== Log ==
UTC
{{{
17:03	MootBot	Meeting started at 17:03. The chair is liw.
17:03	MootBot	Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
17:04	liw	we don't have much of an agenda prepared
17:04	liw	[TOPIC] post-release bug status
17:04	MootBot	New Topic:  post-release bug status
17:04	heno	I just posted a straw man one now
17:04	liw	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam -- right, at the bottom of the page now
17:05	heno	my favourite bug graph this week http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/plots/update-manager-month-unconfirmed.png
17:05	liw	what's the situation with bugs now, almost a week after the release?
17:05	liw	uh oh, that doesn't look good
17:05	heno	poor mvo really gets flooded just after release
17:05	liw	mvo?
17:06	heno	we should help out with these I think
17:06	bdmurray	I think some of them are invalid, just temporary issues with mirrors, etc
17:06	heno	bdmurray: can you try some bughelper duplication-finding magic on those?
17:06	mvo	liw: hello
17:06	liw	do I read that graph correctly: it shows the number of new, untriaged bugs each day?
17:07	heno	are there lots of apport-generated ones?
17:07	mvo	that is quite possible
17:07	mvo	yes, those are mostly auto-generated
17:07	mvo	we have e.g. ~50 duplicates for a adept bug, let me dig the bugnumber
17:08	heno	liw: right, see http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/update-manager.html for the interactive version
17:08	mvo	https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-manager/+bug/154771
17:08	bdmurray	153500 maybe?
17:08	ubotu	Launchpad bug 154771 in update-manager "Kubuntu 7.10 Upgrading to Kubuntu 7.10 and after gives error and says Distribution is Up To Date" [Undecided,Confirmed]
17:08	liw	is there automation for finding duplicated, automatically reported bugs?
17:08	mvo	bdmurray: yes, that is the other one
17:08	heno	http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/ for other packages
17:08	MootBot	LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/ for other packages
17:09	mvo	the problem with the update-manager bugs is that each update problem gets to this package first
17:09	bdmurray	liw: I believe ther is for crash reports
17:09	pedro_	liw, for stacktraces yes, don't know if there's one for that kind of issues
17:09	heno	mvo: so you don't sound too worried
17:09	mvo	even if its really a bug in e.g. a postinst
17:10	mvo	its certainly not good
17:10	mvo	our upgrade is fragile, mostly because of the fact that for ~2000 installed package ~4000 maintainer scripts gets run and some are really fragile
17:11	mvo	it used to be a upgrade error if e.g. invoke-rc.d can't stop a daemon
17:11	mvo	-> maintainer script failre, upgrade error
17:11	liw	mvo, do you think the fragility could be lessened by more vigorous pre-release testing using automated tools?
=== asac___ is now known as asac_
17:11	bdmurray	mvo: did you find anything out about the medibuntu repo ones?
17:12	heno	mvo: I guess you and liw should talk a bit about upgrade testing at UDS
17:12	mvo	same for .e.g python. if python-central is not able to compile py modules (e.g. because of locally installed stuff) the upgrade may fail
17:12	mvo	liw: to a certain extend yes
17:12	mvo	liw: one big issue is that we do not test universe packages enough for upgradability
17:12	heno	mvo: what's the limiting factor on test coverage; coding tests or HW to run on?
17:12	Lutin	bdmurray: what are the medibuntu-related ones ?
17:12	cjwatson	we made python a bit less fragile in the gutsy cycle by at least ensuring that debconf doesn't fail to configure in that case
17:12	liw	mvo, we should test universe packages as well, certainly
17:13	mvo	liw: but then its a problem with our paradigma, maintainer script fails -> upgrade fails
17:13	heno	imagine if we wanted to run a silly amt of permutations of upgrade scenarios
17:13	mvo	heno: time
17:13	heno	mvo: as in dev time?
