09:03 mdz         good morning
   09:03 hub         raphink: I paid nothing when I had them
   09:03 ajmitch     morning mdz
   09:03 raphink     hi mdz
   09:03 sivang      morning mdz
   09:03 raphink     hub: you mean Free ?
   09:03 hub         raphink: glitch in the systeme
   09:03 lucas       sivang: it doesn't seem to be on ubuntu-motu
   === StevenK pays $55AUD for 1.5Mbit
   09:03 hub         raphink: yeah
   === StevenK waves to mdz.
   09:03 mdz         I'm assuming that sabdfl isn't going to be able to make it
                     due to travelling
   09:03 raphink     hub: :D :D
   09:03 hub         hey mdz
   09:04 elmo        mdz: safe bet
   09:04 sivang      that wouldn't be a first timer  :)
   09:04 raphink     hi elmo
   09:04 hub         hey elmo
   09:04 Keybuk      raphink: I have ADSL now ... and that's what's not working
   09:04 ajmitch     where is sabdfl travelling to this week?
   09:04 raphink     Keybuk: ic
   09:04 mdz         looks like we have a full agenda
   09:04 Keybuk      raphink: I need to get something other than ADSL to have a
                     reliable net connection
   09:04 raphink     ajmitch: the moon?
   09:04 ogra        ajmitch, asia tour ?
   09:04 sivang      ajmitch: asia somewhere I think
   09:04 ajmitch     right
   09:04 Keybuk      mdz: does sabdfl ever make it even when he's not
                     travelling? :)
   09:04 hub         Keybuk: cable?
   09:04 mdz         Keybuk: sometimes, yes
   09:05 sivang      Keybuk: lol :) there were a couple of times IIRC
   09:05 mdz         so let's get started
   09:05 mjg59       Ok
   09:05 raphink     ok
   09:05 Keybuk      hub: no cable in my area, annoyingly
   09:05 mjg59       What order are we doing things in today, then?
   09:05 hub         Keybuk: :-/
   === cheche [] has joined
   09:05 mdz         I figure the order on the wiki is as good as any
                     hub: the alternative is for an ISP to actually takeover
   09:05 Keybuk      the line from the exchange to my house and repair it ...
                     BT won't do it
   09:05 sivang      pitti's sudo stuff first
   09:06 mjg59       Cool. Core candidates.
                     it looks like there are a few people who have proposed
   09:06 mdz         themselves for ubuntu-core-dev who haven't otherwise
                     appeared in the community
   09:06 mjg59       dsaa isn't here, anyone know anything about the other two?
   09:06 ajmitch     no core candidates who are motus already afaict
   09:06 raphink     mjg59: I'd say at least one core candidate...
   09:06 mdz         dholbach: are you around?
   09:06 dholbach    yes
   09:06 dholbach    I will mail them.
   09:07 mdz         dholbach: at a previous meeting, you helped us with
                     contacting these folks and explaining
   09:07 mdz         dholbach: could you make that a todo item for the monday
                     before each TB meeting?
   09:07 dholbach    Ok.
   09:07 mdz         thanks
   09:07 Keybuk      what are/should we do about the backlog of existing ones?
   09:07 Keybuk      didn't we talk about removing people if they failed to
                     come to meetings/
   09:07 mdz         dholbach is going to mail them, and then we'll remove them
   09:08 mdz         we agreed that folks should apply for MOTU before core
   09:08 Keybuk      hmm, we could do with a "notes" field for each person
                     btw, a quick note. I'm at the office now, I hope that
   09:08 hub         nothing preempt my sitting at this keyboard for the
   09:08 Keybuk      yeah
   09:08 mjg59       Right. developer candidates?
   09:08 raphink     yep
   === lucas is, too
   === hub is applying for motu too
   09:08 raphink     :)
   === StevenK three
   09:08 raphink     3 french people at least :)
   09:09 mjg59       sivang, hub, lucas, raphink, vuntz, StevenK, anyone else?
   09:09 mdz         mjg59: were any candidates processed at the meeting I
   09:09 raphink     StevenK: that's four :)
   09:09 mdz         I'm not sure which of those in the queue are new and which
                     are stale
   09:09 StevenK     I added myself two days ago or so.
   09:09 mjg59       mdz: I think we deferred a couple, it was a while ago now
   09:09 hub         raphink: I consider myself Canuck now
                     I saw in the last TB meeting's log that vuntz said he
   09:09 lucas       didn't have enough time to join the team, and he asked to
                     be removed from the list. did he change his mind ?
   09:09 raphink     hub: oh ok ;)
   09:09 dholbach    lucas: I think not.
   09:09 raphink     hub: you're still french-speaking though
   09:10 sivang      I'm stale , I need to do more MOTU contribs before this
                     can be evaluted again.
   09:10 mdz         mjg59: so that was what, 2005-12-20?
   09:10 mjg59       mdz: Yup
   09:10 Keybuk      mjg59: we definitely processed some at the last TB meeting
   09:10 dholbach    sivang and vuntz can be safely removed.
   09:10 mdz         that gives us:
                     jjmmma   Lucas Nussbaum   Kiew   Dino Solon A. Agcambot
   09:10 mdz         Hubert Figuiere   Raphal Pinson   Manu Cornet
                     freeflying   Steve Kowalik
   09:10 sivang      dholbach: thanks
   09:10 mdz         hub, lucas, StevenK are here
   09:10 mdz         anyone else?
   09:11 raphink     mdz: i'm here too
   09:11 lucas       raphink is Raphal Pinson
   09:11 mdz         ok
   09:11 raphink     ty lucas
   09:11 mdz         looks like lucas is up first
   09:11 lucas       ok
   09:11 mdz         lucas: care to tell us a bit about yourself and what
                     you've been up to?
                     I've prepared a wiki page to summarize my candidacy. It's
   09:11 lucas       probably faster. See
            if you
   09:12 Keybuk      ooh, shiny
   09:12 lucas       24 years old, french, phd student in CS
   09:12 mdz         I've noticed you've done quite a bit of wiki content
   09:12 hub         I don't have a summary for my candidacy
   09:12 lucas       I've been working on MOTU-related stuff and debian
                     collaboration stuff
   09:13 lucas       (like working with raphael hertzog to start flamewars :/)
   09:13 raphink     hub: me neither ;)
   09:13 raphink     lucas: hehe
   09:13 mdz         heh
   === StevenK only has his wiki page.
   09:13 raphink     StevenK: you're not the only one so that's fine ;)
   === ogra likes the hot discussions he has with lucas in -motu :)
   09:14 mjg59       lucas: So what Ruby stuff have you actually been doing so
   09:14 ogra        and lucas is definately very encouraged and around a lot
                     all day ...
   09:14 lucas       in Ubuntu, just a few merges that were needed
   09:14 mjg59       Is stuff being significantly altered inside Ubuntu, or is
                     it mainly helping to merge stuff from Debian?
   09:14 lucas       in Debian, packaging of stuff I'm upstream for (feed2imap,
                     libfeedparser-ruby, libxmpp4r-ruby)
   09:15 lucas       merging stuff only
   09:15 mjg59       Ok, cool
   09:15 mdz         lucas: which parts of MultiDistroTools are your work?
   09:15 lucas       mdz: everything
   09:15 raphink     lucas also provided a nice web interface to work with
                     merges more easily lately
   09:15 mdz         nice work
   09:15 lucas       mjg59: since I have 'contacts' with debian ruby
                     maintainers, it's easier to keep the divergence low
   09:16 raphink very useful :)
                     lucas: you note on your wiki page that you aren't sure
   09:16 mdz         you'll be able to contribute in the long term.  do you
                     care to elaborate?
