== Log ==
TZ UTC+1
{{{
10:59	mdz	cjwatson,Keybuk: is everyone here who's expected?
11:00	heno	here
11:00	Riddell	hi
11:00	asac	i am here ... in case i am expected ;)
11:00	kwwii	hi
11:00	iwj	Hello everyone ...
11:00	mvo	hello
11:01	doko	seems to be a slow start today =)
11:01	cjwatson	BenC said he wanted to be here, but he may have keeled over with exhaustion
11:01	Keybuk	mdz: yes
11:01	fabbione	it's also 3/4am there
11:01	cjwatson	everyone else is here
11:01	cjwatson	fabbione: he was aware of that
11:02	mdz	fabbione: 5, but wasn't expecting him at this meeting
11:02	pitti	I saw him an hour ago
11:02	mdz	BenC: good morning
11:02	fabbione	here he is
11:02	cjwatson	00:47 <BenC> would this meeting be opportune time to discuss the kernel upload?
11:02	cjwatson	00:47 <cjwatson> I certainly won't hold it against you if you aren't there, as long as I have all the information needed to represent kernel interests
11:02	cjwatson	00:47 <cjwatson> yes
11:02	cjwatson	00:47 <BenC> then I'll make it
11:02	cjwatson	aha
11:02	BenC	good morning
11:02	mdz	so, welcome everyone.  thanks for being available even though this was a bit last-minute
11:03	mdz	the release is creeping up on us, and I think we're a little bit behind where we ought to be right now, so it seemed wise to get everyone together to go over the outstanding issues
11:03	mdz	Keybuk and Mithrandir have been reviewing our progress
11:04	mdz	Keybuk: would you give an overview of where we stand?
11:04	Keybuk	Current status is that the release candidate images prepared yesterday had several problems with them
11:04	Keybuk	notably things like the "About Ubuntu" menu option being missing
11:04	pitti	#105593 :(
11:04	Keybuk	and /etc/lsb, /etc/issue, etc. all being wrong
11:05	pitti	^ is the worst one I found
11:05	seb128	about ubuntu, launchpad integration have been fixed yesterday
11:05	seb128	bug #105593
11:05	Mithrandir	seb128: and accepted into the archive this morning.
11:05	Keybuk	we also haven't performed several of the steps leading to the candidate, including hardware certification testing
11:05	seb128	Mithrandir: rock on
11:05	Keybuk	fabbione: I believe you've got that started now?
11:05	mdz	(incidentally, is anyone else having trouble with firefox stalling for a very long time at "Connecting to launchpad.net..."?)
ubotu	Malone bug 105593 in restricted-manager "claims that nvidia is in use on live system" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/105593
11:05	fabbione	Keybuk: yes already started. we got only one bug so far
11:05	Keybuk	mdz: yes, problem is at LP end
11:06	seb128	mdz: yeah, it's really really really slow since yesterday :/
11:06	fabbione	Keybuk: i think Marc has almost completed the first round
11:07	mdz	pitti: the lrm change fixes the immediate problem, right?
11:07	asac	mdz: what do you mean by stalled? like no redraw of ui ... or just waiting for server?
11:07	pitti	mdz: right, there are actually two problems
11:07	pitti	(1) r-m warns you about non-free drivers being in use, taints kernel, prone to raise political discussions
11:07	pitti	(2) as soon as an user actually enables nvidia, it is going to break their X because of ABI incompatibility (except if they have a very *very* new card which is not supported by nvidia-glx)
11:07	mdz	asac: I did some packet level debugging which I posted to the launchpad list; let's talk about it later
11:07	asac	mdz: k
11:08	pitti	mdz: thus we would break many X.orgs instead of showing off compiz&co for nvidia users :(
11:08	Mithrandir	pitti: but the lrm fix in the queue fixes this, right?
