NewUserNetwork_2006-06-08
07:00 jenda OK 07:00 jenda so... what's the agneda? 07:00 gnomefreak lol 07:00 jenda a-jenda 07:01 jenda And where the hell is nalioth and robotgeek... 07:01 gnomefreak we need ideas to bring back nun and what we can do to imporove it 07:01 gnomefreak nalmight be sleeping/working 07:01 lastnode yeah i agree 07:01 lastnode so are we <meetup> ? 07:01 kingspawn Is it supposed to be done in the nun-channel? Like, advicing people that want mentoring to go in there? 07:01 gnomefreak lastnode: yep lets do this 07:01 kingspawn Or in the regular #ubuntu-channel? 07:01 lastnode kingspawn, in #ubuntu really 07:01 lastnode #ubuntu-nun is for us to coordinate 07:01 kingspawn Hm, okay. 07:02 pppoe_dude MAke an attreactive website 07:02 lastnode pppoe_dude, we already have a website/wiki 07:02 jenda why an attractive website? 07:02 gnomefreak kingspawn: i talked to naloith about that and he brings them into an offtoic channel either ubuntu or kubuntu but i would like a place (maybe #ubuntu-nun) due to less people 07:02 jenda What we need first is a mission statement. 07:02 pppoe_dude coz then more people will think it's user friendly, etc. 07:02 kingspawn gnomefreak: Yeah, me too. #ubuntu is too crowded for indepth mentoring 07:02 kingspawn gnomefreak: Nowadays it is more suited for oneline-answers 07:03 kingspawn (imho) 07:03 gnomefreak same with offtopic channels for me atleast 07:03 jenda Is the mission the creation of #ubuntu-sidechannels for more personal handling of newbies? 07:03 jenda and only that? 07:03 pppoe_dude maybe put all the standard stuff like a few forums and an irc channel 07:03 lastnode jenda, that's part of it, i guess 07:03 lastnode i dont do forums, so it'll be just irc for me 07:03 kingspawn I think that is a good idea, really. 07:03 kingspawn Conversation-style help in #ubuntu is impossible 07:03 hybrid lastnode: +1 07:03 lastnode hybrid, never been anything but a waste of time 07:03 lastnode at least on irc, you can kickban the flamers 07:03 jenda indeed, it's mostly the UBunu IRC team anyway... ) 07:04 hybrid lastnode: i have a bad history with ubuntuforums and some of the leaders 07:04 gnomefreak jenda: im more of an irc users than forums. forums have a way of going wayyy too off-subject/help 07:04 lastnode Ubuntu-NUN should be a group of users willing to answer the same questions over, and over, and over agian 07:04 jenda hybrid: please. not now. 07:04 lastnode preferebly without too many links 07:04 lastnode and RTFMS 07:04 jenda gnomefreak: we are all. 07:04 lastnode as polite as we say it, sometimes we're just RTFMing 07:04 gnomefreak lastnode: thats what it was at one point 07:04 lastnode without saying the word 07:04 hybrid jenda: i was just stating my reason not trying to start a flamewar 07:04 lastnode it's like === jenda would cut teh forums away from the subject now. 07:05 kermitX_ website/wiki/whatever needs a good intro/primer into IRC for these new users. 07:05 lastnode you have to have the patience to answer "Guys, what's a linix?" 07:05 kingspawn Well, sometimes a little reading will make it clearer for the questioneer, imho. 07:05 gnomefreak im making note to take to mez to see if we cant do something either re do the team (if people are not intersted) take them off? 07:05 lastnode kingspawn, yeah, there's a fine line there, that we have to be able to draw 07:06 kingspawn lastnode: Sure, sure, I'm all for helping. I'm actually quite helpful at times :) 07:06 jenda sending them off to read is usually hard for them. 07:06 kermitX_ ;) 07:06 lastnode in some cases it IS useful though 07:06 jenda but that's not the point of the meeting, eh? 07:06 gnomefreak has anyone looked ar the restricted wiki lately? tell me a new users can understand that now 07:06 lastnode we dont want to encourage dumb users 07:06 jenda So, we need side-channels. 07:06 lastnode we want to help them grow 07:06 jenda What's next? 07:06 lastnode but at their one speed 07:07 lastnode jenda, we _have_ side channels 07:07 lastnode that was already decided 07:07 lastnode we didnt need a meeting for that :) 07:07 gnomefreak lastnode: we dont yet 07:07 lastnode yeah, what's next 07:07 jenda we do? For this specific reason? 07:07 kingspawn What's next is actually an efficient way of tunneling the ones that need to go there there 07:07 kingspawn (there there...) 07:07 jenda We don't - but we should. 07:07 lastnode jenda, i dont think we need for this specific reason 07:07 jenda lastnode: I'm afraid we do -that's the whole point. 07:07 lastnode wait, i mean #ubuntu-nun is eniugh, i reckon 07:07 lastnode *enough 07:07 lastnode there is a flipside though 07:08 jenda It is for coordination, not for tutoring. 07:08 lastnode inviting a user in to #ubuntu-whatever is good 07:08 lastnode as long as you can finish what you started 07:08 lastnode if you have to afk 07:08 kingspawn Can't we have something like #ubuntu-nun-coord for the coordination? 07:08 lastnode and no one else is around 07:08 jenda hmm 07:08 kingspawn I can't, for the sake of my sanity, do things like this in #ubuntu 07:08 lastnode then he/she is in the lurch 07:08 jenda no, we need #ubuntu-coupe 07:08 lastnode at least with #ubuntu, there's always someone else there 07:08 gnomefreak kingspawn: that will get messy for the nun memebers that dont know 07:08 lastnode i dont think we need a special channel to coord 07:09 lastnode all of us are in -offtopic 07:09 jenda and once that is overcrowded #ubuntu-saloon 07:09 jenda etc ;) 07:09 kingspawn gnomefreak: Well, the wiki needs to reflect the changes, I would guess 07:09 pppoe_dude lol 07:09 gnomefreak kingspawn: it will 07:09 kingspawn gnomefreak: If they are active, they will find out 07:09 pppoe_dude how about #ubuntu-beginners (for the main channel - to keep it simple) 07:09 gnomefreak i would like to find out who is and who is not active ont he member list 07:09 lastnode btw, is the IRCteam ok with this? 07:09 jenda pppoe_dude: +1 07:09 gnomefreak +1 07:09 pppoe_dude and #ubuntu-nun for discussions 07:09 jenda gnomefreak is the IRC team here. 07:09 lastnode in the end, keeping the peace is going to be their job 07:09 jenda :) 07:10 lastnode oh ok :) 07:10 gnomefreak jenda: what irc team? the ops? 07:10 lastnode gnomefreak, we will have teh opxors in there? 