   09:16 lucas       I'm sure I'll be able to contribute on the long term.
   09:16 lucas       what I'm not sure of, is whether I'll be able to do
                     general MOTU work on the long term (merge/syncs)
   09:17 lucas       however, I hope to be able to help when the backlog is
                     quite big, for example
   09:17 Keybuk      is this because of an expected lack of time, or other
   09:17 lucas       yeah, lack of time, as always
   09:17 mdz         lucas: I see that you're in the Debian NM queue
   09:17 lucas       working more on Ubuntu means working less on other
                     projects or my thesis ;)
   09:17 Keybuk      but you believe you have time now?
   09:17 lucas       yeah, I have
                     lucas: how does your intention to join Debian fit into
   09:18 mdz         your strategy for improving collaboration between the
   09:18 lucas       hehe a timeline is needed here
   09:18 lucas       beginning of the summer: I start packaging stuff inside
                     pkg-ruby-extras debian team
   09:19 lucas       then, I get on NM, since you better start early
   09:19 lucas       then I discovered the bad state of ruby in breezy (that
                     was in september)
   09:19 lucas       so I got involved into MOTU
                     I've been using Ubuntu since, but when
   09:20 lucas       everything looks fine, you don't feel the need to get
   09:20 lucas       (that's all)
   09:21 lucas       ;)
   09:21 mdz         thanks
   === LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
   09:21 lucas       I don't think I'll be a DD soon, become of the average
                     time you usually spend in NM
   09:21 mdz         would anyone like to say anything further about lucas'
                     involvement with MOTU so far?
   09:21 sistpoty    as orgra already pointed out, lucas has been very
                     encouraged on motu-issues
   09:21 lucas       being a DD probably help with debian collaboration, but
                     it's mainly human issues currently, as I see it
   === tseng [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
                     lucas's MDT have been quite helpful, along with
   09:22 crimsun     sistpoty's, in the Dapper merges. I use them both
   09:22 mdz         mjg59,Keybuk: I think that's sufficient discussion;
   09:22 Keybuk      agree
   09:22 sistpoty    oh, yep. he did really rocking work with it
   09:22 mjg59       mdz: Yup
   09:23 mdz         votes?
   09:23 mjg59       +1 from me
   09:23 sivang      crimsun: are they a better incarniation of the motu-tools
   09:23 mdz         +1
   09:23 Keybuk      +1 also
   09:23 dholbach    Welcome lucas!
   09:23 lucas       :-) thank you all.
   09:23 ogra        sivang, nope, another set of tools
   09:23 mdz         lucas: welcome
   09:23 sistpoty    welcome lucas :)
   09:23 ogra        welcome lucas
   09:23 raphink     :D
   09:23 mdz         hub: you're next
   09:23 hub         ok
   09:24 StevenK     That sounded omnious.
   09:24 mdz         StevenK: ;-)
   09:24 mdz         hub: you maintain abiword?
                     though I haven't seen many packages from hub (didn't have
   09:24 sistpoty    time to review more), what I've seen was very clear and
                     good packaging
   09:25 Keybuk      hub was at UBZ, iirc.
   09:25 ogra        mdz, he's upstream :)
   09:25 hub         mdz: as upstream, I'm one of the maintainers, yes
   09:25 mdz         Keybuk: yes
   09:25 Keybuk      came to several of my BOFs
                     I'm very happy with hub's contributions. He worked on a
   09:25 dholbach    bunch of photo tools and libraries, he works well with
                     upstream, his packaging improved over the weeks, and I'd
                     personally be very happy to have him on board.
   09:25 hub         Keybuk: I was
   09:25 ajmitch     he even hosted a drinking BOF there
   09:25 ogra        at home :)
   09:25 hub         ajmitch: and pizza BOF
   09:25 dholbach    Yeah  :)
   09:25 mdz         hub: do you have any specific interests or plans for
                     Ubuntu contributions that you can tell us about?
   09:25 sivang      hub: in UBZ ? :)
   === ajmitch found hub's packaging to be of good quality, and he's been
   persistent with it
   09:25 mjg59       hub: Your Launchpad page doesn't go into too much detail -
                     what have you been up to in Ubuntu?
   09:26 hub         mdz: currently I'm trying to focus on providing various
                     tools for digital photography
   09:26 hub         and I have a bunch of packages still pending on REVU
   09:26 ogra        carrying over your knowledge from gnome  ? :)
                     hub is the well known photo tools guy in gnome ... and i'm
   09:27 ogra        really happy he wants to take such tasks in ubuntu as well
   09:28 hub         ogra: I'm not espacially gnome centric for the tools
   09:28 mdz         hub: you organized MOTUPhoto?
   09:28 hub         mdz: I creat the team
   09:28 mjg59       hub: So, do you think it's possible to provide a "just
                     work" atmosphere for the photography field?
   09:28 hub         created
   09:28 ogra        hub, they are not QT based :)
   09:28 hub         mjg59: that is my goal. Have the tools ready for use
   09:28 mdz         hub: what is your opinion of f-spot?
   09:29 hub         mdz: f-spot is a great user app
   09:29 hub         I installed Mono just for that reason
   09:29 hub         I'm talking regularly with lewing, the upstream developer
                     what do you think is the best way to get photo
   09:29 mdz         functionality to Just Work in Ubuntu, as it does on the
                     Mac platform?
   09:30 hub         mdz: enhance libgphoto2 to work even more seemlessly
   09:31 hub         and have the application use it for everything
                     currently we launch gthumb when a camera is attached, but
   09:31 mdz         I have never been very happy about its level of
   09:31 mdz         I launched it just now and it crashed during startup ;-)
   09:31 hub         hew
   09:31 hub         I'll check that
   09:31 raphink     hehe
   09:31 janimo      mdz, use a stable distro :)
   09:31 Mithrandir  my main gripe with gthumb is that it's slow and
   09:31 hub         I don't really work this way
   09:31 hub         maybe I should try it harder
   09:31 ajmitch     Mithrandir: so is f-spot at times
   09:31 hub         Mithrandir: f-spot is faster IMHO
   09:32 mdz         hub: what way do you mean?
   09:32 ajmitch     reminds me, I should upload 0.1.7 now
   09:32 hub         I use a card reader, pop the card in, copy the files
                     I'd like f-spot's "new startup and import" feature to
   09:32 Keybuk      actually infer information from my carefully constructed
                     hierarchy of directory names
   09:32 Keybuk      right now it imports my thousands of photos and gives me
                     that "now you have to tag them" look
   09:32 mdz         hub: yes, that's what I do as well.  however, I'd like to
                     make things work well for a broader class of users
   09:32 ogra        Keybuk, you can switch to directory view
   09:32 Mithrandir  ajmitch: I don't want photo apps to "manage my
                     collection", I want to look at pics.
   09:32 Keybuk      ogra: that kinda defeats the point though, especailly if
                     you now import new things with f-spot and tag them
   09:33 ajmitch     quickly getting OT :)
   09:33 mdz         we needn't get into too much detail right now, though
   09:33 mdz         ajmitch: ;-)
   09:33 mdz         mjg59,Keybuk: satisfied with the amount of discussion?
                     mdz: I must admit that it is the best user case to have a
   09:33 hub         program the ask about importing the pictures form the
                     camera when you connect it
   09:33 pitti       hub: that's what shuold happen ATM
   09:33 Keybuk      yup, I'm good
   09:34 mdz         pitti: it does, but gthumb has some issues
   09:34 hub         I had plans to write a "gnome-photo-importer"
   09:34 mjg59       mdz: Yup
   09:34 pitti       hub: g-v-m asks about importing and calls gthumb if the
                     user wnats
   09:34 mdz         ok, votes?
