Technical_2006-01-17
09:03 mdz good morning
09:03 hub raphink: I paid nothing when I had them
09:03 ajmitch morning mdz
09:03 raphink hi mdz
09:03 sivang morning mdz
09:03 raphink hub: you mean Free ?
09:03 hub raphink: glitch in the systeme
09:03 lucas sivang: it doesn't seem to be on ubuntu-motu
=== StevenK pays $55AUD for 1.5Mbit
09:03 hub raphink: yeah
=== StevenK waves to mdz.
09:03 mdz I'm assuming that sabdfl isn't going to be able to make it
due to travelling
09:03 raphink hub: :D :D
09:03 hub hey mdz
09:04 elmo mdz: safe bet
09:04 sivang that wouldn't be a first timer :)
09:04 raphink hi elmo
09:04 hub hey elmo
09:04 Keybuk raphink: I have ADSL now ... and that's what's not working
09:04 ajmitch where is sabdfl travelling to this week?
09:04 raphink Keybuk: ic
09:04 mdz looks like we have a full agenda
09:04 Keybuk raphink: I need to get something other than ADSL to have a
reliable net connection
09:04 raphink ajmitch: the moon?
09:04 ogra ajmitch, asia tour ?
09:04 sivang ajmitch: asia somewhere I think
09:04 ajmitch right
09:04 Keybuk mdz: does sabdfl ever make it even when he's not
travelling? :)
09:04 hub Keybuk: cable?
09:04 mdz Keybuk: sometimes, yes
09:05 sivang Keybuk: lol :) there were a couple of times IIRC
09:05 mdz so let's get started
09:05 mjg59 Ok
09:05 raphink ok
09:05 Keybuk hub: no cable in my area, annoyingly
09:05 mjg59 What order are we doing things in today, then?
09:05 hub Keybuk: :-/
=== cheche [n=cheche@134.Red-80-33-115.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined
#ubuntu-meeting
09:05 mdz I figure the order on the wiki is as good as any
hub: the alternative is for an ISP to actually takeover
09:05 Keybuk the line from the exchange to my house and repair it ...
BT won't do it
09:05 sivang pitti's sudo stuff first
09:06 mjg59 Cool. Core candidates.
it looks like there are a few people who have proposed
09:06 mdz themselves for ubuntu-core-dev who haven't otherwise
appeared in the community
09:06 mjg59 dsaa isn't here, anyone know anything about the other two?
09:06 ajmitch no core candidates who are motus already afaict
09:06 raphink mjg59: I'd say at least one core candidate...
09:06 mdz dholbach: are you around?
09:06 dholbach yes
09:06 dholbach I will mail them.
09:07 mdz dholbach: at a previous meeting, you helped us with
contacting these folks and explaining
09:07 mdz dholbach: could you make that a todo item for the monday
before each TB meeting?
09:07 dholbach Ok.
09:07 mdz thanks
09:07 Keybuk what are/should we do about the backlog of existing ones?
09:07 Keybuk didn't we talk about removing people if they failed to
come to meetings/
09:07 mdz dholbach is going to mail them, and then we'll remove them
09:08 mdz we agreed that folks should apply for MOTU before core
09:08 Keybuk hmm, we could do with a "notes" field for each person
btw, a quick note. I'm at the office now, I hope that
09:08 hub nothing preempt my sitting at this keyboard for the
meeting
09:08 Keybuk yeah
09:08 mjg59 Right. developer candidates?
09:08 raphink yep
=== lucas is, too
=== hub is applying for motu too
09:08 raphink :)
=== StevenK three
09:08 raphink 3 french people at least :)
09:09 mjg59 sivang, hub, lucas, raphink, vuntz, StevenK, anyone else?
09:09 mdz mjg59: were any candidates processed at the meeting I
missed?
09:09 raphink StevenK: that's four :)
09:09 mdz I'm not sure which of those in the queue are new and which
are stale
09:09 StevenK I added myself two days ago or so.
09:09 mjg59 mdz: I think we deferred a couple, it was a while ago now
09:09 hub raphink: I consider myself Canuck now
I saw in the last TB meeting's log that vuntz said he
09:09 lucas didn't have enough time to join the team, and he asked to
be removed from the list. did he change his mind ?
09:09 raphink hub: oh ok ;)
09:09 dholbach lucas: I think not.
09:09 raphink hub: you're still french-speaking though
09:10 sivang I'm stale , I need to do more MOTU contribs before this
can be evaluted again.
09:10 mdz mjg59: so that was what, 2005-12-20?
09:10 mjg59 mdz: Yup
09:10 Keybuk mjg59: we definitely processed some at the last TB meeting
09:10 dholbach sivang and vuntz can be safely removed.
09:10 mdz that gives us:
jjmmma Lucas Nussbaum Kiew Dino Solon A. Agcambot
09:10 mdz Hubert Figuiere Raphal Pinson Manu Cornet
freeflying Steve Kowalik
09:10 sivang dholbach: thanks
09:10 mdz hub, lucas, StevenK are here
09:10 mdz anyone else?
09:11 raphink mdz: i'm here too
09:11 lucas raphink is Raphal Pinson
09:11 mdz ok
09:11 raphink ty lucas
09:11 mdz looks like lucas is up first
09:11 lucas ok
09:11 mdz lucas: care to tell us a bit about yourself and what
you've been up to?
I've prepared a wiki page to summarize my candidacy. It's
09:11 lucas probably faster. See
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucasNussbaum/TBCandidacy if you
want
09:12 Keybuk ooh, shiny
09:12 lucas 24 years old, french, phd student in CS
09:12 mdz I've noticed you've done quite a bit of wiki content
09:12 hub I don't have a summary for my candidacy
09:12 lucas I've been working on MOTU-related stuff and debian
collaboration stuff
09:13 lucas (like working with raphael hertzog to start flamewars :/)
09:13 raphink hub: me neither ;)
09:13 raphink lucas: hehe
09:13 mdz heh
=== StevenK only has his wiki page.
09:13 raphink StevenK: you're not the only one so that's fine ;)
=== ogra likes the hot discussions he has with lucas in -motu :)
09:14 mjg59 lucas: So what Ruby stuff have you actually been doing so
far?
09:14 ogra and lucas is definately very encouraged and around a lot
all day ...
09:14 lucas in Ubuntu, just a few merges that were needed
09:14 mjg59 Is stuff being significantly altered inside Ubuntu, or is
it mainly helping to merge stuff from Debian?
09:14 lucas in Debian, packaging of stuff I'm upstream for (feed2imap,
libfeedparser-ruby, libxmpp4r-ruby)
09:15 lucas merging stuff only
09:15 mjg59 Ok, cool
09:15 mdz lucas: which parts of MultiDistroTools are your work?
09:15 lucas mdz: everything
09:15 raphink lucas also provided a nice web interface to work with
merges more easily lately
09:15 mdz nice work
09:15 lucas mjg59: since I have 'contacts' with debian ruby
maintainers, it's easier to keep the divergence low
09:16 raphink http://revu.tauware.de/~lucas/versions/ very useful :)
lucas: you note on your wiki page that you aren't sure
09:16 mdz you'll be able to contribute in the long term. do you
care to elaborate?
