20070301

Log

first rough seperation needs work though-- Ausimage 2007-03-01 23:15:31

04:00   jono    hi all
04:00   jono    is anyone here for the community Q+A?
04:00   LoudMouthMan    Hello Jono.
=== Jucato raises his hand
04:00   omegabeta       Yep
04:00   intengu yes
=== morgs too
04:00   jono    righteo
04:00   Jucato  ubuntu-meeting-questions seems to be empty though...
04:00   jono    yeah
04:01   jono    lets just ask questions in here
04:01   Jucato  :)
04:01   jono    please prefix a questions with QUESTION so I can see it
04:01   jono    ok, does anyone want to kick off with questions?
04:01   omegabeta       should we start on particular topics and work our way down?
04:01   jono    omegabeta: no, the plan is free form
04:01   jono    ask any questions you like
04:02   jono    so, any questions?
04:02   Jucato  are we limited to 1-2 questions per person? :D
04:02   jono    nope
04:02   jono    as many as you like

04:02   intengu QUESTION: installed gnome main menu herd 4 in control centre groups system
04:02   jono    intengu: thats not a question :)
04:02   Jucato  heh

04:02   LoudMouthMan    QUESTION: Jono how do you feel community is doing. at this moment ?
04:03   boredandblogging        why the decision to allow only approved LoCos to have canonical hosted domains and site?
04:03   jono    LoudMouthMan: I think things are going well, I think our community is growing, we are developing some good best practise and the teams are beginning to communicate better

04:03   GazzaK  QUESTION - if I am rubbish at coding and the like, is a suitable path to ubuntu membership being active on the irc channels and also being the local town's lugmaster?  will I be able to become a ubuntu member with a lack of coding/bug fixing skills?
04:03   jono    LoudMouthMan: but there is lots of road ahead of us and we all need to work together to share information and experience better

04:03   gord    QUSTION: do you see any time in the future where ubuntu community teams will get more support from canonical, for example funding to hold conferences for local businesses or some such
04:03   jono    part of this effort is wiki.ubuntu.com/Buildingcommunity
04:04   dabaR   GazzaK: is that a serious question?
04:04   dabaR   haha
04:04   dabaR   Sorry

04:04   omegabeta       QUESTION : How do you plan to further the ease-of-use in terms of "out of the box" installs regarding display drivers/ network productivity (installation/finding) for the people that have swtiched from Windows, this seems to be the leap and biggest issue?
04:04   Jucato  GazzaK: yes!
=== Jucato did that
04:04   jono    ok

04:04   jono    QUESTION - if I am rubbish at coding and the like, is a suitable path to ubuntu membership being active on the irc channels and also being the local town's lugmaster?  will I be able to become a ubuntu member with a lack of coding/bug fixing skills?
04:05   dabaR   sup with everyone havin voice?

04:05   mobyli  QUESTION: herding cats. Companies make products and as such would no doubt like to influence the direction of upstream projects. How is this possible when you cannot use power directly as in a traditional corporate hierarchy?
04:05   jono    ubuntu membership is about proviing you are a good contributor, and if you can demonstrate commitment to the CC, you will get membership
04:05   jono    it is always recommended that when you apply for membership you have a good body of experience behind you - and there are lots and lots of people with experience in non-coding things such as locos, advocacy, docs etc

04:06   jono    QUSTION: do you see any time in the future where ubuntu community teams will get more support from canonical, for example funding to hold conferences for local businesses or some such
04:06   GazzaK  jono, thanks
04:06   jono    GazzaK: np
04:06   jono    Canonical try to support all teams where possible, and in reality, most teams don't need financial support but help and assistance getting off the ground
04:07   jono    but remember Canonical are a small company, and have a limited budget

04:07   JohnRobert      QUESTION: Why does totem have a video area when I'm playing a music file? I used to be able to resize it away..
04:07   Jucato  O.o
04:07   jono    so we try to plough resources into areas that are the most productive places for the money
04:07   jono    but yes, Canonical is always open to ideas for funding, speak to me if you want to ask