   09:34 Keybuk      +1 from me
   09:34 hub         to copy  the picture automatically
   09:34 mdz         +1
   09:34 mjg59       +1
   09:34 mdz         hub: congratulations
   09:34 ajmitch     welcome, hub :)
   09:34 raphink     :)
   09:34 hub         pitti: yeah, but mdz just said it was crashing
   === pitti welcomes hub
   09:34 hub         mdz: thanks
   09:34 ogra        hub,
   09:34 mdz         hub: and now I have to go and file a proper bug report
                     after the meeting ;-)
   09:34 ogra        hub, could need a python rewrite ;)
   09:34 Keybuk      mdz: good luck!
   09:34 ogra        hub, and welcome
   09:34 hub         ogra: eh
   09:35 mdz         raphink: you're up
   09:35 raphink     OK I have prepared a 4 paragraphs intro to paste ;)
   09:35 hub         ogra: I'd rewrite it in C++ :-/
                     I got involved in MOTU things mostly by packaging new
                     stuff for Ubuntu (mostly KDE packages) in october. My work
                     in Ubuntu is documented on
   09:35 raphink . I haven't really
                     had the time to change the motivation part that I put
                     before being a member, but it sums up why I want to be a
                     MOTU, too.
   09:35 dholbach    Excellent, hub!
                     After packaging for some time and putting my packages on
                     REVU, I noticed the queue was pretty slow on REVU, and
                     wanted to help a bit. So I reviewed some packages myself
   09:35 raphink     and sent the comments to the packagers, forwarding them to
                     some MOTUs. After I did that with a few packages, I was
                     given review rights on REVU and have been using it so far
                     to review more directly on the website.
   09:35 ogra        hub, fine as well
   09:35 raphink     I have also contributed to syncing/merging packages,
                     although not as much as packaging/reviewing.
                     Finally, I have been working on the MOTU related
   09:35 raphink     documentation on the wiki, mostly on the REVU page, on the
                     packaging and reviewing tips, and more recently on
                     creating a Debian contribution page together with lucas.
   09:35 mdz         raphink: that's great, it seems like REVU always needs
                     more reviewers
   09:36 raphink     I do my best :)
   09:36 lucas       (url: )
   09:36 raphink     ty lucas
   09:36 mdz         Riddell: any feedback on raphink's involvement with
   09:36 ajmitch     yes, us existing MOTUs don't do enough reviewing to keep
   09:36 raphink     mdz: now it would help even more if I could advocate and
                     upload packages too
   09:36 sistpoty    raphink did some very nice kde packages, and his reviews
                     are of good quality
   09:36 mjg59       raphink: What sort of packages do you plan on uploading?
   09:37 raphink     mjg59: I mean being able to upload the advocated packages
                     from REVU
   09:37 raphink     right now i can only criticize the packages on REVU
   09:37 mjg59       raphink: Ok, cool
   09:37 raphink     put comments and so on
   09:37 raphink     but when I feel they're ready
   09:37 mjg59       Any plans for independent packaging?
   09:37 raphink     i can't do more than just telling the guy to ask a MOTu
   09:37 raphink     mjg59: I have 8 packages in Dapper already
   09:37 mjg59       Excellent
   09:37 raphink     I also have my own project on alioth
   09:38 raphink     which is called Ichthux
   09:38 raphink     it's a CDD aimed to christians
   09:38 raphink     when i began it I didn't know much about Debian systems
   09:38 raphink     so it's a bit stalled right now
   09:38 raphink     but I plan to improve it and get the packages in Debian
                     and Ubuntu in the future maybe
   09:38 raphink     just as Debian Jr. or Debian Med
   09:39 ogra        or edubuntu, xubuntu ;)
   09:39 raphink     yep exactly ;)
   09:39 mdz         raphink: are you a Debian developer or in the NM queue?
   09:39 raphink     no i'm not
   09:39 raphink     I considered it a few months ago
   09:39 raphink     and didn't do it at the time
   09:39 raphink     and then got involved in Ubuntu
   09:39 raphink     I haven't considered applying for DD seriously any
   09:40 raphink     and I still need to get my packages in Debian
   09:40 mdz         well, becoming a DD would be the ideal way to get your
                     packages into debian, of course ;-)
   09:40 raphink     thankfully I know some DDs who can sponsor my work, within
   09:40 mdz         oh, good
   09:40 raphink     yes mdz I know that :)
   09:40 raphink     this is future plans :)
   09:40 raphink     right now I have to have Ichthux administrated by a DD on
   09:40 raphink     since they wouldn't let a non-DD rule it
   09:41 raphink     SynrG has been my mentor even since april actually
   09:41 raphink     and now co-administrates Ichthux on alioth withme
   09:41 raphink     :)
   09:42 raphink     (yes I can witness there are very nice DDs around that
                     like Ubuntu even if not involved in it :))
   === janim1 [] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
   09:42 sivang      raphink: Ben is very nice indeed :)
   09:42 raphink     sivang: :)
   === HiddenWolf [] has joined
   09:43 mdz         dholbach,ogra: anything to say?
   09:43 ogra        raphink, is very busy in the motu world and around every
                     day since some weeks ...
   09:44 ogra        err, months ?
   09:44 dholbach    mdz: I was very happy, when he jumped into REVUing and
                     looking at his packages made me happy too.
   09:44 raphink     ogra: time goes by :)
                     I've been working with raphink on some merges/syncs and
   09:44 lucas       some documentation. He has really been hyperactive those
                     last weeks. I really enjoy working with him. His work has
                     always been of high quality.
   09:44 ogra        in any case he's a good teamworker
   09:45 dholbach    And he helped actively to respond to questions in the
   09:45 ogra        ...and would be very valuable for motu
   09:45 mdz         mjg59,Keybuk: ready?
   09:45 mjg59       Yup
   09:46 mdz         votes
   09:46 mjg59       +1 form me
   09:46 Keybuk      yup
   09:46 mdz         +1 here
   09:46 dholbach    raphink: welcome to the team!
   09:46 raphink     :D
   09:46 raphink     ty :)
   09:46 ogra        congrats raphink
   09:46 mdz         raphink: welcome aboard
   === dholbach hugs raphink, lucas, hub
   09:46 sistpoty    raphink: congrats
   09:46 Keybuk      +1 from me
   09:46 ajmitch     well done, welcome
   09:46 raphink     thanks ogra && sistpoty :)
   === lfittl [] has joined
   09:46 raphink     :) :)
   09:47 mdz         StevenK: ready?
   09:47 StevenK     Yup.
   09:47 StevenK     Well, as much as I can be.
   === raphink is proud to be in a nice team as the MOTU one :)
   09:47 mdz         I'm familiar with your work in Debian, thanks for that
   === StevenK squints from mdz's spotlight.
   === hub hugs dholbach
   09:47 mdz         and I see you've done some uploads to Ubuntu recently; who
                     has sponsored those for you?
   === ajmitch has done some
   09:47 StevenK     Multiple MOTUs, notably Mithrandir, ajmitch and \sh.
   === crimsun has as well
   09:48 StevenK     crimsun: Oh, I didn't see you there.
   === sistpoty also sponsored some
   09:48 StevenK     See, many?
   09:48 ogra        :)
   09:48 ajmitch     from what I can tell, he certainly knows what he's doing
   09:48 sistpoty    I can't really say anything about his skillz... I'd need
                     higher skills myself to rate StevenK's ;
   09:48 sistpoty    +)
   09:48 mdz         StevenK: given your background you're obviously familiar
                     with packaging practices ;-)
   09:48 StevenK     Hell, I wrote a package checker.
