== Log ==
tz UTC+1
{{{
10:00	mdz	cjwatson,kylem,doko,rtg,tkamppeer: ping
10:00	Keybuk	mvo: ping
10:00	kylem	yo
10:00	rtg	lurking attentively.
10:00	dholbach	mdz: doko_ might be a little late too
10:00	Keybuk	(one might consider the futility of pinging someone who isn't online :p)
10:00	mdz	dholbach mentioned mvo might be late
10:00	pitti	Keybuk: summoning powers
10:01	cjwatson	here
10:01	cjwatson	doko said to me he would be late due to travelling, yes
10:01	mdz	cjwatson: and till?
10:01	tkamppeter	I am here
10:01	mdz	ok, that's everyone then
10:02	cjwatson	Ben also said he might be a little late due to needing to rescue his wife from traffic
10:02	mvo	hello, sorry for being late
10:02	mdz	cjwatson: BenC connected a few minutes ago
10:02	cjwatson	er, no, that's rescue his kids from the bus stop due to wife stuck in traffic - something coherent anyway :)
10:02	cjwatson	aha
10:02	BenC	I'm on, I just have to get the kids in a few minutes :)
10:03	mdz	any additions to the agenda since the reports came in?
10:03	bdmurray	I wanted to talk about n-m and /etc/network/interfaces
10:03	cjwatson	BenC: oh, I forgot about BST and misunderstood the times you gave
10:03	bdmurray	and upgrading from edgy to feisty
10:03	tkamppeter	Yes, I am searching volunteers for HPLIP 1.7.3 testing
10:03	mdz	bdmurray: is there a bug number for that?
10:04	mdz	bdmurray: please add to the wiki
10:04	bdmurray	mdz: newz2000 had a bug about it and I've seen others I believe
10:04	fabbione	bdmurray: ++
10:04	mdz	bdmurray: can you add tkamppeter's item as well?
10:05	mdz	ok
10:05	mdz	(pitti) "Report a bug" menu item -> disable for release?
10:05	pitti	my two questions are mainly directed towards the desktop team and cjwatson, since they have by far the most bug reports, I guess
10:05	seb128	I think we should stop the crash handler and let the menu item
10:05	cjwatson	pitti: I don't have a problem
10:05	dholbach	I'm personally happy with the menu item - we get useful information through it.
10:06	cjwatson	(as far as my own bugs are concerned)
10:06	mdz	I just posted something about this to the list a minute ago
10:06	pitti	My feeling is that we should stop reporting signal crashes, and maybe keep Python crashes
10:06	cjwatson	I'd much, much, much rather get apport bugs than "er, it crashed, I can't install Ubuntu, help"
10:06	pitti	dholbach: with the per-app one, or the general one in the System menu?
10:06	asac	personally i like to keep crash reports for firefox
10:06	seb128	pitti: you will make mvo cry, he gets lot of python dups
10:06	BFTD	agreed
10:06	pitti	cjwatson: right, that was my gut feeling too; but for the installer they seem to be more relevant to me than, let's say, gnome 2.18 crashes
10:06	dholbach	pitti: both
10:07	mvo	I have mixed feeling, its great to get backtrace, but I'm afraid about the flood
10:07	seb128	we will get flooded
10:07	pitti	for example, we get a lot of bugs without a package through the System menu
10:07	mdz	we estimate there are millions of Ubuntu users
10:07	seb128	GNOME bugzilla got over 500 dups on some bugs from bug-buddy and 90% were Ubuntu bugs
10:07	pitti	and we have to consider how many crashes we realistically fix in stables
10:07	cjwatson	I'll certainly get flooded, *but* I'm going to get flooded *anyway* if the installer is crashing
10:07	iwj	Can we make apport only work for certain apps, easily ?
10:07	mdz	if we have a crash which affects 1% of them, and 1% of those report it, that's hundreds of bugs
10:08	seb128	there were getting over 1000 edgy crashes a week
10:08	cjwatson	it's either get flooded with decent-quality bugs, or with poor-quality bugs
10:08	pitti	iwj: theoretically yes, but hard to decide; I'd prefer classes like sigsegv vs. python
10:08	seb128	cjwatson: well, crashes are special
10:08	seb128	cjwatson: if nautilus crash once a day due to a bug we will get hundred of people sending it
10:08	mdz	I think that leaving it enabled for crashes would be fine, if we could avoid filing duplicates for the same crash
10:08	pitti	seb128: how many apport and normal bugs do you get for edgy, roughly?