09:16 lucas I'm sure I'll be able to contribute on the long term.
09:16 lucas what I'm not sure of, is whether I'll be able to do
general MOTU work on the long term (merge/syncs)
09:17 lucas however, I hope to be able to help when the backlog is
quite big, for example
09:17 Keybuk is this because of an expected lack of time, or other
reasons?
09:17 lucas yeah, lack of time, as always
09:17 mdz lucas: I see that you're in the Debian NM queue
09:17 lucas working more on Ubuntu means working less on other
projects or my thesis ;)
09:17 Keybuk but you believe you have time now?
09:17 lucas yeah, I have
lucas: how does your intention to join Debian fit into
09:18 mdz your strategy for improving collaboration between the
projects?
09:18 lucas hehe a timeline is needed here
09:18 lucas beginning of the summer: I start packaging stuff inside
pkg-ruby-extras debian team
09:19 lucas then, I get on NM, since you better start early
09:19 lucas then I discovered the bad state of ruby in breezy (that
was in september)
09:19 lucas so I got involved into MOTU
I've been using Ubuntu since no-name-yet.com, but when
09:20 lucas everything looks fine, you don't feel the need to get
involved
09:20 lucas (that's all)
09:21 lucas ;)
09:21 mdz thanks
=== LaserJock [n=mantha@ubuntu/member/laserjock] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:21 lucas I don't think I'll be a DD soon, become of the average
time you usually spend in NM
09:21 mdz would anyone like to say anything further about lucas'
involvement with MOTU so far?
09:21 sistpoty as orgra already pointed out, lucas has been very
encouraged on motu-issues
09:21 lucas being a DD probably help with debian collaboration, but
it's mainly human issues currently, as I see it
=== tseng [n=tseng@brandonhale.us] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
lucas's MDT have been quite helpful, along with
09:22 crimsun sistpoty's, in the Dapper merges. I use them both
constantly.
09:22 mdz mjg59,Keybuk: I think that's sufficient discussion;
agreed?
09:22 Keybuk agree
09:22 sistpoty oh, yep. he did really rocking work with it
09:22 mjg59 mdz: Yup
09:23 mdz votes?
09:23 mjg59 +1 from me
09:23 sivang crimsun: are they a better incarniation of the motu-tools
package?
09:23 mdz +1
09:23 Keybuk +1 also
09:23 dholbach Welcome lucas!
09:23 lucas :-) thank you all.
09:23 ogra sivang, nope, another set of tools
09:23 mdz lucas: welcome
09:23 sistpoty welcome lucas :)
09:23 ogra welcome lucas
09:23 raphink :D
09:23 mdz hub: you're next
09:23 hub ok
09:24 StevenK That sounded omnious.
09:24 mdz StevenK: ;-)
09:24 mdz hub: you maintain abiword?
though I haven't seen many packages from hub (didn't have
09:24 sistpoty time to review more), what I've seen was very clear and
good packaging
09:25 Keybuk hub was at UBZ, iirc.
09:25 ogra mdz, he's upstream :)
09:25 hub mdz: as upstream, I'm one of the maintainers, yes
09:25 mdz Keybuk: yes
09:25 Keybuk came to several of my BOFs
I'm very happy with hub's contributions. He worked on a
09:25 dholbach bunch of photo tools and libraries, he works well with
upstream, his packaging improved over the weeks, and I'd
personally be very happy to have him on board.
09:25 hub Keybuk: I was
09:25 ajmitch he even hosted a drinking BOF there
09:25 ogra at home :)
09:25 hub ajmitch: and pizza BOF
09:25 dholbach Yeah :)
09:25 mdz hub: do you have any specific interests or plans for
Ubuntu contributions that you can tell us about?
09:25 sivang hub: in UBZ ? :)
=== ajmitch found hub's packaging to be of good quality, and he's been
persistent with it
09:25 mjg59 hub: Your Launchpad page doesn't go into too much detail -
what have you been up to in Ubuntu?
09:26 hub mdz: currently I'm trying to focus on providing various
tools for digital photography
09:26 hub and I have a bunch of packages still pending on REVU
09:26 ogra carrying over your knowledge from gnome ? :)
hub is the well known photo tools guy in gnome ... and i'm
09:27 ogra really happy he wants to take such tasks in ubuntu as well
:)
09:28 hub ogra: I'm not espacially gnome centric for the tools
09:28 mdz hub: you organized MOTUPhoto?
09:28 hub mdz: I creat the team
09:28 mjg59 hub: So, do you think it's possible to provide a "just
work" atmosphere for the photography field?
09:28 hub created
09:28 ogra hub, they are not QT based :)
09:28 hub mjg59: that is my goal. Have the tools ready for use
09:28 mdz hub: what is your opinion of f-spot?
09:29 hub mdz: f-spot is a great user app
09:29 hub I installed Mono just for that reason
09:29 hub I'm talking regularly with lewing, the upstream developer
what do you think is the best way to get photo
09:29 mdz functionality to Just Work in Ubuntu, as it does on the
Mac platform?
09:30 hub mdz: enhance libgphoto2 to work even more seemlessly
09:31 hub and have the application use it for everything
currently we launch gthumb when a camera is attached, but
09:31 mdz I have never been very happy about its level of
functionality
09:31 mdz I launched it just now and it crashed during startup ;-)
09:31 hub hew
09:31 hub I'll check that
09:31 raphink hehe
09:31 janimo mdz, use a stable distro :)
09:31 Mithrandir my main gripe with gthumb is that it's slow and
memory-hungry.
09:31 hub I don't really work this way
09:31 hub maybe I should try it harder
09:31 ajmitch Mithrandir: so is f-spot at times
09:31 hub Mithrandir: f-spot is faster IMHO
09:32 mdz hub: what way do you mean?
09:32 ajmitch reminds me, I should upload 0.1.7 now
09:32 hub I use a card reader, pop the card in, copy the files
I'd like f-spot's "new startup and import" feature to
09:32 Keybuk actually infer information from my carefully constructed
hierarchy of directory names
09:32 Keybuk right now it imports my thousands of photos and gives me
that "now you have to tag them" look
09:32 mdz hub: yes, that's what I do as well. however, I'd like to
make things work well for a broader class of users
09:32 ogra Keybuk, you can switch to directory view
09:32 Mithrandir ajmitch: I don't want photo apps to "manage my
collection", I want to look at pics.
09:32 Keybuk ogra: that kinda defeats the point though, especailly if
you now import new things with f-spot and tag them
09:33 ajmitch quickly getting OT :)
09:33 mdz we needn't get into too much detail right now, though
09:33 mdz ajmitch: ;-)
09:33 mdz mjg59,Keybuk: satisfied with the amount of discussion?
mdz: I must admit that it is the best user case to have a
09:33 hub program the ask about importing the pictures form the
camera when you connect it
09:33 pitti hub: that's what shuold happen ATM
09:33 Keybuk yup, I'm good
09:34 mdz pitti: it does, but gthumb has some issues
09:34 hub I had plans to write a "gnome-photo-importer"
09:34 mjg59 mdz: Yup
09:34 pitti hub: g-v-m asks about importing and calls gthumb if the
user wnats
09:34 mdz ok, votes?