11:08	pitti	right
11:08	pitti	it's not built yet, though
11:09	Mithrandir	I'm driving the publisher by hand now
11:09	pitti	but I saw that the source is in the archive
11:09	pitti	'no builds recorded' instead of 'needs build', hmm
11:10	mdz	fabbione: is there any estimate of how long the cert tests will take
11:10	fabbione	mdz: Marc is working hard to catch up. he promised to be as fast as he can, but no numbers for an ETA
11:10	fabbione	mdz: i expect at least another day
11:10	pitti	so, we have the l-r-m problem, the hwdb notification, about ubuntu menu items, lsb; we can probably live with any single one of them, but all together look really bad IMHO
11:11	mdz	fabbione: I think it is irrelevant for now; either there will be no problems discovered and we can release, or there will be problems and we'll need to delay
11:12	fabbione	mdz: as i said.. one bug found so far in n-m already reported by other people. I will be able to tell you more in a few hours when Montreal wakes up
11:12	fabbione	mdz: i didn't know about the meeting till this morning, otherwise i would have gathered more info
11:12	seb128	pitti: hwdb and about ubuntu are supposed to be fixed now, no?
11:13	pitti	seb128: right, should be in the archive
11:13	mdz	fabbione: bug number?
11:13	Mithrandir	seb128: they are, if you run apt-get update.
11:13	seb128	Mithrandir: ok, just making sure because pitti listed them
11:13	Mithrandir	note however that ubuntu-docs still have "feisty fawn" in them in some places.
11:13	fabbione	mdz: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/105688
11:13	pitti	seb128: argh, no, hwdb-client is still the old one
11:13	Mithrandir	(with the version numbers, mind, so it's less bad)
ubotu	Malone bug 105688 in network-manager "NetworkManager applet shows No network connection when there is a network connection (dup-of: 105234)" [Undecided,Needs info]
11:13	ubotu	Malone bug 105234 in network-manager "Netowrk manager says disconnected but is connected and working" [Medium,Confirmed]
11:14	seb128	that's network-manager change is confusing a lot of users
11:14	seb128	that network-manager change
11:14	Mithrandir	seb128: but it's confusing them rather than leaving them with broken networks.
11:14	sladen	NM is teh rock.
11:14	pitti	seb128: red herring, drescher has the new hwdb-client, so that's fixed as well
11:14	ogra	sladen, the rock we all get buried under ?
11:15	seb128	Mithrandir: how hard would it be to display no icon when it's not used?
11:15	Mithrandir	seb128: probably doable.  I'll look into it.
11:15	seb128	would be great
11:15	ogra	seb128, it already does that if i shut down my WLAN (but keep the static iface up)
11:15	ogra	as soon as i load the bcm module again, its back
11:16	ogra	so juat abusing that function could probably work
11:16	cjwatson	Mithrandir: could the n-m bug be due to your most recent change?
11:17	Mithrandir	cjwatson: yes, and while the confusion isn't intentional, it is behaving correctly.
11:17	Mithrandir	so we need to address the confusion.
11:17	cjwatson	Mithrandir: is there an explanation in the bug of the confusion?
11:17	seb128	cjwatson: network-manager does the right thing, it says there is no network configured though
11:18	seb128	which means is not managing any
11:18	Mithrandir	what seb says.
11:18	seb128	but have an icon saying "no network configured" confuses users
11:18	cjwatson	the bug above only has confused comments from users, AFAICS
11:18	cjwatson	it needs an authoritative comment from somebody who understands what is going on
11:18	seb128	because there is a network configured and working
11:19	heno	I tested it with my father. He was slightly confused, but shrugged when the network worked anyway
11:20	Mithrandir	there seems to be a real bug related to the "disable networking" menu item, I need to investigate what's the problem there.
11:20	fabbione	wouldn't be possible to change the string to match reality?
11:20	fabbione	like: "hey dude.. i can't manage your setup. kthxbye"
11:20	Mithrandir	fabbione: it would break translations, but otherwise that's a possibility.
11:20	fabbione	we can always unbreak them with langpacks update
11:21	fabbione	it's probably the less intrusive change we can do
11:21	heno	yes, the string is more confusing than the icon
11:21	fabbione	dunno how many langs that string is translated, but i am pretty sure we can fix the major ones within the team
11:22	seb128	fabbione: what's wrong with hiding the icon when there is nothing to manage?