07:10 jenda Seveas mainly. 07:10 lastnode cool 07:10 gnomefreak lastnode: yes we will 07:10 jenda of course. 07:10 lastnode im just saying, do we need another channel to coord 07:10 jenda lastnode: if we don't we can abandon it later. 07:10 lastnode ive seen a maximum of 5 people in #ubuntu-nun anyway 07:10 gnomefreak jenda: ping him hes prolly working on something 07:10 lastnode (except now ;-)) 07:10 jenda I just did, gnomefreak 07:10 pppoe_dude then setup a team to cover the channels 24/7 07:10 jenda :) 07:11 kingspawn lastnode: Heh, the idea is to increase the pressure, innit? 07:11 lastnode how about we do this? we _start_ inviting people in to -nun 07:11 lastnode i mean users 07:11 Seveas dragging people away from #ubuntu is not-done 07:11 lastnode and if we get crowded 07:11 jenda pppoe_dude: that should be the people who help in #ubuntu the most. 07:11 Seveas sending invites definitely not 07:11 jenda Seveas: it's not? 07:11 Seveas no === jenda stops in his tracks... 07:11 kermitX_ specifically invite beginners to #ubuntu-beginners or whatever in the docs, user guide, wiki, etc. 07:11 kingspawn So all help should be given in #ubuntu? 07:11 gnomefreak Seveas: we are not dragging it was meant for like when me or naloith or whoever walk users through compiling === lastnode _did_ ask what the irc team thinks of it === pppoe_dude will be back in 2 minutes 07:12 Seveas gnomefreak, private messages are ok for that too but I see your point 07:12 kermitX_ #ubuntu is too cluttered to have more than a 2 line conversation with someone. 07:12 kingspawn Yeah. I'm all up for joining a team to help out more people 07:12 kermitX_ beginners will get frustrated with all the irrelevent chatter. 07:12 kingspawn But not in #ubuntu. 07:13 kingspawn (If text is more than one line, that is) 07:13 gnomefreak kermitX_: thats why most of us invite users to an -offtopic channel to walk them through 07:13 Spec How do you redirect beginners to #ubuntu-beginners? 07:13 gnomefreak Spec: you cant 07:13 Spec social engineering? 07:13 dsas gnomefreak: RestrictedFormats will be reworked a little soon (shockwave and java are planned to be put in their own wiki pages iirc) 07:13 kingspawn Yeah. 07:14 gnomefreak it would be more like <user> join me in #blah blah-blah if you want help with this more in depth 07:14 Spec I think people who IRC from the livecd/install should be redirected to #ubuntu-install 07:14 pppoe_dude Spec, in the topic 07:14 gnomefreak dsas: ty 07:14 Spec who reads the topic? === gnomefreak read topics 07:14 kingspawn Not the beginners. 07:14 kingspawn Heh. === highvoltage too 07:14 Spec i mean, yeah, we do 07:14 Seveas putting things in topic == dragging away 07:14 Spec but not beginners === hybrid reads it 07:14 jenda Spec: I disagree. LiveCD is too general. 07:14 Seveas I don't think there's a need for a separate fixed channel 07:15 jenda Anyway - it has always been done. Whenever you need to guide someone through, you need another channel. 07:15 lastnode Spec, splitting up channels means you hae to find people who are willing to spawn themselves across all of them 07:15 Seveas I suggest: "Join #yournickname to get in-depth help" 07:15 Seveas just temporary join quiet channels 07:15 gnomefreak i can go with that 07:15 kermitX_ preconfigure some of the #ubuntu-xxxx channels in the irc clients in the repos? 07:15 jenda Seveas: that does make some sense. 07:15 lastnode yeah that sounds alright 07:15 Seveas it even makes people feel special 07:15 lastnode :) 07:15 gnomefreak ;) 07:15 Seveas "Hi lastnode come to #lastnode and I'll help" 07:15 Seveas but don't do that for all questions 07:15 kingspawn I've got three real life friends that use ubuntu, and they all detest #ubuntu, haha. 07:16 lastnode Seveas, you liar! #lastnode is teh empty! 07:16 gnomefreak lmao 07:16 Seveas lastnode, : 07:16 Seveas kingspawn, heh #ubuntu is quite messy at times 07:16 lastnode kingspawn, it's not perfect at times, but certainly one of the best channels ive seen 07:16 Seveas I wish I had some more time for it 07:16 Spec and very fast paced 07:16 lastnode in terms of promptness 07:16 gnomefreak the one thing that worried me was #ubuntu is getting very big 07:16 Spec only because dapper was released 07:16 gnomefreak new users couldnt keep up with 500 people now theres 900+ at all tiomes 07:16 lastnode bigger than #gentoo? === ompaul [n=ompaul@ubuntu/member/ompaul] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 07:17 lastnode nope 07:17 lastnode then again, vastly diff audiences 07:17 Seveas lastnode, we're pretty close to #gentoo now 07:17 Seveas during release we were bigger 07:17 lastnode Seveas, yeah, i noticed :) 07:17 lastnode oh right, didnt notice that 07:17 lastnode :) 07:17 Spec One thing I'd like to bring up would be standardization on us people getting information from them, there has to be a better way than pastebin/flood.... 