{{{ 10:00 mdz agenda is very lightweight, especially if lifeless doesn't turn up === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:00 freeflying mdz: hi === sivang checks the agenda 10:01 mdz freeflying: hi 10:01 mdz mjg59 said that he would not be able to make it 10:01 mdz sabdfl doesn't seem to be around either, so just me and Keybuk tonight 10:02 Keybuk "the terrible twosome" === sivang lols 10:02 freeflying mdz: I'm in ture of apply for dev 10:02 mdz freeflying: pardon? 10:02 freeflying mdz: zpply for ubuntu-developer membership 10:03 freeflying s/zpply/apply 10:03 mdz freeflying: what is your launchpad username? I don't see you on the list 10:03 freeflying mdz: zhengpeng-hou 10:03 mdz oh, you applied a long time ago apparently 10:04 mdz is this the first meeting you've been able to attend since January? 10:04 Keybuk mdz: uh, did someone move "Proposed Members" === Keybuk doesn't see it 10:04 mdz Keybuk: there aren't any for core 10:04 Keybuk mdz: ah! 10:04 mdz it's there on ubuntu-dev 10:04 freeflying mdz: this is the second 10:05 mdz hmm, I think you applied during the meeting where I wasn't here 10:05 mdz what was the outcome? 10:05 Keybuk mdz: we asked him to work more closely with the other scim maintainers and the other MOTU 10:05 Keybuk as well as increase his usage of Malone 10:05 freeflying mdz: was rejected one month ago , due to the low karma value 10:06 Keybuk s/rejected/deferred/ 10:06 Keybuk but yes 10:06 mdz freeflying: is there still difficulty between you and minghua? 10:06 freeflying mdz: i don't think we have 10:07 mdz dholbach: any feedback from MOTU about freeflying's involvement since? 10:07 mvo mdz: I worked with him on various CJK related issues (input methods, fonts) and he is very active 10:07 dholbach mdz: i can't say I worked much with freeflying - I think he was more involved with mvo and the KDE guys 10:07 mdz mvo: have you sponsored packages or patches for him? 10:07 mvo I sponsored some of his patches 10:08 mdz freeflying: who have you been working with primarily? 10:08 freeflying mdz: Riddell 10:08 mdz Riddell: around? 10:09 Riddell hi 10:09 mdz Riddell: have you sponsored packages for freeflying? any feedback? 10:09 Riddell freeflying's packages have been getting steddily better and for scim-bridge which I think was the last I reviewed I just had to correct the English on the description 10:10 mdz freeflying: I must say that cooperation is very important in our teams; I'm concerned about the fact that there was such a heated conflict over scim in the past 10:10 mvo I sponsored the initial scim-bridge upload and was happy with the quality 10:11 mdz freeflying: if you were in the same position again, what might you do differently? 10:12 freeflying mdz: we had disagreement before on scim === sabdfl [n=mark@ubuntu/member/pdpc.silver.sabdfl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:12 freeflying mdz: but that don't mean I will not cooperate 10:12 sabdfl ello there 10:12 ogra hey sabdfl 10:12 sabdfl sorry to be late 10:12 sabdfl where are we? === mvo waves to sabdfl 10:12 sabdfl hey michael 10:13 ogra sabdfl, first ubuntu-dev wannabe 10:13 ogra (freeflying) 10:13 mdz sabdfl: see paste in /msg 10:13 mdz freeflying: if you had such a disagreement today, what might you do differently? 10:14 freeflying mdz: now we haven't any disagreeement === j_ack [n=nico@p508D9043.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:14 freeflying mdz: you know scim is in main now , and is the default for cjk users 10:14 sabdfl freeflying: i saw some of the correspondence that flew around, and it struck me that you were very confrontational in your approach 10:15 sabdfl the other correspondent was bein cautious and reasonable 10:15 sabdfl i like your energy, and your willingness to learn and contribute === cbx33 [n=pete@84-45-238-195.no-dns-yet.enta.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:15 mdz freeflying: perhaps my question was unclear. if you had a different disagreement, perhaps with someone else, would you handle the situation in the same way? or would you do something differently? === crimsun [i=crimsun@pdpc/supporter/silver/crimsun] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:15 sabdfl but i'm a bit concerned about your approach to dealing with folks who are more cautious or who see things differently 10:15 freeflying mdz: I'd talk with him 10:16 sabdfl glad to hear Riddell and others are impressed with the improving quality of your work 10:16 freeflying sabdfl: thx 10:17 mdz Keybuk: his earlier deferral was in part based on your concerns; do you have any questions? 10:18 Keybuk I'm glad he's taken up my advice to work more with Launchpad and Malone, so I'm happy with his improvement there 10:18 Keybuk But I still don't think he's shown improvement in how he deals with others, especially minghua === lbm [n=lbm@x1-6-00-13-10-7a-d1-e4.k233.webspeed.