   09:48 StevenK     :-)
   09:48 mdz         right
   09:49 Mithrandir  SK++
   09:49 StevenK     Er, am writing one.
   09:49 Keybuk      StevenK: yes, could you not do that again :)
   === StevenK grins.
   === Burgwork [] has joined
   09:49 mdz         StevenK: how did you become interested in contributing to
                     Ubuntu directly?
   09:49 sivang      lol, but she has a nice name :)
                     fwiw, I've been happy with what I've seen from SK, both
   09:50 Mithrandir  technically; he knows his ropes well as well as socially,
                     helping other people in -motu.
   09:50 ogra        ++
                     Apart from that, I was amazed by how fast and well he
   09:50 dholbach    integrated into the team and worked with the processes we
                     have and helped others to get into the MOTU world as well.
   09:50 ogra        (especially for the last part ++)
                     mdz: I've been curious about Ubuntu since Hoary or so, and
                     a few months ago (I think), I tried a live CD, and was
   09:51 StevenK     impressed. I started hanging out in -motu and helping out.
                     A week later I installed Breezy and dealt with the culture
                     shock from moving from unstable to well, stable.
   09:51 ogra        lol
   09:51 Mithrandir  StevenK: you should try the new live cd.  Much faster and
   09:51 ajmitch     and you couldn't bear not dist-upgrading, so you went to
   09:51 mdz         mjg59,Keybuk: we're running a bit long already; any
                     questions you'd like to ask StevenK?
   09:51 StevenK     That's actually on my TODO list.
   09:51 ogra        if you dont use ppc :P
   09:52 pitti       StevenK: just install dapper to get the nice cozy feeling
                     of brokenness again :)
   09:52 Keybuk      StevenK: how will you balance working on Debian and for
   09:52 Keybuk      s/for/on/
   09:52 sivang      pitti: not too much though :)
   09:52 StevenK     Keybuk: Ignore Debian and work on Ubuntu? Seems to be
                     working for now.
   09:52 StevenK     In all seriousness, most of my packages in Debian take
                     care of themselves.
   09:53 ogra        wow, how did you manage that ?
   09:53 raphink     pitti: hehe
   09:53 StevenK     Either I'm upstream, or the upstream release very slowly.
   === ogra glares at the pieces of xscreensaver in front of him and envys
                     StevenK: so you're interested in working on a different
   09:53 mdz         set of packages in Ubuntu, then?  any particular area of
                     focus that interests you?
   09:54 StevenK     Not any particular area. I'll fight for interesting
                     packages to merge/sync, but I'll work on anything.
   09:54 StevenK     It's just packaging, and packaging is fun.
   09:54 raphink     :)
   09:54 mdz         ok, any further discussion?
   09:55 Keybuk      so, out of interest, why would you want to do this work
                     for Ubuntu and not for Debian?
   09:55 mjg59       I don't think I've got any relevant questions
   09:55 StevenK     Mainly because the work ethic in Ubuntu is much nicer.
   09:55 ogra        :)
   09:55 StevenK     I've become a little upset by Debian recently.
   09:56 mdz         it's easier in a small organization
   09:56 StevenK     Reading -{private,devel,project} has become a chore.
   09:56 mdz         we'll have to face many of Debian's problems as time goes
                     on, I expect
   09:56 mdz         hopefully with the benefit of Debian's experience, but
                     face them nonetheless
   09:56 ajmitch     the MOTU team will inevitably run into scalability issues
   09:56 StevenK     ajmitch: I thought we had already? :-)
   09:56 ajmitch     StevenK: we have the problem of too few still
   09:57 ajmitch     once we get too many, other issues show up :)
   09:57 mdz         ok, need to move on to the discussion topics on the agenda
   09:57 mdz         votes?
   09:58 Keybuk      ++
   09:58 mdz         +1 from me based on Debian history, recent uploads and
                     feedback from MOTU
   09:58 mjg59       +1
   09:58 dholbach    Welcome to the team StevenK!
   09:58 mjg59       Cool
   09:58 StevenK     Thanks!
   09:58 mdz         StevenK: congrats
   09:58 pitti       StevenK: welcome
   09:58 ogra        yay, welcome StevenK !
   09:58 mdz         pitti: still awake?
   09:58 mjg59       pitti: Sudo help? Could you outline what that actually
   09:58 pitti       mdz: barely :)
   09:58 pitti       yes
                     The problem: we want to make it easier for first-time
   09:58 pitti       Ubuntu users to find out about the root whereabouts, since
                     it's a FAQ.
                     currently proposed idea: sudo writes a stamp
                     (~/.sudo_admin_successful, or whatever) if the user ran
   09:58 pitti       sudo successfully, and a snippet in /etc/profile gives a
                     short help message ('Use "sudo <command>" to execute a
                     command as root') as long as the stamp file does not
   09:59 pitti       (NB that this was not *my* proposal)
   09:59 sistpoty    congrats StevenK :)
   09:59 pitti       some people (Mithrandir, fabbione) did not really like
                     this approach, both principally, and technically
   09:59 mdz         this was sabdfl's proposal, which he discussed with me
                     I propose to discuss the general approach first before we
   09:59 pitti       come down to the implementation; Mithrandir, what would
                     you propose instead?
                     hmm, to me, if a user opens a Terminal and doesn't know
   09:59 Keybuk      how to become root -- or where to look in order to know,
                     they probably shouldn't be trying to be root
   09:59 mdz         the goal of this approach is to inform the user about sudo
                     as soon as we know that they are a command-line user
   09:59 mjg59       This could presumably be compared to how BSDs used to have
                     "Don't login as root, use su"?
   10:00 mdz         Keybuk: the target audience are the folks who are used to
                     other distributions
   10:00 mdz         but not sudo
   10:00 pitti       but many users already know what a 'root' user is and what
                     it is for, and they seem to miss it in Ubuntu
   10:00 pitti       so we need to nudge them itno the right direction
   10:00 Mithrandir  pitti: write a pam module to echo out "you need to use
                     sudo" if they call su -
   10:00 Keybuk      if we _really_ must have something like it, I'd suggest
                     bringing back the "Root Terminal" menu item
   10:00 mdz         mjg59: yes, but don't they display that in motd or
   10:00 Keybuk      maybe shoving it under System->Administration
   10:00 pitti       Mithrandir: that was my original idea, too
   10:00 mjg59       mdz: Only if you logged in as root
   10:00 mdz         this would be less disruptiev in that it would go away
                     once they've used sudo
   10:00 sivang      maybe this could be made so that only users who are
                     allowed to sudo see it?
   10:00 mdz         mjg59: ah
   10:00 mdz         sivang: yes, that was part of the proposal
   10:01 sivang      opos, sorry :-/
   10:01 Mithrandir  pitti: of course, only if root was disabled.  If root's
                     enabled, it should be quiet.
   10:01 mdz         Keybuk: the trouble is that users are accustomed to
                     opening a terminal and using su
   10:01 pitti       Mithrandir: sure
   10:01 mjg59       Perhaps it would be more sensible to have *su* print it?
   10:01 pitti       I don't really like the 'root terminal' approach
   10:01 pitti       it might tempt people to use it for more tasks than
   10:01 Mithrandir  mjg59: implementation detail, really, but sure.
                     mjg59: that was my first answer to sabdfl, but feedback
   10:01 mdz         from the community has shown that users get confused
                     before that point
   10:02 mdz         they suddenly realize that they don't know the root
                     password, so su is hopeless
                     the only problem I see with my approach is that people
   10:02 Mithrandir  won't even try su - if they haven't punched in a root
   10:02 mjg59       mdz: Ah
                     given that, the proposal doesn't look all that bad to me.