11:22	seb128	that doesn't break any string
11:22	heno	'Please replug your network cable' would work, because that 'fixes' it for the session :)
11:22	mdz	heno: how does that fix it?
11:22	pitti	seb128: but you'd lose the menu entry for static configuration or enabling wlan, etc.
11:22	fabbione	seb128: nothing.. you need to change code and possibly add other regressions
11:22	iwj	BenC: Is bug 99648 the same as bug 53268 ?
11:22	cjwatson	heno: sounds more specific than the problem in fact indicates?
11:22	mdz	this isn't the time to think about redesigning the UI
11:22	seb128	pitti: can you enable wlan when there is not connexion managed?
ubotu	Malone bug 99648 in linux-source-2.6.20 "MMC/SD memory card reader does not work" [High,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/99648
ubotu	Malone bug 53268 in hal "On Thinkpad X60s and Z60 SD card reader doesn't work" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/53268
11:23	heno	mdz: if you unplu and replug ethernet it behaves as expected until you reboot
11:23	pitti	seb128: if you disabled it before, then you'll be in that situation
11:23	mdz	it seems there is a genuine issue, but we ought not rush in a poorly thought out change
11:23	mdz	heno: why?  I thought in this situation, n-m was ignoring the interface
11:23	pitti	disabling wlan temporarily should not cause the icon to go away
11:23	heno	I think it ignores it bacause the network is brought up during boot, before n-m
11:24	heno	if you 'let n-m find it' it's happy
11:25	mdz	heno: but if it's already being managed by ifupdown, that would result in confusion (like two dhclients)
11:26	Mithrandir	mdz: except the fact that network-manager kills it as part of its startup.
11:27	Mithrandir	void nm_system_kill_all_dhcp_daemons (void)
11:27	Mithrandir	{ nm_spawn_process ("/usr/bin/killall -q dhclient");
11:27	Mithrandir	}
11:27	mdz	...
11:27	heno	Mithrandir: so when it does that it should also set a flag so it remembers to check for an active network later
11:27	mdz	what a piece of work
11:27	fabbione	Mithrandir: and it doesn't always work because sometime we spawn dhclient3
11:28	Keybuk	Mithrandir: isn't it dhclient3?
11:28	ogra	Mithrandir, could you call that nm_system_kill_all_dhcp_client ??
11:28	Mithrandir	fabbione: we can kill those too.
11:28	Mithrandir	ogra: no.
11:28	fabbione	Mithrandir: we should
11:28	ogra	Mithrandir, thats confusing :)
11:28	Mithrandir	ogra: I'm not going to change the name of NM-internal interfaces.
11:28	fabbione	ogra: no you can't. the nm backends export a standard API towards the rest
11:28	cjwatson	Mithrandir: n-m ubuntu5 was a further fix for the problem with people with manually configured interfaces having trouble with n-m claiming they were offline, yes?
11:29	Treenaks	what if n-m only manages one of several DHCP interfaces?
11:29	ogra	Mithrandir, oh, i thought it was a new function ... ignore me :)=
11:29	Mithrandir	cjwatson: it was a revert to the ubuntu3 behaviour, except we don't claim to be offline if there are disabled devices available.
11:30	cjwatson	Mithrandir: remind me, was there a bug about that?
11:30	Mithrandir	and then the applet is patched to check both the online/offline status and the number of devices managed.  If the number of managed devices is zero, it goes into "we are offline" mode.
11:30	Mithrandir	cjwatson: yes, it broke LTSP setups for instance.
11:30	Mithrandir	let me find the bug #
11:31	cjwatson	we should have a policy that late changes must have a bug# referenced in the changelog
11:31	ogra	cjwatson, it hogged static interfaces that are configured in /e/n/i and teared them down because NM allows only one iface to be up
11:31	Keybuk	Mithrandir: why do you kill dhclient, rather than invoke ifdown?
