Technical_2006-03-14

09:00 Keybuk           ok
09:00 Keybuk           by my clock, it is now 8pm
09:00 GFDL             ok
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09:00 Cached           So we just get to watch them have all the fun?
09:00 Keybuk           sabdfl and mdz are aware today, so I'm driving
09:00 Keybuk           mjg59 is here, so we are quorate
09:00 mjg59            s/aware/away/
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09:00 Keybuk           uh, yes
09:00 Keybuk           I didn't say my driving was any good :)
09:00 raphink          yes it's o'clock now
09:00 Keybuk           IMPORTANT NOTE
09:00 Keybuk           THIS IS NOT A MEETING TO DISCUSS THE DAPPER DELAY
09:01 mjg59            Ok. There's a lot on the agenda. What order are we going to take this in?
09:01 Keybuk           If you wanted to attend those meetings, you missed them, sorry;  read the IRC logs
                       and posted summaries to find out what happened
09:01 Keybuk           We'll be going down the usual TB agenda, and if your hot topic isn't on there ...
                       *now* ... please wait until the end of the meeting
09:01 ogra             wow, sladen owns the agenda
09:01 Keybuk           mjg59: top-down I guess
09:01 raphink          hehe
09:01 Keybuk           unless there is anyone here who has an agenda item and needs to make a fast exit?
09:02 Kamion           I'd like to get away soon, but I'm early on the agenda anyway
09:02 Keybuk           Kamion: let's do you first then, as I think we have a few candiates today
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09:02 Keybuk           floor is yours
09:02 ogra             i think the first topic is a no brainer
                       "Should we produce new installer and CD images for this [WWW]  serious installer
                       vulnerability? At present, users installing Breezy must make sure to upgrade from
09:02 Kamion           -security before adding any other local users, which I think will result in a
                       number of vulnerable systems in practice. On the other hand, it's not as if we can
                       rev shipit CDs at this point."
09:02 Kamion           link being http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-262-1, in case anyone somehow managed to
                       miss it
09:03 GFDL             Kamion, I wanted to ask that too in todays meeting
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09:03 Kamion           so, we regained a fair bit of the enormously bad press from the vulnerability by
                       doing a same-day fix
09:03 Kamion           a number of people asked whether we'd be making updated images available
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09:04 Keybuk           Kamion: how much work would it be to make updated images?
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09:04 Keybuk           I guess only -install matters?
                       Kamion: if the CD images are just a rebuild, yes.  If shipit CDs are going to
09:04 sladen           continue being posted through the 6-week extension, yes.  And if not, other people
                       like cheeplinux and private pressers may benefit
09:04 Kamion           I chatted briefly to mdz about it, and he said he didn't see a great need, but
                       didn't really clarify why
09:04 ogra             Kamion, would be helpful for iso downloaders, dapper is still not stable, so we'd
                       save people from the bug
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09:04 Kamion           I don't have a good reason not to other than "might be a fair bit of work", which I
                       don't think really cuts it for a problem this serious
09:04 mjg59_           Network problems appear at the most inopportune moments
09:04 Kamion           frankly
09:04 ogra             the prob i see is an out-of-sync with shipit
09:04 Kamion           Keybuk: yes, -live isn't affected
09:05 ogra             since we wont press new ones
09:05 Kamion           ogra: that's a downside, but we can label it clearly
09:05 Kamion           Keybuk: there is a certain amount of faff involved
09:05 mjg59_           What is the shipit process? Are they actually pressed in large batches, or more on
                       an on-demand basis?
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09:05 Kamion           if I'm going to fix it properly, we need to somehow get a rebuild of
                       debian-installer into breezy-updates
09:05 pitti            Kamion: can't we give the updated CD a new version number?
                       Kamion: could you take the previous CD and just hack it with the fixed package,
09:05 sladen           rather than building completely fresh CDs from the archive with all the other
                       updates on them?
09:05 minghua          I think releasing a CD with different name (5.10a?) also raise the awareness of
                       said bug
09:05 minghua          which is good
09:05 Kamion           pitti: that's part of labelling
09:05 pitti            Kamion: so that we don't change the original images?
09:05 pitti            ah
09:05 Kamion           sladen: that's bloody hard work in this case and I won't
09:05 ajmitch          Kamion: would it solely be this fix included, or others from breezy-updates?
09:05 Keybuk           my gut says that because the vulnerability is in the installer, there's more of a
                       reason to update the CDs than the usual security reasons
09:06 Kamion           er, breezy-security not breezy-updates I mean
09:06 Kamion           ajmitch: breezy-security, and probably a roll-up of all fixes to date
09:06 fooishbar        D
09:06 fooishbar        (sorry.)
09:06 Kamion           which may not be a bad thing anyway
09:06 sladen           Kamion: bloody hard work --- rebuilding the whole CD, or just replacing the broken
                       package?
09:06 mjg59_           Kamion: I think from a PR point of view, it would be advantageous to avoid shipping
                       CD images we know to have a major problem
09:06 pitti            I got several mails and IRC questions about when we'll release new CDs, so users
                       expect it
09:06 mjg59_           The shipit problem is presumably insurmountable, so should just be ignored in this
                       case
09:06 Kamion           so, the hard bit is that the correct fix for this problem is spread over a lot of
                       places
09:07 Kamion           there are core problems in cdebconf, which I've fixed in d-i svn
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09:07 Kamion           fixing those also requires rebuilding debian-installer (to update the initrd)
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                       if we (or should I say Kamion) was to do this, we could put all securityfixes in to
09:07 dholbach         such a release CD - but we didn't really do "security CDs" before, so I don't see
                       the need why we should do it now
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09:07 mjg59            Keybuk: Should we do the more pressing stuff ahead of the candidate review?
09:07 Kamion           initial-passwd-udeb should be fixed to make sure to clear out the password from the
                       database
09:08 ogra             dholbach, because the flaw is somewhat bigger ...
