20070503
Log
05:01 asac so we do meet or not? 05:01 mdz I just got out of a meeting with soyuz folk 05:01 mdz I did not have the chance to copy activity summaries, but I did create https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070503 05:01 mdz and I do want to talk to everyone about UDS 05:02 mdz are we all here? === dholbach is 05:03 Mithrandir aye 05:03 cjwatson kenel I suspect the kernel team won't be, aside from pkl === Nafallo [n=nafallo@ubuntu/member/nafallo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 05:03 asac pitti will be here soon 05:03 cjwatson heno is travelling 05:04 seb128 meeting or not meeting? 05:04 fabbione meeting 05:04 asac +1 ;) 05:04 mdz Scott is also travelling, of course 05:05 mdz mvo,Riddell,Mithrandir: ping 05:05 dholbach mvo_: ^ 05:05 fabbione Mithrandir is here 05:06 bdmurray bryce is travelling atm I think 05:06 dholbach mvo_ will be here shortly 05:06 mdz bdmurray: oh? 05:06 cjwatson oh, yes, bryce is at the LGM 05:06 pitti hi, sorry for being late 05:06 bdmurray to Montreal? 05:07 seb128 mdz: he sent a mail on warthogs about travelling 3-4 and 4-5 05:07 mdz ah, right 05:08 mdz anyway, my only agenda item is to check in with everyone regarding their preparation for UDS 05:08 mdz a draft schedule is up at http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/uds-sevilla/ 05:08 mdz and workshops with no preparation done are outlined in red === mvo_ is here 05:08 mdz that outline disappears when an agenda is added to the XML for the schedule 05:09 seb128 cjwatson: "Apport cooperation with Gnome upstream" is planned on the 10th but fer and bkor (GNOME guys interested in that) are register until the 9th only 05:09 cjwatson yeah, I'd seen that in scrollback 05:09 seb128 k 05:09 mdz cjwatson: bryce's don't seem to be done 05:09 cjwatson give me a moment to see if it can be rearranged 05:09 pitti we can either move it, or just have that one be scheduled automatically and devote that slot to any other of the 5 apport specs 05:10 iwj Can I have a slot for the grub boot device identification problem ? 05:10 iwj slot> Plus participation from people with useful knowledge :-). 05:10 cjwatson mdz: of the ones that aren't follow-on from MtV, kyle was due to prepare background for X, a while back; I'll check on that when he next checks in 05:10 cjwatson iwj: can it be autoscheduled? 05:11 iwj cjwatson: I think I need kernel guys and perhaps someone like you with some installer knowledge. 05:11 cjwatson seb128: can you /msg me fer and bkor's real names? 05:11 pitti btw, we can have a free slot at Friday; Riddell and I quickly talked about it, we don't really need a session for Kubuntu restricted manager 05:11 iwj The alternative to a core scheduled item is a corridor bof I think. 05:12 pitti maybe we should just run through all them from the top 05:12 cjwatson iwj: my time is pretty tight, though evand may be able to help to some extent 05:13 iwj cjwatson: Mmm. 05:13 fabbione iwj: do you need a generic installer guy or ubiquity? 05:13 iwj Generic. 05:14 iwj It's for matching up devices between installation and booting. 05:14 iwj I mean, between BIOS and Linux, really. 05:14 cjwatson seb128,pitti: I'll try to arrange some kind of rescheduling of thatt one 05:14 cjwatson that 05:14 fabbione iwj: ok.. i might be able to help you there (installer side) 05:14 pitti cjwatson: encrypted file systems is currently lead by Keybuk; do you think you can take it? it's heavily installer dependent 05:14 mdz iwj: that sounds like it would be a good subject for a sprint with some upstream bootloader folks 05:15 iwj mdz: Err, I don't think it warrants a sprint. 05:15 cjwatson huh, bkor's LP ID is "bugzilla-ubuntu" 05:15 seb128 cjwatson: thanks 05:15 mdz iwj: then why are we discussing it? 05:15 iwj And I think the problem is as much a Linux problem (if not more so) than a bootloader problem. 