20080729
Agenda
Items we will be discussing:
- Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
- Review progress made on the specification listed on the [:ServerTeam/Roadmap: Roadmap].
- Open Discussion.
- Agree on next meeting date and time.
Minutes
Agree on next meeting date and time
Next meeting will be on Tuesday, August 5th at 15:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting.
Log
{{{[16:01] <mathiaz> #startmeeting [16:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:04. The chair is mathiaz. [16:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [16:01] <mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting [16:01] <mathiaz> Previous meeting logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080722 [16:01] <ivoks> and rest of the universe... [16:02] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Clamav and spamassassin in main [16:02] <MootBot> New Topic: Clamav and spamassassin in main [16:02] <mathiaz> ScottK told me that there are some more MIRs that need to be written === ivoks_ is now known as ivoks [16:02] <mathiaz> so that clamav and spamassassin can be moved to main [16:02] <mathiaz> any help in this area is welcomed [16:03] * nijaba waves [16:03] <ivoks> i've promised some work, but didn't have time yet :/ [16:04] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Boot Support for Degraded RAID [16:04] <MootBot> New Topic: Boot Support for Degraded RAID [16:04] <mathiaz> kirkland: got some feedback on testing ? [16:04] <kirkland> mathiaz: I have instructions in the wiki page [16:04] <kirkland> mathiaz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BootDegradedRaid [16:05] <kirkland> mathiaz: kees sponsored the patches to mdadm and initramfs-tools [16:05] <kirkland> mathiaz: there's a bit more to be done, to the installer and grub [16:05] <kirkland> mathiaz: but I have to shift my focus away from RAID at the moment [16:05] <kirkland> mathiaz: I'll write you a blog entry for testing it this week, though [16:06] <mathiaz> kirkland: great ! [16:06] <kirkland> mathiaz: testing went well enough for kees to sponsor the patches [16:07] <mathiaz> kirkland: right - I'd mention in the post that we're looking for tests on real hardware [16:07] <mathiaz> kirkland: as most of your testing instructions have to do with kvm [16:07] <kirkland> mathiaz: hmm, perhaps [16:07] <kirkland> mathiaz: if it works in kvm, i'm pretty confident about real hw [16:07] <kirkland> mathiaz: but i'll mention real hw, with some caveats [16:08] <mathiaz> kirkland: right - but real hw is the real-life use case [16:08] <mathiaz> kirkland: anyway - it's just a suggestion for your post. [16:08] <kirkland> mathiaz: yes, but testers have to be willing to lose all data [16:09] <kirkland> mathiaz: stacked encryption and lvm would be something i'd like other people to help test [16:09] <kirkland> mathiaz: and open *new* bugs [16:09] <mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to write a blog post about testing booting from a degraded raid array [16:09] <MootBot> ACTION received: kirkland to write a blog post about testing booting from a degraded raid array [16:09] <kirkland> mathiaz: I don't really have time to write up complete, detailed instructions on that [16:09] <mathiaz> kirkland: isn't there such a test case in the iso testing pages (stacked encryption) ? [16:10] <nijaba> kirkland: If you do so, why not think of it as addition that could be put in the server guide? [16:10] <kirkland> mathiaz: yes, there are LVM and Encryption instructions in the ISO testing [16:11] <kirkland> mathiaz: those need to be augmented to talk about stacking on top of RAID [16:11] <kirkland> nijaba: it would be good info for the server guide [16:11] <kirkland> nijaba: i'm a bit over-taxed at the moment, though [16:11] <mathiaz> kirkland: so encrypted over lvm over raid arrays ? [16:11] <sommer> kirkland, nijaba degraded raid, etc is on my list [16:11] <sommer> for documenting that is [16:12] <nijaba> sommer: so I think kirkland's testing instruction might be a good starting point [16:12] <kirkland> sommer: great, thanks [16:12] <kirkland> mathiaz: yes [16:12] <sommer> nijaba: definitely... I should be able to help test this week [16:13] * nijaba hugs sommer [16:13] <mathiaz> kirkland: right - and up to now, this setup is not supported in the installer [16:13] <mathiaz> kirkland: or a least with a simple recipe [16:13] <mathiaz> kirkland: you have to setup everything