   10:02 sivang      If I cannot sudo - the I won't see it. if I can, then I
                     should know the implications already.
   10:02 pitti       maybe we should add the su check if root is disabled
                     nevertheless? It doesn't interfere with the sudo help
   10:02 mdz         pitti: sure, it's orthogonal
   10:02 raphink     just jumping it, but can't people be better informed on
                     `sudo -i' ? if they want a su feeling?
   10:02 raphink     s/it/in/
   10:02 mjg59       raphink: It's more that they don't know they have to use
   10:03 pitti       yes, I forgot that part - that only affects members of
   10:03 raphink     mjg59: I get the point
   10:03 raphink     and it would be really dirty to link su to sudo -i ;)
                     raphink: we can fine-tune the text of the message as
   10:03 mdz         necessary; I think the open issue is whether the approach
                     is correct
   10:03 Mithrandir  a problem with the flag file is "what happens once the
                     user has used sudo once, then doesn't remember?"
   10:03 pitti       raphink: and wrong
                     I can understand the reasoning behind wanting to forcibly
   10:03 mjg59       instruct people, but I'm not sure uglifying every shell is
                     the best plan
   10:03 raphink     mdz: yes
   10:03 raphink     pitti: totally wrong ;)
   10:03 mdz         Mithrandir: we can lead them to the documentation, but we
                     cannot make them drink
   10:03 mjg59       Also, there's no reliable way for it to know if the user
                     can run sudo
   10:04 mdz         mjg59: for all new installations, the admin group serves
                     that purpose
   10:04 pitti       mjg59: no, we only want admin members
                     mdz: the message magically goes away after they've run the
   10:04 Mithrandir  command once.  There's no (visible) way for them to get it
                     mjg59: we specifically don't want messages for restricted
   10:04 pitti       sudo access (you still remember the information disclosure
                     discussion? :) )
   10:04 raphink     mjg59: all the more that sudo can be used for only some
   10:04 Mithrandir  mdz: it's really a horrible thing to do, UI-wise..
   10:04 mdz         Mithrandir: not only after they've run it, after they've
                     run it successfully
   10:04 raphink     mjg59: so that even a user who can use sudo might not be
                     able to use it for all things
                     mdz: I worry about the case where an admin knows enough to
   10:04 mjg59       fix sudo (say they have a local admin group that's used
                     for other purposes), but don't know where this message is
                     coming from
                     Mithrandir: to be concrete, if the sudo command and
   10:05 pitti       authentication was ran successfully (not if the runned
                     command was successful)
   10:05 mdz         mjg59: /etc/profile is a pretty reasonable place to look
   10:05 sivang      mjg59: we can state where this msg is coming from
                     somewhere else, and note that in the help msg itslef
   10:05 Mithrandir  pitti: sure, but it's still horrible from a UI POV.
   10:05 mjg59       mdz: I think that whichever way we go, people will be
                     unhappy about some aspect of it
   10:05 mdz         mjg59: agreed
   10:05 pitti       Mithrandir: well, there isn't much UI, what do you mean in
   10:05 mjg59       How does MacOS deal with this?
   10:06 mdz         but I think we can do better than we currently do
   10:06 mjg59       (I'm guessing that they just don't)
   10:06 mdz         mjg59: they ignore it, I think
   10:06 pitti       mjg59: they don't
   10:06 sivang      Mithrandir: horrible, but effective to close this pit in
                     which I personally saw many users fall into
   10:06 mdz         because their users don't expect to be able to use root
   10:06 pitti       mjg59: the  first time I saw macos, I didn't know how to
                     become an admin
   10:06 mjg59       What other things can also be done?
                     we're in a different boat because we get a lot of users
   10:06 mdz         who have enough experience with linux to be confused by
                     the difference in our configuration
   10:06 Mithrandir  pitti: You have a message which appears each time you open
                     a terminal.  You run sudo ls.  The message goes away.
   10:07 mjg59       What does the installer currently say during password
                     do I recall correctly, that there is a root-terminal icon
   10:07 sistpoty    somewhere in the default gnome install? maybe use that to
                     trigger some help?
   10:07 mdz         mjg59: it doesn't matter, nobody reads the text ;-)
                     Mithrandir: maybe we should just add it to
   10:07 pitti       /etc/skel/.bashrc and have the user remove it themselves
                     if they want?
   10:07 janim1      people may get preinstalled boxes
   10:07 pitti       mdz: ^
   10:07 ogra        Mithrandir, but you filter a good bunch of support
                     requests from the users which have read the message
   10:07 mdz         Mithrandir: what do you propose? something like what pitti
   10:08 mdz         "edit ~/.profile / /etc/profile / whatever if you don't
                     want to see this message anymore"?
   10:08 sivang      maybe we can use a dsktop notification instead of a
                     terminal msg?
   10:08 pitti       then existing users won't see it of course
   10:08 Mithrandir  mdz: I would like a pam module or have it not go away
                     automatically, yes.
   10:08 mdz         sivang: to what purpose?
   10:08 Mithrandir  pitti: existing users probably know about sudo. :-P
   10:08 ogra        shinyness :)
   10:09 ogra        sivang, that wont help you on a console
   10:09 sivang      err, right
   10:09 pitti       Mithrandir: right, that's why I think that this is not a
                     real flaw of the /etc/skel/.bashrc approach
   10:09 sivang      ogra: forgot we're not laways ona  console
   10:09 sivang      s/console/X/
   10:09 ogra        heh
                     mdz: the text in the installer *should* be improved, mind
   10:09 Kamion      you; and probably will once we get all the sudo stuff
                     integrated upstream
   === akk [] has joined
   10:09 Kamion      at the moment the installer doesn't really tell you
                     anything much
   10:10 sivang      true
   10:10 Kamion      pitti: /etc/skel/.bashrc applies to everyone, not just
                     admin users
   10:10 Kamion      would be pretty annoying on boxes with non-trivial numbers
                     of users
   10:10 pitti       Kamion: sure, but you can enclose it in an if..then
   10:10 pitti       i. e. check if he's an admin member
                     my opinion is that sabdfl's proposal is simple to try out,
   10:10 mdz         unsurprising for experienced users, and helpful to
                     intermediate users
   10:11 pitti       non-admins shouldn't ever see it anyway
   10:11 mdz         whether it will be annoying for too many users, that's
                     difficult to say
   10:11 mdz         it might even annoy me, but we won't really know until we
                     try something
   10:11 mjg59       Ok. How about we agree to do it for preview and then
                     potentially reconsider after that?
   10:11 sivang      we probably need to trail and error, that's all.
   10:11 mdz         Keybuk has notified me that his network connection is gone
   10:11 mdz         mjg59: that's reasonable for me
   10:12 pitti       can we have a voting about automatically removing the note
                     or not?
   10:12 mdz         sure, if you like
   10:12 pitti       if not, then we don't need to change sudo
   10:12 mjg59       I'm in favour of automatically removing the note.
   10:12 mdz         I'm in favor of automatically removing the note, rather
                     than forcing users to explicitly remove it
   10:13 mjg59       Ok. So we'll implement for preview, with automatic
                     removal, and see what sort of response we get?
   10:13 mdz         that's fine with me
   10:13 mdz         we know what sabdfl would say. ;-)  DO IT
   10:13 mjg59       Cool. Popcon?
   10:13 sivang      heh
   10:13 mdz         popcon
   10:13 lucas       yeak
   10:13 lucas       yeah
   10:13 lucas       1 min
   10:13 pitti       ok, grat
                     Status of popcon.u.c (LucasNussbaum, also see
                     [WWW]  thread on u-devel@): popcon.u.c hasn't been updated
   10:13 lucas       since June 2005. While it's mostly useless for main
                     packages (all users have the default set of packages
                     installed), it is very useful for universe to determine
                     wich packages should get the more attention.
