== Log ==
UTC
{{{
19:01	heno	hello
19:01	Iulian	Hey!
19:01	nand	hi
19:04	heno	#startmeeting
* ogasawara_ waves
19:05	pedro_	hi hi
19:05	heno	hm, no bot today?
19:05	heno	anyway, welcome all!
19:06	heno	jcastro: here?
19:06	davmor2	sorry I'm late :)
19:06	bdmurray	Hello!  Is it 1900?
19:07	pedro_	bdmurray: i'm wondering the same...
19:07	heno	arg!
19:07	pedro_	probably that's why evolution didn't tell me anything
19:07	davmor2	19:07
19:07	heno	why didn't anyone stop me? :)
19:07	nand	oh yeah, we switched time
19:08	heno	davmor2: but not UTC
19:08	nand	now is 20 UTC, right?
19:08	davmor2	ah
* liw starts recruiting people to the Alliance Against DST
19:08	heno	the meeting page clearly says UTC (and I wrote it ...)
19:08	liw	so we already had the meeting an hour ago, right
19:09	heno	no, it's an hour from now
19:09	bdmurray	That's what I'd thought.
19:09	pedro_	it's 18 UTC now
19:09	heno	seeing that we're all here, shall we go ahead?
19:10	liw	I'm fine with now
19:10	ogasawara_	+1
19:10	pedro_	yeah go for it
19:10	heno	apologies to those who miss it and are reading this in logs ...
19:11	heno	[TOPIC] New team member introduction: Chris Gregan, Mobile QA
19:11	heno	everyone wave to cgregan!
19:11	cgregan	Hello team
19:11	liw	cgregan, hi
19:11	pedro_	welcome cgregan!
19:11	davmor2	I thought UTC was bst
19:11	ogasawara_	hi cregan!
19:11	Iulian	Hello cgregan
19:11	heno	Chris has been keeping busy getting up to speed with the mobile team
19:12	heno	He'll be doing bug management and testing on mobile
19:12	davmor2	brave man well done :)
19:12	pedro_	rock on!
19:13	heno	cgregan: you can find QA team members in #ubuntu-bugs and #ubuntu-testing usually
19:13	cgregan	heno: good to know...I will add them to my, growing, list of irc channels
19:13	heno	great
19:13	davmor2	cgregan: it only gets bigger :)
19:14	heno	I don't see jcastro here just yet, so let's take topic #3 for now
19:14	heno	[TOPIC] Test plan review for RC/Final
19:15	heno	davmor2: has been updating the Xubuntu and KDE4 plans with nice graphics :)
19:15	davmor2	I got a boat load to upload to the kde4 one once that is out of the way I'll start up-dating the others now we have nice layout :)
19:15	heno	I'd like everyone to look over the test plans if you have a chance and fix obvious errors and out-of-dateness
19:16	heno	davmor2: rock!
19:16	cgregan	davmor2: Can you send link to plans?
19:16	liw	cgregan, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases is that what you mean?
19:16	cgregan	liw: perfect
19:17	cgregan	thanks
19:17	heno	cgregan comes from a backgound in mostly proprietary software QA
19:17	davmor2	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/XubuntuDesktop is likely to be the general layout making it easy to see what the desktop should look like and the apps we're describing also.
19:17	heno	cgregan: I'd appreciate your take on these plans
19:18	cgregan	heno: sure...I'll review and update the team
19:18	liw	davmor2, awesome work
19:19	davmor2	liw: the kde4 was the other layout but we agreed it was easier with images :)
19:19	davmor2	kde4 is mostly text layout hightlighting things that are important
19:19	davmor2	to many t's in highlighting :)
19:20	heno	I think jcastro may have fallen victim to my scheduling gaffe :(
19:21	bdmurray	Should have a test case for ubiquity-only?
19:21	heno	let's cover the upstream bug topic now and I can have a phone call with him later
19:22	heno	bdmurray: is it very different from Live -> ubiquity?
19:22	heno	We should make sure both paths get tested indeed
19:22	bdmurray	Only in terms of accessing it.
19:22	davmor2	bdmurray: you can't really do that with ease because there are several versions of ubiquity each slightly different
19:22	heno	and it's important to exercise both code paths
19:24	heno	davmor2: but on a given CD is there much difference in running ubiquity with 'Install only' and Live -> Install?
19:24	bdmurray	The installation process does not change but the amount of memory required for ubiquity only is much less.
19:25	heno	I'm hesitant about adding a test case for every variation because we quickly get too many
19:25	liw	heno, I was thinking the same thing
19:25	heno	though this may be a valid case
19:26	davmor2	heno: with you no I don't believe so only the differences that are there anyway.  that is that, Xubuntu pulls in the language packs, Kubuntu's is different in the way the map works  etc
19:26	bdmurray	Perhaps checking with cjwatson or evand would be best then.
19:26	heno	a stop-gat might be to ask people to add a tracker comment about which path they used
19:27	heno	we generally have a fair number of people testing desktop i386 images at least - we should just make sure people use different methods
* heno makes a note for subscription tracking
19:28	davmor2	heno: I think it would be more prudent to stick ubiquity in it's own section at the top of each live cd case listing the fact that it can be accessed via the menu directly and any differences in the versions
19:29	davmor2	that covers every aspect then
19:30	heno	yep, people usually have 3 or so partitioning methods assigned on a given CD and should spread that over start paths
19:30	heno	davmor2: can you add that?
19:30	heno	bdmurray: thanks for pointing that out
19:31	heno	[TOPIC] Upstreaming bugs; wiki guides and bugdays
19:31	davmor2	I'll add it to the list :)  I can throw together some SS of it in action and then upload those as well it shouldn't be too hard.