10:09	mdz	the existing guided filing doesn't seem to do a good enough job
10:09	pitti	keeping in mind that edgy's apport was much harder to use
10:09	Keybuk	mdz: "me too" is planned, but not implemented
10:09	seb128	pitti: hard to tell, most bugs we get now are already feisty
10:09	Keybuk	(I wouldn't hold out hope of seeing anything like that pre-1.0)
10:09	seb128	pitti: I would say 100 a week some time ago
10:09	iwj	"me too" would be really nice.  It would help with the false duplicates, too.
10:09	pitti	right, Malone needs to become much more insistive with identical subjects, etc.
10:09	pitti	but I don't bet on it for feisty
10:09	mdz	Keybuk: I think that's a different problem
10:10	seb128	we have no dup finding easy capability atm
10:10	cjwatson	pitti: of course, it will help even if it gets implemented after Feisty
10:10	seb128	malone search don't look in comments nor attachments
10:10	asac	if we really cannot deal with crash flood we should disable imo and set high priority to get a crash database for next stable release
10:10	cjwatson	changes in Malone, that is
10:10	bdmurray	mdz: I added the n-m thing but don't know about the till item
10:10	mdz	people who are filing duplicates are probably doing it because they either don't see the existing bug, or don't know that the right thing to do at that point is just stop
10:10	mdz	bdmurray: <tkamppeter> Yes, I am searching volunteers for HPLIP 1.7.3 testing
10:10	tkamppeter	See bug 98520
ubotu	Malone bug 98520 in hplip "Feisty UVF ER: New HPLIP 1.7.3 release fixes lots of bugs" [Medium,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/98520
10:10	pitti	right, for feisty+1 we might have a more efficient retracer, automatic retracing, and automatic dup detection; we have none of them ATM
10:10	seb128	to be honest I prefer people filling duplicates
10:11	mdz	seb128: really? why?
10:11	tkamppeter	This is an UVF ER for HPLIP 1.7.3, as it fixes tons of bugs
10:11	seb128	on gaim we get people attaching their crashes to some random people pretty often
10:11	seb128	dunno why
10:11	bdmurray	mdz: done
10:11	seb128	but we have lot of bugs with 10 differents crashes attached there
10:11	cjwatson	seb128: agreed
10:11	seb128	because people came saying "I've the same bug, here is my crash"
10:11	mvo	seb128: yes, I get quite a lot of those as well
10:11	mdz	tkamppeter: ok, it is on the list and we can discuss it later in the agenda
10:11	pitti	seb128: NB that people won't manually attach apport reports any more
10:11	cjwatson	I have made the same comment many times in the past
10:12	tkamppeter	As we are shortly before release we need intensive testing on this.
10:12	seb128	I keep replying "when you don't know what you are doing open a new bug and let busquad direct you"
10:12	cjwatson	tkamppeter: later in the agenda, please
10:12	pitti	seb128: that was a specific problem of edgy's 'please attach me' apport, wasn't it?
10:12	tkamppeter	sorry, I thought mdz was calling me.
10:12	seb128	pitti: dunno
10:12	mdz	pitti: I think so
10:13	seb128	pitti: but I prefer people to open a dup than trying to figure themself if that's a dup
10:13	pitti	seb128: right, the goal is that Malone figures out whether it is a dup
10:13	seb128	they get it wrong often and that's really confusing
10:13	bdmurray	bughelper could help in the meantime with dupe detection right?
10:13	asac	seb128: ack ... i want every crash report in its own bug ... then retrace and mark dupes afterwards.
10:13	mdz	my feeling is that bug reports are not something that every user should deal with.
10:13	dholbach	if people submitted their clue files :)
10:13	bdmurray	dholbach: indeed
10:14	BFTD	can we have fontforge a requiarment to install WINE?
10:14	mdz	only users who are closer to the community and will participate in analysis should file bugs, generally
10:14	pitti	mdz: mpt had a strong point about the general 'I filed a bug, and noone answered' picture
10:14	iwj	I think I'm with mdz here.