09:08 Kamion           and prebaseconfig and installation-report need to be changed to make the logs
                       world-unreadable
09:08 ogra             and it might get us good press as well ...
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09:08 pitti            dholbach: well, it leaves a trivial gaping root hole for peopel who install from
                       CDs; it's the worst hole we had so far
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09:08 Kamion           dholbach: it's harder *not* to include everything else in breezy-security than it
                       is just to include it
09:08 mjg59_           Kamion: Are there any especially awkward problems, or is it just something that
                       takes time?
09:08 Keybuk           My vote is to update the CDs, I think; it seems prudent
                       sladen: fixes in lots of places, would have to establish a well-publicised source
09:09 Kamion           repository somewhere to satisfy GPL etc. - less work to just punt through
                       breezy-security frankly
09:09 dholbach         Kamion: I see, then it'd make sense to discuss a security release.
09:09 ogra             Keybuk++
                       my worry is that the new package set will be larger than the CD size, meaning that
09:09 sladen           you have to drop something and the package set != to the previous Breezy install
                       set
09:09 Kamion           I realise we've not done a security CD before, and we hoped we wouldn't have to
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09:09 Kamion           which is why I brought it up here
09:09 Keybuk           Kamion: we may end up doing them for dapper, given its long support cycle; it could
                       be a good test
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09:09 ogra             yeah
09:10 pitti            keybuk was faster with typing, my thought
09:10 Kamion           mjg59_: figuring out how to get debian-installer into breezy-security will be the
                       only really hard bit; I may have to talk to cprov and Kinnison for that
09:10 zeus             what would be involved in a security cd release ?
09:10 Moox             Dapper desktop will be suported during 3 years. Does this mean there will be only
                       security updates on apps and no big update ? (eq gaim 1.5->2.0)
09:10 ogra             zeus, mainly Kamion
09:10 Keybuk           zeus: Kamion has just covered that
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09:10 Kamion           zeus: rebuild CDs with packages from breezy + breezy-security, test lots and lots
09:10 Keybuk           Moox: that is off topic; please see the Ubuntu wiki for the answer to that question
09:10 mjg59_           Kamion: Ok. If this is something that would potentially have to be done in the
                       dapper timeframe /anyway/, it seems reasonable
09:11 mjg59            I think security images/scheduling/candidate review/everything else might be a plan
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09:11 mjg59_           I think I'm with keybuk - it sounds like we ought to do this
                       we're putting in a number of changes now to make this whole class of vulnerability
09:11 Kamion           impossible in the future, but obviously I wouldn't like to entirely rule out the
                       possibility of some other serious flaw
09:11 Seveas           Kamion, if you need help testing the install CD - poke me
09:11 Keybuk           Kamion: are you happy to do it?  Feel free to rope in anyone else to help
                       (including me, given I have all three archs)
09:11 mjg59_           Anyone have any violent objections?
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09:11 Kamion           I'm happy to do the code changes, but given my other responsibilities I will only
                       have time for cursory testing
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09:12 pitti            I'm happy to help out with testing
09:12 ogra             me too
                       it's more than a bit embarassing that the CDs going out from the factory still have
09:12 sladen           that hole on them.  We're lucky, if this was Microsoft, they would have to have
                       destoried all the stocked CDs so far and start again
09:12 Kamion           sladen: point taken; let me just check sizes
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09:12 kbrooks          hi.
09:12 kbrooks          ping.
09:12 Keybuk           sladen: I'll talk to Jane about whether we can replace the ISO images they have
09:12 Kamion           sladen: we have between 5MB and 33MB free on CD images, varying by architecture
09:12 mjg59_           sladen: That's not entirely true. Windows CDs with critical security flaws have
                       been shipped before
09:12 Kamion           in breezy
09:12 Keybuk           iirc. ship-it operates in on-demand batches, so it may be possible to do it; I'm
                       not sure when the breezy run stops though
09:12 mjg59_           (known critical security flaws)
09:12 kbrooks          can someone summarize the meeting for me?
09:13 pitti            Kamion: I can't remember any security update that changed the size of the packages
                       *apart* from firefox
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09:13 Kamion           I think we're probably safe - it seems unlikely that we would manage to suck up 5MB
09:13 Kamion           kbrooks: logs are available on the web, http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/
09:13 Kamion           irclogs/
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09:13 pitti            right, even ffox 1.0.7->1.0.8 had only trivial changes
09:13 raphink          kbrooks: the agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
09:13 sladen           Kamion: excellent.
09:13 pitti            erm, -1 on both
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09:13 Kamion           pitti: ?
09:13 mjg59_           Ok. I think we've come to a consensus here.
09:14 sladen           pitti: -1 on which and which?
09:14 pitti            Kamion: I meant, it was 1.0.6->1.0.7, not 1.0.8
09:14 Kamion           ok
09:14 pitti            sorry for the confusion
09:14 Keybuk           Kamion: you can name the CD version how you see fit :)
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09:14 mjg59            Kamion: You here?
09:14 Kamion           yes
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                       I would like to wonder the possibilities of ubuntu cds essentially being
09:14 enyc             autogenerated... so they can be autogenerated with 'all secutrity updates relating
                       to apckages in the base install CD'.... ;-)
09:14 mjg59_           Kamion: Sorry, my other session has finally caught up
09:14 Kamion           enyc: sorry, at present I sit with a magnet building the CD images by hand on a
                       hard disk
09:15 raphink          enyc: that means md5sums are not fixed with release then
09:15 Keybuk           ok, let's move on
09:15 Kamion           takes bloody forever, I can tell you
09:15 mjg59_           Right. Dapper rescheduling?
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09:15 enyc             Kamion: I see I seee ;-)   skay no matter ;-)
09:15 Keybuk           so Kamion can go play
09:15 XderalteX        Hi, what was the result of the meeting about postponing dapper?
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09:15 Kamion           ok, thanks guys
09:15 Keybuk           mjg59_: I think mdz/sabdfl want to postpone that to a combined meeting with the CC
09:15 mjg59_           Keybuk: Ugh. Right. Any idea when?