07:18 hybrid #gentoo is also older 07:18 ompaul Spec, #flood is useless 07:18 kingspawn Hm, so this nun-thing is going to require joining a different channel each time I help someone out? 07:18 kingspawn That is kind of set in stone now? 07:18 Seveas kingspawn, no it won't 07:18 Spec ompaul: #ubuntu-flood 07:18 Spec but still, the concept of a flood channel is silly 07:18 kermitX_ Spec, topic="troll magnet" 07:18 Seveas Spec, yeah, pastebin is much better 07:19 ompaul Spec, flooding channels are useless, they scoll by too fast 07:19 kingspawn Seveas: Oh? I misunderstand, then. Heh. I thought it was /j #nameofusertohelp, and then go at it. 07:19 lastnode guys, i think what Seveas is tring to beat here is recursion. for example, what happens when #ubuntu-nun gets too crowded? do we spawn #ubuntu-nun-nun 07:19 lastnode i do see his point 07:19 Spec patebin is better, but it takes 10-15 minutes sometimes for a newbie to patebin 07:19 kingspawn patbin, hahah. 07:19 Seveas lastnode, indeed 07:19 kingspawn French pastebin 07:19 Seveas Spec, let them use webboard 07:19 lastnode hi user, please /j #ubuntu-nun-nun-nun-nn 07:19 kermitX_ need 1.2.3. step by step instructions on pastebin. 07:19 Spec webboard? === pppoe_dude back 07:19 Seveas Spec, apt-get install webboard 07:20 lastnode SUDO 07:20 billybennett whats wrong with a new dialog window? 07:20 lastnode you missed the sudo === lastnode shoots Seveas 07:20 lastnode zomg blasphemy! === mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o Seveas] by ChanServ === mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %*!*@unaffiliated/mahangu] by Seveas === mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-o Seveas] by ChanServ 07:20 Seveas HAH! === mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o Seveas] by ChanServ === mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-b %*!*@unaffiliated/mahangu] by Seveas === mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-o Seveas] by ChanServ 07:20 Spec hehe 07:20 lastnode :( 07:20 pppoe_dude i think that the channel crowdedness issue is no problem 07:20 lastnode sudo! 07:20 hybrid lol === lastnode runs and hides 07:20 pppoe_dude because their nicknames would be highlighted 07:20 lastnode pppoe_dude, you havent spent much time in #ubuntu, have you? 07:20 Spec it scrolls real fast 07:20 lastnode walk away for some caffeiene 07:20 lastnode and voila 07:20 pppoe_dude lastnode, i have 07:21 gnomefreak pppoe_dude: it can be when trying to walk someone through something (most of us can do it but the new users eh) 07:21 lastnode you miss it 07:21 kermitX_ how long does it take an irc newbie to include a nick in their messages? 07:21 gnomefreak ok lets start with wiki re0working everyone up with that? 07:21 lastnode kermitX_, esp one who doesnt know about tab completition 07:21 pppoe_dude kermitX_, they dont have to, but we do 07:21 Seveas kermitX_, weeks 07:21 kermitX_ lastnode, took me *forever* to figure that out! ;) 07:21 lastnode so, are we clear then? we just spwn #Seveas and take all our users there? :) 07:21 kingspawn gnomefreak: I'd like to know how this is going to work first, heh. 07:21 jenda Well, Seveas, perhaps adding the #username policy to IRC rules? 07:21 Spec lastnode: it seems so 07:21 Seveas lastnode, eep :/ 07:21 gnomefreak kingspawn: as in? 07:22 lastnode is that really policy? 07:22 Spec users might join #theirownnick and just wait for help though ... :-/ 07:22 Seveas jenda, no it's not policy 07:22 lastnode i mean if people wanted to /j #zomgitflies, whatever 07:22 lastnode ? 07:22 Seveas jenda, it's NuN advise for NuN helpers, not IRC policy 07:22 jenda OK === jenda wants to be a nun 07:22 pppoe_dude how about like 3 channels to spread traffic, #ubuntu-beginner-install #ubuntu-beginner-setup and #ubuntu-beginner-general 07:22 kingspawn gnomefreak: Well, like if it is going to take me joining new channels every five minutes, etc. 07:22 lastnode jenda, we should put this on the Nun wiki page i guess 07:22 Spec Why not just take it to PMs though? 07:22 jenda lastnode: check. 07:22 pppoe_dude and we'd direct them from a main channel 07:22 lastnode pppoe_dude, scroll up, we've been through this 07:23 gnomefreak lastnode: if i am going to help you i would make channel #lastnode and than as you to join it for help 07:23 jenda Spec: so that more people can help 07:23 lastnode pppoe_dude, we're _not_ doing that 07:23 pppoe_dude lastnode, ok 07:23 lastnode gnomefreak, yeah cool 07:23 Spec jenda: join me in #jenda to continue our discussion 07:23 Seveas pppoe_dude, splitting off many channels is a bad idea 07:23 Spec jenda: no one else except you and me will be there :p 07:23 Seveas even #ubuntu+1 took a while to grow 07:23 jenda * #jenda :You can't join that many channels :( 07:23 Seveas jenda, haha 07:23 lastnode that becomes a problem if a user with nick 'yourmom' joins 07:23 lastnode 0.o 07:23 gnomefreak if it comes down to it we will use nun 07:23 hybrid #ubuntu+1 <3 07:24 ompaul forget about the spread, lets think about some of our issues, some of this comes from our inability to articulate a set of questions that define users problems, and with some users while being willing to ask for help they ask in a way that is not condusive to getting a resolution 07:24 jenda Seveas: you're evil. I do'nt have +u because Ubuntu crashes too often :( 07:24 lastnode ompaul, i think we should invade iraq too! 07:24 lastnode :) 07:24 jenda ompaul: true. I blame that on nalioth not being here. 07:24 Spec I think if we join a #nick it'll be limiting the amount of help that new user could recieve 07:24 jenda :) 07:24 Seveas I'm on 27 channels on freenode now 07:24 highvoltage geepers 07:25 ompaul Seveas, you needed to say that on 6.6.6.6.6.6 07:25 lastnode Spec, this is purely for users who you _know_ you can help 07:25 Seveas lastnode, indeed === gnomefreak has seen 1 member of nun say he doesnt walk people through thier issues that pissed me off bad but im not stating anyones name on this so dont ask 07:25 jenda Seveas: I was on 29 before it crashed :( </OT> 07:25 pppoe_dude oh so the idea is to have like "teacher channels" where each helper will have his own channel? 