10:14	seb128	bughelper is not good at dupfinding atm
10:14	pitti	therefore I agree with mdz
10:14	mdz	BFTD: the meeting agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070329, we're on item 3
10:14	mvo	does bughelper scale well enough for this task?
10:14	BFTD	mdz sorry
10:14	dholbach	mvo: no
10:14	seb128	you can't look for a sequence of functions
10:14	seb128	mvo: no
10:14	iwj	People who don't have the effort/knowledge/connection to get involved should perhaps be using the support system.
10:14	seb128	looking for a string is no enough
10:15	mdz	if only a relatively small portion of users should file bugs, we shouldn't point every user to the bug tracker
10:15	cjwatson	(bughelper can be improved post-feisty)
10:15	mdz	we do want the crash reports, but until we have a better place to put them than Malone...
10:15	seb128	right
10:15	pitti	mdz: I don't even thing that Malone is a bad place for it; we just need better tools to deal with them
10:15	fernando	hey all
10:15	asac	yeah ... imo keep crashes out of BTS ... so disable until we have crash db
10:16	seb128	pitti: it's bad, too much noise
10:16	seb128	we should have a crash collector and something making easy to move confirmed crashes to a bug
10:16	asac	pitti: i think its a bad place as well
10:16	cjwatson	from the disagreement in the team, I think we may need some kind of per-package solution
10:16	seb128	so we don't even have to bother looking what to dup
10:16	pitti	and I think that in this cycle we were able to fix a lot of bugs in feisty with the current system; we should continue to do so in feisty+1 for feisty+1 instead of trying to fix crashes in stables
10:16	cjwatson	perhaps implemented something like the existing hooks mechanism
10:17	iwj	I don't know what the density of real crasher bugs in gnome is but I get a nonzero number of dpkg crash reports which are basically "my hardware is bust".
10:17	BFTD	or give the user the option to install/use the reporter in the installtion
10:17	seb128	the best for GNOME would be to turn on bug-buddy
10:17	pitti	seb128: ok; we have that spec already, so we need to talk about it again at UDS
10:17	Keybuk	iwj: that'd surprise me, since we'd get them for everything
10:17	seb128	but backtraces are screwed on feisty, we can't send bugs upstream
10:17	Keybuk	are you sure that they're not just deep dpkg bugs? :p
10:17	cjwatson	Keybuk: we do get them for ubiquity ...
10:17	heno	can we allow users to turn on apport manually if they see a recurring bug? that way we could ask for it from users we know will follow up etc. or ask it iof someone who has already filed
10:17	iwj	I investigate them and it turns out the machine had toasted filesystems.
10:17	Keybuk	I've never had them for upstart ;)
10:17	mdz	seb128: why would bug-buddy be better?
10:18	pitti	heno: yes, that's easy
10:18	cjwatson	but that's ok, I have Tollef's greasemonkey script to help me reject them in about five seconds
10:18	Keybuk	(I've never actually had a crash report at all for it)
10:18	pitti	heno: well, it would be with flipping /etc/default/apport
10:18	seb128	mdz: because bugzilla.gnome has more bug triager, they have a decent dup finder, they are used to it, and 98% of crashes are due to upstream
10:18	heno	pitti: so perhaps that should be our policy?
10:18	iwj	They're not common but then dpkg is not the biggest memory hog out there.  I just wonder how many other crashes there are that are due to slightly-dodgy machines.
10:18	pitti	so if we ask an user to switch that on, we can still get selected reports for feisty
10:19	mvo	iwj: I have seen quite a few in apt (well, some are real I suppose :)
10:19	heno	pitti: you mean selected in a good way or bad way (skewed sample)?
10:19	iwj	mvo: *snort*
10:19	pitti	heno: in a way to get quantities we can cope with, together with a commitment from the reporter to give feedback
10:19	mdz	heno: it would be great if we could find a way to turn it on only for responsive users
10:20	doko_	joining
10:20	iwj	`To qualify for this service, you must be at least >  < this competent.'
10:20	mdz	we want to be able to use it to assist bug reports which would otherwise take more time to process, without getting reports which are useless
10:20	heno	if we make it easy (which pitti says it is) we could request it in bug comments regularly
10:20	pitti	iwj: it could check your LP karma :)
10:20	heno	better than 'please upload /var/log/...