09:34 Keybuk +1 from me
09:34 hub to copy the picture automatically
09:34 mdz +1
09:34 mjg59 +1
09:34 mdz hub: congratulations
09:34 ajmitch welcome, hub :)
09:34 raphink :)
09:34 hub pitti: yeah, but mdz just said it was crashing
=== pitti welcomes hub
09:34 hub mdz: thanks
09:34 ogra hub, http://www.grawert.net/software/pimp/
09:34 mdz hub: and now I have to go and file a proper bug report
after the meeting ;-)
09:34 ogra hub, could need a python rewrite ;)
09:34 Keybuk mdz: good luck!
09:34 ogra hub, and welcome
09:34 hub ogra: eh
09:35 mdz raphink: you're up
09:35 raphink OK I have prepared a 4 paragraphs intro to paste ;)
09:35 hub ogra: I'd rewrite it in C++ :-/
I got involved in MOTU things mostly by packaging new
stuff for Ubuntu (mostly KDE packages) in october. My work
in Ubuntu is documented on
09:35 raphink https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaphaelPinson . I haven't really
had the time to change the motivation part that I put
before being a member, but it sums up why I want to be a
MOTU, too.
09:35 dholbach Excellent, hub!
After packaging for some time and putting my packages on
REVU, I noticed the queue was pretty slow on REVU, and
wanted to help a bit. So I reviewed some packages myself
09:35 raphink and sent the comments to the packagers, forwarding them to
some MOTUs. After I did that with a few packages, I was
given review rights on REVU and have been using it so far
to review more directly on the website.
09:35 ogra hub, fine as well
09:35 raphink I have also contributed to syncing/merging packages,
although not as much as packaging/reviewing.
Finally, I have been working on the MOTU related
09:35 raphink documentation on the wiki, mostly on the REVU page, on the
packaging and reviewing tips, and more recently on
creating a Debian contribution page together with lucas.
09:35 mdz raphink: that's great, it seems like REVU always needs
more reviewers
09:36 raphink I do my best :)
09:36 lucas (url: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributingToDebian )
09:36 raphink ty lucas
09:36 mdz Riddell: any feedback on raphink's involvement with
KDE/Kubuntu?
09:36 ajmitch yes, us existing MOTUs don't do enough reviewing to keep
up
09:36 raphink mdz: now it would help even more if I could advocate and
upload packages too
09:36 sistpoty raphink did some very nice kde packages, and his reviews
are of good quality
09:36 mjg59 raphink: What sort of packages do you plan on uploading?
09:37 raphink mjg59: I mean being able to upload the advocated packages
from REVU
09:37 raphink right now i can only criticize the packages on REVU
09:37 mjg59 raphink: Ok, cool
09:37 raphink put comments and so on
09:37 raphink but when I feel they're ready
09:37 mjg59 Any plans for independent packaging?
09:37 raphink i can't do more than just telling the guy to ask a MOTu
gently
09:37 raphink mjg59: I have 8 packages in Dapper already
09:37 mjg59 Excellent
09:37 raphink I also have my own project on alioth
09:38 raphink which is called Ichthux
09:38 raphink it's a CDD aimed to christians
09:38 raphink when i began it I didn't know much about Debian systems
yet
09:38 raphink so it's a bit stalled right now
09:38 raphink but I plan to improve it and get the packages in Debian
and Ubuntu in the future maybe
09:38 raphink just as Debian Jr. or Debian Med
09:39 ogra or edubuntu, xubuntu ;)
09:39 raphink yep exactly ;)
09:39 mdz raphink: are you a Debian developer or in the NM queue?
09:39 raphink no i'm not
09:39 raphink I considered it a few months ago
09:39 raphink and didn't do it at the time
09:39 raphink and then got involved in Ubuntu
09:39 raphink I haven't considered applying for DD seriously any
recently
09:40 raphink and I still need to get my packages in Debian
09:40 mdz well, becoming a DD would be the ideal way to get your
packages into debian, of course ;-)
09:40 raphink thankfully I know some DDs who can sponsor my work, within
Ichthux
09:40 mdz oh, good
09:40 raphink yes mdz I know that :)
09:40 raphink this is future plans :)
09:40 raphink right now I have to have Ichthux administrated by a DD on
alioth
09:40 raphink since they wouldn't let a non-DD rule it
09:41 raphink SynrG has been my mentor even since april actually
09:41 raphink and now co-administrates Ichthux on alioth withme
09:41 raphink :)
09:42 raphink (yes I can witness there are very nice DDs around that
like Ubuntu even if not involved in it :))
=== janim1 [n=jani@Home03207.cluj.astral.ro] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:42 sivang raphink: Ben is very nice indeed :)
09:42 raphink sivang: :)
=== HiddenWolf [n=HiddenWo@136.134.dynamic.phpg.net] has joined
#ubuntu-meeting
09:43 mdz dholbach,ogra: anything to say?
09:43 ogra raphink, is very busy in the motu world and around every
day since some weeks ...
09:44 ogra err, months ?
09:44 dholbach mdz: I was very happy, when he jumped into REVUing and
looking at his packages made me happy too.
09:44 raphink ogra: time goes by :)
I've been working with raphink on some merges/syncs and
09:44 lucas some documentation. He has really been hyperactive those
last weeks. I really enjoy working with him. His work has
always been of high quality.
09:44 ogra in any case he's a good teamworker
09:45 dholbach And he helped actively to respond to questions in the
channel.
09:45 ogra ...and would be very valuable for motu
09:45 mdz mjg59,Keybuk: ready?
09:45 mjg59 Yup
09:46 mdz votes
09:46 mjg59 +1 form me
09:46 Keybuk yup
09:46 mdz +1 here
09:46 dholbach raphink: welcome to the team!
09:46 raphink :D
09:46 raphink ty :)
09:46 ogra congrats raphink
09:46 mdz raphink: welcome aboard
=== dholbach hugs raphink, lucas, hub
09:46 sistpoty raphink: congrats
09:46 Keybuk +1 from me
09:46 ajmitch well done, welcome
09:46 raphink thanks ogra && sistpoty :)
=== lfittl [n=lfittl@83-65-242-100.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined
#ubuntu-meeting
09:46 raphink :) :)
09:47 mdz StevenK: ready?
09:47 StevenK Yup.
09:47 StevenK Well, as much as I can be.
=== raphink is proud to be in a nice team as the MOTU one :)
09:47 mdz I'm familiar with your work in Debian, thanks for that
=== StevenK squints from mdz's spotlight.
=== hub hugs dholbach
09:47 mdz and I see you've done some uploads to Ubuntu recently; who
has sponsored those for you?
=== ajmitch has done some
09:47 StevenK Multiple MOTUs, notably Mithrandir, ajmitch and \sh.
=== crimsun has as well
09:48 StevenK crimsun: Oh, I didn't see you there.
=== sistpoty also sponsored some
09:48 StevenK See, many?