09:15 zeus             Keybuk, CC ??
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09:16 Kamion           enyc: (in other words, they already are autogenerated)
09:16 Keybuk           given neither of them are here, and they haven't yet announced a decision wrt to
                       the delay, I don't see how we can talk about it :)
09:16 Keybuk           mjg59_: none
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09:16 mjg59_           Ok. Candidate review?
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09:16 Keybuk           "sabdfl fails to turn up for his own agenda item" :)
09:16 Kamion           Mark would like the TB to look at freeze scheduling changes for dapper if the delay
                       is accepted
09:16 ogra             mjg59_, sladen ?
09:16 enyc             Kamion: ok ;-)
09:16 Kamion           before the CC/TB combined discussion
09:16 Keybuk           sladen: weren't you approved already?
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09:17 sladen           Keybuk: to the best of my memory, yes
09:17 ogra             Keybuk, but not in LP
09:17 ogra             it slipped through i guess ...
09:17 Kamion           it predated ubuntu-core-dev management in LP
09:17 sladen           "somebody dropped lost key"
09:17 Keybuk           Kamion: ok, we'll do that after candidates then
09:18 Keybuk           raphink: ping?
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09:18 raphink          pong
=== raphink is Raphal Pinson
09:18 raphink          I've got an introduction text on my application here
                       https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaphaelPinson#head-afebebcae54ad32367aef6746d6e83eb22da8218
09:18 ogra             two liner ?
09:18 raphink          to make it short
                       I am currently an active MOTU, particularly in Kubuntu. Lately, I have been
09:18 raphink          focusing on fixing bugs and improving the Kubuntu desktop, working actively with
                       AnthonyMercatante as the Kubuntu French MOTU Team (hehe). This implies working with
                       packages in main, and getting them sponsored for upload afterwards.
09:19 raphink          There are not that many Kubuntu MOTUs but in order to help the current lack of
                       Kubuntu core-devs I would like to apply for core-dev at this time.
09:19 raphink          I cannot be clearer: the main reason why I'm applying is to unblock uploads to main
                       in Kubuntu, because I want Dapper to rock hard!
09:19 Keybuk           Riddell: are you here?
09:19 Riddell          I support raphink
09:19 raphink          :)
09:19 Riddell          he's been forwarding me fixes to packages in main
09:19 Riddell          and I've been blocking when I've been busy with other stuff
09:19 ogra             raphink, are you aware that you can touch *every* package in main then, even the
                       kernel etc ?
09:20 raphink          yes ogra
09:20 ogra             and do you feel ready to do that ?
09:20 Riddell          his fixes rarely need any changes, he's always very thourough
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09:20 raphink          ogra: I think as the MOTU team leader you know my habbit is to aask questions
                       before doing things I dont know
09:20 raphink          I will never release a fix without asking the opinion of other people and testing
                       it
=== raphink spend hours testing kde fixes before giving them up to riddell lately
09:21 raphink          s/spend/spent/
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09:21 ogra             raphink, i trust your packaging, dont worry ... i just wanted to point out the big
                       responsibility that comes with main rights
09:21 Keybuk           ogra: your tone sounds like you don't support his application?
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09:22 ogra             Keybuk, i do
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09:22 raphink          ogra: i'm totally aware of this responsability
09:22 raphink          :)
09:22 Keybuk           how's his work with MOTU been?
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suggestions/comments/questions about postponing Dapper Drake - DO NOT DO THAT - you will be muted | Logs
of the dapper meeting: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperDelayMeetingProcess
09:22 ogra             Keybuk, raphnik has reviewed way more packages than i did before applying for main
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09:22 raphink          I've been involved in reviewing since before being a MOTU
09:22 Keybuk           ok
09:22 ogra             he does good packages and givers good suggestions on REVU
09:23 ogra             *gives
09:23 Keybuk           your application is very thorough, I must say; I've got no questions for you :)
09:23 dholbach         yes, he did awesome work, was proactive, helped people out.
09:23 Keybuk           mjg59_: any questions?
09:23 mjg59_           No, I think I'm happy
09:23 Keybuk           ok, let's vote then
09:23 Keybuk           +1 from me
09:23 mjg59_           Having more work on KDE in main would be good, it's certainly lagging behind in
                       integration
09:23 mjg59_           +1
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09:23 ogra             welcome raphink :)
09:23 raphink          :D :D
09:23 raphink          tanks guys :)
09:23 raphink          thanks
09:24 pitti            welcome raphink
09:24 Keybuk           I'm assuming Joel Bryan is not here?
09:24 Seveas           congratz raphink
09:24 RAPIST           so are they going to delay the release?
09:24 dholbach         rocknroll, congratulations raphink
09:24 sivang           whee!
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=== sivang high fives raphink
09:24 dholbach         RAPIST: wrong meeting
09:24 Surak            congrats raphink
09:24 david`bgk        congrats raphink
09:24 raphink          thanks Seveas,pitti ogra sivant Surak:)
09:24 ogra             :)
09:24 freeflying-ibook congrats raphink
09:24 mjg59_           Ok.
09:24 raphink          thanks freeflying-ibook && good luck :)
09:25 mjg59_           Do we have Joel Bryan?
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09:25 ogra             desnt look like
09:25 dholbach         mjg59_: I'll mail him.
09:25 mjg59_           Ok.
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09:25 mjg59_           MOTU?
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09:25 crimsun          it doesn't look like he is
09:25 mjg59_           Who's new since last time?
09:25 ogra             daf ?
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09:25 mjg59_           daf appears to be missing...
09:25 lotusleaf        hi :)
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09:26 minghua          I am new, I added myself for approval just yesterday :-)
09:26 sladen           he was around an hour ago
=== minghua is Ming Hua
09:26 Kamion           mjg59_: you are ideally placed to hunt him down, surely
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09:26 mjg59_           Kamion: He's sprinting
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09:26 sivang           launchpad sprint
09:26 sivang           I suppose
09:27 Keybuk           minghua: ok, tell us why you'd like to join the MOTU :)
09:27 DapperxDrake     so are they going to delay the dapper release or what?