10:21	heno	well, if someone has already filed a bug without the system asking them too they are more involved than the average user
10:22	mdz	heno: right
10:23	mdz	hmm
10:24	pitti	hm, so am I right that the opinions lead towards keeping Python (for ubiquity & friends) and disabling signal crashes by default, with the possibility of enabling it again in /etc/default/apport?
10:24	mdz	pitti: I assume we can have it store the crash file, but not notify the user to submit it?
10:24	pitti	asac: you had two slightly different statements; what do you think about the firefox front?
10:24	mdz	pitti: if so, when a user files a bug, we could give them a command to run to submit the crash to the bug, right?
10:24	asac	i am unsure ... on the one hand I want to get feedback so i see if there are regressions for some users
10:24	heno	(I support turning it most off too -- have no opinion about python or other categories)
10:24	pitti	mdz: yes; that would require minor code changes, but no problem
10:25	asac	especially since we upload new upstream reports
10:25	mdz	pitti: that seems like the best of both worlds where crashes are concerned
10:25	cjwatson	pitti: we could also make it behave differently on the live CD
10:25	asac	otoh dealing with that flood of crashes is hard in malone
10:25	cjwatson	(by tweaking stuff in casper)
10:25	mdz	pitti: we wouldn't get the pre-filled summary...
10:25	cjwatson	for installer crashes I see no value in giving the user a command versus the notification icon
10:26	mdz	cjwatson: argeed
10:26	mdz	agreed
10:26	pitti	mdz: oh, I thought you meant something like 'run apport-gtk by hand' to collect and report pending stuff in /var/crash
10:26	mdz	I think the installer is a special case, though
10:26	mdz	because the crash reports are lost
10:26	cjwatson	it is, but I need it to be addressed :)
10:26	cjwatson	sorry to keep banging on about it
10:26	pitti	so we would mainly turn off the auto-spawning in update-notifier
10:26	mdz	cjwatson: do you want crash reports to remain on for the installer?
10:26	cjwatson	mdz: yes
10:26	mdz	cjwatson: I don't think anyone here would object to you receiving more reports on ubiquity if you want them
10:26	cjwatson	:-)
10:26	pitti	Python crash reports are really neat
10:26	mdz	let's put that to rest, then, shall we?
10:27	pitti	cheap in terms of bandwidth, and easily dup'able
10:27	mdz	crash reports for ubiquity in 7.04 - thumbs up
10:27	pitti	*idea*
10:27	seb128	well, there is the same flood with them
10:27	cjwatson	the remaining question is whether that be done for all python scripts, or just for the live CD
10:27	pitti	what about simply adding an option to update-notifier?
10:27	mdz	seb128: but it's an isolated flood for colin, and he wants it
10:27	mvo	pitti: a gconf key? easy enough
10:27	pitti	turn that off by default, and provide a moderately hidden switch to turn it on again?
10:27	seb128	mdz: I was speaking about python crashes in general, not only ubiquity
10:27	seb128	I think ubiquity is ok
10:27	mdz	seb128: ok
10:28	cjwatson	hence my suggestion of doing it in a package hook or similar
10:28	seb128	I've looked at all the unconfirmed apport bug in malone last week
10:28	seb128	and we have hundred of them already
10:28	cjwatson	look, we seem to be going round in circles, and we're 28 minutes in
10:28	pitti	cjwatson: casper could flip that gconf key for the live session, too
10:28	seb128	and a good bunch of them were python crashes
10:28	cjwatson	can we all agree to thrash this out on ubuntu-devel? :-)
10:28	seb128	ok
10:28	pitti	ACTION: pitti to summarize discussion in #u-devel and continue there
10:28	janimo	pitti: the python backtraces for system-config-printer were all very helpful FWIW
10:28	asac	maybe we can move things to mailing list instead of irc?
10:28	seb128	all the crash files are really useful
10:28	mdz	I think we should briefly discuss the menu item in the meeting, since that's a separate issue
10:29	pitti	so we covered my second TOP now
10:29	cjwatson	pitti: erm - mailing list rather than IRC?