07:25 kingspawn What I don't like about /j #nick is mainly two things: We must issue the same help even more often than with a sort of beginner-channel, 2) it will have me join new channels all the time, which doesn't float my boat 07:25 kermitX_ we don't all need to open new channels to help a beginner out one-on-one. a single #ubuntu-beginners should be more than adequate.. 07:25 gnomefreak we cant have that if your name is on mentors list or member list of nun 07:25 lastnode gnomefreak, if you're not stating names, why did you bring it up? it serves no purpose, and just arouses unnecessary curiosity. 07:25 gnomefreak lastnode: keep reading 07:26 Seveas kermitX_, the problem with #ubuntu-beginners is that lots of people will join it 07:26 Seveas nullifying the solution it gives 07:26 lastnode gnomefreak, still, it's better to be open about it. but i do get your point 07:26 jenda pppoe_dude: no... more like each student having a channel with several teachers... 07:26 kermitX_ Seveas, then we just find a little more obsecure name for it.. #ubuntu-nun-help 07:26 ompaul no 07:26 ompaul too long 07:26 Seveas kermitX_, name is irrelevant 07:26 pppoe_dude oh ic. i think its at least better the other way around 07:26 ompaul and trying to get someone to click on a channel name is hard word 07:27 ompaul s/word/work 07:27 pppoe_dude although it would be limiting help 07:27 jenda Nah - I think the channel problem is solved. 07:27 gnomefreak agreed 07:27 lastnode kermitX_, <lastnode> guys, i think what Seveas is tring to beat here is recursion. for example, what happens when #ubuntu-nun gets too crowded? do we spawn #ubuntu-nun-nun 07:27 kermitX_ lastnode, number them instead of nun-nun-nun-nun 07:27 lastnode yeah, we're through with the channel discussion? will someone update teh wiki? 07:28 kingspawn What became the conclusion? 07:28 gnomefreak thats why you make temp rooms like #lastnode 07:28 lastnode gnomefreak, yeah i know, i was trying to explain the reason for our decision to kermitX_ 07:28 gnomefreak i say either make a temp channel or use an offtopic channel 07:28 lastnode conclusion : we create #username channels when necessary 07:28 ompaul lets examine a case 07:28 lastnode and rooms? 07:28 lastnode channels! 07:29 jenda lastnode: I'll update the wiki. 07:29 lastnode jenda, cool 07:29 kermitX_ so everybody ends up with their own personal help channel. people would be able to find you again for follow up. i suppose that'll work. 07:29 ompaul #nun-ompaul 07:30 gnomefreak hmmmmmm 07:30 ompaul don't even go there for joking but 07:30 gnomefreak lol 07:30 jenda Wait - the channels are named after the n00b, not the mentor, nein? 07:30 ompaul so the problem here is that I create that, if I ask a user to go there 07:31 gnomefreak 30 other follow thinking they are gonna get help 07:31 jenda gnomefreak: I doubt it. 07:31 kermitX_ jenda, isn't rule #1 don't call the beginners 'n00b' ? ;) 07:31 ompaul and you end up in a row with them over the help they are giving 07:31 gnomefreak jenda: i would go with mentor on that that way it stays open 07:31 jenda Besides, the channel will have the persons nam... 07:31 jenda OK 07:31 gnomefreak kermitX_: yes ;) 07:31 jenda kermitX_: not in here ;) But sure. 07:31 lastnode kermitX_, dont call them n00b to their faces! :p 07:31 gnomefreak never 07:32 jenda never === jenda whistles innocently === lastnode gets ready for an attack 07:32 Spec #nun-<helper> sounds better 07:32 kermitX_ if a room is created using the ahem, n00b's name, they may expect to find future help there... 07:32 ompaul there is a problem there, if we have 20 mentors and all the mentors there and they all join each others channels to help/learn then there is a failure 07:32 ompaul we run out of channels we can be useful in === Flik [n=Flik@d154-5-134-98.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 07:33 ompaul I have an idea, its short and simple 07:33 Spec Maybe we should specialize 07:33 ompaul no === gnomefreak trying to cut down on some channels im in lol 07:33 lastnode Spec, that aint ever gonna work. im a jack of all trades, specialist in none 07:33 jenda gnomefreak: you'll just add one ;) 07:33 kingspawn For each user. 07:33 gnomefreak jenda: yep :) but i can handle it 07:33 lastnode ompaul, idea? 07:34 jenda I could, if gdm stopped crashing... but no solutions as yet. 07:34 ompaul thank you 07:34 kingspawn Let 07:34 kingspawn Eh. 07:34 gnomefreak jenda: we need to get up wityh naloith i think see if we cant weed out some of the un-active members 07:34 kingspawn Let's hear it, ompaul 07:34 ompaul the idea is to have channels off #ubuntu-nun #ubuntu-nun-1 2 and 3 07:34 ompaul we need to own them 07:35 gnomefreak than we can set "channels/rules for channels" stuff like that 07:35 ompaul yes 07:35 ompaul they are like surgeries 07:35 Spec painful and take a long time to recover from? 07:35 ompaul you can go into any of them once you are directed there 07:35 ompaul Spec, please === gnomefreak already tried emailing mez that failed (hes a dev iirc so i see why) 07:35 jenda what about #ubuntu-nun-<mentor>? 07:35 kingspawn ompaul: I agree one hundred percent. 07:35 lastnode guys, shall we let the man speak? 