04:07   jono    QUESTION: why the decision to allow only approved LoCos to have canonical hosted domains and site?
04:07   Seveas  jono, then I have some tough questions for you later ;)
04:08   jono    Seveas: :)
04:08   jono    one of the big problems with locos and other teams is that way too much time is spent messing around setting up resources - in reality every team just needs some wiki pages and some structure, as you can see at wiki.ubuntu.com/SampleTeam
04:08   Seveas  jono, 404 on that page
04:09   jono    so by restricting these resources to approved teams, it means the team has spent their time getting a team built and stable and can then offer the next level of resources
04:09   jono    I want to see less time arguing about CMSs and more time *building community* and *building teams* - this is part of the plan
04:09   juliux  Seveas, perhaps jono mean this one https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/SampleTeam
04:09   Seveas  juliux, gracias
04:10   juliux  Seveas, prego
04:10   jono    sorry, yep https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/SampleTeam

04:10   jono    QUESTION : How do you plan to further the ease-of-use in terms of "out of the box" installs regarding display drivers/ network productivity (installation/finding) for the people that have swtiched from Windows, this seems to be the leap and biggest issue?

04:10   Eruantalon      QUESTION: How is Canonical/Ubuntu making sure that any translations, bugfixes and other improvements are sent upstream and shared with other distros? What is done to make sure we are not duplicating the effort?

04:10   Jucato  QUESTION: What is the concrete role of the user community in Ubuntu development or what impact does the user community have in developmennt. How does Ubuntu try to bridge the gap between the developer and user community? For example, how do developers know features that users want or don't want vs. features that developers want or don't want? On the other hand, how are users informed on reasons for some changes or design decisions? or should
04:10   boredandblogging        jono, makes sense, thanks
04:10   Jucato  users be entitled to such information in the first place?
04:10   Jucato  ugh too long.. sorry
04:11   jono    thats more of a technical, distro team question
04:11   jono    but one thing that is on my radar is to improve getting feedback from the community to developers

04:11   JohnRobert      QUESTION: What kind of questions are we meant to be asking here (seriously)
04:11   mooey   :)
04:11   jono    one thing we *really* need to fix is ensuring people test hardware support *before* release instead of installing a new ubuntu and complaining that stuff is b0rked
04:12   omegabeta       JohnRobert: not ones about re-sizing totem

04:12   jono    QUESTION: herding cats. Companies make products and as such would no doubt like to influence the direction of upstream projects. How is this possible when you cannot use power directly as in a traditional corporate hierarchy?
04:12   jono    ahh cool, a herding cats question, hope you guys like the presentation btw :)
=== Jucato still has to watch it :(

04:13   intengu QUESTION: /part
04:13   jono    it depends on how companies want to influence upstreams - working with open source projects is the same for everyone, irrespective of whether you are a company or an individual - you need to understand the community development process - the problem with many companies is that they run in like a bull in a china shop and cause problems
04:13   Eruantalon      jono: Where is it?
04:13   jono    everyone has the potential to help upstreams, companies and individuals
04:14   Jucato  Eruantalon: http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=878
04:14   Eruantalon      Jucato: thx
04:14   jono    Eruantalon: http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=878
04:14   jono    ahh

04:14   jono    <Eruantalon> QUESTION: How is Canonical/Ubuntu making sure that any translations, bugfixes and other improvements are sent upstream and shared with other distros? What is done to make sure we are not duplicating the effort?
04:15   jono    Eruantalon: this is a distro team and Launchpad question, and I am not best to answer it - I do know that we always work to get translations, patches and fixes upstream though, but you will need to speak to the distro and launchpad teams about the specifics
04:15   dabaR   Eruantalon: #ubuntu-my
04:15   dabaR   soirry

04:15   jono    <Jucato> QUESTION: What is the concrete role of the user community in Ubuntu development or what impact does the user community have in developmennt. How does Ubuntu try to bridge the gap between the developer and user community? For example, how do developers know features that users want or don't want vs. features that developers want or don't want? On the other hand, how are users informed on reasons for some changes or design decisions? or sho
04:15   jono    uld users be entitled to such information in the first place?
04:16   Jucato  hehe sorry for the batch question :D
04:16   jono    users play a number of roles in ubuntu development:
04:16   jono    * telling developers what they want, defining needs through use statistics etc
04:16   jono    * giving feedback about ubuntu and what works and what doesnt
04:17   jono    * supporting other users via lists and forums