10:29	cjwatson	or maybe IRC would work, dunno
10:29	pitti	cjwatson: erm, of course
10:29	seb128	the thing is that after some time you get the sames crash again and again and not a lot of new
10:29	seb128	and the noise increase
10:30	mdz	crash reports -> ubuntu-devel@
10:30	pitti	bdmurray: I take it you get a lot of bug reports without a package through the System 'report a bug' menu?
10:30	mdz	menu item -> here
10:30	mdz	bdmurray: yes, tell us about what you see as a result of that menu item
10:30	bdmurray	pitti: I'm not sure what would be the give away that it was from that menu item?
10:30	mdz	bdmurray: it should include a footer
10:30	pitti	bdmurray: the apport info in them
10:30	pitti	about Ubuntu version, uname, etc.
10:31	pitti	of course the user can select a package in malone, but many of them don't
10:31	pitti	and mpt raised the point that getting tons of unanswered bugs neither helps the reporters nor us
10:31	bdmurray	I haven't counted that much but don't think there are a lot and the Ubuntu version is helpful because people do forget that a lot.
10:31	mdz	especially since it's called "report a problem"
10:31	mdz	and users have many problems which aren't bugs
10:32	mdz	including problems which have nothing to do with Ubuntu
10:32	mdz	bear in mind that OEMs will preinstall Ubuntu in mass quantities
10:32	mdz	users who get Ubuntu and don't even know what it is could end up reporting this as a "problem" with their computer
10:33	pitti	I for myself get more and more 'unqualified' reports now, without any answer in many cases
10:33	pitti	the menu item in the application's help menu (lp-i) might be better, it already has the package and such, and more likely to get a proper description
10:34	seb128	right
10:34	mdz	pitti: and it can call package hooks
10:34	pitti	right
10:34	mdz	I propose that we disable the item in the System menu
10:35	bdmurray	and it is slightly more obscured too
10:35	mdz	does anyone feel that we'd be losing out on better bug reports by doing that?
10:35	bdmurray	so people would have to be looking for help
10:35	pitti	we should rather improve the Firefox start page or help center and have them point to wiki, etc.
10:35	pitti	and the more community-oriented people will find Launchpad just as well as they did so far
10:36	cjwatson	that would be a pretty small change to the Firefox start page, I think, and that's something OEMs can and probably (without proof) do customise
10:36	cjwatson	I'm with mdz here
10:36	seb128	mdz: the problem is that only a small set of app are patched for lpi
10:36	pitti	right, you cannot use it to report a postgres bug, but *shrug*
10:37	seb128	maybe moving the panel one to applications, accessories?
10:37	asac	btw, the firefox startpage does not ship in firefox package
10:37	seb128	or system, admin ;)
10:37	pitti	seb128: you hit me when I did that :)
10:37	mdz	seb128: are you getting useful bug reports from it?
10:37	cjwatson	asac: indeed, ubuntu-artwork et al
10:37	dholbach	ubuntu-docs
10:38	pitti	anyway, any strong opposition to the current proposal?
10:38	seb128	mdz: no, but the apps I'm working on are using lpi
10:38	mdz	seb128: we do have ubuntu-bug now, though it needs to be more widely advertised
10:38	seb128	fair enough
10:38	pitti	we even have a command-line apport frontend for servers now ;)
10:39	mdz	consensus to disable System->Report a problem, then?
10:39	seb128	I think having the command line command and lpi is good enough
10:39	mdz	pitti: oh, neat
10:39	seb128	+1
10:39	asac	+1
10:39	Mithrandir	mdz: yes, I think that makes sense.
10:39	pitti	+1
10:39	mdz	ok
10:39	bdmurray	mdz: I'm running a bughelper query for those bugs and a lot are showing up.  Ones report by that menu item that is.
10:39	kwwii	yippee! that fixes my one bu for me
10:39	pitti	ACTION: pitti to disable system apport menu entry
10:39	mdz	as I wrote on the mailing list, we should revisit it when we have better infrastructure in place for guiding the user, and handling the reports on the server side
10:40	bdmurray	but it would me more useful if they had an application in them rather than going "nowhere" per se
10:40	pitti	sorry for the long discussion, but I felt it is important to collect info
=== dholbach hugs pitti
10:40	mdz	pitti: can you add this to the agenda for apport refinements at UDS?