09:48 ogra :)
09:48 ajmitch from what I can tell, he certainly knows what he's doing
:)
09:48 sistpoty I can't really say anything about his skillz... I'd need
higher skills myself to rate StevenK's ;
09:48 sistpoty +)
09:48 mdz StevenK: given your background you're obviously familiar
with packaging practices ;-)
09:48 StevenK Hell, I wrote a package checker.
09:48 StevenK :-)
09:48 mdz right
09:49 Mithrandir SK++
09:49 StevenK Er, am writing one.
09:49 Keybuk StevenK: yes, could you not do that again :)
=== StevenK grins.
=== Burgwork [n=corey@S010600131016cf6f.gv.shawcable.net] has joined
#ubuntu-meeting
09:49 mdz StevenK: how did you become interested in contributing to
Ubuntu directly?
09:49 sivang lol, but she has a nice name :)
fwiw, I've been happy with what I've seen from SK, both
09:50 Mithrandir technically; he knows his ropes well as well as socially,
helping other people in -motu.
09:50 ogra ++
Apart from that, I was amazed by how fast and well he
09:50 dholbach integrated into the team and worked with the processes we
have and helped others to get into the MOTU world as well.
09:50 ogra (especially for the last part ++)
mdz: I've been curious about Ubuntu since Hoary or so, and
a few months ago (I think), I tried a live CD, and was
09:51 StevenK impressed. I started hanging out in -motu and helping out.
A week later I installed Breezy and dealt with the culture
shock from moving from unstable to well, stable.
09:51 ogra lol
09:51 Mithrandir StevenK: you should try the new live cd. Much faster and
shinier.
09:51 ajmitch and you couldn't bear not dist-upgrading, so you went to
dapper?
09:51 mdz mjg59,Keybuk: we're running a bit long already; any
questions you'd like to ask StevenK?
09:51 StevenK That's actually on my TODO list.
09:51 ogra if you dont use ppc :P
09:52 pitti StevenK: just install dapper to get the nice cozy feeling
of brokenness again :)
09:52 Keybuk StevenK: how will you balance working on Debian and for
Ubuntu
09:52 Keybuk s/for/on/
09:52 sivang pitti: not too much though :)
09:52 StevenK Keybuk: Ignore Debian and work on Ubuntu? Seems to be
working for now.
09:52 StevenK In all seriousness, most of my packages in Debian take
care of themselves.
09:53 ogra wow, how did you manage that ?
09:53 raphink pitti: hehe
09:53 StevenK Either I'm upstream, or the upstream release very slowly.
=== ogra glares at the pieces of xscreensaver in front of him and envys
StevenK
StevenK: so you're interested in working on a different
09:53 mdz set of packages in Ubuntu, then? any particular area of
focus that interests you?
09:54 StevenK Not any particular area. I'll fight for interesting
packages to merge/sync, but I'll work on anything.
09:54 StevenK It's just packaging, and packaging is fun.
09:54 raphink :)
09:54 mdz ok, any further discussion?
09:55 Keybuk so, out of interest, why would you want to do this work
for Ubuntu and not for Debian?
09:55 mjg59 I don't think I've got any relevant questions
09:55 StevenK Mainly because the work ethic in Ubuntu is much nicer.
09:55 ogra :)
09:55 StevenK I've become a little upset by Debian recently.
09:56 mdz it's easier in a small organization
09:56 StevenK Reading -{private,devel,project} has become a chore.
09:56 mdz we'll have to face many of Debian's problems as time goes
on, I expect
09:56 mdz hopefully with the benefit of Debian's experience, but
face them nonetheless
09:56 ajmitch the MOTU team will inevitably run into scalability issues
09:56 StevenK ajmitch: I thought we had already? :-)
09:56 ajmitch StevenK: we have the problem of too few still
09:57 ajmitch once we get too many, other issues show up :)
09:57 mdz ok, need to move on to the discussion topics on the agenda
09:57 mdz votes?
09:58 Keybuk ++
09:58 mdz +1 from me based on Debian history, recent uploads and
feedback from MOTU
09:58 mjg59 +1
09:58 dholbach Welcome to the team StevenK!
09:58 mjg59 Cool
09:58 StevenK Thanks!
09:58 mdz StevenK: congrats
09:58 pitti StevenK: welcome
09:58 ogra yay, welcome StevenK !
09:58 mdz pitti: still awake?
09:58 mjg59 pitti: Sudo help? Could you outline what that actually
involves?
09:58 pitti mdz: barely :)
09:58 pitti yes
The problem: we want to make it easier for first-time
09:58 pitti Ubuntu users to find out about the root whereabouts, since
it's a FAQ.
currently proposed idea: sudo writes a stamp
(~/.sudo_admin_successful, or whatever) if the user ran
09:58 pitti sudo successfully, and a snippet in /etc/profile gives a
short help message ('Use "sudo <command>" to execute a
command as root') as long as the stamp file does not
exist.
09:59 pitti (NB that this was not *my* proposal)
09:59 sistpoty congrats StevenK :)
09:59 pitti some people (Mithrandir, fabbione) did not really like
this approach, both principally, and technically
09:59 mdz this was sabdfl's proposal, which he discussed with me
I propose to discuss the general approach first before we
09:59 pitti come down to the implementation; Mithrandir, what would
you propose instead?
hmm, to me, if a user opens a Terminal and doesn't know
09:59 Keybuk how to become root -- or where to look in order to know,
they probably shouldn't be trying to be root
09:59 mdz the goal of this approach is to inform the user about sudo
as soon as we know that they are a command-line user
09:59 mjg59 This could presumably be compared to how BSDs used to have
"Don't login as root, use su"?
10:00 mdz Keybuk: the target audience are the folks who are used to
other distributions
10:00 mdz but not sudo
10:00 pitti but many users already know what a 'root' user is and what
it is for, and they seem to miss it in Ubuntu
10:00 pitti so we need to nudge them itno the right direction
10:00 Mithrandir pitti: write a pam module to echo out "you need to use
sudo" if they call su -
10:00 Keybuk if we _really_ must have something like it, I'd suggest
bringing back the "Root Terminal" menu item
10:00 mdz mjg59: yes, but don't they display that in motd or
something?
10:00 Keybuk maybe shoving it under System->Administration
10:00 pitti Mithrandir: that was my original idea, too
10:00 mjg59 mdz: Only if you logged in as root
10:00 mdz this would be less disruptiev in that it would go away
once they've used sudo
10:00 sivang maybe this could be made so that only users who are
allowed to sudo see it?
10:00 mdz mjg59: ah
10:00 mdz sivang: yes, that was part of the proposal
10:01 sivang opos, sorry :-/
10:01 Mithrandir pitti: of course, only if root was disabled. If root's
enabled, it should be quiet.
10:01 mdz Keybuk: the trouble is that users are accustomed to
opening a terminal and using su
10:01 pitti Mithrandir: sure
10:01 mjg59 Perhaps it would be more sensible to have *su* print it?
10:01 pitti I don't really like the 'root terminal' approach
10:01 pitti it might tempt people to use it for more tasks than
necessary
10:01 Mithrandir mjg59: implementation detail, really, but sure.
mjg59: that was my first answer to sabdfl, but feedback
10:01 mdz from the community has shown that users get confused
before that point
10:02 mdz they suddenly realize that they don't know the root
password, so su is hopeless
the only problem I see with my approach is that people
10:02 Mithrandir won't even try su - if they haven't punched in a root
password.