   10:14 pitti       great
   10:14 mdz         it's broken and ought to be fixed.  is there any policy
                     decision to be made here?
                     Could popcon be fixed ? By whom ? How could we ask our
   10:14 lucas       users to enable it (u-d-a@ email, blog entries) ? (it is
                     disabled by default for obvious privacy reasons)
   10:14 mjg59       mdz: Default enabling mechanism
   10:14 mdz         we could add a checkbox to espresso
   10:14 ogra        having a gui to enable it would be rad to make users aware
                     of it ...
   10:14 Kamion      thom used to run popcon (by virtue of being sysadmin as
                     well), but no longer does
   10:15 Kamion      I don't think anyone's paid any attention to it at all
                     since he left
                     Is espresso going to have a "Put your email address here
   10:15 mjg59       if you want to receive updates about new versions of
                     Ubuntu" type thing?
                     elmo: what kind of privileges are necessary to run
   10:15 mdz         popcon?  is it something the sysadmin team needs to do, or
                     can it be handed off to a mere mortal?
   10:15 mdz         mjg59: not planned currently
   10:15 mjg59       If so, it would make sense to add something with a privacy
                     policy there
   10:15 elmo        mdz: it can and should be handed off
   10:15 lucas       I'd volunteer to take care of it, but it's probably a
                     'privilege' limited to employees ?
   10:16 Kamion      lucas: shell access to machines in general is, yeah
   10:16 mdz         elmo: I assume it requires shell access somewhere or
   10:16 elmo        mdz: yes
   10:16 elmo        it can't be community maintained, sorry
   10:17 ogra        didnt we have external vservers for community stuff
   10:17 elmo        is there really no one on the distro team who can fix it?
   10:17 elmo        I don't beleive it requires much in the way of maintenance
   10:17 mdz         elmo: yes, it's just a matter of appointing someone
   10:17 Mithrandir  can it be cronned?
   10:17 ogra        i'd take it ... but i'm not sure how time consuming it is
   10:18 mdz         is anyone who already has shell privileges familiar with
   10:18 Mithrandir  I've read the scripts, but I wouldn't consider myself
   10:18 Kamion      I've touched it, but am kind of busy
   10:18 ogra        i only inspected the client side when i worked on hwdb
   10:19 mdz         I expect that once it's fixed, it'll run quietly without
                     intervention for a long time
   10:19 mdz         Mithrandir: would you have a look and get it going again?
   10:20 Mithrandir  mdz: sure, I could do that.
   10:20 mdz         wonderful, thanks
   10:20 mdz         lucas: any outstanding issues then?
   10:20 Mithrandir  I'd need access to the box, but I'm sure that'll be
   10:20 Mithrandir  (I'll file an RT ticket)
   10:20 mdz         Mithrandir: yep
   10:21 mdz         there's a question about advertising it more
   10:21 mdz         I don't mind if someone sends an email to -announce
                     inviting users to participate
   10:21 lucas       mdz: no
   10:21 mdz         ok, let's move on then
   10:21 mdz         is jani here regarding Xubuntu?
   10:21 janim1      here
   10:21 dholbach    I can do that, once Mithrandir has fixed it.
   === christooss [] has joined
   10:21 mdz         dholbach: ok
   === dholbach hugs Mithrandir
   10:22 janim1      shall I start?
   10:22 mjg59       janim1: Sure
   10:22 mdz         janim1: please
   10:23 janim1      ok so I'd like if possible to have the same status for
                     xfce packages
   10:23 janim1      as for kde and gnome
   10:23 janim1      excempt from UVF
   10:23 mdz         janim1: KDE isn't exactly exempt, though it does sometimes
                     get exceptions
   10:23 janim1      I am taking care of them and debian is doing the same
   10:23 tseng       janim1: "exempt" is a bit of a strech
   10:23 mdz         janim1: the reason why gnome is treated specially is
                     because our releases are synchronized
   10:23 janim1      it was for breezy wasn;t?
   10:23 tseng       janim1: gnome has a strict schedule
   10:24 mdz         janim1: so we can be confident that they're stabilizing
                     when we need them to be stabilizing
   10:24 mdz         janim1: does xfce have a time-based release schedule?
   10:24 janim1      no
   10:24 janim1      they plan a stable release in Feb though
   10:24 mdz         if not, then we need to consider it on a case-by-case
   10:24 Keybuk      ok, I _think_ I'm back again (I hope)
   10:24 pitti       Keybuk: yes, you are :)
                     janim1: I have to ask for any excemptions for KDE uploads
   10:24 Riddell     after UVF, it has to be shown that they are bug fix only
                     releases and won't break anything
   10:25 janim1      ok, then I don;t want blanket permissions
                     Keybuk: while you were gone, we decided to rename the
   10:25 mdz         project to Schmoobuntu, and to have prospective developers
                     paint their faces blue
   10:25 janim1      just not too much hassle :)
                     I'm inclined to agree with mdz here, if XFCE doesn't
   10:25 Keybuk      follow our release cycle, we should consider it
                     individually each time
   10:25 mdz         janim1: I'm perfectly willing to consider exceptions for
   10:25 Keybuk      mdz: what about existing developers?
   10:25 janim1      thanks
   10:25 mdz         Keybuk: orange
   10:25 Keybuk      ah, the bad-fake-tan look :)
                     janim1: it will help a lot if upstream provides good
   10:26 mdz         changelogs and distinguishes between feature branches and
                     bugfix-only branches
   10:26 dholbach    Oh great! That's more like the hippie feeling I expected!
   10:26 janim1      so yes I was only talking about dapper and this upcoming
                     xfce not in general as it is with gnome
   10:26 tseng       on a similar note, I am hoping to track mono and gtk# past
   10:26 mdz         janim1: since we won't be able to spend time auditing
                     their code to see what kinds of changes we're dealing with
   10:26 janim1      mdz, yes they are working on a branch which becomes a
                     release shortly
   10:26 tseng       they both have bugfix-only branches open, as NLD time
                     schedule is pretty close to dapper atm
   10:27 tseng       and fixes will be backported for the next few months.
   10:27 janim1      mdz, I am willing to put in all the time needed for the
                     dozen or so packages
   10:27 janim1      and they have _no_ security record so far :)
   10:27 pitti       janim1: or rather, a good one :)
   10:27 janim1      ok :)
                     janim1: it might help if you communicated with upstream
                     that we are very disciplined about our release cycle and
   10:27 mdz         would like to cooperate with them to ensure that the right
                     changes get into Ubuntu, but need to be conservative in
                     what we accept as releases approach
   10:27 pitti       mdz: FYI, I ack'ed all the xfce packages for main
   10:28 dholbach    Wow.
   10:28 janim1      mdz, already contacted them in December and keep pestering
                     and controibuting
   10:28 ogra        in a row
   10:28 janim1      did the same with debian-xfce
   10:28 mdz         ok, so there is also the question of promoting XFCE to
   10:28 janim1      pitti, thanks btw, there's still thunar orage and exo
   10:28 janim1      :)
   10:28 pitti       janim1: oh, ok, will do them tomorrow
   10:29 pitti       janim1: they didn't sound xfce'ish
   10:29 janim1      yeah
   10:29 ogra        exo has an X in the middle :)
   10:29 pitti       mdz: however, before we actually promote them, we should
                     find a solution for langpacks
                     as with any other packages, if they meet our criteria and
   10:29 mdz         get signoffs from the right people, they're welcome in
   === mhz [n=mhz_chil@moinmoin/fan/mhz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
   10:29 mdz         pitti: are the translations very large?