10:40	pitti	mdz: definitively
10:40	mdz	(bdmurray) What is the best / most effective way to communicate bugs I think might be important? e-mailing the distro team?
10:40	mdz	pitti: thanks
=== cjwatson proposed milestoning for things we need to look at before release
10:41	pitti	mdz: 'that' -> bdmyrray's last comment, I take it?
10:41	cjwatson	we can always unmilestone if need be
10:41	Mithrandir	bdmurray: milestone + assign.
10:41	mdz	pitti: no, my last comment (and the corresponding post to -devel)
10:42	mdz	pitti: a discussion about generally how the user should report bugs, when, which tools, etc.
10:42	pitti	right
10:42	mdz	bdmurray: I see this as a release management function
10:42	pitti	bdmurray: more email--; bug assignment + IRC pings work fine for me, personally
10:43	bdmurray	IRC can be challenging with the time difference though
10:43	mdz	bdmurray: so if you feel a bug is important enough to be tracked separately, it should be escalated to Mithrandir
10:43	Mithrandir	bdmurray: we should ship you to Europe.
10:43	iwj	irc pings aren't always very reliable.
10:43	mvo	bdmurray: I like milestone + subscribe
10:43	bdmurray	indeed
10:43	pitti	bdmurray: but we already have bug email for the asynchronous discussions
10:43	Mithrandir	iwj: for others, it's much more reliable than anything else.
10:43	iwj	Mithrandir: That's scary to me.
10:44	cjwatson	the problem with IRC pings for anything that needs attention urgently is that if the problem is actually urgent then they can be quite disruptive
10:44	cjwatson	you need to stop what you're doing in case you forget
10:44	seb128	I like IRC pings
10:44	Mithrandir	iwj: why?  it feels like I'm subscribed to half of the packages in the archive; there's no way I'll never miss a thing there.  Pings show up in my session.
10:45	seb128	I set the milestone, bug settings, etc as required and switch back to what I was doing usually
10:45	iwj	Maybe your network/client/stuff is more reliable.  I find I occasionally miss them.
10:45	seb128	it's not too disruptive and I know about the bug then
10:45	seb128	iwj: well, if the other side doesn't reply I consider he didn't read it and try again later ;)
10:45	Keybuk	heh, I have to agree with IRC here
10:45	pitti	bdmurray: I think we recently got better bug mail headers, so that it should be possible to separate out the subscriptions from other people from the mass of bug mail from +packagebugs
10:45	Mithrandir	cjwatson: so it depends on the person.  I don't develop very much software any more, I spend a fair amount of my time talking to people on IRC doing release management.
10:45	Keybuk	I just about don't read bug mail anymore
10:45	iwj	seb128: Ah, IC.  That makes much more sense now :-).
10:45	Keybuk	since it takes longer to read it than it takes for more to arrive
10:45	mdz	seb128: are you needing a standard method which works for the entire team, or are you asking what to do with bugs where you don't already know who to talk to and how?
10:45	cjwatson	Keybuk++
10:46	Keybuk	I've been unsubscribing from things as much as I can, but haven't yet got it down to a level I can actually *keep up* with
10:46	Keybuk	(so if you've subscribed/assigned a bug to me ... I don't actually know about it yet <g>)
10:46	pitti	mdz: that was meant for bdmurray, I take it
=== Keybuk is somewhere in February right now, and that's even after heavy purging
10:46	mdz	pitti: er, yes
10:46	mdz	bdmurray: ^^ s/seb128/bdmurray/
10:46	Mithrandir	Keybuk: the fun starts when teams are subscribed to bugs, and they should be so you can't just unsub them.
10:46	bdmurray	mdz: more the latter
10:46	Keybuk	Mithrandir: this is part of my problem
10:47	mdz	ok, so let's not discuss personal preferences then
10:47	bdmurray	for example bug 95821 seems pretty important
ubotu	Malone bug 95821 in mysql-dfsg-5.0 "Replication failure with auto-increment and on duplicate key update" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/95821
10:47	mdz	the question is what to do about orphan bugs
10:47	bdmurray	but I have no idea where to go with it
10:47	iwj	I think we may need to hurry this along a bit ?