10:02 mjg59 mdz: Ah
given that, the proposal doesn't look all that bad to me.
10:02 sivang If I cannot sudo - the I won't see it. if I can, then I
should know the implications already.
10:02 pitti maybe we should add the su check if root is disabled
nevertheless? It doesn't interfere with the sudo help
10:02 mdz pitti: sure, it's orthogonal
10:02 raphink just jumping it, but can't people be better informed on
`sudo -i' ? if they want a su feeling?
10:02 raphink s/it/in/
10:02 mjg59 raphink: It's more that they don't know they have to use
sudo
10:03 pitti yes, I forgot that part - that only affects members of
admin
10:03 raphink mjg59: I get the point
10:03 raphink and it would be really dirty to link su to sudo -i ;)
raphink: we can fine-tune the text of the message as
10:03 mdz necessary; I think the open issue is whether the approach
is correct
10:03 Mithrandir a problem with the flag file is "what happens once the
user has used sudo once, then doesn't remember?"
10:03 pitti raphink: and wrong
I can understand the reasoning behind wanting to forcibly
10:03 mjg59 instruct people, but I'm not sure uglifying every shell is
the best plan
10:03 raphink mdz: yes
10:03 raphink pitti: totally wrong ;)
10:03 mdz Mithrandir: we can lead them to the documentation, but we
cannot make them drink
10:03 mjg59 Also, there's no reliable way for it to know if the user
can run sudo
10:04 mdz mjg59: for all new installations, the admin group serves
that purpose
10:04 pitti mjg59: no, we only want admin members
mdz: the message magically goes away after they've run the
10:04 Mithrandir command once. There's no (visible) way for them to get it
back.
mjg59: we specifically don't want messages for restricted
10:04 pitti sudo access (you still remember the information disclosure
discussion? :) )
10:04 raphink mjg59: all the more that sudo can be used for only some
tasks
10:04 Mithrandir mdz: it's really a horrible thing to do, UI-wise..
10:04 mdz Mithrandir: not only after they've run it, after they've
run it successfully
10:04 raphink mjg59: so that even a user who can use sudo might not be
able to use it for all things
mdz: I worry about the case where an admin knows enough to
10:04 mjg59 fix sudo (say they have a local admin group that's used
for other purposes), but don't know where this message is
coming from
Mithrandir: to be concrete, if the sudo command and
10:05 pitti authentication was ran successfully (not if the runned
command was successful)
10:05 mdz mjg59: /etc/profile is a pretty reasonable place to look
10:05 sivang mjg59: we can state where this msg is coming from
somewhere else, and note that in the help msg itslef
10:05 Mithrandir pitti: sure, but it's still horrible from a UI POV.
10:05 mjg59 mdz: I think that whichever way we go, people will be
unhappy about some aspect of it
10:05 mdz mjg59: agreed
10:05 pitti Mithrandir: well, there isn't much UI, what do you mean in
particluar?
10:05 mjg59 How does MacOS deal with this?
10:06 mdz but I think we can do better than we currently do
10:06 mjg59 (I'm guessing that they just don't)
10:06 mdz mjg59: they ignore it, I think
10:06 pitti mjg59: they don't
10:06 sivang Mithrandir: horrible, but effective to close this pit in
which I personally saw many users fall into
10:06 mdz because their users don't expect to be able to use root
10:06 pitti mjg59: the first time I saw macos, I didn't know how to
become an admin
10:06 mjg59 What other things can also be done?
we're in a different boat because we get a lot of users
10:06 mdz who have enough experience with linux to be confused by
the difference in our configuration
10:06 Mithrandir pitti: You have a message which appears each time you open
a terminal. You run sudo ls. The message goes away.
10:07 mjg59 What does the installer currently say during password
configuration?
do I recall correctly, that there is a root-terminal icon
10:07 sistpoty somewhere in the default gnome install? maybe use that to
trigger some help?
10:07 mdz mjg59: it doesn't matter, nobody reads the text ;-)
Mithrandir: maybe we should just add it to
10:07 pitti /etc/skel/.bashrc and have the user remove it themselves
if they want?
10:07 janim1 people may get preinstalled boxes
10:07 pitti mdz: ^
10:07 ogra Mithrandir, but you filter a good bunch of support
requests from the users which have read the message
10:07 mdz Mithrandir: what do you propose? something like what pitti
says?
10:08 mdz "edit ~/.profile / /etc/profile / whatever if you don't
want to see this message anymore"?
10:08 sivang maybe we can use a dsktop notification instead of a
terminal msg?
10:08 pitti then existing users won't see it of course
10:08 Mithrandir mdz: I would like a pam module or have it not go away
automatically, yes.
10:08 mdz sivang: to what purpose?
10:08 Mithrandir pitti: existing users probably know about sudo. :-P
10:08 ogra shinyness :)
10:09 ogra sivang, that wont help you on a console
10:09 sivang err, right
10:09 pitti Mithrandir: right, that's why I think that this is not a
real flaw of the /etc/skel/.bashrc approach
10:09 sivang ogra: forgot we're not laways ona console
10:09 sivang s/console/X/
10:09 ogra heh
mdz: the text in the installer *should* be improved, mind
10:09 Kamion you; and probably will once we get all the sudo stuff
integrated upstream
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10:09 Kamion at the moment the installer doesn't really tell you
anything much
10:10 sivang true
10:10 Kamion pitti: /etc/skel/.bashrc applies to everyone, not just
admin users
10:10 Kamion would be pretty annoying on boxes with non-trivial numbers
of users
10:10 pitti Kamion: sure, but you can enclose it in an if..then
10:10 pitti i. e. check if he's an admin member
my opinion is that sabdfl's proposal is simple to try out,
10:10 mdz unsurprising for experienced users, and helpful to
intermediate users
10:11 pitti non-admins shouldn't ever see it anyway
10:11 mdz whether it will be annoying for too many users, that's
difficult to say
10:11 mdz it might even annoy me, but we won't really know until we
try something
10:11 mjg59 Ok. How about we agree to do it for preview and then
potentially reconsider after that?
10:11 sivang we probably need to trail and error, that's all.
10:11 mdz Keybuk has notified me that his network connection is gone
10:11 mdz mjg59: that's reasonable for me
10:12 pitti can we have a voting about automatically removing the note
or not?
10:12 mdz sure, if you like
10:12 pitti if not, then we don't need to change sudo
10:12 mjg59 I'm in favour of automatically removing the note.
10:12 mdz I'm in favor of automatically removing the note, rather
than forcing users to explicitly remove it
10:13 mjg59 Ok. So we'll implement for preview, with automatic
removal, and see what sort of response we get?
10:13 mdz that's fine with me
10:13 mdz we know what sabdfl would say. ;-) DO IT
10:13 mjg59 Cool. Popcon?
10:13 sivang heh
10:13 mdz popcon
10:13 lucas yeak
10:13 lucas yeah
10:13 lucas 1 min
10:13 pitti ok, grat
Status of popcon.u.c (LucasNussbaum, also see
[WWW] thread on u-devel@): popcon.u.c hasn't been updated
10:13 lucas since June 2005. While it's mostly useless for main
packages (all users have the default set of packages
installed), it is very useful for universe to determine
wich packages should get the more attention.