   10:29 pitti       xfce has a fair number of translations, and we shuold
                     carefully consider where to put them
   10:29 janim1      pitti, yes langpack is something we need to figure out for
   10:30 pitti       i. e. put them into the main langpacks, or create xfce
                     specific ones
   10:30 janim1      pitti, I am willing to do the packaging whatevere is
                     required with your guidance
   10:30 pitti       janim1: do you happen to know how big a well translated
                     language is for xfce?
   10:30 mdz         pitti: I'm happy to leave that to your discretion based on
                     how large they turn out to be
   10:30 janim1      pitti, no idea
   10:30 pitti       janim1: nevermind, langpacks are created automaticlaly
   10:30 pitti       mdz: ok, I'll figure it out with jani
   10:31 mdz         ok
   10:31 mdz         the final xfce issue is CD builds
   10:31 janim1      yes
   10:31 ogra        pitti, do separate ones, else you 'll loose the advantage
                     of xfce's smallness
   10:31 janim1      this is a Kamion thing I suppose
   10:31 mdz         this is a tricky issue, because there is a tradeoff
                     between bottlenecks on busy people, and security
   10:31 janim1      whether the machines can handle the load
   10:31 Kamion      to some extent; other people can kick off builds, but
                     nobody else knows the relevant bits of the code as well
   10:31 mdz         it would be simplest for Kamion to do it, but he has a lot
                     on his plate
   10:32 pitti       ogra: no, you will want the general langpacks for xfce,
   10:32 pitti       ogra: just not the gnome and kde ones, but you don't need
                     to install them
   10:32 ogra        pitti, yup
                     I will need to do seed admin, but somebody else could
   10:32 Kamion      probably manage the necessary code changes by
                     clone-and-hack, and I can review them
   10:32 janim1      I am again willing to do the work if it's ok security-wise
   10:32 Kamion      the load issues are better now than they were last time we
   10:32 janim1      great
                     mdz: I'd be ok with helping Kamion out wrt cd builds,
   10:33 Mithrandir  since I'm fairly involved in at least the live part
   10:33 janim1      so good it could build daily images?
   10:33 ogra        me too
   10:33 Kamion      janim1: basically the only issue now is disk space, but I
                     can probably squeeze you in
   10:33 ogra        at least i'd like to be able to kick off my edubuntu
                     builds myself
   10:33 mdz         Mithrandir: I'm happy for you to have access to little for
                     that purpose
   10:33 janim1      Kamion, thanks
   10:33 pitti       janim1: I look forward to trying an xfce live cd :)
   10:33 janim1      pitti, me too honestly :)
   10:33 sivang      janim1: me too :)
   10:33 Kamion      other people with cdimage access are mdz, infinity,
   10:33 mdz         ogra: likewise
   10:34 ogra        thanks :)
   10:34 Kamion      live CD work requires help from lamont or infinity
   10:34 mdz         I think there are a lot fewer gotchas now than there used
                     to be
   10:34 mdz         as far as triggering CD builds
   10:34 mdz         Kamion: any concerns there?
   10:34 Mithrandir  can we get remote triggering of the live fs builds??
   10:34 Kamion      mdz: nope; I need to brief each person on a few things
                     they need to do first and need to know, that's all
   10:34 Mithrandir  s/.$//
   10:34 Kamion      Mithrandir: I have it ...
   10:34 mdz         as do I
   10:34 Kamion      it's just an ssh key thing, if lamont/infinity trust you
   10:34 mdz         it's just a matter of adding new keys if more people need
   10:35 Mithrandir  mdz: ok.
   10:35 Kamion      Mithrandir should clearly have that for casper
                     development, IMO
   10:35 mdz         definitely
   10:35 Kamion      how do we want to manage xfce seeds?
   10:35 mdz         Mithrandir: I'll mail lamont/infinity and ask them to take
                     care of that
                     I'm usually fine, since infinity is up far too late for
   10:35 Mithrandir  his own health, but it would be nice not to rely on
                     somebody 10 time zones away.
   10:35 mdz         how are xfce seeds being managed so far?
   10:35 elmo        err
   10:35 janim1      Kamion, as you wish
   10:35 janim1      I keep them on localhost :)
   10:36 Kamion      janim1: in revision control?
   10:36 janim1      but will move them public when needed
   10:36 janim1      bzr branch of ubuntu-seeds
   10:36 mdz         janim1: oh, good
   10:36 Kamion      ok, if you could make those public, we can publish them on
   10:36 mdz         janim1: please do mirror your bzr branch publicly
   10:36 janim1      Kamion, ok will let you know tomorrow
                     however we will need to be able to change them; I (and
   10:36 Kamion      others) relatively often make changes which need to be
                     applied quickly to all derivatives
   10:37 janim1      then should we keep them under ~cjwatson ?
                     so maybe we can come up with some PQM arrangement or
   10:37 Kamion      something, or just merge requests if we can guarantee low
                     they certainly have to be mirrored under ~cjwatson/seeds/
   10:37 Kamion      for everything to work (bus problem? moi?) but that can
                     just be a mirror
   10:37 Kamion      if you're happy for me to ping you from time to time with
                     urgent merges, that's fine
   10:38 janim1      Kamion, I am fine with that
   10:38 Kamion      ok
   10:38 mdz         Kamion: you *so* did not just suggest PQM
   10:38 ogra        heh
   10:38 Kamion      mdz: pretend that my increased use of Launchpad due to
                     Malone is a bit like drug injection
   10:39 Kamion      causes hallucinations and fun stuff like that
   10:39 sivang      lol
   === Mithrandir chuckles
   10:39 mdz         janim1: bear in mind that we're doing a major
                     infrastructure migration for the package archive next week
   10:39 ogra        yes, malone can do that
   === slomo [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
   10:39 janim1      mdz, the soyuz thing?
                     janim1: so it's likely that we'll need to sort out a lot
   10:39 mdz         of issues there before we can do everything properly for
   10:39 mdz         janim1: yes
   10:39 janim1      should I wait till then?
   10:39 janim1      it's ok with me
   10:40 mdz         janim1: no, I'm just warning you that there will be delays
                     on our side due to that
   10:40 janim1      np
                     janim1: you already have cdimage and debian-cd checkouts
                     from my arch branches, right? if you could update those
   10:40 Kamion      and grep through for names of other derivatives (kubuntu
                     and edubuntu, chiefly), it should be relatively
                     straightforward to add xubuntu too
   10:40 mdz         janim1: what time zone are you in?
   10:40 janim1      Kamion, yes I have and will do
   10:40 janim1      UTC+2
   10:40 Kamion      oh, and 'find' as well as 'grep', there are some files
                     under debian-cd/tasks/ that need to be added
   10:40 janim1      eastern europe
   10:40 mdz         janim1: ok, that's pretty close to Mithrandir, so if he
                     can run your CD builds for you, that should work
   10:41 siretart    mdz: major infrastructure migration next week? does this
                     mean/include sync requests via soyuz?
   10:41 Mithrandir  mdz: are you mailing admins for ogra's and my access to
                     little or should I?
   10:41 mdz         siretart: it's going to affect everything
   10:41 mdz         Mithrandir: please do
   10:41 mdz         Mithrandir: I've mailed about livefs triggering
   10:41 mdz         we need to move on, we're pushing 2 hours
   10:42 mdz         janim1: any urgent concerns?
   10:42 janim1      mdz, nothing urgent
   10:42 mdz         ok
   10:42 janim1      thanks
   10:42 mdz         I don't really want to discuss this next item unless joeyh
                     is actually here to talk to us
                     there's still a very active discussion happening on debian
   10:42 mdz         mailing lists, and we're not ready to start implementing
                     changes on behalf of individual debian developers yet
   10:43 ogra        it was a misinterpretation of the mail imho ...