10:47	mdz	I've suggested that they go to the release team
10:47	pitti	bdmurray: that sounds like upstream is the single appropriate target
10:47	cjwatson	if there's nobody obvious to go to, then set the milestone and the RM can figure it out :-)
10:48	Mithrandir	bdmurray: as the rest of the people here says; if you're unsure, milestone it.  unmilestoning is easy.
10:48	mdz	Mithrandir: does that seem sensible to you?
10:48	seb128	milestone them and encourage people to look at the milestoned bug every now and then?
10:48	mdz	seb128: Mithrandir will do that regularly
10:48	seb128	or let RM find the people ;)
10:48	seb128	ok, works for me
10:48	bdmurray	sounds good
10:48	Mithrandir	I have said it before and I'll probably say it again: Please milestone bugs which you believe or think may be RC.  If you're unsure, ask me, or milestone anyway.
10:48	mdz	Mithrandir: maybe the QA docs should say something about this if they don't already
10:49	mdz	(bdmurray) bug 63365 and bug 76901
ubotu	Malone bug 63365 in xorg "[feisty]  xorg incorrectly detects "lv3:ralt_switch" option in xorg.conf (dup-of: 76901)" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/63365
ubotu	Malone bug 76901 in console-setup "right Alt key not recognized by default (lv3:ralt_switch shouldn't be set by default for US keyboard layouts)" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/76901
10:49	Mithrandir	mdz: I don't know if they do; I'll make sure they do.
10:49	bdmurray	mdz: that's not so important more just a reminder
10:49	Mithrandir	ACTION: tfheen to make sure QA/bug triage information includes information about when to milestone.
10:49	iwj	bdmurray: Err, so it doesn't need discussion here ?
10:49	cjwatson	indeed, the first is a dup of the second and the second is milestoned
10:49	bdmurray	iwj: no not really my mistake
10:50	cjwatson	no discussion here needed I think unless there's anything further on it
10:50	iwj	Fair enough.
10:50	Mithrandir	malone's handling of duplicates is slightly icky, but that's mostly my problem.
10:50	mdz	the right alt key on US keyboards is labeled "Alt" and should be equivalent to the left Alt key
10:50	iwj	I like quick agenda items.
10:50	mdz	it's assigned to cjwatson
10:50	mdz	done
10:50	mdz	(bdmurray) network-manager and /etc/network/interfaces when upgrading from edgy to feisty for example bug 96521
ubotu	Malone bug 96521 in network-manager "network manager won't let me connect to wifi" [Undecided,Rejected]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/96521
10:50	mdz	bdmurray: is this the same issue that SteveA brought up?
10:51	bdmurray	mdz: I'm not sure I saw thought.  But I believe n-m wasn't the default in Edgy. So people may have stuff configured in /etc/network/interfaces that confuses n-m.
10:51	mdz	SteveA pointed to https://beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/87941
10:51	bdmurray	after upgrading
ubotu	Malone bug 87941 in network-manager "network-manager does not take into account static configurations *properly* (dup-of: 82335)" [High,Confirmed]
ubotu	Malone bug 82335 in network-manager "network-manager should not set offline mode when it manages no device" [High,Fix released]
10:51	Mithrandir	bdmurray: s/confuses/makes NM ignore the interface/, yes.
10:51	mdz	I guess that's a different issue
10:52	fabbione	and n-m breaks ipv6
10:52	bdmurray	and does the upgrade process take this into account at all?
10:52	iwj	Is there something controversial here ?  (Still loading bugs pages over gprs ...)
10:52	mdz	bdmurray: I think we need to take this to ubuntu-devel
10:52	Mithrandir	fabbione: that's something I don't really worry or care about release-wise.
10:53	fabbione	Mithrandir: it's a regression from edgy so you do care..
10:53	Mithrandir	fabbione: no, I don't.  Just don't use NM if you're one of the ten people in the world using IPv6.
10:53	mdz	bdmurray: I think the short answer is that the UI should make it obvious when NM is ignoring the interface due to manual configuration, and allow the user to get quick access to the checkbox to set it back to automatic
10:53	fabbione	Mithrandir: i can't remove NM without removing ubuntu-desktop..
10:53	bdmurray	mdz: why is that? I'm trying to understand what is appropriate for the distro-team vs ubuntu-devel
10:54	Mithrandir	fabbione: you can disable it.