by hand IIRC [16:13] <kirkland> mathiaz: right [16:13] <kirkland> mathiaz: i figured it out, eventually [16:14] <kirkland> mathiaz: but some comprehensive documentation, with screenshots, would be a brilliant addition to the server guide [16:14] * mathiaz nods [16:14] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ServerGuide for Intrepid [16:14] <MootBot> New Topic: Review ServerGuide for Intrepid [16:14] <kirkland> (assuming we test it and it works!!!) [16:14] <jdstrand> kirkland: (sorry for the late response) I'd ahve to agree with mathiaz about testing on real hardware. people have testing environments just like we use kvm, so I think you'll get some takers-- especially ones that care about this (they would likely test on real hardware anyway before deploying) [16:14] <mathiaz> sommer: are you tracking somewhere the section you'd like to add to the guide ? [16:15] <mathiaz> sommer: (eg the raid install we've just talked about) [16:15] <sommer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidServerGuide [16:15] <sommer> mathiaz: I think that's it... the wiki is being slow for me [16:16] <sommer> yep that's the link [16:16] <sommer> the "Confirmed" section has the list [16:16] <mathiaz> sommer: great [16:16] <mathiaz> sommer: could you mark the section that need to be reviewed ? [16:16] <sommer> mathiaz: sure will do [16:17] <mathiaz> sommer: so that they can be easily identified as a task for new contributors [16:17] <mathiaz> sommer: I've also updated the instructions to update the server guide [16:17] <mathiaz> sommer: and how to check out the bzr branch [16:18] <mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#head-0ae127e06ffba31c94b458fbef6eb033e5d8461e [16:18] <sommer> mathiaz: looks good, I've just started using bzr as more than a svn clone [16:19] <mathiaz> we should try to get reviews to be sent via bzr branches [16:19] <sommer> mathiaz: works for me... I also heard back from mdke, and he was going to try and update doc.u.c [16:19] <mathiaz> sommer: anything else new in the server guide for intrepid ? [16:19] <mathiaz> sommer: great [16:20] <sommer> mathiaz: I've updated the Likewise-open section based on the discussions at UDS [16:21] <sommer> mathiaz: other than that, the LDAP section has been updated somewhat [16:21] <sommer> I'll mark those as needed review on the intrepidserverguide page [16:21] <mathiaz> sommer: excellent ! [16:21] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Migrate new installs and upgrades of client and server packages to use SSL v3 or TLS [16:21] <MootBot> New Topic: Migrate new installs and upgrades of client and server packages to use SSL v3 or TLS [16:21] <ivoks> that's done [16:22] <zul> ivoks: so there is no need to change dovecot and apache? [16:22] <ivoks> zul: no [16:22] <mathiaz> ivoks: yop - with an openssl upload [16:22] <zul> ivoks: sweet thats two off my todo list [16:22] <mathiaz> that disable sslv2 [16:22] <ivoks> zul: none of our libraries knows wtf is sslv2 anymore [16:22] <zul> heh [16:23] <mathiaz> that's all I have from last week meeting [16:23] <mathiaz> is there anything else related to last week items ? [16:23] <kirkland> mathiaz: I'd like to thank the community for a strong response on the call for help with the init script status actions [16:24] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Add 'status' action to server init scripts [16:24] <MootBot> New Topic: Add 'status' action to server init scripts [16:24] <kirkland> mathiaz: you can see a ton of progress since last week on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InitScriptStatusActions#head-75448d0a482c28a007476b3be2394d9db3213662 [16:24] <james_w> kirkland: hi, I have a question about this one. [16:24] <mathiaz> kirkland: right - the response has been great [16:24] <mathiaz> kirkland: thanks to your blog post IMO [16:24] <macd> mathiaz, NeilW still needs some reviews on his passenger package on REVU. [16:24] <kirkland> mathiaz: lots of patches still awaiting sponsorship, thanks to zul for sponsoring a goodly bucket of them [16:24] <macd> mathiaz, I think thats all that was left from last weeks points [16:24] <kirkland> james_w: what's up? [16:24] <mathiaz> kirkland: I'll dive into the bugs filed today and sponsor them [16:25] <kirkland> mathiaz: thanks [16:25] <mathiaz> macd: right - I haven't read neilw reply to my email - it's in my inbox though [16:25] <macd> mathiaz, and hes here as well [16:25] <james_w> I