05:15 pitti cjwatson: well, he works on Gnome bugzilla 05:15 cjwatson mdz: that would imply grub2; none of the relevant upstream folks care about grub any more 05:15 iwj I mean, it doesn't warrant a whole sprint. 05:15 iwj It ought to be discussed in person. Worth about a bof. 05:15 mdz cjwatson: I don't see a problem with that 05:15 seb128 cjwatson: weird, I'm not sure if he uses launchpad bug he's the bugzilla.gnome.org admin 05:16 cjwatson mdz: it's a pretty serious issue actually; there are a huge number of bugs relevant to it 05:16 seb128 s/bug/but 05:16 mvo_ iwj: is that essential about bug #8497 ? or something complettely different? Launchpad bug 8497 in grub "grub guessed BIOS disk order incorrectly" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/8497 05:16 iwj mvo_: That and the dozens of similar bugs, yes. 05:16 mdz cjwatson: if it's a serious issue which needs to be resolved, it's worth getting the stakeholders together and hashing it out properly 05:16 cjwatson and it could be tied into our UUID changes too in some ways 05:16 cjwatson mdz: the problem is that we have repeatedly rejected grub2 as not ready yet ... 05:17 iwj I've just looked at the grub2 code again. 05:17 iwj It's not ready yet. 05:17 iwj And it doesn't solve this problem anyway. 05:17 mdz cjwatson: we are not the only ones with this problem, and it's worth talking to the other people 05:17 mdz we've had this problem for years now 05:17 cjwatson I guess I agree, but it might help if we could agree internally what we wanted first! 05:18 mdz I guess I didn't realize there was a disagreement 05:18 iwj mdz: It's getting lots more severe, because our Linux device discovery is constantly getting generating less predictable orderings. 05:18 mdz what is the disagreement? 05:18 iwj SATA is doing it, particularly. 05:18 mdz iwj: what does that have to do with grub? 05:19 cjwatson mdz: not so much a disagreement as that we really have no clue what the desired final answer ought to look like, and I think it's going to take kernel experience as well as bootloader experience; how many people do you want to drag to a sprint about this one subject? 05:19 iwj The stuff that sets up grub needs to know BIOS disk numbers. These used to be predictable because Linux and the BIOS used to (mostly) detect stuff in the same predictable order. 05:19 iwj What cjwatson said. 05:19 mdz cjwatson: a sprint isn't a punishment, it's a chance to work on the problem 05:20 cjwatson mdz: I wasn't implying it was, but it's also expensive 05:20 iwj Can we please have a bof at UDS and then we'll see if we want a sprint or not ? 05:20 mdz and the fact that we need people with all of the relevant backgrounds is a good reason to plan it, rather than trying to squeeze it into UDS 05:20 iwj I think we will have most of the relevant knowledge at UDS, or at least a good chance of having. 05:21 cjwatson I would like to at least talk about it at UDS. Whether it's a hallway-track meeting or something else I don't really care. 05:21 cjwatson we could put it in the installer forum if you like 05:21 mdz how about adding a boot loader forum which iwj can host 05:21 cjwatson there's nothing much concrete scheduled for that yet 05:21 Mithrandir iwj: it's also the fact that it used to be a problem only with SCSI + IDE, while now it's a problem with PATA + SATA which is a lot more common. 05:21 iwj The key thing is kernel participation. The bootloader stuff is fiddly but less complex and I think I can probably cover it. 05:22 iwj Mithrandir: Right. And it used to be that if it did go wrong you could write some config to fix it, whereas now it changes every other boot. 05:22 Mithrandir iwj: yay hardware/BIOS races. 