17:13	bdmurray	bug 153948 is an example
17:13	ubotu	Launchpad bug 153948 in rosetta "Launchpad translations take a plain '%' char as a format string when it's not a format string" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153948
17:13	mvo	cjwatson: yes, I think we do better than before (with invoke-rc.d as well)
17:13	mvo	bdmurray: no, sorry
17:13	bdmurray	Lutin: bug 153958 is an example
17:13	ubotu	Launchpad bug 153958 in update-manager "update-manager problem when upgrading from Feisty to Gutsy" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153958
17:13	mvo	heno: dev time to setup the tests
17:14	mvo	heno: the currently available auto-upgrade tester could test universe as well, the code is there
17:14	Lutin	bdmurray: this url has been deprecated for months
17:14	mvo	heno: but it takes time to generate the base image for the upgrade test and especially in universe quite a few packages fail to install
17:14	heno	I wonder how many of the bugs we are getting involve universe packages
17:14	bdmurray	Lutin: well, apparently not everyone knows that
17:15	liw	it would be possible to set up piuparts for example to break invoke-rc.d and see what happens, might be an interesting thing to do
17:15	mvo	heno: the other issue is that the upgrade takes a lot of time with  a lot of packages
17:15	mvo	heno: I did tests with ~12000 installed packages and dpkg eat ~500 mb of real mem
17:15	Lutin	bdmurray: unfortunately :/
17:16	liw	mvo, that's thankfully a problem that can be solved by throwing hardware at it
17:16	mvo	liw: if invoke-rc.d is broken, every upgraded daemon fails and that makes the upgrade fail (or at least it gives scary errors)
17:16	heno	mvo: right, I'm thinking it would be cool to combine this with other tests, like server testing that needs HW anyway
17:16	mvo	right
17:16	liw	mvo, right, the point would be to see how much stuff breaks by that kind of thing
17:17	mvo	right
17:17	heno	so just to wrap up the topic:
17:17	Lutin	bdmurray: does this kind of bug _break_ the upgrade ? I wouldn't believe it
17:17	mvo	I didn't managed to analyze the bugreports fully yet, but from what i have seen over the weekend it seem a lot of errors are releated to getting the upgrades because of server overload (especially mirrors) and then packages breaking during the upgrade
=== asac_ is now known as asac
17:18	heno	bdmurray, pedro_, ogasawara: would you say the bug report impact from the release has been noticeable, but not alarming?
17:18	ogasawara	heno: yes
17:18	pedro_	i thought it would be worse
17:19	pedro_	we indeed get a lot of reports during the weekend but nothing alarming
17:19	heno	ok, great
17:19	heno	next topic?
17:19	bdmurray	my concern is us fallling further behind in the next 2 weeks though
17:19	liw	[AGREED] the bug report impact from the release has been noticeable, but not alarming
17:19	MootBot	AGREED received:  the bug report impact from the release has been noticeable, but not alarming
17:20	liw	[TOPIC] mobile platform test cases
17:20	MootBot	New Topic:  mobile platform test cases
17:20	heno	bdmurray: with UDS and AllHands getting in the way, true
17:21	heno	any one here have experience with the mobile platform?
17:21	liw	not me
17:21	ogasawara	heno: I don't
17:21	pedro_	i dont...
17:22	bdmurray	I've used a mobile device before. ;)
17:22	heno	we need some better test plans there; But I'll email some people
17:23	heno	(it was worth asking :) ) ; ok, next topic
17:23	liw	[TOPIC] testing plans for hardy
17:23	MootBot	New Topic:  testing plans for hardy
17:24	heno	I seem to remember we had various long-term issues we wanted to discuss last week, but cut short
17:24	heno	hence the general testing and bug topics on the agenda
17:25	heno	has everyone going to UDS looked at the proposed topics and subscribed?