07:35 gnomefreak too long 07:35 ompaul jenda, no 07:35 jenda ok 07:36 hybrid jenda: i like #nun-<mentor> 07:36 jenda but we don't own #nun-* 07:36 ompaul hang on a second 07:36 lastnode urgh 07:36 gnomefreak jenda: #unu-jenda 07:36 gnomefreak s/unu/nun 07:36 dsas Mez is practically impossible to to contact in my experience. I think I read on his blog he's 1000s of emails behind. 07:36 hybrid jenda: we will only need to own #nun and #nun-* comes with it 07:36 kingspawn Anyone considered the fact that if we have channels that hold more than one mentor, it doesnt hit the user so hard if you are suddenly called away from the keyboard? 07:37 jenda hybrid: sure. In that case, shall we let Seveas register #nun? 07:37 jenda or not? 07:37 gnomefreak dsas: any other way you know to contact him? or should we talk to naloith on this? 07:37 Seveas jenda, ubuntu channels should start with #ubuntu- 07:37 pppoe_dude #ubuntu-beginners 07:37 pppoe_dude imo === kermitX_ thinks a couple extra #ubuntu- channels would help a bit with the volume in #ubuntu 07:38 jenda Seveas: taht's what I suggested... 07:38 dsas gnomefreak: No idea, I remember trying to contact him several times via email and never getting a reply, never saw him on IRC either. 07:38 jenda Umm... i think we already discussed #ubuntu-beginners. 07:39 kermitX_ jenda, that could be our 'home base' channel... 07:39 lastnode defragging #ubuntu is not gonna work imho 07:39 gnomefreak ok why not do this use #ubuntu-nun for helping people that will take a while (always start in #ubuntuor #ubuntu+1 if you can) and we will always have info in topic for nun members 07:39 jenda kermitX_: that's #ubuntu-nun 07:39 lastnode it's gonna send bucketloads of users in to the new chans 07:39 gnomefreak dsas: me neither 07:39 lastnode with not nearly as many support guys 07:39 dsas I have no idea about IRC, but can you make an IRC channel randomly forward to other channels, so upon joining #ubuntu you get sent on a round robin to #ubuntu-helpX 07:39 kermitX_ jenda, primary support channel... 07:39 hybrid ubuntutor 07:39 Seveas dsas, no 07:39 jenda kermitX_: that's ubuntu. We've discussed that. 07:39 kingspawn dsas, Can't be done. 07:40 ompaul folks I want to put out a full idea, so if you let me do it in one block you will see a reasonable suggestion, and then you can think ohh that is bad because or it is good because, first off I am opposed to names because it is not in the spirit of community, second off, it leads to toooooo many channels, if there was #ubuntu-nun1 #ubuntu-nun2 #ubuntu-nun3 they are in essence a temp channel - the person goes there and gets the issue resolved 07:40 ompaul it is inhabitied by several mentors, (Quality Assurance) and then the user is removed when the issue is sorted the only people left in the channel are the mentors, is that too bizarre? 07:40 jenda and wouldn't solve a thing. === gnomefreak brb needed 07:40 ompaul btw that could be #ubuntu1 or #ubuntu2 also 07:40 ompaul but they are a constant 07:40 kingspawn ompaul speaks with a rational voice, imho. 07:40 kermitX_ ompaul, not to be confused with #ubuntu+1, #ubuntu+2 07:40 kingspawn When the help is done, they can politely be asked to go back to #ubuntu for other questions 07:41 lastnode kermitX_, #ubuntu+2 ? 07:41 lastnode :) 07:41 kingspawn (mind, politely) 07:41 ompaul kermitX_, #ubuntu-A === robotgeek [i=venkat@ubuntu/member/robotgeek] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 07:41 ompaul I really don't care about the name, internalise the idea 07:41 pppoe_dude idea is good 07:41 dsas will people politely go back to #ubuntu, or will they go back to where they got help last time? 07:41 ompaul in saying that I do care about the name up to the point where people use their own names - we need to be able to sit there 07:42 ompaul dsas no invite no voice 07:42 ompaul sorry I forgot to suggest that 07:42 jenda dsas: people aren't completely dumb - whereever they go they will 1) get help 2) be sent elsewhere 3) find nothing and go to #ubuntu 07:43 lastnode jenda, i think all of us in here know that sometimes, people _can_ be completely dumb 07:43 ompaul they are invite channels nun peeps are voiced are as invited users then they loose their voice so there can be "and another thing" unless it get invited a second time 07:43 hybrid what about if not invited they are forwarded back to #ubuntu? === nalioth [n=nalioth@ubuntu/member/pdpc.bronze.nalioth] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 07:43 ompaul hybrid, messy 07:43 kingspawn hybrid: Difficult 07:43 jenda hybrid: I like that. 07:43 jenda kingspawn: +if #ubuntu 07:44 dsas Ok, I wasn't thinking of people being dumb, just that people would want to go for the quality help in a quiet channel. If the invite rule is enforced then that's not an issue anywa. 07:44 kingspawn jenda: Oh, haha, didn't know you could do that. Times they are a'changing 07:44 jenda nalioth: talking about sidechannels 07:45 ompaul anyway that is my idea, suggestion whatever 07:45 nalioth i do not want to fragment off #ubuntu. I think that if you invite a new user to #ubuntu-offtopic or #kubuntu-offtopic, a) you 'own' the problem until you've solved it and b) there are others in those channels who may be able to contribute 07:46 kingspawn nalioth: Did you read ompauls idea? 07:46 jenda nalioth: partly agreed, but it kills those channels. 07:46 ompaul what I had suggested wa this === gruvby [i=gruvby@eyeoftruth.