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:18 Keybuk freeflying: have you spoken to minghua since the last meeting? worked out your differences? 10:19 freeflying Keybuk: we have talked something about improve the support for scim 10:19 mdz freeflying: according to Launchpad, you've signed the code of conduct, however, I do not feel that your earlier exchange regarding scim honored the CoC 10:20 mdz freeflying: however, you have made substantial code contributions which we appreciate, and I would like to recognize your continued involvement 10:20 sabdfl freeflying: we don't want to beat up on you for a past approach which you've now gotten over 10:20 sabdfl i recognise that you're on a steep learning curve, and doing very well 10:20 sabdfl but this interpersonal approach is very, very important in ubuntu 10:21 freeflying sabdfl: I see , I just appreciate this , so Iinvolved in ubuntu community 10:22 sabdfl ok 10:22 Riddell I didn't see much of the scim disagreement, but freeflying has always been very couteous and good to work with on #kubuntu-devel 10:22 Keybuk I think for me, he's shown enough of an improvement in his developer skills to join the ubuntu-dev team; and that by joining the team he'll improve his communication 10:22 Keybuk he's certainly shown great willingless to improve 10:22 sabdfl freeflying: do we have your commitment to think carefully before you flame someone with whom you disagree? 10:22 mvo I have a good working relationship with him too === mvo didn't knew about the scim disagrement 10:23 Riddell seems he and others in the Chinese ubuntu community were quite upset about the fridge story that was posted today, but freeflying was very good at explaining his concerns 10:23 sabdfl mvo: it was more a disagreement on the maturity of the code, and as it happens, freeflying's approach of "lets just get it in" won the day 10:24 sabdfl fridge story? 10:24 freeflying sabdfl: I will not flame with any disagreement 10:24 sabdfl freeflying: ok, then +1 from me, and a big thank you for your contributions so far! 10:24 freeflying sabdfl: I think anything can be solved by commnuication 10:24 freeflying sabdfl: thanks 10:25 Riddell sabdfl: looks like it has been removed now 10:25 sabdfl hmm... sounds like i should know a bit about htat 10:25 mdz +1, but with a strong urging to remember the CoC and resolve disagreements amicably, avoiding personal conflict 10:25 sabdfl anyhow, keybuk? mdz? === wold [n=wold@ev-217-129-81-225.netvisao.pt] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:26 Keybuk +1 from me 10:26 freeflying mdz: thanks , and I will 10:26 mdz freeflying: if you find yourself in a difficult position, feel free to peaceably escalate the issue to the tech board or community council; we're here to help 10:26 freeflying Keybuk: thanks 10:26 freeflying mdz: ya 10:26 mdz freeflying: welcome to the team 10:27 mvo congrats freeflying! 10:27 ogra congrats freeflying 10:27 freeflying thansk mvo Riddell sabdfl mdz Keybuk 10:27 dholbach congratulations freeflying 10:27 freeflying ogra: thanks 10:27 freeflying dholbach: thx 10:27 mdz is there anyone else here applying for ubuntu-dev? 10:27 mdz I pinged lifeless earlier, but he doesn't seem to be around 10:28 sabdfl freeflying: what's your launchpad nick? 10:28 mdz sabdfl: https://launchpad.net/people/zhengpeng-hou 10:28 LaserJock congrats freeflying 10:28 mdz (I updated LP already) 10:28 cbx33 congratulations freeflying 10:28 sabdfl ah 10:28 sabdfl thanks mdz :-) 10:28 mdz not hearing from any other ubuntu-dev applicants, sladen has the first discussion item 10:28 freeflying cbx33: thx 10:28 sabdfl lifeless is hopefully fast asleep right now 10:28 sabdfl or writing tests 10:28 mdz sladen: after seeing the agenda item, I commented on the bug with my feelings on the matter 10:29 Keybuk sabdfl: I thought he did that in his sleep 10:29 mdz https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-meta/+bug/36838/+index 10:29 Ubugtu Malone bug 36838 in ubuntu-meta ubuntu-minimal "ubuntu-minimal/Server does not depend on acpi-support" [Normal,Rejected] 10:29 Keybuk first up 10:29 Keybuk obvious problem 10:29 Keybuk even if we wanted to, we can't change ubuntu-minimal right now 10:29 Keybuk unless kamion has overcome that bug === olemke [n=olemke@p5489461B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:30 mdz we shouldn't change it at this point in the release cycle anyway, but we can answer the question of what it is meant to be 10:30 Keybuk why doesn't ubuntu-minimal provide acpi-support? 