04:17   daviey  QUESTION: What is being done to encourage people with coding skills into development?  Currently it seems like a cold wall between user and dev
04:17   jono    I am really keen to improve the connection between ubuntu developers and users, but intelligently - we can't just ask users to tell devs what they want - devs are always inundated with cracktastic ideas

04:18   AnRkey  QUESTION: Who decides what is important and whats not when it comes to what needs to be worked on
04:18   dsas    like ponies.
04:18   AnRkey  ?
04:18   Vorian  lol
04:18   AnRkey  rofl
04:18   jono    if anyone has any ideas how to improve this, do let me know - part of my role is to take your ideas and claim them as my own
=== jono laughs
04:18   Jucato  lol

04:18   jono    <JohnRobert> QUESTION: What kind of questions are we meant to be asking here (seriously)
04:19   juliux  JohnRobert, lol
=== JohnRobert isn't laughing
04:19   Jucato  herding ideas know are we? :D
04:19   jono    anything about the ubuntu community
04:19   JohnRobert      ta
04:19   omegabeta       humerously enough, i just applyed updates and i cant do anything except resize this irc window, everything else is frozen
04:19   juliux  JohnRobert, sorry

04:19   omegabeta       QUESTION : How do you plan to further the ease-of-use in terms of "out of the box" installs regarding display drivers/ network productivity (installation/finding) for the people that have swtiched from Windows, this seems to be the leap and biggest issue?

04:19   jono    <daviey> QUESTION: What is being done to encourage people with coding skills into development?  Currently it seems like a cold wall between user and dev

04:19   LoudMouthMan    QUESTION: I know id like to get more Face/presentation time from any developers willing to give it. is there a way a approved loco team could arrange this e.g IRC meetings or Local Lug or dinner events ?
04:20   jono    it is the responsibility of each team to encourage new users to join there teams, so I would like to see coder-friendly teams making an outreach effort
04:20   Jucato  omegabeta: that was answered already I think

04:20   JohnRobert      QUESTION: Alright then, is there a place where users can spew ideas that devs might look at? Rather than all over our blogs? Y'know, like 'wouldn't it be great if there was a nice gui tool for setting up number of times your ext3 fs is force checked'?
04:20   jono    this is another area where I would like to see solid best practise - ensuring that all teams know how to get new users
04:20   omegabeta       oops, my bad

04:21   jono    <AnRkey> QUESTION: Who decides what is important and whats not when it comes to what needs to be worked on
04:21   jono    this is largely a combination of community specs, which anyone can recommend, but the final word comes from the technical board
04:22   jono    sensible specs with people to do the work always have a good chance, and remember you are welcome to work on projects for future inclusion

04:22   jono    <LoudMouthMan> QUESTION: I know id like to get more Face/presentation time from any developers willing to give it. is there a way a approved loco team could arrange this e.g IRC meetings or Local Lug or dinner events ?
04:22   AnRkey  so how do i get them to understand that my poodle is going to be killed because of my pent up rage and the fact that my MX510 has no gui config available
04:22   AnRkey  :P
04:22   jono    this is always tough
04:22   daviey  RE: encourage coders into dev;  I would like to see more #ubuntu-classroom lectures - going through package building and such
04:22   dsas    jono: Though you should mention that non-canonical people can work on what they want.
04:22   jono    we already demand a lot of travel from our paid developers, and Canonical are reluctant to add any more
04:23   AnRkey  i feel cut off from devs
04:23   jono    dsas: indeed
04:23   jono    but every dev lives somewhere, and devs should be contacted directly for speaking appearances
04:23   LoudMouthMan    jono: yeah we understand I was thinking of more on the local . dev down the road opportunity.
04:23   jono    I am also available and do the odd bit of international travel
04:23   dabaR   you should have said that their contact info is on launchpad, so someone can contact them and make them an offer.
04:23   jono    LoudMouthMan: contact them directly
04:23   LoudMouthMan    but get it co-ordinated in the community.
04:23   dsas    LoudMouthMan: we have loads of them here :) I'm sure we could sort something out.
04:24   jono    dabaR: I think we can all figure out how to contact people :)
04:24   LoudMouthMan    dsas: guadec . hmmm .
04:24   jono    LoudMouthMan: you can't coordinate it when their time is so thin and its a local level
04:24   mooey   daviey, absolutly. i have the development knowledge to fix a few bugs, but more often than not i do not because i find working with packaging hugely intimidating. its way to complex.
04:24   AnRkey  jono: i would gladly pay the bounty for things like a mouse gui for 10 button mice
04:24   jono    why have a coordinated system when most devs will only travel within their locality - that would be a system without a problem
04:24   AnRkey  and even for a joystick config gui