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09:27 jjesse           some people just don't learn  :)
09:27 Seveas           DapperDrake, see /topic - wrong time
09:27 minghua          okay, I have been working with other MOTUs for a few months, and I've been doing
                       merges, transitions, bugfixes
09:28 minghua          my wiki is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MingHua, launchpad
                       https://launchpad.net/people/minghua
09:28 Kamion           DapperxDrake: barging into meetings and asks off-topic questions is rude. You
                       wouldn't do it in real life, would you?
09:28 Keybuk           can you give some examples of the areas you've been working on, and what you'd like
                       to work on next?
09:28 Kamion           s/asks/asking/
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09:28 ogra             dsaa, edmota, jdong, JohnnyMast, minghua, freeflying and jjmmma are the candidates
                       i think
09:28 ogra             please speak up if you are here
09:28 Seveas           ogra, JohnnyMast - lol....
09:28 minghua          I am applying MOTU so that I can upload my fixes directly, mostly for scim related
                       packages
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09:29 ogra             minghua, you are a DD, right ?
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09:29 minghua          (but scim is entering main, so I am not so sure), but I still do other bugfixes
09:29 pitti            minghua: NB that they are in main now, so even as MOTU you can't do that (but it's
                       the path to main upload privs, right)
09:29 minghua          ogra: no, but I am debian (co-)maintainer of quite a few scim packages
09:30 dholbach         and I'd be happy to sponsor minghua's uploads, as he always did good work.
09:30 Keybuk           ogra, dholbach: do you have anything to add to minghua's application?
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09:30 minghua          I do plan to apply for DD if that's relevant
09:30 ogra             Keybuk, only a ++
09:30 crimsun          I've uploaded a dozen or so of minghua's scim & fonts fixes
09:30 Amaranth         minghua is the one that got us rolling on making scim work right
09:30 minghua          pitti: yes I am aware of that, but one step at a time, I suppose :-)
09:30 ogra             he pushed scim forward when there was no team around CJK yet
09:30 dholbach         he's considerate, helped out, motivated and was an asset for MOTU wannabes, when
                       they had questions
09:30 ogra             mostly on his own
09:30 mjg59_           I'm all for anyone who can improve our localisation support
09:31 Surak            dholbach, ogra: ++
09:31 pitti            I'd welcome minhua
09:31 Keybuk           mjg59_: any questions for minghua ?
09:31 minghua          and I do plan to post my patches before upload, so other people can comment
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09:31 minghua          I think that is very important for MOTU to work together
09:31 mjg59_           minghua: Is your long term aim to apply for main privileges?
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09:32 minghua          I am currently subscribed in launchpad for all scim packages I maintain in Debian,
                       and comments on almost every bug received
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09:32 minghua          mjg59_: now scim is in main, so yes I do plan to apply for main priviledges
09:33 mjg59_           minghua: Ok, that's good to know
09:33 minghua          I want to take care of scim packages (and in general other CJK l10n related
                       packages, such as fonts) in ubuntu
09:33 atie_            BIG support from me for Ming.
09:33 ogra             atie_, not only from you ;)
09:33 mjg59_           minghua: At some point it would be good to document font issues, so it's easier for
                       people to work this stuff out
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09:33 mjg59_           But that's not a prerequisite :)
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09:34 Keybuk           +1 from me
09:34 minghua          mjg59_: I think you are aware that bubulle is trying to form an font team in
                       debian, and I defintely will participate in that
09:34 minghua          (and communicate/collaborates with MOTUs)
09:34 minghua          for the font issues
09:34 Chousuke         Is the second meeting over already? what is this conversation about?
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=== mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %Chousuke!*@*] by Seveas
09:35 mjg59_           minghua: Excellent
09:35 dholbach         Chousuke: read the topic
09:35 mjg59_           +1 from me
09:35 minghua          Chousuke: agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda, and please
                       read topic before asking
09:35 ogra             Chousuke,  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
09:35 Keybuk           ok, welcome aboard minghua
09:35 dholbach         welcome minghua
09:35 ogra             welcome minghua !!
09:35 minghua          thanks mjg59_ and Keybuk
09:35 ogra             :)
09:35 dholbach         I'm happy to see you in the team!
09:35 ogra             yeah
09:35 ogra             me as well
09:35 pitti            great to see you on board, minghua
09:36 Keybuk           are any other candidates here today?
=== freeflying-ibook is freeflying
09:36 mjg59_           freeflying-ibook: Around?
09:36 mjg59_           Excellent
09:36 minghua          and thanks everyone who showed up for support :-)
09:36 mjg59_           Want to introduce yourself?
09:36 Seveas           (dholbach and others - I'm being the bad police guy and insta-mute - I also notify
                       in PM so no need to msg the channel more
09:36 Seveas           )
                       I come from China ,my name is Hou ZhengPeng have worked with kubuntu-team for
09:36 freeflying-ibook months , and my major work is on Input Method and make ubuntu can support chinese
                       better . And my goal is make ubuntu more friendly to our chinese people , and
                       spread it in china  So I hope I can be a motu , and do more and more for my goal
09:36 Surak            minghua: congrats
09:36 atie_            congrats! minghua
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09:36 freeflying-ibook congrats minghua
09:37 ogra             i guess Riddell worked with you on packaging ?
09:37 sladen           freeflying-ibook: have you talked to minghua or any of the other people working in
                       a similar area?