17:25	liw	I'm trying to find the log from the previous meeting
17:26	liw	I've looked at and subscribed to all relevant UDS topics I know of
17:26	heno	you need to subscribe to the specs to be scheduled for the meetings
* ogasawara needs to subscribe then
17:26	heno	yeah, please do that before UDS starts
17:26	liw	http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.log.20071017_1719.html -- that should be our previous meeting
17:26	MootBot	LINK received:  http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.log.20071017_1719.html -- that should be our previous meeting
17:27	heno	I'll go through the list later today and subscribe other distro people to things that seem relevant as well
17:28	liw	nothing much in that log, though
17:28	liw	I'll re-iterate my intention of concentrating, to the extent possible, on automating tests, starting with using existing tools of various kinds
17:29	liw	anyone else?
17:29	heno	right; system-level stuff before new year (est.) and then make a start on gui-based testing after new year
17:29	liw	anything else?
17:29	liw	yeah, like that
17:30	heno	I have another topic: QA resource page
17:31	liw	let's do the remainign one in the wiki first
17:31	liw	[TOPIC] bug management plans for hardy
17:31	MootBot	New Topic:  bug management plans for hardy
17:31	liw	I have the feeling we should try to keep the number of untriaged bugs and the number of open bugs as low as possible -- it's easier to do triage if there's only a small number of bugs to work on
17:31	liw	but I haven't participated in triage at all yet
17:32	heno	a noble goal
17:33	liw	let's see if it is a practical one as well
17:33	liw	anything else about bug management?
17:33	heno	that either means cloning more triagers, tightening policy (closing more bugs), making it more difficult to file bugs, etc.
17:33	bdmurray	I think writing some bughelper clue files for previous high profile bugs to identify duplicates and cleanup some packages might be worthwhile
17:34	heno	which may all be valid choices
17:34	heno	bdmurray: 'clean up some packages' -> the clue files for them?
17:36	bdmurray	Like mvo mentioned an update-manager bug earlier, lets write a clue file for that and other update-manager bugs and see how many dupes we can find and what affect that has on the number of update-manager bugs
17:37	heno	bdmurray: right, this is a good time for that as we're not under the pressure of a release
17:37	davmor2	Sorry I'm late :(
17:37	bdmurray	well, we also need to keep an eye out for sru candidate bugs
17:37	bdmurray	but I think some of the reports may help with that
17:38	davmor2	SRU?
17:38	bdmurray	stable release update
17:38	davmor2	ta
17:40	liw	anything else on this topic?
17:41	heno	next?
17:41	liw	[TOPIC] QA resource page
17:41	MootBot	New Topic:  QA resource page
17:41	liw	heno?
17:41	heno	I just posted this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Resources
17:42	heno	I'd like us to bring up a few on-line resources about QA at these meetings each week
17:42	heno	there is lots we can all learn out there
17:42	heno	as a new team I think that would be valuable
17:43	liw	I agree
17:43	heno	We could all just add links to that page, but I'd like them to be mentioned here in some way
17:43	heno	a long list of links is not that useful
17:44	liw	mentioning them here would be good
17:44	liw	also, perhaps adding a few words of description to each link?
17:44	liw	[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Resources
17:44	heno	I wonder if we could ask each person to bring one item to the meeting each week and say two lines about it?
17:44	MootBot	LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Resources
17:45	liw	I'd rather have people mention anything they happen to find
17:45	heno	it could be an article, research paper, good blog entry about QA, video, etc.
17:45	liw	in a repeating topic that happens every week
17:45	heno	ok, that works too
17:45	davmor2	sounds good :)
17:46	liw	I'll add that topic to the agenda now so we don't forget
17:46	bdmurray	And what is the purpose?  I'd have to stop doing something else to do this.
17:46	heno	these are not required reading of course, just recommended :)
17:46	heno	bdmurray: if you don't feel it helps you then you don't need to
17:47	heno	you might want to glance at what is being posted though
17:47	bdmurray	I'd certainly like to, but I'm quite uncertain where to fit it in
17:47	liw	I follow programming.reddit.com and they fairly often have testing stuff there, so I'd be more than happy to mention anything there
17:48	heno	bdmurray: you mean about finding links or looking at other people's submissions?