04:24   jono    <JohnRobert> QUESTION: Alright then, is there a place where users can spew ideas that devs might look at? Rather than all over our blogs? Y'know, like 'wouldn't it be great if there was a nice gui tool for setting up number of times your ext3 fs is force checked'?
04:24   AnRkey  can i do this and if so how?
04:25   LoudMouthMan    jono : cheers

04:25   Seveas  QUESTION: Where is jono's cellphone?
04:25   JohnRobert      ANSWER: Someplace
04:25   Vorian  lol Seveas
04:26   jono    you are welcome to contact developers and share ideas, but the best place is to register specs with your ideas - remember though that ideas are not enough - if you can back an idea up with people who can work it, it becomes a real possibility

04:26   jono    <Seveas> QUESTION: Where is jono's cellphone?
04:26   jono    in a black cab somewhere in London

04:26   Seveas  err, i meant: QUESTION: what's canonicals position on having companies/foundations/etc associated with Ubuntu?
04:26   jono    although I have a new one now
04:26   jono    woo!!
04:26   jono    <Seveas> err, i meant: QUESTION: what's canonicals position on having companies/foundations/etc associated with Ubuntu?
04:26   Jucato  n73 :)
04:26   jono    Seveas: what do you mean?

04:26   Jucato  QUESTION: about communication between devs and users. do you have some ideas, even wild ones on how to do this? How about plans on gathering user feedback?
04:27   Seveas  jono, basically locoteam sponsoring
04:27   dsas    Jucato: There's the forum-ambassadors spec for one.
04:27   Jucato  is there a channel for the forum council?
04:27   Vorian  Jucato, what do you mean?
04:27   Jucato  dsas: what happened to that spec btw?
04:27   juliux  Seveas, intersting question;)
04:27   jono    Seveas: again, there is limited funding, but in reality, most locos don't need sponsoring - they just need "stuff" - CDs, t-shirts, flyers, posters etc, which we can supply some of, and they can provide the rest

04:27   AnRkey  QUESTION: Jono, could you give more info on adding specs. What kind of info or "backup" can i add to help out? I can design a gui but I can't really code it yet...
04:28   AnRkey  so add my design ideas or what

04:28   jono    <Jucato> QUESTION: about communication between devs and users. do you have some ideas, even wild ones on how to do this? How about plans on gathering user feedback?
04:28   Jucato  Vorian: a place to contact them for inquiries?
04:28   Vorian  Jucato, forums-council AT lists DOT ubuntu DOT com
04:28   Jucato  Vorian: thanks
04:28   Vorian  Jucato, np :)
04:28   jono    Jucato: I have lots of ideas :)
04:29   dsas    Jucato: It's being implemented I believe. I don't know too much about it
04:29   Jucato  hehe care to share? :)
04:29   jono    I think we need to ensure that user feedback makes sense in the scope of development
04:29   dabaR   well, he had the idea to make this meeting.
04:29   jono    let me telly you a little story as an example:
04:29   dabaR   oh, oh, story time!
04:29   Eruantalon      :-)
=== Jucato sits down and listens attentively
04:30   jono    every day my friend would get i from work, and the house would be freezing cold
04:30   jono    and every day he would get in and turn the thermostat up to full
04:30   jono    two other people I know did the same thing