11:32	fabbione	Keybuk: that's what upstream does in all backends IIRC
11:32	fabbione	Keybuk: you don't want to call ifdown because the interface might be in use for nfs mounts
11:32	fabbione	Keybuk: just take over the dhcp process
11:32	Keybuk	redhat don't have something quite like our ifup though
11:32	Mithrandir	Keybuk: I believe that code is either from upstream or from you, I haven't written it.
11:32	Keybuk	since ifdown won't work for that interface after you kill its dhclient
11:32	Mithrandir	cjwatson: 100021
11:33	cjwatson	thanks
11:34	cjwatson	BenC: are you still awake?
11:37	fabbione	am i still connected?
11:37	seb128	fabbione: yes
11:37	fabbione	thanks
11:37	mvo	fabbione: no
11:41	Mithrandir	I could make it use the connected icon and change the tooltip if there are manual devices, would that be good enough?
11:41	ogra	sounds like
11:41	ogra	as long as it doesnt *always* show the connected icon then at least :)
11:42	Mithrandir	ogra: it'll always show it if you have manually configured devices.
11:42	heno	Mithrandir: by manual, do you mean eth0 or static IP?
11:42	ogra	thats fine
11:42	ogra	heno, static ip and auto in /e/n/i
11:42	heno	this problem occurs with dhcp too
11:43	heno	which is the most common for basic users
11:43	Mithrandir	heno: anything not managed by NM.
11:43	ogra	you mean if /e/n/i is empty ?
11:43	heno	ok, that will work then
11:43	ogra	then it shouldnt happen ...
11:44	cjwatson	so we have a possible proposal to skip release candidate and release Herd 6 instead
11:44	cjwatson	at this point, if we have to delay release candidate, there'll be very little time to squeeze in validation
11:45	mdz	we need to hear from Ben about these kernel bugs
11:45	mdz	the changes which are proposed are too intrusive for 7 days before release
11:45	cjwatson	so Herd 6 would be a much-less-validated set of images
11:45	mdz	so if the problems are truly showstoppers, then we are looking at a delay of the release
11:45	fabbione	what kind of delay we are talking about?
11:45	fabbione	one week? two weeks?
11:45	mdz	today was the first I had heard of these issues
11:45	mdz	fabbione: unknown
11:46	cjwatson	HPA has been on the table for some time and Ben has tested the patch on his array of non-HPA hardware
11:46	mdz	fabbione: this change is proposing to switch to an entirely different IDE driver for a huge proportion of Intel based systesm
11:46	mdz	(bug 96857)
11:46	cjwatson	the PIIX thing I think we should drop
ubotu	Malone bug 96857 in linux-source-2.6.20 "Feisty Beta: debian-installer does not mount cdrom" [High,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/96857
11:47	mdz	so we have:
11:48	mdz	kernel issues: we will have a talk with Ben when he wakes up and review those
11:48	mdz	network-manager: Keybuk is looking over the patches and doing some further analysis
11:48	mdz	what else is on the table?
11:48	fabbione	server installer issues: Keybuk is on it already. bug #105623
ubotu	Malone bug 105623 in devmapper "udev rules missing from udeb" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/105623
11:49	mdz	certification: we will await results, and have to decide on whether to delay if there are problems
11:49	mdz	(fabio tracking)
11:49	mdz	fabbione: this is a showstopper?
11:49	mvo	I would like to add additional sanity checking into the release upgrader for python, but that should not be controversal I hope?
11:49	fabbione	mdz: for RC no (would be enough a release note). For final yes
11:50	Mithrandir	fabbione: fwiw, it just worked fine for me.
11:50	mdz	fabbione: note that there is unlikely to be an RC unless we delay
11:50	fabbione	Mithrandir: it works.. it only takes ages to work.. so if you don't look at it and go back after a while you don't even notice
11:50	Mithrandir	fabbione: ok.
11:51	fabbione	Mithrandir: it's about waiting 3 minutes for each devmapper device to be created
11:51	mdz	mvo: for the CDs?
