Ubuntu Wiki

(16:01:32) Keybuk: so let's get started
(16:01:35) cbx33: Fujitsu, yikes...Iget up at that time every day
(16:01:37) Keybuk: a few ubuntu-dev candidates today
(16:01:40) robitaille [n=daniel@ubuntu/member/robitaille] entered the room.
(16:01:47) Fujitsu: Where a few == 3, I believe.
(16:02:00) Keybuk: q-funk, Fujitsu, cbx33
(16:02:11) mdz: morning
(16:02:15) ajmitch: morning
(16:02:15) Keybuk: though it seems Martin isn't around
(16:02:33) zul: afternoon
(16:02:33) Keybuk: if anyone can ping him via other means, do so
(16:02:41) Keybuk: Fujitsu: that means you're up first; please introduce yourself
(16:02:53) dholbach: q-funk is not on irc.gnome.org either
(16:03:02) Fujitsu: OK.
(16:03:23) Fujitsu: I'm William Grant, from Melbourne, Australia.
(16:03:34) Fujitsu: I've been hanging out with the MOTU for a few months now, and started helping out about 3 months ago.
(16:04:01) Fujitsu: In that time, I've handled a lot of syncs and merges, as well as a few new upstream versions, and some bugfixes.
(16:04:21) Fujitsu: In the future I'd like to mainly help LaserJock and co. with MOTU Science, and help with Debian collaboration.
(16:04:45) Fujitsu: Er, that's the end :P
(16:05:05) Keybuk: tell us about MOTU Science
(16:05:10) Keybuk: what kinds of thing is that aiming to bring to Ubuntu
(16:05:57) mdz: Fujitsu: who has been uploading your changes for you?
(16:06:00) Fujitsu: Well, there are already quite a few new science packages in Ubuntu that aren't yet in Debian.
(16:06:18) Fujitsu: mdz: Primarily crimsun, but Hobbsee, LaserJock, Gloubiboulga to start.
(16:06:35) Fujitsu: And MOTU Science aims to make Ubuntu a viable alternative for scientists
(16:06:37) dholbach: people from ubuntu-universe-sponsors know his mail address quite well - although crimsun is always quicker.
(16:06:40) Keybuk: crimsun can't be here today, but has mailed in his advocation for you
(16:06:40) bddebian: hmm
(16:06:49) Fujitsu: Goodo, Keybuk.
(16:07:25) Keybuk: how do you think Debian collaboration can be improved?
(16:07:51) bddebian: Boy, that's a loaded question ;-)
(16:08:01) Fujitsu: Well, I was talking with a Debian developer just yesterday, I hadn't spoken to him before.
(16:08:33) Fujitsu: He said that he didn't really like the automated Ubuntu patch submission, and that he'd generally handle patches only when a bug had been filed.
(16:08:39) slomo [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] entered the room.
(16:08:40) Fujitsu: I think this needs to be worked on.
(16:08:50) Fujitsu: Because I believe a lot of DDs have the same attitude.
(16:09:05) Fujitsu: (although some obviously have a much more negative one)
(16:09:18) Keybuk: do you think DDs would be happy about adding a further 65,000 bugs to their BTS?
(16:09:37) Keybuk: how would they react to those that are clearly Ubuntu specific, or clearly duplicates?
(16:09:44) Fujitsu: I'm not quite sure, but I know most aren't happy to just have a big monolithic patch...
(16:09:52) Fujitsu: Keybuk, that's what needs to be figured out.
(16:10:00) Fujitsu: At the moment, MoM just sends everything.
(16:10:19) Fujitsu: Even if it's Ubuntu-specific, or a duplicate, whatever.
(16:10:38) Fujitsu: And some of the deltas are /gigantic/, and DDs are unlikely to work through those.
(16:11:07) Fujitsu: I'm not sure exactly the best way to go about improving collaboration, but it needs to be done.
(16:12:09) Keybuk: arguably the difficulty in sending useful patches back is a fault of Debian for having a fucking-stupid(tm) source package format and manager ... but I won't digress further :p
(16:12:23) Fujitsu: Maybe true.
(16:12:37) Fujitsu: For example, the guy I was talking to yesterday maintains 915resolution.
(16:12:42) Keybuk: as a MOTU, all the work you will be doing in universe increases this divergence from Debian
(16:12:49) Fujitsu: I know, yes.
(16:12:51) Keybuk: how will you balance this with your desire to improve collaboration?
(16:13:03) LaserJock: Keybuk: "all"?