17:48	bdmurray	heno: both. ;)
17:48	davmor2	I think an useful links that further the cause can only be a good thing :)
17:48	heno	right, the google tech talks are quite long, about an hour
17:50	heno	bdmurray: you could post an informative bug search from your weekly work that new community people might find useful
17:51	bdmurray	heno: okay, I'll see what I can come up with
17:53	liw	so: anyone is welcome to bring what they have, and anyone is welcome to make what use they can of what is brought -- are we in agreement? :)
17:53	heno	I guess this is something I'm used to fro my university days; lunch-time talks
17:53	heno	I think so
17:53	liw	any other topics?
17:53	heno	any other business?
17:53	heno	:)
17:54	heno	oh, the open week sessions went really well!
17:54	bdmurray	When will the next meeting be?
17:54	heno	bdmurray, pedro_, liw: well done!
17:54	liw	bdmurray, good point
17:54	heno	hm, we should schedule one during UDS
17:54	davmor2	yes,  Is there a way that we can log our hardware fully?  So that it gets added to bugs and reports save having to add it each time?
17:54	heno	with in-person and voip
17:55	liw	heno, would it be best to do that scheduling on site when we know what the uds schedule looks like?
17:55	heno	right, should we punt that decision to Monday?
17:55	liw	davmor2, the reportbug(-ng) program could perhaps be adapted to report bugs to launchpad
17:56	liw	heno, I'd say we should punt to Monday
17:56	heno	davmor2: I'd like to start using hwtest for this
17:56	davmor2	any links for hwtest?
17:56	heno	it produces an XML file that we can store different places
17:57	heno	it should be an ubuntu app
* heno looks for it
17:57	heno	when did we remove that from the menus?
17:58	bdmurray	I thought it was run once thing
17:58	davmor2	okay cool.  I'm thinking that in testing senario's it may speed things up if every tester with intel cpu is having issues where as everyone with amd's are fine same for 32 and 64 bit etc.
17:58	bdmurray	That is why it isn't in the menu
17:59	bdmurray	However, I don't recall seeing it when doing Gutsy installs
17:59	heno	I think it was there in the old days, but removed for the reason you stated
18:00	heno	let's take that question to the mailing list ...
18:00	liw	anything else for this meeting?
18:00	heno	bdmurray: should that be announced somewhere, should we just start using it?
18:01	davmor2	heno are you on about ubuntu device database?
18:01	bdmurray	heno: that what?
18:01	heno	davmor2: yes
18:01	heno	bdmurray: ubuntu-qa mailing list
18:01	davmor2	it's hidden in system tools
18:01	heno	(sorry, unclear)
18:02	davmor2	ubuntu-qa has a mailing list ?
18:02	bdmurray	davmor2: yeah, I haven't looked at it in a bit and no is subscribed but we thought we would start using it for this
18:03	bdmurray	so I need to double check the config then we can start using it
18:03	heno	bdmurray: can you post some info to the bugsquad list and place a link in the wiki, etc. when it's ready?
18:04	heno	or we can just subscribe and go?
18:04	stgraber	sorry, was afk for quite a long time :)
18:05	bdmurray	why don't we just start using it and see what happens
18:05	heno	davmor2: let's play with that app a bit and brainstorm on the new list
18:06	heno	ok cool
18:06	davmor2	where's the sign up point?
18:06	heno	anything else?
18:06	liw	how does one subscribe?
18:06	bdmurray	https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
18:07	davmor2	request sent :)
18:08	pedro_	subscribed :-)
18:08	heno	ok, I think we're done
18:08	liw	subscribed
18:08	liw	#endmeeting
18:08	MootBot	Meeting finished at 18:08.}}}