11:51	fabbione	mdz: yeah of course..
11:51	cjwatson	just adding those rules to the udeb stands a good chance of breaking the partitioner. I'd veto that.
11:51	cjwatson	(because it would bring LVs/whatever up by default which the partitioner isn't expecting)
11:51	mvo	mdz: having it on the CD is a bonus, but if its available online that should be fine
11:51	fabbione	cjwatson: they are the exact same rules that lands in the installed system
11:52	cjwatson	fabbione: the installed system is different in important ways
11:52	doko	mdz: bug 105642, bug 105828
11:52	cjwatson	release note and point release if we can get the change tested. It's annoying, but fixing it is very risky
ubotu	Malone bug 105642 in linux-source-2.6.20 "kernel panic starting edubuntu dvd in live mode with VGA" [High,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/105642
ubotu	Malone bug 105828 in Ubuntu "wrong keyboard layout after LTSP chroot install" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/105828
11:52	Mithrandir	while it's annoying, I don't think it's a showstopper either.
11:53	fabbione	cjwatson: i think Keybuk can tell you more about the status
11:53	mdz	doko: you are saying that these are showstopper bugs?
11:53	cjwatson	fabbione: I've already spoken with Scott about this.
11:53	fabbione	cjwatson: ok
11:53	cjwatson	keyboard layout> totally not release-critical. dpkg-reconfigure console-setup
11:53	ogra	mdz, i'm not yet sure 105828 is a valid one, i havent seen it in any installs here
11:53	doko	mdz: well, a kernel panic for the default install? IMO rc for the final; the edubuntu install not.
11:54	ogra	mdz, doko and i are still investigating
11:54	mdz	doko: I'm asking you; you just gave bug numbers without context
11:54	ogra	doko, the panic doesnt happen witjh the CD here
11:54	mdz	doko: a kernel panic under what circumstances?
11:54	ogra	mdz, framebuffer
11:54	ogra	it immediatley dies if it tries frambuffer stuff
11:55	ogra	i.e. directly after gfxboot
11:55	doko	mdz: 105642: insert the edubuntu amd64 dvd, let it boot alone.
11:55	ogra	it either is specific to dokos HW or to the DVD
11:55	ogra	i dont see it on two different machines with the CD
11:55	doko	ogra: I can recheck with another DVD, but not other hardware
11:56	Mithrandir	I can check it here once I finish downloading the edubuntu dvd
11:57	heno	I have the Edubuntu DVD, I'll check too
11:57	mdz	surely this is not specific to edubuntu
11:57	ogra	doko, i find it weird that you have so many bugs i dont see anywhere else ...
11:57	mdz	if it is, it's even less potentially serious
11:57	ogra	especially the keyboard thing i see no technical way how that could happen
11:58	mdz	it's easy enough to test, should not be hardware-specific
11:58	cjwatson	I'm burning an Ubuntu amd64 DVD now
11:59	ogra	mdz, still i'm missing a logical explanation how a setting in a chroot can influence a confiog file on the host system
11:59	cjwatson	ogra: it's not release-critical. please worry about it later
11:59	cjwatson	we do not have time to get into extensive research regarding non-release-critical problems
11:59	ogra	cjwatson, well ... having all edubuntu installs with US keyboard is something i'd see as RC
11:59	cjwatson	I disagree
12:00	cjwatson	you can reconfigure it trivially, and furthermore you already said it's not happening to you
12:00	ogra	80% of your users are non english
12:00	cjwatson	unless you feel that your testing is in some way inadequate?
12:00	ogra	not really ... it worked the last releases :)
12:01	cjwatson	I'm not dismissing doko's problem, but I do think that it is not something to delay release for
12:01	ogra	if i start seeing it too i'd consider it for edubuntu
12:02	ogra	but i dont (yet ?) so this discussion is pointless
12:03	mdz	ok, so we have a current direction for each of the outstanding issues I mentioned
12:03	mdz	last call for other issues we need to be aware of for release
12:04	pitti	bug 104602?