(16:13:23) Keybuk: LaserJock: anything that's not a sync request
(16:13:32) Fujitsu: Divergence isn't mutually exclusive with collaboration.
(16:13:50) LaserJock: Keybuk: pushing patches back is part of MOTU work as well
(16:13:53) Fujitsu: I would, where feasible, submit appropriate bugs in the bug tracker for the package in Debian, if the fixes indeed applied to Debian too.
(16:13:56) Fujitsu: LaserJock, exactly.
(16:13:57) ogra: LaserJock, ++
(16:14:05) Fujitsu: (just not a whole lot of people push them back)
(16:14:17) bddebian: Bite your tongue
(16:14:18) LaserJock: minimizing and maintaining divergence is the MOTUs work
(16:15:12) Keybuk: ok
(16:15:16) Keybuk: mjg59, mdz : any questions?
(16:16:02) Keybuk left the room ("夠荒唐").
(16:16:09) Keybuk [n=scott@quest.netsplit.com] entered the room.
(16:16:09) mdz: he'll brb
(16:16:10) Keybuk: oops
(16:16:13) cbx33: heh
(16:16:14) Fujitsu: Yes, oops :P
(16:16:31) mdz: LaserJock: what do you think is the most important area where Ubuntu needs improvement today, technically speaking?
(16:16:34) mjg59: LaserJock: How do you think we can encourage scientific users to use Ubuntu?
(16:16:40) bddebian: Tell him he can't get in unless he does azureus ;-)
(16:16:41) Fujitsu: Er, me, you mean?
(16:16:42) mjg59: (Oops - go with mdz first)
(16:16:47) mjg59: Erm
(16:16:50) mjg59: Yes, Fujitsu
(16:16:53) LaserJock: heh, I'm not the one going for MOTU today ;-)
(16:16:54) mdz: Fujitsu: yes, sorry
(16:17:03) Fujitsu: Aha, good...
(16:17:04) ogra: LaserJock, say education :P
(16:17:12) slomo left the room (quit: "Ex-Chat").
(16:17:25) LaserJock: ogra: of course ;-)
(16:17:29) ogra: *g*
(16:17:50) Fujitsu: Well, actually, I agree with ogra. There is an enormous lacking of educational Free software. gcompris is one thing, but there's an enormous void in the education sector.
(16:17:54) Fujitsu: But science is also lacking.
(16:18:13) mdz: Fujitsu: there is a lack of such software, or a lack of it in Ubuntu?
(16:18:26) Fujitsu: mdz, there is a lack of such software in the FOSS community in general.
(16:18:41) LaserJock: mdz: lack of good software with good licenses :/
(16:18:44) cbx33: Fujitsu, ++
(16:18:46) Fujitsu: LaserJock, exactly.
(16:18:59) Keybuk: how is that solvable by the MOTU?
(16:19:11) LaserJock: MOTU Science keeps track of 400+ packages
(16:19:16) mdz: Fujitsu: while we occasionally develop new software in-house, Ubuntu as a project is primarily about integration, bringing together the software which is available
(16:19:19) Fujitsu: Well, there are some things that are not yet packaged (in science moreso).
(16:19:47) Fujitsu: mdz, noted, but there is some more stuff we can package, especially in science.
(16:20:22) minghua: there is always chance to introduce some software unavailable in debian into ubuntu multiverse first
(16:20:22) slomo [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] entered the room.
(16:20:22) Linuturk_code left the room (quit: "Ubuntu pwns you (www.ubuntu.com)").
(16:20:36) pygi: minghua, multiverse??!
(16:20:47) pygi: why would you put free/open source stuff in multiverse?
(16:20:52) ***pygi stops now
(16:20:55) mdz: Fujitsu: that is what MOTU science is doing today, yes?
(16:20:56) LaserJock: because it isn't free
(16:21:07) minghua: pygi: yes, some scientific software has non-DFSG-free licenses
(16:21:11) Fujitsu: mdz, yes.
(16:21:21) Fujitsu: mdz, as well as maintaining well over 400 packages.
(16:21:29) minghua: pygi: and there are just no alternatives
(16:21:44) pygi: minghua, ah, then somebody should make sure alternatives are produced :)
(16:21:58) mdz: Fujitsu: that is a lot of packages. how do you keep track of them all?
(16:22:06) LaserJock: mdz: me ;-)
(16:22:11) mdz: there are only about 10 members of motuscience
(16:22:12) lukketto left the room.
(16:22:18) cbx33: heheh LaserJock's brain holds the key ;)
(16:22:21) Fujitsu: mdz, yeah, LaserJock does a lot, but I keep track of quite a number.