04:30   daviey  QUESTION: is Canonical willing to share any more information on their business interest in Ubuntu?  Where do you envisage Canonical involvement in 5 years time?
04:30   jono    so I asked if other people did it, and everyone I know does it
04:30   dsas    jono: is that your favourite anecdote?
04:30   jono    its cold, so they bang the thermostat up to full
04:31   dsas    :)
04:31   jono    dsas: one of many
04:31   jono    banging it up to full does not make it heat up any quicker, but perception makes us do it
04:31   jono    so, everyone is wrong when using the thermostat - this shows that mass opinion is not always right
04:32   jono    what we need is intelligent feedback
04:32   jono    I am not saying only letting clever people share views, but getting those views intelligently and in a form in which our devs can use
04:32   Jucato  true... but devs usually have a very high standard for what's intelligent feedback...
04:32   dabaR   which is good
04:32   jono    Jucato: yes, but devs don't want to read 150 emails every day with ideas
04:33   daviey  Jucato, isn't there where bug triage's come in?
04:33   Jucato  I mean, from a user's perspective/knowledge, that's the only truth he knows...
04:33   jono    what they want is a list of ideas that are (a) doable (b) considered and (c) practical for ubuntu
04:33   jono    the biggest problem here is that user feedback is largely randomised - and we need to organise and present it effectively to developers

04:33   jono    <AnRkey> QUESTION: Jono, could you give more info on adding specs. What kind of info or "backup" can i add to help out? I can design a gui but I can't really code it yet...
04:34   Jucato  that's the hard part :)
04:34   jono    specs are registered at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/
04:34   jono    they should be detailed descriptions of a feature, how it would work, what work is required to implement it eg
04:35   jono    etc, rahter
04:35   jono    rather
04:35   jono    each spec has a wiki page associated with it
04:35   jono    that is where the spec should be fleshed out
04:35   AnRkey  jono: whould holding poodles for ransom until my demands for a mouse gui are met work?
04:35   jono    we encourage the community to register specs, and these are discussed at the ubuntu developer summit
04:36   jono    AnRkey: poodle abuse is not a good technique
04:36   Eruantalon      AnRkey: Do you really have a mouse with 10 buttons?
04:36   AnRkey  brb counting
04:36   jono    AnRkey: but a detailed spec with how it would work, be designed and some efforts in finding developers to hack on it would do wonders :)
04:36   AnRkey  8 buttons
04:36   jono    right, out of questions
04:36   jono    anything else?
04:36   AnRkey  2 extra functions
04:36   AnRkey  wheelup and wheeldown
04:36   AnRkey  10 total functions
04:37   AnRkey  and i USE them all
04:37   Eruantalon      wow

04:37   daviey  QUESTION: is Canonical willing to share any more information on their business interest in Ubuntu?  Where do you envisage Canonical involvement in 5 years time?
04:37   AnRkey  in linux i use 7 of them

04:37   jono    <daviey> QUESTION: is Canonical willing to share any more information on their business interest in Ubuntu?  Where do you envisage Canonical involvement in 5 years time?
04:37   AnRkey  Eruantalon: get an mx510 or 518 from logitech and see for yourself
04:37   AnRkey  i am in love with these mice
04:38   AnRkey  they make me feel wark when i get the latest version :D
04:38   jono    AnRkey: can you take the discussion elsewhere
04:38   jono    cheers
04:38   AnRkey  jono: sorry
04:38   frafu   maybe there should be a chart with all the ideas and a little description of their status (rejected, adopted, unconsidered yet,...). The users with new ideas could consult the chart to see whether it really is a new idea
04:38   jono    the interests are largely what you see - developing ubuntu, providing support and business services, working with other companies to support ubuntu, hardware relationships etc
04:38   jono    there is no devious or secret plan, at least that I am aware of :P
04:38   Eruantalon      jono: That'
04:39   Eruantalon      s because you're not inner circle yet!
04:39   jono    its always about making ubuntu a product that we can derive revenue from

04:39   AnRkey  QUESTION: what about a comunity voting system for working out each specs importance?
04:39   jono    Eruantalon: hehe, I am pretty close to the center and its all good :)