   10:43 mdz         stephan is not here, either, so I'd like to defer this
                     item if it's OK with Keybuk/mjg59
   10:43 janim1      Kamion, btw you're keeping cd-image in arch for now
                     instead of bzr?
   10:43 Keybuk      I agree, joeyh should come to the meeting
   10:43 pitti       janim1: the other way round
   10:43 mjg59       I'm fine with deferring this
   10:43 Kamion      janim1: I do plan to move it, but it's backed up behind a
                     million other things to do as usual
   10:43 mdz         ok
   10:43 Keybuk      likewise \sh
   10:43 mdz         mjg59: libpam-foreground?
   10:43 Keybuk      can somebody e-mail him to let him know that?
   10:44 siretart    I will talk to him
   10:44 mdz         siretart: thanks
   10:44 siretart    mdz: what CAN we actually implement?
                     mdz: there has been a suggestion that we could modify
   10:44 siretart    dpkg-genchanges/dpkg-buildpackage, is this really
   10:44 Kamion      madness
   10:44 mdz         siretart:
   === ogra thinks its not a question of implementing something, we have a
   10:44 siretart    I mean at binary package building time?
   10:45 Kamion      any kind of global changes in Maintainer fields require
                     changes in the archive
   10:45 elmo        Kamion: it does?
   10:45 Kamion      siretart: no, that's daft, Maintainer could be overridden
                     on the archive side if we were going to go that route
   10:45 mjg59       libpam-foreground needs to go in to the base installation
                     in order to let us do privileged hal operations sanely
   10:45 elmo        Kamion: how?
   10:45 elmo        Kamion: I think that's backwards
                     siretart: I outlined everything in that message, and the
   10:45 mdz         discussion is ongoing on debian-devel.  no need to discuss
                     it here until there's a decision to be made
   10:45 Kamion      elmo: if we don't want to touch all packages or do MADNESS
                     like hacking dpkg, yes
   10:45 elmo        Kamion: I think we have to hack dpkg
   10:45 Kamion      I don't see any other alternative
   10:45 mjg59       In order to do that, it needs to be in every interactive
                     login session
   10:45 elmo        Kamion: altering just the Packages file isn't sufficent
   10:45 Kamion      elmo: I think that's horrible and bad and wrong
   10:45 mdz         mjg59: libpam-foreground is something which now exists?
   10:45 siretart    mdz: so we defer this to the next meeting. ok
   10:45 mjg59       mdz: Yes
   10:45 Kamion      it's good enough for most purposes
   10:46 Mithrandir  can we have one discussion at a time, please? :-)
   10:46 mjg59       Now, I'm not too sure whether there's any consensus on
                     whta the best way to do that is
   10:46 Kamion      namely providing a contact for users using our package
                     management tools to see who the maintainer is
   10:46 mdz         siretart: indefinitely, until we actually have a proposal
                     from Debian about what they want us to do
   10:46 elmo        except package management tools like 'dpkg -I' :-P
   10:46 mjg59       We can add it to common-session, but that runs for
                     non-interactive sessions as well
   10:46 mjg59       (this may not make any significant difference)
   === Kamion cedes the floor to the other discussion
                     Actually, letting it run for non-interactive things as
   10:47 mjg59       well results in "nobody" having permission to do things
                     like shut down the machine
   10:47 mjg59       So that's probably not ideal
   10:47 mjg59       In order to fix this, we need to alter the semantics of
                     conffiles in /etc/pam.d
   10:48 mdz         mjg59: the basic idea is to grant special privileges to a
                     user who seems to be at the console?
   10:48 mjg59       mdz: When a user logs in, a file is created in
                     /var/run/console of the form username:vt_number
   10:48 mdz         could we address the issue of non-interactive logins
                     inside libpam-foreground itself?
   10:48 mjg59       mdz: I'm not sure if it gets that information
   10:48 mjg59       I can look into that
   10:48 mdz         it should get file descriptors
   10:49 mjg59       Ok
   10:49 mdz         since pam runs in-process (right?), I don't think it can
                     close them
   10:49 Mithrandir  pam is in-process, yes.
   10:49 mjg59       Ok. In that case we can probably do it without altering
   10:49 mdz         yay
                     mjg59: isn't the whole problem with "if you have console,
   10:49 Keybuk      you have more privilegs" that once you've been on the
                     console, you can stash a setgid binary and always have
                     those privileges?
   10:50 mjg59       Keybuk: No, because libpam-foreground doesn't grant you
                     any privileges
   10:50 Keybuk      or is this a different approach?
   10:50 mdz         Keybuk: it doesn't grant you any group memberships
   10:50 mjg59       It creates a file - that's all
   10:50 Keybuk      creates a file?
   10:50 mdz         it just records, in a trusted location, the fact that
                     you're on the console
   10:50 mdz         and other programs can use that information to
                     authenticate you
                     dbus checks whether that file exists when you send a
   10:50 mjg59       message, and optionally drops it if the user and vt don't
   10:51 mjg59       Ok. I'm happy with that.
   10:51 mdz         cool
   10:51 mjg59       Any other business?
                     mjg59: I hope you're creating the file with a
   10:51 Mithrandir  setuid/setgid helper?  The authentication stuff might not
                     run as root.  (think ssh)
   10:51 ogra        mjg59, reload the agenda ...
   10:52 mdz         ogra: that is not funny
   10:52 sistpoty    mjg59: I've added another point (at the beginning of the
                     meeting, sorry): UVF-handling for universe
   10:52 ogra        mdz, sistpoty added it ..
   10:52 mjg59       Mithrandir: No, it's created by the process. We don't want
                     it in the case of ssh, so that's no problem
   10:52 sistpoty    ogra: maybe you could talk about that?
   10:52 mdz         sistpoty: if it's quick, please ask, otherwise we need to
                     defer to the next meeting
   10:52 mdz         we already had a backlog and have been here for a long
   10:53 ogra        we talked about general proxies as we had in breezy for
                     uvf exception requests
   10:53 ogra        in our motu meeting
   10:53 ogra        the question was just to whom these proxie people should
                     talk to
   10:54 siretart    escp. if sync requests are going to go via soyuz
   10:54 ogra        (i'm guessing Kamion and mdz as usual, but motu wants
                     names :) )
   10:54 pitti       mjg59: the main use case is that X creates the file,
   10:54 mdz         ogra: still us, yes
   10:54 ogra        oki
   10:54 mdz         is that all?
   10:54 siretart    mdz: wait
   10:54 ogra        sistpoty, thats ok with you for the proxy stuff ?
   10:54 siretart    mdz: we shall bug you about EVERY package in universe for
                     UVF exception?
   10:54 mdz         soyuz isn't going to change anything immediately regarding
   10:55 mjg59       pitti: Yes
   10:55 ogra        siretart, thats what the proxies are for  ...
   10:55 mdz         siretart: isn't the purpose of the proxies to batch and
                     filter the requests?
   10:55 siretart    argl, sorry I was misreading
   10:55 ogra        they must decide how critical it is
   10:55 mdz         ok
   10:55 mdz         we need to close
   10:55 mdz         for general health and sanity
   10:55 raphink     hehe
   10:55 sivang      indeed
   10:55 ogra        :)
   10:55 sistpoty    :)
   10:55 siretart    :)
   10:56 mdz         I'll flush the agenda shortly, antyhnig new can be added
   10:56 mdz         meanwhile, adjourned
   10:56 mdz         thanks everyone, especially those who had to wait a long
                     time for their turn

MeetingLogs/Technical_2006-01-17 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:31:17 by localhost)