got pulled up on to debian-devel a couple of weeks ago when filing patches in Debian becuase I wasn't following Debian norms for this sort of thing. [16:26] * NeilW waves timidly. [16:26] <kirkland> james_w: how so? [16:26] <mathiaz> macd: ok - I'll add a point about rails to the agenda [16:26] <macd> mathiaz, thx [16:26] <james_w> I saw that you have forwarded a whole bunch of these patches to Debian, which is great, thank you, but I wondered if you were not following Debian conventions. [16:26] <kirkland> james_w: how so? [16:27] <kirkland> james_w: i'm not aware of conventions that I've violated.... [16:27] <kirkland> james_w: I haven't seen any response whatsoever from Debian on the individual init script patches I've submitted [16:27] <james_w> firstly, when filing a bunch of bugs on one subject you are requested to notify debian-devel of the fact. [16:27] <kirkland> james_w: the initial functional addition of status_of_proc() was accepted into the lsb-base package, after a few revisions [16:28] <kirkland> james_w: hmm, I've only filed 2 Debian bugs of this type, and one other person filed 1 [16:28] <james_w> secondly, slangasek pointed out in one of the bugs (not in response to your patch) that Debian might like to look at this as a whole, rather than individual packages acting unilaterally. [16:29] <kirkland> james_w: that would be great! [16:29] <james_w> kirkland: I don't wish to criticise you. I'm bringing this up mainly as I got stung with this recently, and I thought that you may not be aware of these conventions. [16:29] <kirkland> james_w: there is a Debian policy bug against this that is many years old, actually [16:30] <james_w> kirkland: I didn't know that. [16:30] <kirkland> james_w: okay, thanks, i'll ping you offline about the best way to push this en masse to Debian [16:30] <kirkland> james_w: let me get you a bug #.... [16:31] <mathiaz> james_w: thanks for the warning [16:31] <kirkland> james_w: 2 of them... one from 2003: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=208010 [16:31] <ubottu> Debian bug 208010 in debian-policy "change =A710.4 "set -e OR check return status" to=" [Wishlist,Open] [16:31] <james_w> that works for me, I didn't want you to get flamed for trying to do the right thing. I think it's one area in our relationship with Debian that may be a bit neglected. [16:31] <kirkland> james_w: and this one from 2005: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=291148 [16:31] <ubottu> Debian bug 291148 in debian-policy "change =A710.4 "set -e OR check return status" to=" [Unknown,Open] [16:31] <mathiaz> let's move on [16:32] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Call for WP testers [16:32] <MootBot> New Topic: Call for WP testers [16:32] <kirkland> james_w: I have replied to the later, to no response in 1.5 months [16:32] <mathiaz> nijaba: ? [16:32] <ivoks> wp? [16:32] <nijaba> I have a few white papers that are coming out [16:33] <nijaba> There are on different subjects, such as automated deployment [16:33] <nijaba> or clustering mysql [16:33] <nijaba> before we go on publishing them, I'd love for some volunteers to proofread/test them [16:34] <mathiaz> nijaba: where/how will you publish the wp ? [16:34] <ivoks> nijaba: me [16:34] <nijaba> they'll be published on the ubuntu web site as pdf once they are ready [16:34] * sommer volunteers [16:34] <nijaba> as they target corporate customer [16:34] <nijaba> whome have a hight tendancy not to trust wikis [16:35] <zul> do they need real hardware or can they use a vm for testing it [16:35] <ivoks> nijaba: i'd like mysql clustering and redhat cluster suite, if available [16:35] <mathiaz> nijaba: ok [16:35] * nijaba blames his keyboard for typos [16:35] <nijaba> ivoks: RHCS: still in the works, but I'll write you down for mysql [16:36] <mathiaz> nijaba: for the testing phase, is there a list of available wp ? [16:36] <mathiaz> nijaba: how should potential testers notify their interest in doing a review ? [16:36] <ivoks> nijaba: if you need help with rhcs, ping me... [16:36] <nijaba> mathiaz: atm, I have 2, 3 mores are coming, I'll inform the commuity when they are ready [16:36] <nijaba> ivoks: I will point ShangWu to you then [16:37] <nijaba> ivoks: he is the one doing all the work [16:37] <ivoks> nijaba: we already established a contact [16:37] <nijaba> ivoks: great [16:37] <mathiaz> nijaba: so as of now, what do you expect ? [16:38] <mathiaz> nijaba: should