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09:37 Riddell          I support freeflying-ibook, he's been a great help getting cjk support into
                       kubuntu, and has worked on a number of packages
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09:37 minghua          sladen (and others): freeflying-ibook has been mainly working on the KDE half of
                       the scim related stuff
09:37 minghua          which I am not familar with
09:37 freeflying-ibook sladen: ya, i've talked with minghua about scim and also other people ,such as
                       atie_
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09:38 Riddell          his packages need changed often but he's quick to make fixes and learns fast
09:38 Riddell          s/need/needed/
09:38 raphink          I was not too happy with freeflying-ibook lately
09:38 ogra             Riddell, are you confident he's ready for working alone on universe packages yet
09:38 raphink          but I asked him to review a bit to learn more
09:38 raphink          and he's been improving quite fast
09:38 raphink          in the last week
09:38 raphink          and asking good questions
09:39 Riddell          ogra: yes, so long as he gets his changelogs proofread for english :)
09:39 ogra             heh
09:39 ogra             nah, we need to learn chinese ;)
09:40 Riddell          that's the alternative
=== Keybuk has always wanted to learn chinese
09:40 Keybuk           (random)
09:40 minghua          freeflying-ibook: I want to know your opinion on using launchpad
09:40 atie_            he's big help for skim, I support him. :)
09:40 Surak            ogra: china is becoming so important than in some years the rest of the world will
                       become irrelevant (I'm studying chinese anyway :-) )
09:40 freeflying-ibook minghua: I'd like to use
09:40 ogra             heh
09:40 minghua          freeflying-ibook: I see that most of your patches aren't posted to launchpad and no
                       malone bugs either
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09:41 minghua          freeflying-ibook: I assume for kde packages you keep good contact with Riddell
09:41 Riddell          he does
09:41 freeflying-ibook minghua: if there has bugs, i will attach my patch on
09:41 minghua          freeflying-ibook: but for scim package I am subscribed to the packages I am
                       interested in, and you don't send patches there
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09:42 Keybuk           ogra, dholbach: have you worked with freeflying-ibook much yet?
09:42 ogra             nope
09:42 ogra             i dont know KDE :)
09:42 freeflying-ibook minghua: for scim , there is seldom patch for it
09:42 minghua          freeflying-ibook: for
                       https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/scim-pinyin/+bug/34413 you did not
09:43 dholbach         Keybuk: I didn't work much with him, sorry.
09:43 Amaranth         minghua: i'm not sure this is the right time
09:43 minghua          freeflying-ibook: I got your debdiff because I asked you (as Debian upstream
                       maintainer)
09:43 freeflying-ibook minghua: before this uploaded , I mail you debdiff
09:43 ogra             Keybuk, i tend to belive Riddell and since he'll break his packages i'm fine with
                       reputation from him :)
09:43 minghua          freeflying-ibook: but I would appreciate you do these in a more open way, so more
                       people can get involved
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                       my instinct suggests that freeflying is making good contributions to Ubuntu, and
09:43 Keybuk           should continue to do so; but isn't yet well acquainted enough with our procedures
                       and systems to formally join the team
09:44 freeflying-ibook minghua: about scim and relate stuff , idon't think now is good time to talk about
09:44 Keybuk           would anybody like to disagree with that and raise support?
09:44 atie_            minghua, I'd like to see yours and freeflying's efforts coordinated since you need
                       help for KDE part.
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09:44 minghua          Amaranth: I am hoping he can use launchpad more, because I don't want to read
                       dapper-changes to see a surprise
09:44 ogra             Riddell, ?
09:44 minghua          atie_: yes, I am trying to figure a way to cooperate with him
09:45 Riddell          as I've said, I'm happy with his work for MOTU
09:45 Keybuk           mjg59: any questions/comments?
09:45 minghua          I am not unhappy with freeflying-ibook's changes to universe
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09:45 mjg59_           I'd agree with Scott for now. I don't want to see Kubuntu be a poor second cousin
                       in terms of localisation support, but I have a couple of qualms right now
09:45 minghua          but as people said, there need to be cooperations, and I currently have problems
                       with cooperating with freeflying-ibook
09:46 minghua          I don't necessarily need to care, though
09:46 Keybuk           freeflying-ibook: thanks for your contributions so far, please do continue them
                       :)  however we're going to defer you for now.
09:46 sladen           minghua: could you work on sponsoring more of freeflying-ibook's uploads on the
                       packages that you look after (if they're in Universe)
09:46 Keybuk           freeflying-ibook: please work more closely with other scim maintainers, and the
                       other MOTU; also try to use launchpad more, especially Malone
09:46 freeflying-ibook minghua: actually it's you say that you don't care the main inclusion of scim , so
                       how can i cooperate with y
09:47 Keybuk           not in the least because we use Launchpad to see your work
09:47 Keybuk           and at the moment your launchpad page shows very little activity
09:47 minghua          sladen: pitti said most scim packages are in main now
09:47 sladen           flikkeh: you have some excellent unique skills---that few other people here know
                       about, please stick around and keep at it
09:47 minghua          sladen: but if he posted other CJK related patches, I would be more than happy to
                       review and upload
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09:48 sladen           minghua: I'm sure he will be :)
09:48 Keybuk           ok, let's move on
09:48 Keybuk           jdong doesn't appear to be here
09:48 Keybuk           and none of the other candidates are members yet
09:48 Keybuk           sladen: I'm not entirely sure what your first agenda item is actually *about*
09:48 Keybuk           could you summaries what you'd like us to discuss and decide here?
09:49 sladen           Keybuk: first or third?
09:49 Keybuk           first
09:49 Keybuk           "granted main upload..."
09:49 ogra             Keybuk, jdong didnt do *any* packaging with MOTU yet
09:49 minghua          freeflying-ibook: also feel free to mail me if you have any patches for packages in
                       universe that you feel not suitable for malone
09:50 ogra             Keybuk, being added to the LP team where he was missed out :)
09:50 freeflying-ibook minghua: thx for your advice
09:50 sladen           Keybuk: it's irrelevant now, the ticky box in LP has been clicked
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09:50 mjg59_           sladen: I think that we should avoid discussing the new features stuff until the
                       decision has been made on scheduling
09:50 Keybuk           sladen: ok :)
09:50 mjg59_           Would you mind if we left that until later?