04:39   jono    <AnRkey> QUESTION: what about a comunity voting system for working out each specs importance?
04:39   daviey  jono, i appreciate there is no devious plan - i believe that.  But surely Canonical can't afford to fund it forever
04:40   jono    AnRkey: thats a popularity contest and its not the spirit of free software - you could get one spec called "Death To All Kittens with KDeath in Kubuntu" and get 5000 wackos to support it and it goes in
04:40   jono    specs and ideas should go in based on merit and the direction of ubuntu
04:40   jono    daviey: sure, we need to be a profitable company, and Canonical has hired a business team to develop these services - training, OEM, ISV, business services, support etc
04:41   daviey  jono, thaank you

04:41   AnRkey  QUESTION: how is the comminity involved in the choices for which spec to work on and how important it is?
04:41   jono    we offer the typical linux distro services,  but there is a lot of work in getting that infrastructure up and running
04:41   jono    part of my work is to always ensure the link between Canonical <--> Community is clear
04:41   jono    daviey: np :)

04:41   jono    <AnRkey> QUESTION: how is the comminity involved in the choices for which spec to work on and how important it is?
04:42   jono    AnRkey: each community member works on what they want to - they decide is fun and interesting and work on it
04:42   jono    any other questions?
04:42   AnRkey  jono: so i need to inspire a dev to work on it then ? :)
04:43   daviey  AnRkey, write up the spec, draw a sketch and see what happens
04:43   jono    AnRkey: write a detail spec about how you would like it to work, and what work needs doing and then go out there and encourage someone to work on it :)
04:43   jono    AnRkey: look at the existing specs
04:43   jono    to see how it works
04:43   Jucato  AnRkey: usually. you either find someone who has the same itch as you, or scratch it yourself eventually :)

04:43   daviey  QUESTION: Would the council consider bounty projects, through launchpad, with the proceeds going to ubuntu
04:43   AnRkey  jono: thanks for your time, i hope i was not too annoying
04:44   jono    of course not AnRkey :)

04:44   jono    <daviey> QUESTION: Would the council consider bounty projects, through launchpad, with the proceeds going to ubuntu
04:44   jono    bounties from who?
04:45   daviey  users
04:45   Jucato  rich users...
04:45   jono    right
04:45   daviey  ie AnRkey wants something and is willing to give say $1 - it would help

04:45   Eruantalon      QUESTION: Has it occured to Canonical that if you are really succesful in making Ubuntu a great distro then you will have trouble making money of support...(Hmm ironically my computer chrashed while writing this question)
04:45   jono    not a question for me really, thats a decision for the Launchpad and technical board - I don't see a problem myself though - don;t we support bounties for products in LP?

04:45   AnRkey  QUESTION: OK last one... Can I sponsor a bounty? So choose a spec and pay it's bounty on behalf of the community?

04:45   jono    <Eruantalon> QUESTION: Has it occured to Canonical that if you are really succesful in making Ubuntu a great distro then you will have trouble making money of support...(Hmm ironically my computer chrashed while writing this question)
04:46   jono    Eruantalon: haha, thats always the problem, but no vendor in the world has made software that easy to use - there will always be support requirements

04:46   jono    <AnRkey> QUESTION: OK last one... Can I sponsor a bounty? So choose a spec and pay it's bounty on behalf of the community?
04:46   jono    AnRkey: sure, anyone can set a bounty :)
04:46   jono    ok I think we are done
04:46   jono    seems like all the questions are in :)
04:46   AnRkey  ok outa here
04:46   AnRkey  thanks again :)
04:46   Jucato  that was fast :)
04:47   jono    this community Q+A will be a monthly meeting
04:47   AnRkey  ta
04:47   GazzaK  thanks jono, good meeting \o/
=== Jucato will keep tabs on the schedules :)
04:47   Eruantalon      same time and place?
04:47   mooey   thank you, jono
04:47   JosefK  good timing on my behalf ^^
04:47   Jucato  thanks jono!!
04:47   jono    thanks all :)

MeetingLogs/QAjono/20070301 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:25:59 by localhost)