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 07:46 ompaul ompaul> folks I want to put out a full idea, so if you let me do it in one block you will see a reasonable suggestion, and then you can think ohh that is bad because or it is good because, first off I am opposed to names because it is not in the spirit of community, second off, it leads to toooooo many channels, if there was #ubuntu-nun1 #ubuntu-nun2 #ubuntu-nun3 they are in essence a temp channel - the person goes there and gets the issue 07:46 ompaul resolved 07:46 ompaul <ompaul> it is inhabitied by several mentors, (Quality Assurance) and then the user is removed when the issue is sorted the only people left in the channel are the mentors, is that too bizarre? 07:46 nalioth still reading the backlog 07:46 pppoe_dude sorry guys but i have to leave... where can i join the mailing list? 07:46 jenda nalioth: we were thinking of creating special #ubuntu-nun-mentoring channels (no matter the name) 07:46 robotgeek is the issue with #ubuntu that too many people there? 07:46 jenda pppoe_dude: I'll ping you once there is one. 07:46 nalioth pppoe_dude: i'll get the mailing list figured out 07:47 gnomefreak scrolling 07:47 pppoe_dude jenda, ok thanks 07:47 ompaul robotgeek, no it is more that a new user can't cope with the amount of text 07:47 kingspawn robotgeek: Not exactly. The issue is that helping people with more detail than "DO THIS!" is impossible there 07:47 pppoe_dude bye :) 07:47 jenda bye 07:47 ompaul robotgeek, you can't carry out a conversation with them 07:47 nalioth robotgeek: since dapper released, at times #ubuntu is incomprehensible for new users, i'd suspect 07:47 jenda agreed. 07:47 robotgeek i am mostly not in there, i only support #kubuntu now. good to know 07:48 nalioth i don't necessarily agree with having -nun1 -nun2 and having our folks in the channel, since there are folks who are not nun members willing to help also 07:48 G0SUB nalioth: +1 07:49 jenda agreed 07:49 gnomefreak the issue if you start pulling people from #ubuntu is they will not know where to get help after a few times 07:49 kingspawn gnomefreak: This needs to be explained 07:49 lastnode defragging the main channel may lead to other problems 07:49 lastnode that's my main concern 07:49 jenda gnomefreak: i don't think so. They'll be side channels for single use (+if, IMO) 07:50 lastnode anyway, i have school tomo 07:50 lastnode going to bed 07:50 gnomefreak night lastnode 07:50 lastnode 23:30 over here 07:50 lastnode night guys 07:50 lastnode let me know what goes down :p === lastnode stuffs a ballot a box for good measure 07:50 jenda night 07:51 gnomefreak nalioth: i would like if we can get up with the members and see who is active and who isnt (this might give us a better idea on how to pull nun back up) 07:51 ompaul well it was only to assist where a user is in a channel where the questions are as bewildering as they are plentiful 07:52 jenda Hmm... the problem is overcrowding in #ubuntu. #nick channels seem a viable solution, except they are temporary. #-nun-X channels seem a little messy (perhaps fixable with +if ubuntu)... 07:52 nalioth gnomefreak: this is another reason for getting the mailing list up 07:52 jenda #ubuntu-beginners is no solution. 07:52 jenda Did I sum that up right? 07:52 hybrid im going to make an account just for mailing list === ompaul thinks the conversation has just gone full circle and the wagons are now closed 07:52 kingspawn Heh. 07:52 gnomefreak ok cool i was looking for it yesterday but couldnt find it if you need help getting it up let me know 07:52 kingspawn I guess I've stated my take on it enough. 07:53 jenda thats why I tried to sum it up... 07:53 gnomefreak answer on that was? 07:53 ompaul there is none 07:53 gnomefreak ok 07:53 kingspawn How about doing a pilot project with ompauls idea? 07:54 kingspawn If it doesn't work out, back to the drawing boards === gnomefreak missed that 07:54 ompaul minute 45 07:54 kermitX_ are we limiting the solution to this part strictly to IRC? or would some sort of web application that spawns one-on-one webchat sessions a viable alternative? 07:54 Seveas kermitX_, mugshot! 07:54 kingspawn kermitX_: What the... 07:55 kingspawn kermitX_: Have you gone raving mad? ;) 07:55 jenda hmm 07:55 jenda I think IRC is ideal for this... 07:55 kingspawn kermitX_: That's my way of saying "Doesn't sound good" 07:55 Seveas kingspawn, red hat is working on it already ;) 07:55 gnomefreak ok so make one channel voice all members and voice users that were invited there for help i see one issue with that 07:55 kingspawn Seveas: Well, we know that _they_ have gone mad haha 07:55 Seveas hehe 07:55 gnomefreak only ops can give or take voice are we gonna have 15 ops? 07:55 Seveas why mess with voice/ops? 07:55 Seveas that's just terrible 07:56 nalioth Seveas: +q 07:56 nalioth oope 07:56 kingspawn Seveas: To be able to get rid of them again, heh. 07:56 gnomefreak thats how i read ompaul idea on that 07:56 nalioth =1 07:56 kingspawn To perpetuate the idea that they shouldnt outstay their mentoring-welcome 07:56 nalioth ah, i need to go back to bed 07:56 ompaul forget the voice idea, but how do you do the you only got one ticket for help 07:56 nalioth you gently guide them back to #ubuntu 07:57 kingspawn Yeah. 07:57 ompaul Phone Call ! - 07:57 kermitX_ kingspawn, Seveas: i was thinking something like a pastebin on oneside and a chat window on the other. 07:57 kingspawn Politely stating that this ends the session, and that #ubuntu is the place for further inquiry shouldn't be impossible 07:57 jenda gnomefreak: nope... I don't think so... 07:57 kingspawn Most people would take that alright, I think 07:58 jenda ompaul, in your proposition, could the channels be +if #ubuntu ? 07:58 jenda all we need then is the invite command at level 1 and all mentors at that level in the channels. 