(16:22:25) Fujitsu: mdz, most of them aren't MOTUs.
(16:22:26) mdz: LaserJock: how do you track bugs for them?
(16:22:36) Fujitsu: mdz, the subscribed bugs page.
(16:22:39) mdz: I noticed that motuscience isn't a bug contact for any packages
(16:22:46) Fujitsu: mdz, yes we are...
(16:22:50) mdz: ah, never mind, wrong page
(16:22:51) LaserJock: for all 400+
(16:23:00) mdz: it's not a *maintainer* of any packages, but it is a bug contact
(16:23:06) Fujitsu: Otherwise it would just be impossible to manage :P
(16:23:10) Fujitsu: mdz, yes.
(16:23:14) LaserJock: I also maintain a list using lucas's scripts
(16:23:22) mdz: LaserJock: lucas's scripts?
(16:23:27) Fujitsu: MultiDistroTools.
(16:23:29) ogra: m-science is a very valuable source for information for edubuntu btw ...
(16:23:33) LaserJock: http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/motuscience/all.html for instance
(16:23:42) minghua: yes, we track a lot of packages, and from what I see, motu-science is very responsive to bug reports
(16:23:52) minghua: and a lot of credits goes to Fujitsu
(16:23:54) Fujitsu: Yes, LaserJock's lists are incredibly useful, and make managing the large number of packages sane.
(16:23:59) LaserJock: but we need MOTUs in MOTU Science
(16:24:03) LaserJock: :-)
(16:24:03) Fujitsu: Thanks, minghua :)
(16:24:09) Fujitsu: LaserJock, there are 3 at the moment, no?
(16:24:18) LaserJock: minghua, tritium, and myself
(16:24:24) LaserJock: although bddebian is an honorary member
(16:24:33) ***bddebian was feeling left out :-)
(16:24:36) mdz: LaserJock: it looks a bit like packages.qa.debian.org
(16:24:53) minghua: (and I am not active during edgy release, that should change for edgy+1)
(16:24:53) LaserJock: mdz:mhm
(16:25:16) LaserJock: mdz: I also track the difference between Ubuntu and Debian in terms of packages they don't have
(16:25:29) LaserJock: mdz: we tend to loose a lot of new Debian packages
(16:25:52) LaserJock: http://tiber.tauware.de/~laserjock/motuscience/ud_diff.html
(16:26:08) mdz: ok, thanks for satisfying my curiosity, though we're digressing a bit
(16:26:12) rodarvus: LaserJock: you really mean 'loose' or lose?
(16:26:13) mdz: anything further for Fujitsu?
(16:26:18) Keybuk: nothing from me
(16:26:19) Keybuk: mjg59: ?
(16:26:20) Fujitsu: Like, I went through the list of packages in Debian and not Ubuntu a couple of days ago, and there are 32 new ones, though 12 are in contrib/non-free.
(16:26:22) mjg59: I'm happy
(16:26:23) LaserJock: rodarvus: one of the 2 ;-)
(16:26:25) Keybuk: ok votes
(16:26:32) mdz: +1 from me
(16:26:36) mjg59: +1
(16:26:36) Keybuk: +1 from me, have seen a fair bit from Fujitsu
(16:26:42) Keybuk: Fujitsu: congrats
(16:26:50) Fujitsu: Yay :)
(16:26:50) Fujitsu: Thanks :)
(16:26:52) dholbach: congratulations Fujitsu
(16:26:57) bddebian: w00t, congrats Fujitsu
(16:26:57) lfittl: congrats Fujitsu
(16:26:58) cbx33: congratulations Fujitsu
(16:26:59) rodarvus: Fujitsu, congratulations!
(16:27:00) YukiCuss: \o/ Fujitsu
(16:27:06) ogra: congrats Fujitsu !
(16:27:08) mjg59: cbx33: Want a go?
(16:27:14) cbx33: mjg59, sure
(16:27:15) ***ogra cheers
(16:27:20) cbx33: I'm Pete Savage, aka cbx33, I'm currently working as an IT manager at a school in Southampton UK. I became an Ubuntu/Edubuntu Member about a month after helping out in the Edubuntu community. Originally working on a few bug fixes and documentation.
(16:27:20) cbx33: Recently I have been working a lot more on developing applications and completing specifications. I recently completed the Student Control Panel spec, as well as writing gisomount, and working on development of grasynco and gallium
(16:27:20) cbx33: I would love to get into more packaging, and hope to attend the UDS, where I can gain a better insight into the development process. I would like to develop and package more educational applications for Edubuntu and would one day hope to become a core-dev.