people send you an email in they're interested ? [16:38] <mathiaz> nijaba: for the mysql cluster and redhat cluster wp [16:38] <nijaba> mathiaz: volunteers to test automated deployments and mysql clustering WP [16:38] <mathiaz> nijaba: ok - they should send you an email ? [16:38] <nijaba> yes, email would be perfect [16:38] <mathiaz> nijaba: great [16:39] <mathiaz> let's move on [16:39] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server survey, Intel interested to partner [16:39] <MootBot> New Topic: Server survey, Intel interested to partner [16:39] <mathiaz> nijaba: ? [16:39] <nijaba> soren, as we are still waiting for IS to provide a host for the survey [16:40] <nijaba> more people are getting aware that we are gearing up for it [16:40] <nijaba> Intel contacted me last week, asking if they could join in [16:40] <mathiaz> nijaba: in which format would this work out ? [16:41] <nijaba> as we already agreed for RedMonk as an analyst firm, I told them I would haveto ask for your opinion first [16:41] <mathiaz> nijaba: RedMonk - didn't know about it [16:41] <nijaba> mathiaz: I think they want to add a hardware related question [16:42] <nijaba> mathiaz: we did not know the name of them, but that's whom the analyst firm we talked about is [16:42] <mathiaz> nijaba: ok - so Intel would join in [16:42] <nijaba> mathiaz: I do not know, what do other think? does it make sense? [16:42] <mathiaz> nijaba: we'd add a question about hardware, and they would ... ? [16:43] <ivoks> it does make sense [16:43] <nijaba> they would blog about it, allow us to use their logo... whatever we me reasonably think of... [16:43] <nijaba> s/me/may [16:44] <mathiaz> nijaba: as long as they can help us getting more exposure and getting people to take the survey, I'm ok with it [16:44] * nijaba blames his keyboard even more [16:44] <macd> SOunds like very good exposure [16:44] <nijaba> any objections? [16:45] <ivoks> no objections, just be careful [16:45] <sommer> sounds like a good idea to me [16:45] <mathiaz> nijaba: nope - the more exposure we have, the better [16:45] <nijaba> ivoks: I know, I worked for them [16:46] <ivoks> nijaba: there are people runing ubuntu-server on other chips too, so no one wants to create impression that ubuntu is great with intel, but not so great with others [16:46] <nijaba> ivoks: sure, I'll make sure their question is "vendor neutral" [16:46] <mathiaz> nijaba: could you come up with the question you wanna add to the survey and ask for review here ? [16:46] <nijaba> and if amd wants to join, they are welcome [16:47] <nijaba> mathiaz: I will, for sure [16:47] <ivoks> nijaba: or sun [16:47] <nijaba> ivoks: right [16:47] <mathiaz> [ACTION] nijaba to write up a question related to hw and submit it for review to the rest of the server team [16:47] <MootBot> ACTION received: nijaba to write up a question related to hw and submit it for review to the rest of the server team [16:47] <mathiaz> let's move on [16:47] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] RAILS integration [16:47] <MootBot> New Topic: RAILS integration [16:48] <mathiaz> macd: ? what's the status [16:48] <macd> mathiaz, waiting on passenger to get in [16:48] <mathiaz> macd: IIRC there was some more discussion about the issue on rubygems in after last week meeting [16:48] <macd> NeilW rolled a new package that contains the fixes we talked about last week [16:49] <mathiaz> macd: NeilW: I'll review the passenger package [16:49] <macd> mathiaz, I was around for most of that, NeilW can be more elaborate on what the exact issue is [16:49] <NeilW> There are a number of things that Ubuntu needs to do to get Rails working. [16:50] <NeilW> At the moment pratically everybody ignores the apt packages and just installs everything via RubyGems. [16:50] <NeilW> That's for a few reasons; [16:50] <NeilW> Firstly, the current Rubygems package doesn't place gem installed binaries on the path. [16:50] <NeilW> So the likes of Capistrano just doesn't work. [16:51] <macd> Most people use Cap to deploy/configure their apps [16:51] <NeilW> Secondly the apt packages in place don't integrate with the rubygems database. [16:51] <macd> So its a pretty important point [16:51] <NeilW> So gem will pull in a second copy of Rails on top of the apt package [16:51] <NeilW> and chaos ensues. [16:51] <persia> Could apt-installed packages put something in the gems DB in the postinst? [16:52] <NeilW> persia: That's how to fix it - but the packages we're getting from Debian don't do that. [16:53] <NeilW> You don't even need postinst. You just install a marker file in a particular place. [16:53] <NeilW> Gem will then see it as installed. [16:53] <NeilW> Finally there is no real decision on how Ubuntu/Debian is going to handle the Ruby1.8 to Ruby1.9 transition. [16:54] <NeilW> Gem is integral to Ruby1.9, but has been removed from the ruby package. [16:54] <NeilW> and a new gem package created that handles both versions. [16:55] <NeilW> unfortunately gem1.8 and gem1.9 don't really know about each other and they will clash if you try and point their binaries at the same place. [16:55] * ivoks waves... it's 35C in this room [16:56] * nijaba takes a slice of a well roasted ivoks [16:56] <mathiaz> NeilW: are you discussing this issue with the debian maintainers ? [16:56] <mathiaz> NeilW: if so where ? [16:57] <NeilW> I've discussed the point with Lucas who I think is trying to move Debian away from their current stance on Rubygems. [16:57] <mathiaz> NeilW: we try to follow debian whenever we can [16:57] <mathiaz> NeilW: great. [16:58] <NeilW> Yes I know. [16:58] <mathiaz> NeilW: however if things are totally broken we're ready to make changes [16:58] <NeilW> I think you may have to take the lead in this case. My feeling is that there is an impasse. [16:59] <mathiaz> NeilW: it may worth trying to describe what would be the proper way of doing things from a end user perspective [16:59] <macd> Is there a point where we decide to no longer merge/sync a package from upstream and decide to maintain it totally at this level? [16:59] <mathiaz> macd: well it depends on the situation and if we have the man power to do it [16:59] <mathiaz> macd: gnome is such an example [16:59] <NeilW> apt-get install rails-server [17:00] <NeilW> It's my dream. [17:00] <mathiaz> macd: but we have a gnome maintainer in the ubuntu project [17:00] <mathiaz> NeilW: right - if you could start a wiki page to outline what it would be like [17:00] <macd> I think we can stick that on the rails spec page? [17:00] <NeilW> I thought we already had one? The Rails spec. [17:00] <mathiaz> NeilW: especially the interaction between rubygems and the installed package [17:01] <mathiaz> macd: NeilW: yes - you can use the rails spec. [17:01] <macd> We have what changes need to happen, bugs filed against them, some packages rebuit to fix it [17:01] <macd> not sure what else needs to happen here [17:01] <mathiaz> macd: ok - so may *I* should go back to the Rails spec and have a look at it [17:01] <mathiaz> macd: *may be* I [17:01] <macd> I gotcha ;P [17:02] <mathiaz> macd: I'll have a look at the spec page [17:02] <NeilW> mathiaz: What would you do with such a description. How does the descision process work? [17:02] <mathiaz> NeilW: I'll reply to your email [17:02] <NeilW> ok? [17:02] <mathiaz> NeilW: we should probably move the discussion to a public mailing list to get more input on that [17:03] <mathiaz> NeilW: it would help me to grasp the problem - may be it's already there and I just haven't read the wiki page lately [17:03] <mathiaz> NeilW: I'll reply to your email and we'll take it from there. [17:03] <macd> can you CC server ML? [17:03] <mathiaz> macd: will do [17:03] <macd> and we can get it all on there [17:04] <NeilW> Thanks [17:04] <mathiaz> @schedule [17:04] <ubottu> mathiaz: Schedule for Etc/UTC: 31 Jul 14:00: Mentoring Reception | 31 Jul 16:00: Ubuntu Mobile | 02 Aug 13:00: Xubuntu Community | 03 Aug 18:00: Mozilla Team | 05 Aug 22:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 20:00: Maryland LoCo IRC [17:04] <macd> looks like were clear for almost a year [17:05] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open discussion [17:05] <MootBot> New Topic: Open discussion [17:05] <mathiaz> anyone wants to add something ? [17:06] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time [17:06] <MootBot> New Topic: Agree on next meeting date and time [17:06] <mathiaz> same place, same time, next week ? [17:07] <sommer> sure [17:07] <nijaba> If anyone is in san francisco next week, come and say hi at our linuxworld booth! [17:07] <mathiaz> all right then [17:07] <nijaba> and please accept my apologies for next week meeting, as I'll be stuck there I beleive [17:08] <mathiaz> see ya all next week, same time, same place [17:08] <mathiaz> thanks all for coming [17:08] <sommer> nijaba: heh sounds awful [17:08] <mathiaz> #endmeeting }}}