10:14 pitti great
10:14 mdz it's broken and ought to be fixed. is there any policy
decision to be made here?
Could popcon be fixed ? By whom ? How could we ask our
10:14 lucas users to enable it (u-d-a@ email, blog entries) ? (it is
disabled by default for obvious privacy reasons)
10:14 mjg59 mdz: Default enabling mechanism
10:14 mdz we could add a checkbox to espresso
10:14 ogra having a gui to enable it would be rad to make users aware
of it ...
10:14 Kamion thom used to run popcon (by virtue of being sysadmin as
well), but no longer does
10:15 Kamion I don't think anyone's paid any attention to it at all
since he left
Is espresso going to have a "Put your email address here
10:15 mjg59 if you want to receive updates about new versions of
Ubuntu" type thing?
elmo: what kind of privileges are necessary to run
10:15 mdz popcon? is it something the sysadmin team needs to do, or
can it be handed off to a mere mortal?
10:15 mdz mjg59: not planned currently
10:15 mjg59 If so, it would make sense to add something with a privacy
policy there
10:15 elmo mdz: it can and should be handed off
10:15 lucas I'd volunteer to take care of it, but it's probably a
'privilege' limited to employees ?
10:16 Kamion lucas: shell access to machines in general is, yeah
10:16 mdz elmo: I assume it requires shell access somewhere or
other?
10:16 elmo mdz: yes
10:16 elmo it can't be community maintained, sorry
10:17 ogra didnt we have external vservers for community stuff
10:17 elmo is there really no one on the distro team who can fix it?
10:17 elmo I don't beleive it requires much in the way of maintenance
10:17 mdz elmo: yes, it's just a matter of appointing someone
10:17 Mithrandir can it be cronned?
10:17 ogra i'd take it ... but i'm not sure how time consuming it is
10:18 mdz is anyone who already has shell privileges familiar with
popcon?
10:18 Mithrandir I've read the scripts, but I wouldn't consider myself
familiar.
10:18 Kamion I've touched it, but am kind of busy
10:18 ogra i only inspected the client side when i worked on hwdb
10:19 mdz I expect that once it's fixed, it'll run quietly without
intervention for a long time
10:19 mdz Mithrandir: would you have a look and get it going again?
10:20 Mithrandir mdz: sure, I could do that.
10:20 mdz wonderful, thanks
10:20 mdz lucas: any outstanding issues then?
10:20 Mithrandir I'd need access to the box, but I'm sure that'll be
arranged.
10:20 Mithrandir (I'll file an RT ticket)
10:20 mdz Mithrandir: yep
10:21 mdz there's a question about advertising it more
10:21 mdz I don't mind if someone sends an email to -announce
inviting users to participate
10:21 lucas mdz: no
10:21 mdz ok, let's move on then
10:21 mdz is jani here regarding Xubuntu?
10:21 janim1 here
10:21 dholbach I can do that, once Mithrandir has fixed it.
=== christooss [n=matic@BSN-210-217-96.dial-up.dsl.siol.net] has joined
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10:21 mdz dholbach: ok
=== dholbach hugs Mithrandir
10:22 janim1 shall I start?
10:22 mjg59 janim1: Sure
10:22 mdz janim1: please
10:23 janim1 ok so I'd like if possible to have the same status for
xfce packages
10:23 janim1 as for kde and gnome
10:23 janim1 excempt from UVF
10:23 mdz janim1: KDE isn't exactly exempt, though it does sometimes
get exceptions
10:23 janim1 I am taking care of them and debian is doing the same
10:23 tseng janim1: "exempt" is a bit of a strech
10:23 mdz janim1: the reason why gnome is treated specially is
because our releases are synchronized
10:23 janim1 it was for breezy wasn;t?
10:23 tseng janim1: gnome has a strict schedule
10:24 mdz janim1: so we can be confident that they're stabilizing
when we need them to be stabilizing
10:24 mdz janim1: does xfce have a time-based release schedule?
10:24 janim1 no
10:24 janim1 they plan a stable release in Feb though
10:24 mdz if not, then we need to consider it on a case-by-case
basis
10:24 Keybuk ok, I _think_ I'm back again (I hope)
10:24 pitti Keybuk: yes, you are :)
janim1: I have to ask for any excemptions for KDE uploads
10:24 Riddell after UVF, it has to be shown that they are bug fix only
releases and won't break anything
10:25 janim1 ok, then I don;t want blanket permissions
Keybuk: while you were gone, we decided to rename the
10:25 mdz project to Schmoobuntu, and to have prospective developers
paint their faces blue
10:25 janim1 just not too much hassle :)
I'm inclined to agree with mdz here, if XFCE doesn't
10:25 Keybuk follow our release cycle, we should consider it
individually each time
10:25 mdz janim1: I'm perfectly willing to consider exceptions for
XFCE
10:25 Keybuk mdz: what about existing developers?
10:25 janim1 thanks
10:25 mdz Keybuk: orange
10:25 Keybuk ah, the bad-fake-tan look :)
janim1: it will help a lot if upstream provides good
10:26 mdz changelogs and distinguishes between feature branches and
bugfix-only branches
10:26 dholbach Oh great! That's more like the hippie feeling I expected!
:)
10:26 janim1 so yes I was only talking about dapper and this upcoming
xfce not in general as it is with gnome
10:26 tseng on a similar note, I am hoping to track mono and gtk# past
UVF
10:26 mdz janim1: since we won't be able to spend time auditing
their code to see what kinds of changes we're dealing with
10:26 janim1 mdz, yes they are working on a branch which becomes a
release shortly
10:26 tseng they both have bugfix-only branches open, as NLD time
schedule is pretty close to dapper atm
10:27 tseng and fixes will be backported for the next few months.
10:27 janim1 mdz, I am willing to put in all the time needed for the
dozen or so packages
10:27 janim1 and they have _no_ security record so far :)
10:27 pitti janim1: or rather, a good one :)
10:27 janim1 ok :)
janim1: it might help if you communicated with upstream
that we are very disciplined about our release cycle and
10:27 mdz would like to cooperate with them to ensure that the right
changes get into Ubuntu, but need to be conservative in
what we accept as releases approach
10:27 pitti mdz: FYI, I ack'ed all the xfce packages for main
yesterday
10:28 dholbach Wow.
10:28 janim1 mdz, already contacted them in December and keep pestering
and controibuting
10:28 ogra in a row
10:28 janim1 did the same with debian-xfce
10:28 mdz ok, so there is also the question of promoting XFCE to
main\
10:28 janim1 pitti, thanks btw, there's still thunar orage and exo
10:28 janim1 :)
10:28 pitti janim1: oh, ok, will do them tomorrow
10:29 pitti janim1: they didn't sound xfce'ish
10:29 janim1 yeah
10:29 ogra exo has an X in the middle :)
10:29 pitti mdz: however, before we actually promote them, we should
find a solution for langpacks
as with any other packages, if they meet our criteria and
10:29 mdz get signoffs from the right people, they're welcome in
main
=== mhz [n=mhz_chil@moinmoin/fan/mhz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:29 mdz pitti: are the translations very large?