07:58 kingspawn jenda: In ircspeak, that is "you get routed to #ubuntu unless you were explicitly invited"? 07:59 jenda kingspawn: check 07:59 nalioth kingspawn: that is the point 07:59 kingspawn That is a nice idea. 07:59 jenda I think that would work perfectly 07:59 jenda And we could stick with one such channel and gradually expand if needed. 08:00 kingspawn Yes. 08:00 sladen I feel guility everytime I leave #ubuntu, since I frequently find there aren't many other people around and that leaving generally means dumping X number of new users into the pit again to fend for themselves 08:00 kingspawn I think that would be a good approach. 08:01 gnomefreak is that possible kingspawn ? 08:01 nalioth sladen: you don't stay in multiple channels? 08:01 nalioth how about #ubuntu-classroom ? 08:01 gnomefreak to only allow invites? 08:01 gnomefreak nalioth: +1 08:01 kermitX_ nalioth, works for me. === JanC [n=janc@lugwv/member/JanC] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 08:01 kingspawn gnomefreak: Yeah 08:01 nalioth gnomefreak: that would keep folks from lurking (which may or may not be a good thing . . . ) 08:01 Spec How does one become a NuN? 08:02 sladen nalioth: I generally can only cope with an hour or so at a time; and often within that I'll have several users I've /query'ed and am following up in detail with 08:02 nalioth sladen: ah 08:02 kermitX_ nalioth, better than #ubuntu-nun-habit 08:02 gnomefreak what happens if they dont know how to except invite i just learned the other day :( 08:02 nalioth gnomefreak: good point 08:02 kingspawn gnomefreak: Just go like "I am going to invite you to a channel. Type /j #channel to join it" 08:02 jenda Spec: launchpad and read the wiki 08:02 kingspawn Well, that doesnt mention the name, heh. 08:02 dsas If you only allow invites, then is there some difficulty of recruiting new people? 08:03 gnomefreak kingspawn: thats them trying to join not invite right? 08:03 nalioth i personally don't see the need to move folks on back to #ubuntu, since the helped of today can be the helpers of tomorrow 08:03 Seveas #ubuntu-classroom is not a new idea but I love to see it worked out 08:03 jenda dsas: only stable community members should do this type of work anyway 08:03 Seveas actually it was #ubuntu-school, but classroom is better 08:03 kingspawn gnomefreak: Yeah, but you just invite them, and then say that they have been invited, type /j #whatnot to accept the invitation 08:03 jenda Seveas: check. 08:04 hybrid Seveas: #ubuntu-school "You've Been Schooled!" 08:04 dsas jenda: I'm just thinking it'll raise the entry barrier for people becoming community members. === gnomefreak right clicked link and clicked join after invting myself lol 08:04 nalioth if you invite someone and they don't know they've been invited, you can tell them in #ubuntu how to join and only they'll be able to join, anyway 08:04 nalioth dsas: there is that, also 08:04 kingspawn But remember that these are special cases 08:04 kingspawn People start helping out in #ubuntu all the time 08:04 gnomefreak agreed 08:04 jenda dsas: I don't think so. It will soon be a well known thing in #ubuntu. 08:04 kingspawn Some of them move to offtopic, where they get in touch with others, and maybe then get into the nun-thing 08:05 kingspawn They ways of irc are strange and many 08:05 gnomefreak always start in #ubuntu unless its a colpiling issue or code issue (this way we can also keep offtopic for offtopic 08:06 gnomefreak compiling* 08:06 Seveas To get people enthousiastic about helping, #ubuntu-classroom may be a good idea but we have to invest a lot of time in it === gnomefreak will stay there most of time atleast my nick will be there 08:06 kingspawn The -classroom would be what we are talking about now, or something else? 08:06 gnomefreak if im here im here to help 08:06 hybrid classroom sounds like a good idea 08:06 nalioth i am still not sure making it invite-only is a good thing 08:06 hybrid AND you dont need a degree ;) 08:07 nalioth people outside of -nun will want to help 08:07 gnomefreak nalioth: im kind of debating ont hat also 08:07 hybrid -classroom would need to be more open, like nalioth said 08:07 nalioth if the folks start getting offtopic in -classroom, well, you have +q and /remove 08:07 Seveas nalioth, no, only you have them ;) 08:08 kingspawn Heh 08:08 kingspawn I have "Hush up now" 08:09 gnomefreak does locobot do factoids? 08:09 Seveas no 08:09 nalioth ok, #ubuntu-classroom is up and has admins 08:09 Seveas ubotu can join #ubuntu-classroom 08:10 Seveas I'll be running both ubotu and ubugtu soon and will ask for join-limit exceptions so they can be more useful 08:10 gnomefreak no you cant :( === gnomefreak cant get in -classroom 08:11 nalioth gry now, gnomefreak 08:11 jenda gnomefreak: try again 08:11 nalioth bleh, i really do need to wake up 08:11 gnomefreak ty 08:11 Spec people outside of NuN that want to help can help in #ubuntu 08:12 Spec people inside of NuN (QualityHelp!) have invites.... 08:12 Seveas NuN people shouldn't see themselves as elite helpers, just hard workers 08:12 nalioth Spec: i don't personally turn down help anywhere 08:13 jenda Seveas: check. That's for sure. 08:13 Seveas just because someone knows some more things, he is not better than others 08:13 jenda THere is nothing elite about dragging newbies away and having the patience to lead them for hours, if need be. 08:13 gnomefreak i see what they are saying on that though with the bad advice some people are known to give 08:13 Seveas I've personally always ignored the "seveas is the best" or "nalioth rocks" kind of comments, they're nice to get but nothing more 08:14 jenda Seveas: I hardly know more things :) But I can introduce people to Linux as well as most techies out there, or better. 