(16:27:23) ***pygi cheers also :P
(16:27:51) mjg59: cbx33: So who have you been working with in Ubuntu so far?
(16:27:59) ***rodarvus cheers too
(16:28:08) cbx33: ogra, LaserJock, rodarvus, pygi
(16:28:10) mdz: cbx33: are you the same pete savage who contributed the sound theme, or a different one?
(16:28:11) cbx33: many many people
(16:28:15) cbx33: mdz, I am indeed
(16:28:16) ogra: cbx33, was the greatest edubuntu developer in the edgy cycle ... he started learning pythion and basic packaging at the beginnign of the cycle and actually finished student-control-panel and packaged it ...
(16:28:37) ogra: as well as his other stuff (gisomount etc)
(16:28:49) Keybuk: cbx33: who has been doing uploads for you so far?
(16:28:52) Keybuk: have you done many?
(16:28:53) cbx33: ogra, mainly
(16:28:56) pygi: cbx33 did a marvelous job really....
(16:28:58) cbx33: and LaserJock too
(16:28:59) ogra: it was very very impressing seeing him getting to speed so fast
(16:29:22) cbx33: Keybuk, total number of pacakges?
(16:29:41) cbx33: 4
(16:29:41) LaserJock: He was also my first proofreader *cough*victim*cough* for the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
(16:29:42) ogra: (on a sidenote the new edubuntu artwork and the ubuntu sounds are also from him, done aside the development he did for us)
(16:29:45) rodarvus: cbx33 has contributed code, new packages, ideas for edubuntu, and is very helpful & interested, generally speaking
(16:30:07) pygi: rodarvus, don't forget sounds and artwork :)
(16:30:09) YukiCuss left the room ("Leaving").
(16:30:14) rodarvus: pygi, yes, that too
(16:30:25) mjg59: cbx33: So what would yo
(16:30:26) mjg59: Oops
(16:30:28) mdz: cbx33: is Ubuntu the first free software project you've been involved with?
(16:30:42) cbx33: mdz, I tried to get involved with Fedora at one point
(16:30:57) cbx33: but found the community to be rather eliteist
(16:31:16) cbx33: after using ubuntu for about 2months I decided to give the ubuntu community a try
(16:31:22) cbx33: as Edubuntu fitted in so well with my work
(16:32:00) cbx33: I also started try ing to create a distro, Devenix
(16:32:17) cbx33: which was goign to be an entire php development studio on a USB stick....bootable anwhere....
(16:32:31) cbx33: but this has taken a backseat as Ubuntu is so much fun to work on ;)
(16:33:02) mdz: cbx33: what made the Ubuntu community different?
(16:33:08) cbx33: (incidentlt Devenix started as a knoppix prototype but will now be Ubuntu)
(16:33:18) cbx33: mdz, primarily the attitude
(16:33:42) cbx33: you can get to speak to the "real" people developing things.....not just people using them
(16:33:50) cbx33: and people are very ready to help you out
(16:34:18) cbx33: I remember first going into the motu channel after wanting to find out more about creating a customized live CD, bddebian and dholbach were the first two people I spoke to in ther
(16:34:21) mdz: cbx33: what kind of difficulties did you have trying to do the same in fedora?
(16:34:36) mdz: was it harder to locate the right people?
(16:34:41) cbx33: for a start the activity was low, and the technical knowledge seemed lacking
(16:35:06) cbx33: people here either know the answer, can point you to the right doc....or ask you to write the doc when youre done ;)
(16:35:30) cbx33: and if people don;t know the answer they tell you
(16:35:35) cbx33: as opposed to just ignoring you
(16:35:49) cbx33: I don;t feel like a little fish here.....I feel like I actually contribute :D
(16:36:20) mjg59: cbx33: So you're planning on continuing in much the same way that you currently are?
(16:36:20) mdz: cbx33: in what way do you feel that joining MOTU will help you in your work?
(16:36:45) cbx33: mjg59, yes, but getting much more involed in pacakging
(16:36:59) mjg59: cbx33: Have you done much packaging so far?
(16:37:00) cbx33: hopefully helping LaserJock out more in MOTU science
(16:37:11) mjg59: Rather than simply working on existing packages?