10:30 Keybuk seems logical to me for that to be there 10:31 mdz we do say that minimal is meant to provide hardware support, but I see power management as a special case 10:31 mdz especially in the context of servers 10:31 Keybuk true, most servers don't tend to need hibernation 10:32 mdz and they usually don't want powernowd or the like etiher 10:32 sabdfl do they not cycle down into "slow and power saving" mode? 10:32 mdz and they definitely don't want to automatically power down 10:32 Keybuk mdz: unless the power goes out? 10:32 sabdfl i thought heat generation was the #1 issue in data centers right now? 10:32 sabdfl do Xeon's support speed steppings? 10:32 mdz sabdfl: I think the #1 issue continues to be $ per unit of work done 10:33 elmo mdz: not really 10:33 sabdfl mdz: where some not insignificant chunk of $ goes to air conditioning 10:33 elmo sabdfl is right 10:33 sabdfl QUOTES PAGE 10:33 elmo most vendors are incorporating speedstep stuff into their server line 10:33 elmo precisely because of heat/power issues 10:33 sivang sabdfl: IBM's pServers do that :) === llolp [n=mark@80-42-155-192.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 10:34 sivang (move into low workload state with less power consumption and low heat) 10:34 mdz elmo: my point is that that is only one part of the larger equation 10:34 mdz and fwiw, acpi-support has nothing to do with frequency scaling afaik 10:34 sabdfl that's powernowd etc. 10:35 sabdfl do we install the frequency scaling stuff in desktops by default? 10:35 mdz it's mostly infrastructure for suspend and hibernate 10:35 mdz sabdfl: yes, since warty or so 10:35 sabdfl and is it a low-level, daemon like thing that could also go on ubuntu server? 10:35 mdz yes 10:35 sabdfl can it cause problems with hardware that doesn't implement specs correctly? 10:35 mdz I believe all of its dependencies are already in -minimal 10:35 mdz unknown 10:36 mdz note that it's near impossible to exclude packages from it 10:36 mdz if the package does trigger a problem, the user is in trouble 10:36 mdz but I don't know of any such issues with cpufreq 10:36 sabdfl too late for us to get meaningful feedback pre-dapper 10:36 mdz agreed 10:36 sladen mdz: ta. yup, I closed it after that 10:37 mdz on the larger question of which bits of power management infrastructure might be appropriate for servers, I think we should revisit that post-Dapper 10:37 mdz and I think it would mean an ubuntu-server metapackage rather than expanding -minimal 10:38 ogra ++ 10:38 cbx33 sounds like a good idea to me 10:38 mdz sladen: you're satisfied with the specific answer to your question, though, right? 10:38 sladen mdz: yeah. I rather have somebody else decide the policy :) 10:38 mdz I've added the server power management question to my post-dapper list 10:39 mdz next agenda item is from janimo 10:39 janimo there are a handful of packages I'd very much like to get into xubuntu. They are gtk-only builds of regular gnome apps. But the gtk only support is either not (yet) upstream, or not taken advantage of in debian packaging 10:39 janimo having them separately packaged conflicts with ReducingDuplication 10:39 mdz janimo: is it possible to merge your changes into the existing packages, so that they build an alternative set of binaries? 10:39 mdz so one source package, 2xN binary packages 10:39 janimo mdz, yes that would be ideal 10:40 mdz reducing-duplication is only concerned with source 10:40 janimo but since most (all?) of thsoe use CDBS 10:40 janimo packaging either needs to be very much tweaked 10:40 janimo or cdbs1 hacked into supporting multibuild 10:40 janimo the former need agreement of respective mainatiners 10:40 janimo the latter I am not sure how feasible it is 10:41 mdz have you talked with the desktop team about this? they know cdbs quite well 10:41 janimo mdz, have not yet. === sladen had a similar issue when wanting to build -i386-win32 binaries for qemu. ideally those would be in the archive too, but I guess the important thing is just argumenting the source-package to always produce two binary packages. 10:41 mdz perhaps they will have some ideas about how it can be done non-intrusively 10:41 janimo ok I'll talk to them 10:41 mdz but understand that we are very much in feature freeze now 10:42 mdz and if these changes are to receive an exception, they will need to be done with minimal interference with the existing, working packages 10:42 janimo mdz, sure. But packaging changes while ugly , should not affect the outcome of the gnome packages at all 10:42 sabdfl janimo: good work on xubuntu btw 10:42 janimo sabdfl: thanks 10:42 sabdfl i have it running on a machine here, and am testing it on low-end hardware 10:42 sabdfl very impressive 10:42 sabdfl very clean, very fast 10:43 janimo sabdfl: great, if you have any suggestions, -> malone :) 10:43 mdz janimo: which applications do you want to do this with? do you have a list? 10:43 janimo evince, gnome-system-tools, gnumeric, cups-manager 10:43 sabdfl janimo: and -> blueprint ;-) 10:43 mdz gnome-system-tools without gnome? ;-) 10:43 janimo gnumeric maintainer said he's accept patches in debian, but is slow to respond 10:44 janimo mdz, you'd be surprised to see how little gnome code is in there === sivang seconds janimo 10:44 janimo nautilus share and a few gconf bits 10:44 ogra yeah, they originally were the ximian-system-tools 10:44 janimo I actually have xubuntu-system-tools in universe now 10:44 sabdfl janimo: if you're willing to handle merges from debian, go ahead and update the ubuntu package 10:44 mdz janimo: do you have a patch for gnumeric? I don't think it uses cdbs 10:44 janimo works the same as the original 10:44 janimo mdz, gnumeric actually has --disable-gnome in upstream 10:45 janimo as it runs on win 10:45 janimo and we (Gauvain Pocentek an dmyself) have worked on the pacthes for gnimeric and libgoffice 10:45 mdz janimo: but in debian and ubuntu, it's built for gnome 10:45 janimo right 10:45 janimo but we have pacthes to buold both of them 10:45 janimo and yes this is debhelper so it's closer to the goal 10:46 mdz perhaps the ideal solution would be to maintain a xubuntu branch of those packages with different packaging, but we don't yet have the infrastructure to support that 10:47 mdz janimo: as sabdfl said, we can certainly trial the patches in Ubuntu if the risk is minimal (build failures are very disruptive close to release, though) 10:47 janimo mdz, sure. I just want to know (preferably from each maintainer) which way to go 10:47 seb128 please don't fork totally the packaging away from Debian 10:47 janimo convert to debhelper? 10:47 seb128 that's going to mean extra work to merge, etc 10:47 seb128 like cdbs to debhelper 10:47 janimo seb128: you are involved with most of these packages I think 10:48 mdz seb128: agreed 10:48 janimo what do you prefer 10:48 seb128 yeah, and as already discussed I'm not happy to fork the packages like that 10:48 janimo I put this on agenda to find a way we are all happy with 10:48 seb128 if we switch from cdbs to debhelper the package is totally different from the Debian one and it means extra work for dholbach and me updating them, syncing with Debian, etc 10:49 janimo seb128, could be a temporary switch fro dapper, hoping for dapper+1 either cdbs improves or something else saves us 10:49 seb128 grumpf 10:49 janimo either way I said I'd help maintain all packages I'd have to tweak 10:49 mdz janimo: it's especially important late in the release cycle that we stay agile 10:49 ogra thats a bad idea for a 3 year support cycle 10:49 mdz so that if we need last-minute fixes we can merge them quickly 10:49 janimo I am comfortable with any solution you propose as long as these packages can go into default xubnutu 10:50 seb128 I'm not happy to redo totally those package to use debhelper now 10:50 seb128 one week before dapper beta 10:50 mdz it's truly not a good time to add something like this to dapper 10:50 janimo seb128: I don't like debhelper much either 10:50 mdz we can consider an exception, but only if it can be done very simply and safely 10:50 janimo I;ll continue looking into cdbs multibuild then 10:50 mdz which in the cdbs case, it sounds like it cannot 10:50 sabdfl agreed, refactoring the packages totally now is not worth it 10:51 janimo Kamion proposed a workaround will have to try it. 10:51 mdz what was his proposal? 10:51 janimo not sure about the details, have to look it up 10:51 janimo said it on irc 10:51 mdz ok, I'm happy to review it via email 10:51 janimo something using a rules file which calls existing one and a new one 10:52 janimo so debhelper is not an option for packages using cdbs right? 10:52 janimo I am ok with that 10:52 mdz janimo: I don't think that would be best 10:52 mdz janimo: unfortunately we don't have a perfect solution at this point, but we can continue to discuss alternatives 10:52 janimo if we cannot get clean packaging to do this, how bad is having different source packages 10:52 ogra and it would likely upset debian maintainers again# 10:53 ogra twice the work if you have a security patch 10:53 mdz janimo: sorry we don't have a magic bullet to offer, but are you satisfied enough with the discussion to take the remainder to email? 10:53 janimo sure 10:53 mdz thanks 10:53 mdz is there any other business? 10:53 janimo ubuntu-devel ? 10:54 mdz janimo: sure, but CC me or bring it to my attention or I may not see it there 10:54 mdz ubuntu-devel is very noisy these days 10:54 janimo ok 10:55 mdz last call for other business 10:55 mdz ok, adjourned 10:55 mdz thanks, everyone }}}