05:22 mdz iwj: if you want some time with the kernel team to talk through this, then I see no problem with it 05:23 mdz the entire kernel team will be there, and they will certainly have a spare hour 05:23 cjwatson I will schedule a forum session involving iwj + kernel team 05:23 mdz ok 05:23 iwj Unfortunately I don't have enough SATA disks here to do proper tests but Fabio will perhaps have some experience of BIOS disk order stability (or otherwise) with many-disk SATA setups. 05:23 iwj cjwatson: Thanks. 05:23 mdz iwj: has Keybuk talked to you about boot/login with no free disk space? 05:23 iwj mdz: Yes. 05:23 iwj I don't think it needs discussion. 05:23 cjwatson in general though we plan for it to be possible to autoschedule stuff and have that interact nicely with the core schedule 05:23 mdz iwj: that has a big chunk of background work which doesn't seem to have been done yet 05:23 cjwatson Keybuk says he has the code for that 05:23 fabbione iwj: i have no SATA.. only SAS (only sparc) and scsi 05:24 Mithrandir cjwatson: feel free to add me to that bof too. 05:24 mdz iwj: I don't think you know that until you've looked at it in more detail 05:24 iwj It just needs test, discover bug, fix bug or do workaround, rinse, repeat. 05:24 iwj fabbione: Hmm. 05:24 fabbione iwj: well plus IDE or PATA or whatever they are called now 05:24 iwj OK, I'll put out a mail on ubuntu-devel maybe asking for people to report their experiences. 05:24 mdz iwj: how about doing a comprehensive test, which is what I asked for? 05:25 mdz this is not a difficult problem to simulate 05:25 mdz and then if it turns out that there are upstream problems to be resolved, you'll know what questions to ask the GNOME folks at the summit 05:25 mdz for example 05:26 Mithrandir mdz: not entirely true, since you don't know what order the BIOS puts the drives in. Some BIOSes put the boot drive as 0x80, some just don't. But, it's better to discuss the problem in person. 05:26 cjwatson Mithrandir: err, I think we're talking about the disk space thing now 05:26 Mithrandir cjwatson: oh, point. 05:26 mdz Mithrandir: I have no idea what you're responding to 05:26 Mithrandir mea culpa 05:26 iwj mdz: Err, yes, but I don't think a test will tell us very much. 05:26 mdz iwj: "we'll figure it out as we go" is not a suitable project plan 05:27 mdz pitti,fabbione: is one of you looking into encrypted filesystems? 05:27 fabbione mdz: i did some basic research already at MV 05:27 iwj Can we have encrypted swap at least ? 05:28 pitti mdz: I made up my mind about cryptsetup, did some experiments, and thought about various possibilities to implement it 05:28 pitti I think I have a pretty good idea about the subject now and the pro/cons of different approaches 05:28 mdz pitti: ok, you should have enough background for an agenda 05:28 cjwatson iwj: it's (a) easy to test on a basic level and start incrementally fixing, (b) possible to write a shim that causes write() and similar to return ENOSPC 05:28 pitti iwj: that's the easiest thing 05:28 pitti mdz: right, in fact I already have an agenda here; I guess I just forgot to add it to the bzr 05:28 pitti will do 05:29 iwj cjwatson: Right. 05:29 iwj I've been playing with subterfugue for other reasons and that might well be a starting point for such a shim ... 05:30 mdz pitti: ok, gerat 05:30 mdz great 05:30 mdz Riddell: do you know what needs to be discussed at the Kubuntu/KDE-related sessions? 05:31 Riddell mdz: some things yes, but I don't have a two hour agenda for the "Kubuntu gutsy plan" slot 05:31 Riddell it may well we have plenty to talk about for two hours, I just don't know 05:31 Riddell mdz: I did e-mail agenda items to keybuk when he asked a while ago, but they don't seem to be added to any of the items 05:31 cjwatson mdz: can I take you off apport-gnome-cooperation if necessary to resolve scheduling contention? 