(16:37:34) cbx33: mjg59, I have done a small amount of pacakging, but I hope people find my pacakges well presented and compelte
(16:37:37) ogra: mjg59, he did some from scratch and took over student-control-panel from me which i sponsor for him for main
(16:38:01) ogra: the quality was excellent, even the amount wasnt big yet
(16:38:04) LaserJock: mjg59: I also helped him learn how to package with is own upstream product gisomount
(16:38:11) cbx33: LaserJock, ++
(16:38:14) LaserJock: mjg59: but I found I really didn't need to help him
(16:38:21) mjg59: Ok, sounds good
(16:38:22) cbx33: hehe
(16:38:34) cbx33: LaserJock, it was your great docs ;)
(16:38:37) mdz: Keybuk: anything further?
(16:39:01) Keybuk: nothing from me
(16:39:04) ogra: cbx33, btw a good comunity doesnt only consist of people helping you, its also a matter how you ask your questions ;)
(16:39:15) cbx33: ogra, noted
(16:39:16) ogra: its a two way thing ;)
(16:39:24) cbx33: of course ;)
(16:39:30) mdz: ok, votes
(16:39:58) mjg59: +1 based on testimony and impressive contributions so far
(16:40:03) mdz: +1, thanks for your contributions
(16:40:23) Keybuk: +1, I think in any circumstance where you haven't got skills so far, you know where and who to ask and how to help others learn after you
(16:40:27) pygi: congrats cbx33 :)
(16:40:31) rodarvus: cbx33, congratulations!
(16:40:33) cbx33: w00t....thank you everyone
(16:40:36) ***ogra hugs cbx33
(16:40:39) dholbach: congratulations cbx33
(16:40:40) Fujitsu: Congratulations, cbx33!
(16:40:41) ogra: well deserved !
(16:40:44) bddebian: w00t go cbx33
(16:40:48) ***cbx33 hugs............everyone
(16:40:51) Keybuk: I don't believe q-funk has arrived
(16:40:57) mdz: cbx33: congratulations and welcome
(16:41:02) cbx33: thank you mdz
(16:41:04) mjg59: Do we have any other business?
(16:41:10) Keybuk: and I'm not aware of any people pending ubuntu-core-dev membersjip
(16:41:28) mdz: we need to clear out the ubuntu-dev proposed members list
(16:42:18) Keybuk: what's the procedure for doing that?
(16:42:19) mdz: what's needed is to email each applicant and find out what their status is
(16:42:24) Keybuk: get dholbach to mail them?
(16:42:31) dholbach: I mailed each and everyone of them
(16:42:35) dholbach: (that had a public mail address)
(16:42:53) dholbach: and notified mdz of everyone of them mailing me back
(16:42:54) mdz: dholbach: so these are the ones who did not respond?
(16:43:00) dholbach: yes
(16:43:27) Keybuk: shall we decline them all, they will get a mail as a result
(16:43:30) mdz: dholbach: if you can confirm the dates when you mailed them, I'll expire the applications
(16:43:40) Adri2000 left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
(16:44:02) dholbach: I usually do it the day or the next day I work, but yeah - I can compile a list and double-check
(16:44:04) Keybuk: mdz: there's a mass-decline facility now
(16:44:14) LaserJock: heh
(16:44:17) Keybuk: we should do the same for core-dev
(16:45:24) mdz: dholbach: it would be good form to note the date of the mail in the message when they're declined; I wouldn't want to accidentally decline someone inapporpriately
(16:45:43) dholbach: ok, i'll mail you the list tomorrow
(16:46:01) mdz: dholbach: no big hurry, it can wait until after beta
(16:46:08) mdz: sometime before the next TB meeting
(16:46:19) dholbach: ok
(16:46:24) bddebian: Yeah, whack me :-)
(16:46:24) ogra: just dont wipe sbalneav, he just applied ;)
(16:46:29) sbalneav: :)
(16:47:18) mdz: ok, I think we're done
(16:47:24) mc44_: I just had a quick question; re: mozilla/debian trademark business, I gather some ubuntu people are talking to Mozilla about this, would it be possible for someone to send a mail to -devel about whats happening/or when a decision is made, to clarify the situation?
(16:47:44) mdz: mc44_: I have a dialog with Mike Connor at Mozilla on this issue
(16:48:04) mdz: that's all there is to say so far; if there's news, I'll mail -devel
(16:48:14) mc44_: mdz, great, thanks
(16:48:18) mdz: last email was yesterday
(16:48:30) poningru [n=poningru@ip70-171-62-28.ga.at.cox.net] entered the room.
(16:48:35) mdz: ok, thanks everyone
(16:48:37) mdz: adjourned