10:54	Mithrandir	mdz: yes, I'm going to tweak NM to do that.
10:54	cjwatson	bdmurray: distro-team => private
10:54	mdz	bdmurray: distro-team = Canonical, ubuntu-devel = Ubuntu developers
10:54	fabbione	Mithrandir: last time i asked you how to, you told me you couldn't..
10:54	Keybuk	Mithrandir: 10 is on the generous side
10:54	Mithrandir	fabbione: rm /etc/dbus/event.d/25NetworkManager
10:54	mdz	bdmurray: it's not that it's inappropriate for this meeting, it's that we only have 5 minutes left and can't discuss it in that time
10:54	bdmurray	mdz: okay, that's fair
10:55	Mithrandir	bdmurray: I'll be happy to discuss it further with you, I don't think it's important for the whole team?
10:55	mdz	ACTION: bdmurray to summarize network-manager/ifupdown issues on ubuntu-devel for further discussion
10:55	mdz	(cjwatson) Bug day on Friday: distro team participation
10:55	cjwatson	just a reminder to everyone, since last Friday was beta day
10:56	cjwatson	it's not actually been announced on u-d-a apparently - dholbach?
10:56	mdz	cjwatson: reminder to what?  join #ubuntu-bugs?
10:56	dholbach	I thought it was... bdmurray?
10:56	cjwatson	but anyway, distro team staff should make an effort to turn up on #ubuntu-bugs and be a bit more vocal about what you're doing to stimulate discussion and educate people
10:56	cjwatson	and generally help out
10:57	cjwatson	done
10:57	mdz	the community QA team seems to be growing and healthy
10:57	iwj	I could volunteer our poor tender bug helpers to help with bug 75681.
ubotu	Malone bug 75681 in mdadm "boot-time race condition initializing md" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/75681
10:57	iwj	(ducks)
10:57	mdz	I'm seeing good actions from new members
10:57	mdz	iwj: talking about problems like that during bug days will increase awareness of the problems and how to debug them
10:57	mdz	ok
10:57	cjwatson	iwj: you could certainly talk them through your thought processes trying to debug it, although they might run away :)
10:57	dholbach	cjwatson: apparently it was not announced, I'll whip something up
10:57	mdz	(tkamppeter) I am searching volunteers for HPLIP 1.7.3 testing
10:57	iwj	cjwatson: :-)
10:58	mdz	tkamppeter: my OfficeJet is in a shipping crate somewhere between here and London
10:58	tkamppeter	See bug 98520
ubotu	Malone bug 98520 in hplip "Feisty UVF ER: New HPLIP 1.7.3 release fixes lots of bugs" [Medium,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/98520
10:58	Keybuk	my LaserJet doesn't appear to work with HPLIP
10:58	bdmurray	I have one here I can test
10:58	tkamppeter	HPLIP 1.7.3 has many fixes to bugs reported to us.
10:59	bdmurray	in my spare time
10:59	tkamppeter	As we are shortly before releasing, we need test reports from as many people as possible.
10:59	mdz	tkamppeter: send mail to ubuntu-devel-discuss
10:59	mdz	that's where you can reach people who are running feisty
10:59	doko	tkamppeter: 1.7.3 works for me, scanning included
10:59	mdz	adventurous sorts
10:59	mdz	Mithrandir: beta blockers?
10:59	mdz	(last week's actions)
10:59	tkamppeter	So please do the tests described in my 2nd and 3rd posting and post your results to the bug report.
10:59	cjwatson	if that's not done, it's irrelevant :P
10:59	mdz	bdmurray: wiki documentation cleanup?
11:00	Mithrandir	mdz: too many, but going down, slowly.  I have utterly forgot to send out the list, so I'll do that tomorrow.
11:00	cjwatson	unless s/beta/release/
11:00	tkamppeter	Thanks for your help.
11:00	mdz	cjwatson: yes, we still have blockers :-)
11:00	bdmurray	mdz: I slipped on that but am working on it actively now
11:00	mdz	ok
11:00	mdz	Mithrandir: please send that out tomorrow
11:00	mdz	any other VERY BRIEF business?
11:00	Mithrandir	mdz: will do.
11:01	mdz	adjourned
11:01	mdz	thanks, all
}}}