05:31 mdz Riddell: the agendas don't need to fill the entire time slot, just provide starting points for the discussion 05:31 cjwatson I still need to go through the stuff Scott forwarded from various people :-/ 05:32 mdz Riddell: ok, if you've sent them to Scott then he'll commit them 05:32 mdz ...or punt them to colin 05:32 Riddell mdz: is "Kubuntu gutsy plan" expected to end with a spec? 05:32 mdz Riddell: I cannot say; I did not define it. didn't the Kubuntu topics come from you? 05:33 mdz it's marked as a workshop, which would mean yes, it should result in a spec 05:33 Riddell mdz: yes, but that one was "kde 4 plan" and has now been generalised into "kubuntu gusty plan" 05:33 mdz and from the title, it sounds like it should have some output, namely a plan 05:34 mdz Riddell: I'm not picky about the name 05:34 mdz if you want it to be specifically kde 4, that's fine with me 05:35 mdz or you can split it into a workshop on kde 4, and a forum to brainstorm other interesting things to do in Kubuntu 05:35 cjwatson apport-gnome-cooperation moved to Tuesday 05:35 pitti splendid 05:36 cjwatson last thing Tuesday in the otherwise free slot, but you can't have everything === pitti adds agenda for encrypted file systems 05:36 mdz cjwatson: I've started assembling slides for the introduction, and I don't expect to have 90 minutes of talking to do 05:36 mdz so we can potentially free up some space on sunday 05:37 cjwatson we're not under *quite* that much pressure yet, but it may come 05:37 cjwatson we could make how-was-feisty-for-you longer 05:37 cjwatson it strikes me that there will probably be plenty of material in there 05:38 mdz that could become a big brainstorming session 05:38 mdz or we could do a demo 05:39 cjwatson we already have lots of demo slots 05:39 cjwatson later in the week, which I think is better really 05:39 mdz I want to re-emphasize that we need more people devoted to the mobile effort 05:40 mdz this is perhaps the single most important part of the summit, to get this sorted 05:40 fabbione mdz: i added my self to the mobile schedule are you requested 05:40 mdz fabbione: yes, thank you 05:40 mdz there will be about 5-8 folks coming just to work on that 05:41 mdz I'll be sending out an announcement about it soon 05:42 mdz are there any questions about UDS? 05:42 mdz this will be the first one for some of you 05:43 Riddell will there be phone conferencing like at MTV? 05:43 mdz if it's your first summit, it would behoove you to get a briefing on how it works 05:43 pitti mdz: how do we handle subscription to dynamically scheduled specs? 05:43 mdz Riddell: I have been told that there will be something similar, yes 05:43 mdz pitti: just subscribe in launchpad as usual 05:43 pitti mdz: greedy subscription again, or just ad-hoc on the evening for the next day? 05:44 mdz pitti: I don't understand the question 05:44 pkl_ mdz: where can I get any briefings. as it's my first summit? I was planning on picking everthing up when I got ther. 05:45 pitti mdz: nevermind, if it didn't change, then my question is already answered 05:45 pitti I overheard something about not subscribing to half a thousand specs this time to ease scheduling or so 05:45 cjwatson mdz: I'm shortening the intro bits on Sunday and (for now) spreading out how-was-feisty over the break, but it might be best to turn that into two different things 05:45 fabbione pkl_: get there saturday. offer beer to other developers .. developers will happily talk about the process. WIN 05:45 mdz pkl_: talk to your line manager if you don't have a mentor to talk to already 05:46 cjwatson pkl_: I can give you a call shortly after the meeting and we can go over it 05:46 pkl_ I was going to question BenC, as he's not about much at the moment, Saturday evening was my plan. 05:46 mvo https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-sevilla <- that is the list for dynamically specs, right? or is there more to look at 05:46 iwj pitti's question AIUI is should we do what we were encouraged to do last time, which is to subscribe to lots of specs we're interested in, or should we leave ourselves out of the scheduler some more and simply turn up to things on the day ? 