09:51 Keybuk           madwifi-ng is not being held because of lack of time
09:51 sladen           mjg59_: it would make sense.  It's dependent on that
09:51 Keybuk           it's being held because it flat-out doesn't work on amd64 :-)
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09:51 mjg59_           Keybuk: The plan is to add it to l-r-m for x86 in any case, but anyway
09:51 mjg59_           (Not replacing madwifi)
09:51 Keybuk           aye
09:52 Keybuk           ok, let's look at that last item
09:52 Keybuk           and then go back to Mark's
09:52 Seveas           (from the nm-mailinglist: madwifi-ng cvs is quite crackful lately)
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09:52 Keybuk           sladen: what's the strange behaviour you have noticed?
09:53 Keybuk           the most usual thing I notice is either an "0ubuntu1" upload to Ubuntu and a "1" to
                       Debian that are identical
09:53 sladen           Keybuk: *blink*?
09:53 Keybuk           or a "1" to both with different target distros
                       sladen: "PaulSladen: Syncs from external repositories. I've noticed a few people
09:53 Keybuk           doing fake uploads of duplicate packages into order to speed up the development
                       cycle."
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09:53 ogra             sladen, that was advised
09:53 sladen           Keybuk: syching back from Debian is taking a while
09:53 dholbach         I suppose he meant 1build1 uploads
09:53 ogra             because the LP sync mechanism isnt in place yet
09:54 slomo            yes, and it doesn't add a new delta as -Xbuild1 would be automatically synced and
                       overwritten by the autosyncer with -(X+1)
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09:54 Keybuk           sladen: syncing back from Debian doesn't happen at all right now, unless you have a
                       UVF exception, no?
09:54 ogra             XbuildX versions are overridden by autosyncs later
09:54 mjg59_           Keybuk: It doesn't happen at all right now
09:54 sladen           Keybuk: see note at the end
09:54 mjg59_           Even for UVF exceptions
09:54 Keybuk           I must admit, I'm completely baffled here
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09:54 ogra             Keybuk, there was a backlog on elmos side
09:54 Keybuk           sladen: could you give us a 1-line summary of the decision required?
09:55 sladen           mjg59_: if packages are uploaded to Debian (to save having deltas against upstream)
09:55 sladen           s/mjg59_//
09:55 ogra             to get that done without LP it was asked that MOTU does XbuildX uploads
09:55 sladen           Keybuk: "what do do about syncs from Debian not happening"
09:55 mjg59_           sladen: I think the actual problem here is "syncs are not happening", not "it needs
                       to be easier to do syncs"
09:55 mjg59_           And the technical board is not in a position to fix the former of these
09:55 Keybuk           "easier to do syncs" is a firm Launchpad spec
09:55 sladen           Keybuk: when there is a preference to send packages to Upstream---we can't do this
                       if the system is broken
09:56 ogra             Keybuk, "do syncs at all"
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09:56 slomo            mjg59_: but the TB is fine with doing "fakesyncs", i.e. -Xbuild1 uploads?
09:56 mjg59_           sladen: And the problem is "the system is broken". That's not what we can solve.
09:56 ogra             sladen, where is the system broken ?
09:56 Keybuk           syncs are currently somewhere between elmo, launchpad and katie as I understand it
09:56 mjg59_           slomo: I would really prefer not to, but in the absence of anything else...
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09:56 Keybuk           none of which have TB-oversight
09:56 ogra             Keybuk, syncs are manually done by MOTU currently ...
09:57 ogra             and not for TB, right
09:57 Keybuk           sladen: where is the fixed sync system you are proposing we use?
09:57 ogra             it was an informal advise to use XbuildX  for now
09:57 mjg59_           ogra: No, something that approximates syncs are manually done by MOTU currently
09:57 sladen           mjg59_: so what I'm after is guidance about how to cope with the system being
                       broken.  What's the offical workaround?
09:57 dholbach         I consider this discussion to be somewhat artificial, all we seem to be doing is
                       determining, that things could work better.
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09:57 Keybuk           sladen: the official workaround is to do an upload of "XbuildX"
09:58 mjg59_           Anyway. I think it's clear we can't really do anything here
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09:58 Keybuk           indeed.  It's known to be broken.  It's on the list of things to fix.
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09:58 Keybuk           And there is a workaround which is being used.
09:58 mjg59_           So. Hypothetical dapper schedule. Does someone have a link to the current schedule
                       for reference?
09:58 minghua          I think sladen want to ask TB to confirm that "-Xbuild1" fakesync uploads are okay
                       for the current situation
09:59 Keybuk           http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointFifteen
09:59 Keybuk           ^ is the GNOME 2.15 proposed schedule
09:59 minghua          because some MOTUs are still not sure if it's correct to do so
09:59 Seveas           mjg59, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
09:59 Keybuk           minghua: I don't think there's a TB decision there though; unless there is an
                       argument *not* to do it that way
10:00 minghua          Keybuk: good, I have no questions then :-)
10:00 Keybuk           hypothetical dapper+6 weeks release would put it on June 1st
10:00 sladen           Keybuk: groovy, ta
10:00 mjg59_           Right.
10:00 mjg59_           Currently we have passed every freeze except beta, string and documentation
10:00 mjg59_           Code should only be changing to fix bugs
10:00 Nafallo          mjg59: except kernel aswell.
10:00 ltibor65_        Who is TB-member here?
10:01 mjg59_           Unless there are specific feature goals, I don't think anyone is going to argue
                       that we should lift the current freezes
10:01 ogra             hmm, polish might also mean UI changes
10:01 Keybuk           given the emphasis on localisation, it actually makes some sense to me to thaw the
                       UI freeze just in case changes need to be made
10:01 mjg59_           Keybuk: Ok. UI freeze sounds like a good exception.
10:01 Surak            for the translators a reminder: string freeze is scheduled for the day after
                       tomorrow
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10:01 mjg59_           As another reminder: No decision has been made on the delay as yet. Do not assume
                       that it will happen.