10:29 pitti xfce has a fair number of translations, and we shuold
carefully consider where to put them
10:29 janim1 pitti, yes langpack is something we need to figure out for
xfce
10:30 pitti i. e. put them into the main langpacks, or create xfce
specific ones
10:30 janim1 pitti, I am willing to do the packaging whatevere is
required with your guidance
10:30 pitti janim1: do you happen to know how big a well translated
language is for xfce?
10:30 mdz pitti: I'm happy to leave that to your discretion based on
how large they turn out to be
10:30 janim1 pitti, no idea
10:30 pitti janim1: nevermind, langpacks are created automaticlaly
10:30 pitti mdz: ok, I'll figure it out with jani
10:31 mdz ok
10:31 mdz the final xfce issue is CD builds
10:31 janim1 yes
10:31 ogra pitti, do separate ones, else you 'll loose the advantage
of xfce's smallness
10:31 janim1 this is a Kamion thing I suppose
10:31 mdz this is a tricky issue, because there is a tradeoff
between bottlenecks on busy people, and security
10:31 janim1 whether the machines can handle the load
10:31 Kamion to some extent; other people can kick off builds, but
nobody else knows the relevant bits of the code as well
10:31 mdz it would be simplest for Kamion to do it, but he has a lot
on his plate
10:32 pitti ogra: no, you will want the general langpacks for xfce,
too
10:32 pitti ogra: just not the gnome and kde ones, but you don't need
to install them
10:32 ogra pitti, yup
I will need to do seed admin, but somebody else could
10:32 Kamion probably manage the necessary code changes by
clone-and-hack, and I can review them
10:32 janim1 I am again willing to do the work if it's ok security-wise
10:32 Kamion the load issues are better now than they were last time we
talked
10:32 janim1 great
mdz: I'd be ok with helping Kamion out wrt cd builds,
10:33 Mithrandir since I'm fairly involved in at least the live part
already.
10:33 janim1 so good it could build daily images?
10:33 ogra me too
10:33 Kamion janim1: basically the only issue now is disk space, but I
can probably squeeze you in
10:33 ogra at least i'd like to be able to kick off my edubuntu
builds myself
10:33 mdz Mithrandir: I'm happy for you to have access to little for
that purpose
10:33 janim1 Kamion, thanks
10:33 pitti janim1: I look forward to trying an xfce live cd :)
10:33 janim1 pitti, me too honestly :)
10:33 sivang janim1: me too :)
10:33 Kamion other people with cdimage access are mdz, infinity,
Riddell
10:33 mdz ogra: likewise
10:34 ogra thanks :)
10:34 Kamion live CD work requires help from lamont or infinity
10:34 mdz I think there are a lot fewer gotchas now than there used
to be
10:34 mdz as far as triggering CD builds
10:34 mdz Kamion: any concerns there?
10:34 Mithrandir can we get remote triggering of the live fs builds??
10:34 Kamion mdz: nope; I need to brief each person on a few things
they need to do first and need to know, that's all
10:34 Mithrandir s/.$//
10:34 Kamion Mithrandir: I have it ...
10:34 mdz as do I
10:34 Kamion it's just an ssh key thing, if lamont/infinity trust you
10:34 mdz it's just a matter of adding new keys if more people need
it
10:35 Mithrandir mdz: ok.
10:35 Kamion Mithrandir should clearly have that for casper
development, IMO
10:35 mdz definitely
10:35 Kamion how do we want to manage xfce seeds?
10:35 mdz Mithrandir: I'll mail lamont/infinity and ask them to take
care of that
I'm usually fine, since infinity is up far too late for
10:35 Mithrandir his own health, but it would be nice not to rely on
somebody 10 time zones away.
10:35 mdz how are xfce seeds being managed so far?
10:35 elmo err
10:35 janim1 Kamion, as you wish
10:35 janim1 I keep them on localhost :)
10:36 Kamion janim1: in revision control?
10:36 janim1 but will move them public when needed
10:36 janim1 bzr branch of ubuntu-seeds
10:36 mdz janim1: oh, good
10:36 Kamion ok, if you could make those public, we can publish them on
chinstrap
10:36 mdz janim1: please do mirror your bzr branch publicly
10:36 janim1 Kamion, ok will let you know tomorrow
however we will need to be able to change them; I (and
10:36 Kamion others) relatively often make changes which need to be
applied quickly to all derivatives
10:37 janim1 then should we keep them under ~cjwatson ?
so maybe we can come up with some PQM arrangement or
10:37 Kamion something, or just merge requests if we can guarantee low
latency
they certainly have to be mirrored under ~cjwatson/seeds/
10:37 Kamion for everything to work (bus problem? moi?) but that can
just be a mirror
10:37 Kamion if you're happy for me to ping you from time to time with
urgent merges, that's fine
10:38 janim1 Kamion, I am fine with that
10:38 Kamion ok
10:38 mdz Kamion: you *so* did not just suggest PQM
10:38 ogra heh
10:38 Kamion mdz: pretend that my increased use of Launchpad due to
Malone is a bit like drug injection
10:39 Kamion causes hallucinations and fun stuff like that
10:39 sivang lol
=== Mithrandir chuckles
10:39 mdz janim1: bear in mind that we're doing a major
infrastructure migration for the package archive next week
10:39 ogra yes, malone can do that
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10:39 janim1 mdz, the soyuz thing?
janim1: so it's likely that we'll need to sort out a lot
10:39 mdz of issues there before we can do everything properly for
Xubuntu
10:39 mdz janim1: yes
10:39 janim1 should I wait till then?
10:39 janim1 it's ok with me
10:40 mdz janim1: no, I'm just warning you that there will be delays
on our side due to that
10:40 janim1 np
janim1: you already have cdimage and debian-cd checkouts
from my arch branches, right? if you could update those
10:40 Kamion and grep through for names of other derivatives (kubuntu
and edubuntu, chiefly), it should be relatively
straightforward to add xubuntu too
10:40 mdz janim1: what time zone are you in?
10:40 janim1 Kamion, yes I have and will do
10:40 janim1 UTC+2
10:40 Kamion oh, and 'find' as well as 'grep', there are some files
under debian-cd/tasks/ that need to be added
10:40 janim1 eastern europe
10:40 mdz janim1: ok, that's pretty close to Mithrandir, so if he
can run your CD builds for you, that should work
10:41 siretart mdz: major infrastructure migration next week? does this
mean/include sync requests via soyuz?
10:41 Mithrandir mdz: are you mailing admins for ogra's and my access to
little or should I?
10:41 mdz siretart: it's going to affect everything
10:41 mdz Mithrandir: please do
10:41 mdz Mithrandir: I've mailed about livefs triggering
10:41 mdz we need to move on, we're pushing 2 hours
10:42 mdz janim1: any urgent concerns?
10:42 janim1 mdz, nothing urgent
10:42 mdz ok
10:42 janim1 thanks
10:42 mdz I don't really want to discuss this next item unless joeyh
is actually here to talk to us
there's still a very active discussion happening on debian
10:42 mdz mailing lists, and we're not ready to start implementing
changes on behalf of individual debian developers yet
10:43 ogra it was a misinterpretation of the mail imho ...