19:31	heno	I understand there were some mixed views of the value of the upstream linking yesterday
19:32	bdmurray	By the way https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/Wubi isn't linked to on the main page.
19:32	heno	bdmurray: it is at the bottom ;)
19:32	heno	I want to refresh that landing page actually
19:32	heno	it's not very inviting
19:32	bdmurray	Oh, I was just looking at the top section.
19:33	heno	It should be added, you are right
* heno takes an action to tidy that page up
19:33	bdmurray	heno: Do you know what the negative opinions are? I haven't heard them.
19:33	davmor2	bdmurray: it's on the list we will probably lose winfoss
19:34	bdmurray	davmor2: cool, thanks!
19:34	pedro_	bdmurray: basically seb128 and i were talking that the bugday caused us more noise than anything
19:34	pedro_	and it'd be nice if it happens during another time of the release process
19:35	heno	I think the problem is that the upstreaming on gnome bugs was already quite good
19:35	bdmurray	noise in what sense? more bugmail or something else?
19:35	pedro_	yeah lot of bugmail
19:35	heno	and it's difficult to improve on that for people with less experience
19:35	pedro_	we already have a lot daily ;-)
19:36	heno	I think some of the added links may not have been correct
19:37	pedro_	yeah and then we have to correct them
19:37	bdmurray	Okay, both of those points make sense to me.  Are the bug watches useful though?
19:37	bdmurray	Or rather bug watches in general useful?
19:37	heno	I'm also wondering if picking this low hanging fruit isn't really just sidestepping the issue
19:38	heno	filing bugs upstream well is hard and requires insight into that upstream's bug landscape and culture
19:39	heno	we should probably rather focus on packages with very few bugs filed/linked upstream
19:39	heno	start fling/linking those and gaining the experience and connections
19:39	bdmurray	I think there are 2 separate issues though. 1) filing bugs upstream and 2) linking bugs upstream.
19:40	heno	bdmurray: you mean link bugs that someone else has already marked as an upstream issue?
19:41	bdmurray	for point 2 I mean adding a bug watch for an existing upstream bug report
19:41	heno	IMO when you look at a bug with a view to link it upstream you first search the upstream tracker and link if it's found and file if not
19:41	bdmurray	While it still requires a fair bit of knowledge - it can require less than actually filing it upstream.
19:42	heno	but both should be part of the same workflow right?
19:42	heno	the difficult of filing upstream depends a bit on the cost of doing a bad job at it
19:43	heno	IOW - how upset does upstream get if you file a poor bug or dupe?
19:43	bdmurray	You said "filing bugs upstream well is hard".  I'm just saying that linking is different than filing and isn't as hard.
19:44	bdmurray	So while they are part of the same workflow they have different degrees of difficulty.
19:44	heno	If they are helpful in correcting you and helping you learn, then nothing is lost by trying, but if it pisses them off it's more tricky
19:44	heno	this will depend on the upstream and our approach
19:46	heno	bdmurray: I mostly agree. but how many of the linkable bugs are there? is it worth focusing on as an approach
19:46	heno	?
19:47	heno	the number with links in the comments is one thing; the number that already exist upstream but nobody has pointed out is likely much larger
19:48	heno	bdmurray: do you think we should do more 'upstreaming' bug days, or should we make it a component of bug days generally?
19:48	bdmurray	heno: I'm still looking at the numbers as to how many linkable bugs there are.
19:49	heno	btw, has everyone seen https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+upstreamreport ?
19:49	bdmurray	I agree with pedro than now isn't really the right time in the development cycle.  It'd be best done after Hardy releases.
19:49	heno	a view of how many bugs are filed/linked upstream by package
19:50	heno	bdmurray: I agree, that's a good point
19:51	heno	perhaps we should do some themes one looking for severe release blocking bugs and escalating those?
19:51	bdmurray	I think identifying and documenting how to find the right upstream bug is best and then adding that as a component to bug days makes sense.
19:51	heno	it would be good to get more eyes on the fresh bugs leading up to release
19:52	heno	ok, cool
19:52	heno	for now though - perhaps we can do a day looking at iso-testing bugs?
19:52	bdmurray	In regards to bug days I think revisiting bugs w/o a package would be a good idea as there may be something critical hiding there.
19:52	heno	yep
19:52	bdmurray	That too would be good.
19:53	heno	sounds like a plan
19:53	heno	any other topic today?
19:53	bdmurray	One thing
19:54	bdmurray	Or 2 maybe
19:54	jcastro	hi guys
19:54	jcastro	sorry I am late, personal emergency
19:54	davmor2	no but I would like to say that I'll add the ubiquity images to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/LiveCDInstall as it seems the most sensible place for it :)
19:54	bdmurray	I've started a list of triaging specialities at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Contacts - please add yourself i you aren't already there.
19:54	heno	jcastro: actually, we are early ...
19:55	heno	jcastro: I'll phone you in a few minutes and catch you up
19:55	jcastro	ok
19:56	heno	Packages/Area of Specialty - bdmurrary - Everything :)
19:56	bdmurray	geez! I didn't even write that.
19:56	davmor2	heno: one thing also what is happening about the LP testing team?
19:57	heno	the page looks good
19:58	heno	ok, I think we're done
19:58	heno	thanks everyone!
19:58	cgregan	heno: is this the regular time each week?
19:58	liw	cgregan, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings has the times
19:58	pedro_	cgregan: the schedule is at wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
19:58	pedro_	jeje
19:58	heno	cgregan: except we started an hour early by mistake this week ...
19:59	heno	my mistake for the record
19:59	cgregan	liw,pedro_, hino: thanks
19:59	pedro_	you're welcome
19:59	heno	indeed
20:00	heno	google calendar is not helping though
20:00	heno	#endmeeting}}}