10:01 ogra             string freeze might also move i think
10:02 mjg59_           The fact that we are discussing this now does not mean that it will happen.
10:02 ogra             as well as doc freeze
10:02 mjg59_           This discussion is purely to determine what schedule we will follow if the delay
                       /does/ take place
10:02 Keybuk           I'd push the entire March block into April
10:02 pitti            given that rosetta doesn't yet import everything in dapper, string freeze can
                       certainly slip for one or two weeks
10:02 ogra             yeah
10:02 Keybuk           so leave us in FeatureFreeze
10:02 mjg59_           Keybuk: Keeping the weeks the same? That sounds good.
10:02 Keybuk           with a BetaRelease on April 20th
10:02 sivang           maybe we'd better wait for when a schedule has been decided? or , at least brought
                       for review?
10:02 mjg59_           sivang: We decide the schedule.
10:02 sivang           mjg59_: now? :)
10:02 mjg59_           Yes.
10:03 ogra             theats what we do
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10:03 pitti            sivang: it's IF delay is done THEN this new plan becomes active, not more
10:03 mjg59_           Or rather, we are currently deciding what the schedule will be if the delay takes
                       place.
10:03 sivang           pitti: thakns for the clarification.
10:03 mjg59_           Keybuk: That's effectively a 4 week delay. Where do the other two weeks go?
10:03 ogra             bugfixing ?
10:03 pitti            pure bug fixing
10:03 ogra             testing
10:03 Keybuk           an extra two weeks of Beta test reports
10:04 sivang           hardware support bug fixing
10:04 mjg59_           Keybuk: Ok. With no string changes or UI changes?
10:04 pitti            preferably not
10:04 sladen           two weeks -> insert an extra week between each of the last two freezes?
10:04 Keybuk           hmm, that's an interesting point
10:04 atie_            mjg59, do you have a list of goals for localization and how many days needed for
                       them?
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10:04 Keybuk           the String and DocString freezes could be placed after Beta
10:04 mjg59_           atie_: I don't, no - not really my field, I'm afraid
10:05 sivang           sladen: you mean between FF and the UI ones?
10:05 Surak            what are the tradeoffs of postponing the string freeze?
10:05 ogra             atie_, #ubuntu-i10n (sprint people) might know (but they might be offline by now)
10:05 mjg59_           Keybuk: I think we should aim to have the same amount of time between string freeze
                       and final release as we do now
10:05 atie_            mjg59, localization maybe factor for schedule, isn't it?
10:05 Keybuk           mjg59_: I agree with you
10:05 Keybuk           what about UI-freeze?
10:06 mjg59_           Keybuk: That is, string freeze should be 6 weeks before final release
10:06 sladen           I was thinking between RC and FR.  But actually I think that time should be used
                       earlier so that it can actually be /used/ and not spent sitting around waiting
10:06 Keybuk           should that be T-5 weeks or B-1 week?
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10:06 mjg59_           Keybuk: I think it should be independent of the beta. The length of time is more
                       needed for translation time, right?
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10:06 mjg59_           Shame Jono isn't here. It would be nice to have his opinion on that.
10:07 ogra             but mako was earlier
10:07 Keybuk           right
10:07 Burgwork         is this something I can answer?
10:07 ogra             Burgwork, do you work with them on the book ?
10:07 Burgwork         yes
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10:07 ogra             so give an opinion :)
10:07 mjg59_           Ok. I propose string freeze to be April 27th.
10:08 mjg59_           Docstringfreeze should be the week after that.
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10:08 ogra             ++
10:08 mjg59_           Translation deadline two weeks after that.
10:08 mjg59_           And then release two weeks after that.
10:08 Keybuk           right
10:08 mjg59_           That is, keep those freezes the same distance away from the release as they are
                       currently scheduled to be.
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10:09 Keybuk           BetaRelease on April 20th?
10:09 mjg59_           Yes, I think making a beta release on April 20th would be good.
10:09 Seveas           it should not be called beta
10:09 Keybuk           April6th
10:09 Keybuk           13thBeta Freeze
10:09 Keybuk           20thBetaRelease, UserInterfaceFreeze
10:09 Keybuk           27thStringFreeze
10:09 Keybuk           May4thDocumentationStringFreeze
10:09 Keybuk           11th
10:09 robotgeek        translation of documentation can only begin after doc string freeze, how does it
                       exactly improve document translation?
10:09 Keybuk           18thNonLanguagePackTranslationDeadline, KernelFreeze
10:09 Keybuk           25thReleaseCandidate, LanguagePackTranslationDeadline
10:09 Keybuk           June1stFinalRelease
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10:09 Seveas           it should be a PR boost
10:09 mjg59_           Seveas: Naming is not our field.
10:09 ogra             Seveas, jdub will rename it properly
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10:09 Seveas           ogra, I'm scared....
10:09 Burgwork         the docteam wants to be mostly frozen for the beta, due to having great testing for
                       that release
10:09 ogra             :)
10:09 Keybuk           that gives us an extra 5 (not 4) weeks until Beta
10:10 Keybuk           and an extra week between Beta and Release
10:10 mjg59_           Ok. How many people do we have here from the doc team?
10:10 Burgwork         so I would keep the docteam string freeze the same as the beta
=== robotgeek is docteam
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10:11 mjg59_           robotgeek: How much extra time do you (and the translaters) realistically need?
10:11 Nafallo          should we really move the kernel freeze?
10:11 atie_            what if beta on April 20th not achieved for localization goals, do we postpone them
                       to dapper+1?
10:11 Keybuk           Nafallo: it makes sense for the kernel to be frozen relative to the release
10:11 Keybuk           not relative to now
10:11 robotgeek        mjg59_: i am quite new to the doc team, i am not sure about translation times. i
                       was hoping someone else could enlighten me on the issue
10:12 mjg59_           The kernel freeze is a hard freeze.
10:12 Burgwork         mjg59, we are well on track to meeting the current string freeze
10:12 mjg59_           Keeping it slushy for bug-fixing is sensible.