05:47 pitti iwj: *nod* 05:47 pkl_ cjwatson: can we move the call to tomorrow? I need to vote (in the Welsh assembly election and catch a train to Birmingham)? 05:47 mdz mvo: yes 05:47 cjwatson pkl_: I will be on a train tomorrow 05:47 pitti erk, there's 'firewall' again; that's a SoC project 05:47 iwj Why is winmodem-support on the schedule 05:47 iwj ? 05:47 cjwatson pkl_: but I'll happily go over it in person with you on Sunday evening 05:47 mdz iwj,pitti: since subscription doesn't affect scheduling, you're free to do as you like 05:47 pkl_ cjwatson: OK, thanks. 05:47 mdz subscription means that you'll be notified of state changes on the spec, and you'll have a personal agenda generated by the scheduler 05:48 iwj Right. I might do that by hand and eye instead. 05:48 cjwatson pkl_: sorry, I mean Sat evening 05:48 mdz iwj: because it's still a big concern for our users? 05:48 iwj What I mean is is it not working ? 05:49 pkl_ cjwatson: OK, I assumed you meant Saturday :) 05:49 mdz iwj: no, it is not 05:49 mdz iwj: and the scope attempted for feisty apparently wasn't complete, either 05:49 iwj OK, well, fine, let's discuss it at UDS then. 05:49 mdz iwj: Keybuk has the details and can review this with you 05:50 iwj Keybuk> Oh, good. 05:50 mdz ok, anything further on UDS? 05:50 mdz any non-UDS items to raise? 05:51 pitti cjwatson: are you fine to sub to encrypted-file-systems for your installer expertise? 05:51 cjwatson pitti: yes, I think last I looked it conflicted with something but that is not now the case 05:51 fabbione pitti: i can be there for that. i have experience in partman* 05:52 iwj pitti: Can you sub me to that ? I'm trying to get a bit more into the installer and have some fs encryption experience. 05:52 fabbione pitti: assuming cjwatson will trust me enough :) 05:52 iwj Or I'll do it myself ... 05:52 pitti fabbione: that would be nice as well; but we should also integrate it into ubiquity somehow 05:52 pitti iwj: as you wish, I can do it quickly if you want 05:52 fabbione pitti: i am pretty sure ubiquity will suck it almost automatically 05:52 iwj Please. 05:52 cjwatson fabbione: you are mistaken] 05:53 cjwatson depending perhaps on how much flexibility there is in "almost" 05:53 cjwatson evand will need to be there for that; I've subscribed him 05:53 fabbione cjwatson: well pretty much a lot.. 05:53 pitti iwj: done 05:53 fabbione cjwatson: of flexibility 05:53 iwj pitti: Ta. 05:54 cjwatson fabbione: you're already subscribed to encrypted-filesystems anyway 05:54 cjwatson at this point, people should feel free to commit agenda items themselvees 05:54 Riddell do I need to register my specs in launchpad? 05:54 mdz indeed 05:54 cjwatson as your managers may well be travelling 05:54 cjwatson I was due to do a mass spec registration 05:54 Riddell cool 05:54 cjwatson or in some cases renaming in the core scheduler 05:54 cjwatson not quite sure when I'm going to fit that in, but I'll try ... 05:55 cjwatson sftp://chinstrap/home/warthogs/archives/scott/schedulemaker/ for the recorrd 05:56 mdz ok, looks like a wrap for the meeting 05:56 mdz I'm looking forward to seeing everyone this weekend 05:56 mdz travel safely and get some good sleep 05:56 mdz thanks, everyone 05:56 fabbione thanks 05:56 fabbione cya there 05:56 pkl_ see you all there. 05:56 bdmurray see you soon 05:56 asac thanks ... cu all on sat/sun! 05:57 mvo thanks 05:57 pitti see you all, safe travels! 05:57 seb128 thanks 05:57 dholbach thanks
MeetingLogs/UbuntuDev/20070503 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:28:50 by localhost)