's enough for me to break there
09:27 sistpoty   \sh: and please also note that everybody should look, if there are assigned bugs for him which he didn't request
09:27 crimsun    LaserJock: sure, url? (I have a backlog of over 1000 e-mails, so a url is handier atm)
09:28 \sh        ajmitch: you do the zope stuff...I don't touch them :)
09:28 ajmitch    \sh: yeah, there's enough of a tangled mess there
09:28 LaserJock  crimsun: I would like feedback on
09:29 siretart   LaserJock: looks nice! really!
09:30 siretart   LaserJock: how is it developed? docbook and svn?
09:30 ajmitch    LaserJock: you start off the packaging from scratch with something like what I did?
09:30 siretart   or just wiki?
09:30 sistpoty   LaserJock: rocks, as motu's keep saying ;)
09:30 LaserJock  it is part of the doc team I am now a member
09:30 LaserJock  ajmitch: yep
09:31 siretart   anything else?
09:31 LaserJock  I started off with what Unfgiven did (currently on but have decided to redo from the beginning
09:31 siretart   LaserJock: lets move that discussion to #ubuntu-motu, okay?
09:31 LaserJock  yes please
09:31 siretart   ok
09:32 sistpoty   if there is nothing else, I think it might be good to at least schedule another motu-meeting...
09:32 ajmitch    unofficial motu meeting over?
09:32 siretart   I think so
09:32 siretart   does anyone have some time to write a summary about this meeting?
09:32 ajmitch    sistpoty: since this one wasn't really scheduled, and just happened on top of the media meeting
09:33 sistpoty   ajmitch: yes, but there wasn't a motu-meeting for a long time... and I guess it would be good to have a real motu-meeting in the near future (1/2 weeks from now)?
09:33 siretart   we mainly discussed 3 points: revu sending emails, \sh request of bugnumbers and LaserJock PackagingGuide outline
09:33 siretart   anyone?
09:33 ajmitch    sistpoty: january, please
09:33 sistpoty   ajmitch: yes, certainly a better choice ;)
09:33 ajmitch    too many people might be away otherwise
09:34 siretart   ok. then I'll do that
=== ajmitch will be gone for a week :)
09:34 sistpoty   thx siretart
09:34 raphink    :)
09:34 siretart   ok. Thanks for your attendance, it was a great meeting!
09:34 siretart   meeting over!
09:34 dholbach   thanks siretart
09:34 siretart   puh
09:34 ajmitch    ok
09:34 siretart   now lets go to work
=== raphink runs all around and goes to play out
09:35 sistpoty   hehe
09:35 ajmitch    discuss next meeting time on list

MeetingLogs/MOTU_2005-12-15 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:27:23 by localhost)