10:12 Burgwork         even without it being bumped back
10:12 mjg59_           Burgwork: Right. So currently we're proposing giving you an extra 4-5 weeks.
10:12 Keybuk           Burgwork: that assumes no new input from the localisation work
10:12 robotgeek        the only problem is with sutff changing in the UI
10:12 mjg59_           What could you do with that time?
10:12 Burgwork         cleanup more docs
10:13 robotgeek        mjg59_: probably not much. cleanup
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10:13 Keybuk           what about documentation for espresso?
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10:13 Burgwork         not yet in place
10:13 Burgwork         that is the last major piece we need
10:13 Keybuk           is that on track for the current string freeze?
10:13 ogra             mjg59_, renaming 6.04 to 6-06 in the docs :)
10:14 mjg59_           I think it would be helpful to have a proposal from the doc team on this
10:14 Surak            what about internationalization for espresso?
10:14 Keybuk           \o/  finally, my version numbering scheme (that I suggested back at the original
                       "version number decision" meeting) is being adopted
10:14 Keybuk           (ahem)
10:14 Burgwork         mjg59, you want specific information about where we should move the freeze to?
10:15 mjg59_           Burgwork: I think this is something that should be decided with more feedback from
                       the doc team
10:15 Keybuk           Burgwork: I'm trying to understand what the DocStringFreeze is nailed to
10:15 Keybuk           is it "four weeks before Release, because that's how long we need to do it"
10:15 mjg59_           If an earlier freeze helps translation, then that's good.
10:15 Burgwork         Keybuk, currently the beta freeze, to allow greater testing
10:15 Keybuk           or is it "never change Docs after Beta has released" ?
10:15 Keybuk           testing of what?
10:15 jjesse           and to allow translation
10:15 mjg59_           If a later freeze helps the quality of the docs, then that's also good.
10:15 robotgeek        Keybuk: i think it has more to do with the UI freeze, cause we have to change stuff
                       if you do
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10:16 Burgwork         testing to see if the docs are crack and looking for typos, etc.
10:16 jjesse           i'm not the best person, but i thought doc freeze occured after UI freeze to help
                       with translations and make sure there aren't major changes to the docs
10:16 sladen           Keybuk: that would leave us still in '''UserInterfaceFreeze''' ?
10:16 Burgwork         plus allow translation
10:16 jjesse           docs don't get uploaded into rosseta until doc freeze (correect me if i'm wrong
                       burgwork)
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10:17 Burgwork         afaik, that is correct, but I am not the best person to ask about that
10:17 Keybuk           Burgwork: DocStringFreeze to me suggests "no more documentation changes"
10:17 ogra             Keybuk, oh, yes, your list above had no new date for UI freeze
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10:17 Keybuk           ogra: does, april 20th
10:17 ogra             oh
10:17 ogra             sorry, i'm blind
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10:18 ogra             Keybuk, no text changes, but screenshots etc
10:18 Burgwork         we like to keep screenshots to the docteam freeze as well
10:18 Keybuk           right, given the changes in localisation and stuff, it makes a bit of sense to me
                       to actually freeze the UI/String/Docs *after* we've already released beta
10:18 robotgeek        jjesse: that is correct, no translation before DocStringFreeze
10:19 Keybuk           but still with a whole extra week to do the work before release
10:19 Burgwork         let me raise the idea on the doc mailing list
10:19 mjg59_           Keybuk: I think we should possibly get more feedback from the translators before
                       making a firm decision on this point
10:19 Burgwork         as jerome and matthew are the best people to ask about this
10:19 robotgeek        mjg59_: +1
10:20 mjg59_           Since there is a firm desire for higher quality docs, and that's going to include
                       the translations
10:20 ogra             i think we do a rough proposal only ...
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10:20 ogra             anyway ...
10:20 Keybuk           right, I agree with ogra; let's put it forward as a proposal for the TB/CC
                       super-meeting
10:20 Keybuk           and make sure the translators and docteam have weighed in
10:20 mjg59_           Ok. Let's go with that.
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10:21 sladen           is it worth budging the Release an extra day to fall at the start of the weekend
                       for mirror loading et al
10:21 Keybuk           there's a reason (that I've forgotten) that we do it on Thursday
10:22 ogra             someones b-day ?
10:22 atie_            most GNOME 2.14 application translations can be uploaded to rosetta independently I
                       think.
10:22 ogra             :)
10:23 Keybuk           https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule/Slewed
10:23 Keybuk           (thanks sladen)
10:23 Keybuk           so that's our proposal for a 6-week-delayed schedule
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10:23 mjg59_           Any violent objections?
10:24 sivang           seems sane
10:24 ogra             since its a proposal only ...
10:24 enyc             The weeknumbers on that schedule dont make sense ;-)
10:24 PierPP           y
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10:24 Keybuk           enyc: "week numbers" ?  the dates should all be a Thursday
10:25 sladen           enyc: any better?  29->33
10:25 enyc             sladen: much better ;-)
10:25 ogra             heh
10:25 PierPP           sweet
10:25 Keybuk           ah, heh
10:25 mjg59_           Ok. Anything else to do?
10:25 Keybuk           Any other business from the floor?
10:25 ogra             doesnt look like
10:26 enyc             That.. would mean that 6.04 _would_ be there.. as a beta release!
10:26 enyc             and 6.05 would be the final
10:26 enyc             hrrm
10:26 Keybuk           6-06 as final
10:26 enyc             well you can't please everybody _whatever_ you do!
10:26 ogra             nope, 6-06
10:26 enyc             oh yes
10:26 enyc             ;-)
10:26 Keybuk           ok, in that case
10:26 Keybuk           meeting ajourned
10:26 Keybuk           thanks everybody
10:26 ogra             yay
10:26 Keybuk           the next formal meeting will be in two weeks time (28th)

MeetingLogs/Technical_2006-03-14 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:35:44 by localhost)