08:14 nalioth just because we are -nun members does not mean we do not give bad advice at times 08:14 kermitX_ Seveas, i certainly don't know more than most ppl, but i have been through what the newbies have been. 08:14 Seveas kermitX_, we all have 08:14 jenda Seveas: don't boast, we all know you never get such comments. === Seveas was little more than a newbie 2 years ago 08:14 Seveas jenda, hehe 08:14 gnomefreak nalioth: i agree but we dont sit there and do it all the time (like setting up su) 08:15 kermitX_ Seveas, but so many of the 'geeks' out there, they forget easily how rough it is at the beginning. 08:15 robotgeek i gotta run too, later folks === mharwood [n=matt@cpc4-lutn4-0-0-cust327.lutn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 08:15 hybrid at the begining? its tough in the middle too 08:15 nalioth robotgeek: take care 08:15 gnomefreak later robotgeek 08:15 kermitX_ hybrid, heard that. ;) 08:16 dsas kermitX_: So will you one day. Probably. 08:16 jenda robotgeek: later 08:16 jenda dsas, not within the NUN 08:16 nalioth ok, channel solved, is there any other business? 08:16 gnomefreak we happy with new channel for support? 08:16 jenda soo... one more channel issue: 08:16 jenda to +if or not to +if? 08:17 Seveas NOT to +if 08:17 gnomefreak nalioth: the mailing list but im gathering you got that 08:17 jenda OK, not to. 08:17 nalioth i really think +if is a bad idea 08:17 gnomefreak not to +if 08:17 nalioth i will look into the mailing list 08:17 gnomefreak ok 08:17 hybrid jenda: we should keep the classroom open 08:17 hybrid free education 08:17 jenda strong vote ;) and i didn't set my own opinion. 08:17 jenda indeed. :) 08:17 gnomefreak lol 08:18 jenda I'm a little afraid we might need to +m later. But for now, everything is OK 08:18 jenda Next? 08:18 jenda :) 08:18 gnomefreak what about a meeting schedule? 08:18 jenda two weeks is standard... 08:18 jenda but perhaps we should meet next week? 08:18 jenda to see it through the start? 08:18 gnomefreak jenda: every other thursday at 1700 UTC? 08:19 nalioth gnomefreak: i think meetings should be 'as needed' 08:19 gnomefreak k 08:19 jenda agreed. Next thursday at 17:00? 08:19 gnomefreak jenda: depends on the agenda i would say 08:20 jenda OK === gnomefreak thinks the mailing list and the wiki are 2 things that need att 08:20 jenda agreed there. 08:20 jenda /NewUserNetwork needs some love 08:20 kermitX_ mailing list top priority so i don't forget meetings. ;) 08:21 gnomefreak lol kermitX_ 08:21 L1nx So... Is the classroom exclusive to recieving help, or can I just listen in? 08:21 jenda I can write it once I get all the ideas in my head :) 08:21 hybrid ill look into /NewUserNetwork jenda 08:21 jenda L1nx: feel free, I guess. 08:21 hybrid or you can ;) 08:21 kermitX_ mailing list might reduce need for official meetings? 08:21 gnomefreak L1nx: too hard a questionm lol 08:21 nalioth i will get the mailing list running (again) 08:21 jenda hybrid: whoever finds the time first ;) 08:21 hybrid jenda: sounds good 08:21 nalioth L1nx: you are welcome to lurk (you might even jump in and help ) 08:22 L1nx Cool 08:22 hybrid L1nx: only if you are on my side though :p just kidding 08:22 gnomefreak just keep in mind guys this is not an alternative to #ubuntu 08:22 nalioth gnomefreak is correct 08:22 gnomefreak noraml support needs to go to #ubuntu still 08:23 gnomefreak or however you spell those words ;) 08:23 gnomefreak nalioth: go to bed your making me tired ;) 08:23 kermitX_ L1nx, think of -classroom like ducking into a quiet corner to actually be able to carry on a conversation at a rave or something. 08:25 kermitX_ will the NUN mailing list be for NUN "personnel" only? 08:25 nalioth yes, just members afaik 08:26 nalioth ok, channel sorted, mailing list will be looked at. any other business? 08:26 kermitX_ when we get done using -channel. what do we do with the "client". ask them to leave or boot 'em? 08:27 gnomefreak nalioth: not yet really just need to find out whos active nad whos not but we wait on mailing list for that 08:27 kermitX_ *-classroom 08:27 nalioth gnomefreak: correct. 08:28 gnomefreak thats it there was something else on angeda but didnt want to get rid of it incase it was important 08:28 nalioth kermitX_: i'd recommend a gentle reminder that -classroom is for detailed help on one subject (the one you dragged the user in there for) and that #ubuntu would be more overall helpful 08:28 hybrid kermitX_: /kick is bad 08:28 jenda nice... so we have something done now. 08:28 nalioth kermitX_: and then ignore them heh heh 08:28 kingspawn Haha 08:29 gnomefreak ignore is worse than kick imho 08:29 nalioth gnomefreak: will your 'something else' wait or not? === kermitX_ trying to figure out his way through launchpad. 08:29 gnomefreak nalioth: i dont know whos it is or what its about its been there as far back as i can remember 08:29 jenda Ops do NOT /ignore 08:29 jenda right? 08:29 gnomefreak right 08:30 jenda neither should NUNs IMO 08:30 nalioth jenda: that is for another discussion === pihl [n=pihl@port134.ds1-gjp.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 08:30 nalioth ok. Any other business? 08:30 gnomefreak nope 08:30 gnomefreak afaik we can call it over 08:30 jenda OK 08:30 nalioth i move for meeting adjournment 08:31 kingspawn Alright. 08:31 hybrid second === jenda does too 08:31 jenda hybrid: 4th 08:31 jenda hybrid: 5th
MeetingLogs/NewUserNetwork_2006-06-08 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:14:04 by localhost)