12:04	mdz	we are in a delicate state right now, and it's important to know how serious it is
12:04	ubotu	Malone bug 104602 in sysvinit "root password visible at emergency console" [Undecided,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/104602
12:04	pitti	can be fixed in a security update as well, though
12:04	fabbione	ah so i was not the only one
12:04	fabbione	that's also with upstart
12:05	pitti	it's an usplash bug really
12:05	Mithrandir	mdz: were you able to reproduce the NM resume from hibernate problem?
12:05	pitti	it's not a release blocker, but important IMHO
12:05	fabbione	mdz: there is a bug in multipath-tools but i already uploaded the fixed version. it's not worth more discussion here.
12:06	Keybuk	pitti: we don't set root passwords by default, and you have to be at the console anyway
12:06	kwwii	not a show stopper, but I was hoping to finish a usplash/CD install pic for Xubuntu
12:06	Keybuk	definitely not stopping the show ;)
12:06	mdz	pitti: definitely a serious issue which should be fixed
12:06	mdz	pitti: but I think it can be a security update
12:06	cjwatson	CD install images can go in very late, usplash less so
12:06	kwwii	is that still possible?
12:06	pitti	I agree, but you wanted to be aware of important issues, so I thought I'd mention it
12:06	mdz	pitti: thanks
12:07	kwwii	cjwatson: in any case, it should be done by tomorrow at the latest - if it is too late, so be it
12:08	mdz	if you don't have a release-critical task to work on, please join #ubuntu-bugs
12:08	mdz	and help keep an eye out for unexpected issues as they arise
12:09	mdz	if you discover something which looks serious, please talk to Colin, Scott or myself
12:09	mdz	there will be further communication about the kernel, certification and other outstanding issues as it is available
12:09	pitti	so, will we get new RC images?
12:09	fabbione	or Herd-6?
12:09	fabbione	what's the consensum now?
12:09	pitti	well, it's just a name
12:09	mdz	we will get new daily builds
12:09	mdz	it is unknown whether we will delay the release or not
12:10	mdz	and that will determine the plan for remaining milestones
12:10	cjwatson	I do not feel we should have a release candidate at this point
12:10	fabbione	pitti: well herd-6 will involve a new RC set
12:10	cjwatson	unless the release is delayed
12:10	mdz	there is no point doing a full validation test of an RC at this point when there are known blockers
12:10	cjwatson	pitti: herd-6 => not a complete round of validation
12:11	mdz	has everyone done at least one test of each of their assigned ISOs?
12:11	mdz	please confirm
=== fabbione did
12:11	pitti	confirm
12:11	mvo	yes
12:11	Riddell	yes
=== dholbach did too
12:11	pkl_	pkl: yes
12:11	asac	confirm
12:11	cjwatson	I will have done in about one minute when I reboot
12:11	mdz	heno: are you able to tell if any tests were outstanding?
12:11	Mithrandir	server, not the kubuntu amd64 dvd yet (since cdimage was excessively slow yesterday)
12:12	fabbione	mdz: https://www.stgraber.org/ubuntu/isotesting has  a pretty good overview
12:12	heno	mdz: https://www.stgraber.org/ubuntu/isotesting
12:12	pitti	https://www.stgraber.org/ubuntu/isotesting shows quite a number of (0)s
12:12	asac	oh wait ... not yet finished ... will finish later today
12:12	heno	netboot is undertested and DVDs
12:12	iwj	doko: Thanks for doing those dvd tests btw.
12:13	heno	and upgrades, I'm doing some of those now
12:13	iwj	Err, dholbach I mean.
12:13	iwj	Duh.
12:13	mdz	heno: please review with cjwatson and determine whether we need to push some specific cases
12:13	doko	iwj: they were assigned to me :)
12:13	dholbach	iwj: np
12:13	heno	right
12:13	mdz	ok, we've taken long enough with this meeting, let's reconvene later once we've filled in some of the unknowns
12:13	mdz	adjourned, thanks all
}}}