10:43 mdz stephan is not here, either, so I'd like to defer this
item if it's OK with Keybuk/mjg59
10:43 janim1 Kamion, btw you're keeping cd-image in arch for now
instead of bzr?
10:43 Keybuk I agree, joeyh should come to the meeting
10:43 pitti janim1: the other way round
10:43 mjg59 I'm fine with deferring this
10:43 Kamion janim1: I do plan to move it, but it's backed up behind a
million other things to do as usual
10:43 mdz ok
10:43 Keybuk likewise \sh
10:43 mdz mjg59: libpam-foreground?
10:43 Keybuk can somebody e-mail him to let him know that?
10:44 siretart I will talk to him
10:44 mdz siretart: thanks
10:44 siretart mdz: what CAN we actually implement?
mdz: there has been a suggestion that we could modify
10:44 siretart dpkg-genchanges/dpkg-buildpackage, is this really
feasible?
10:44 Kamion madness
10:44 mdz siretart:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/05/msg00260.html
=== ogra thinks its not a question of implementing something, we have a
policy
10:44 siretart I mean at binary package building time?
10:45 Kamion any kind of global changes in Maintainer fields require
changes in the archive
10:45 elmo Kamion: it does?
10:45 Kamion siretart: no, that's daft, Maintainer could be overridden
on the archive side if we were going to go that route
10:45 mjg59 libpam-foreground needs to go in to the base installation
in order to let us do privileged hal operations sanely
10:45 elmo Kamion: how?
10:45 elmo Kamion: I think that's backwards
siretart: I outlined everything in that message, and the
10:45 mdz discussion is ongoing on debian-devel. no need to discuss
it here until there's a decision to be made
10:45 Kamion elmo: if we don't want to touch all packages or do MADNESS
like hacking dpkg, yes
10:45 elmo Kamion: I think we have to hack dpkg
10:45 Kamion I don't see any other alternative
10:45 mjg59 In order to do that, it needs to be in every interactive
login session
10:45 elmo Kamion: altering just the Packages file isn't sufficent
10:45 Kamion elmo: I think that's horrible and bad and wrong
10:45 mdz mjg59: libpam-foreground is something which now exists?
10:45 siretart mdz: so we defer this to the next meeting. ok
10:45 mjg59 mdz: Yes
10:45 Kamion it's good enough for most purposes
10:46 Mithrandir can we have one discussion at a time, please? :-)
10:46 mjg59 Now, I'm not too sure whether there's any consensus on
whta the best way to do that is
10:46 Kamion namely providing a contact for users using our package
management tools to see who the maintainer is
10:46 mdz siretart: indefinitely, until we actually have a proposal
from Debian about what they want us to do
10:46 elmo except package management tools like 'dpkg -I' :-P
10:46 mjg59 We can add it to common-session, but that runs for
non-interactive sessions as well
10:46 mjg59 (this may not make any significant difference)
=== Kamion cedes the floor to the other discussion
Actually, letting it run for non-interactive things as
10:47 mjg59 well results in "nobody" having permission to do things
like shut down the machine
10:47 mjg59 So that's probably not ideal
10:47 mjg59 In order to fix this, we need to alter the semantics of
conffiles in /etc/pam.d
10:48 mdz mjg59: the basic idea is to grant special privileges to a
user who seems to be at the console?
10:48 mjg59 mdz: When a user logs in, a file is created in
/var/run/console of the form username:vt_number
10:48 mdz could we address the issue of non-interactive logins
inside libpam-foreground itself?
10:48 mjg59 mdz: I'm not sure if it gets that information
10:48 mjg59 I can look into that
10:48 mdz it should get file descriptors
10:49 mjg59 Ok
10:49 mdz since pam runs in-process (right?), I don't think it can
close them
10:49 Mithrandir pam is in-process, yes.
10:49 mjg59 Ok. In that case we can probably do it without altering
semantics.
10:49 mdz yay
mjg59: isn't the whole problem with "if you have console,
10:49 Keybuk you have more privilegs" that once you've been on the
console, you can stash a setgid binary and always have
those privileges?
10:50 mjg59 Keybuk: No, because libpam-foreground doesn't grant you
any privileges
10:50 Keybuk or is this a different approach?
10:50 mdz Keybuk: it doesn't grant you any group memberships
10:50 mjg59 It creates a file - that's all
10:50 Keybuk creates a file?
10:50 mdz it just records, in a trusted location, the fact that
you're on the console
10:50 mdz and other programs can use that information to
authenticate you
dbus checks whether that file exists when you send a
10:50 mjg59 message, and optionally drops it if the user and vt don't
match
10:51 mjg59 Ok. I'm happy with that.
10:51 mdz cool
10:51 mjg59 Any other business?
mjg59: I hope you're creating the file with a
10:51 Mithrandir setuid/setgid helper? The authentication stuff might not
run as root. (think ssh)
10:51 ogra mjg59, reload the agenda ...
10:52 mdz ogra: that is not funny
10:52 sistpoty mjg59: I've added another point (at the beginning of the
meeting, sorry): UVF-handling for universe
10:52 ogra mdz, sistpoty added it ..
10:52 mjg59 Mithrandir: No, it's created by the process. We don't want
it in the case of ssh, so that's no problem
10:52 sistpoty ogra: maybe you could talk about that?
10:52 mdz sistpoty: if it's quick, please ask, otherwise we need to
defer to the next meeting
10:52 mdz we already had a backlog and have been here for a long
time
10:53 ogra we talked about general proxies as we had in breezy for
uvf exception requests
10:53 ogra in our motu meeting
10:53 ogra the question was just to whom these proxie people should
talk to
10:54 siretart escp. if sync requests are going to go via soyuz
10:54 ogra (i'm guessing Kamion and mdz as usual, but motu wants
names :) )
10:54 pitti mjg59: the main use case is that X creates the file,
right?
10:54 mdz ogra: still us, yes
10:54 ogra oki
10:54 mdz is that all?
10:54 siretart mdz: wait
10:54 ogra sistpoty, thats ok with you for the proxy stuff ?
10:54 siretart mdz: we shall bug you about EVERY package in universe for
UVF exception?
10:54 mdz soyuz isn't going to change anything immediately regarding
syncs
10:55 mjg59 pitti: Yes
10:55 ogra siretart, thats what the proxies are for ...
10:55 mdz siretart: isn't the purpose of the proxies to batch and
filter the requests?
10:55 siretart argl, sorry I was misreading
10:55 ogra they must decide how critical it is
10:55 mdz ok
10:55 mdz we need to close
10:55 mdz for general health and sanity
10:55 raphink hehe
10:55 sivang indeed
10:55 ogra :)
10:55 sistpoty :)
10:55 siretart :)
10:56 mdz I'll flush the agenda shortly, antyhnig new can be added
then
10:56 mdz meanwhile, adjourned
10:56 mdz thanks everyone, especially those who had to wait a long
time for their turn
MeetingLogs/Technical_2006-01-17 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:31:17 by localhost)