<somerville32> Hey Everyone <TheSheep> Hello <somerville32> Do we want to use gobby too or just IRC fine for everyone? <Jmak> Hello <Jmak> irc fine <vinze> IRC here too <somerville32> I'm ready to start. Is everyone else ready to start? <vinze> Yup * Zeqfreed is ready for lurking <somerville32> So, who is all here for the Xubuntu meeting? <vinze> Me <Jmak> me <TheSheep> moi <vinze> Wow... So many :P --> cellofellow (email@example.com) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <vinze> Are we going to treat all items in their order on the Wiki? <kalikiana> hello at all :) <Solol> me too, though i won't have muxh to say --> terrex (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <somerville32> We can float around if there is something that a majority of us feel need to be discussed. <vinze> Right... <vinze> So, what should we handle first? <Jmak> artworks <vinze> Fine with me <earobinson> yup <vinze> Any idea what the sister projects are going to do (like the glossy for edgy)? <Jmak> For feisty i want to modify the color scheme of the graphics <TheSheep> green? :) <vinze> Hmm... What's the motivation? <vinze> Yuk :( <vinze> :P * cellofellow likes green * vinze doesn't <kalikiana> green is nice <somerville32> Should we ask Mark Shuttleworth to give us direction since he is giving direction to Ubuntu and Kubuntu? <Jmak> No, it would remain blue but more saturated <cellofellow> Jmak: then what? Become Kubuntu's Dapper colors? <TheSheep> Jmak: something like this? http://welcome.sheep.art.pl/static/xubuntu_logo.png <vinze> Too plain I think <Jmak> Mark said number of times that he doesnt want to interfere <vinze> The different colours should be more contrasting IMHO <cello_rasp> pale tango blue is in keeping with xfce <Jmak> Look at these <Jmak> http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4062/screenshot1od7.png http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/1783/screenshot2xt6.png http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1802/screenshoteyett8.png <-- dsas has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) <TheSheep> cello_rasp: the current xubuntu logo is more purplish than the tango color scheme --> dsas_ (email@example.com) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <Jmak> The pale is getting boring --- dsas_ is now known as dsas <TheSheep> Jmak: woudn't such a saturated background be tiring for the eyes? <vinze> I like the second one, the third is still loading <vinze> Yeah I agree on that TheSheep <cello_rasp> screenshoteyett8.png's panels are too garish and the icons are too gnome-icon-like, but the first 2 are going in the right direction. <cellofellow> Jmak: I like the last one. The first one looks too much lik Kubuntu Dapper and the second one doesn't look Ubuntu enough. <cellofellow> At least the wallpapers <Jmak> the icons are later <TheSheep> how about a light blue? <somerville32> Can I interupt? <vinze> I'd go for darker <vinze> Bring it on Cody <Jmak> Darker colors always better for the eye <vinze> And less disturbing, and less general <kalikiana> the first one a bit darker :) <somerville32> Determining the actual direction of art for Feisty is out of the scope of this meeting. There is a lot of the agenda and so I think it might be more effective to see who is interested in working on the artwork, see who wants to lead the artwork effort, arrange a follow-up meeting, and hear from people what they think the direction should be. <cello_rasp> Yes, a forums thread might be best. <vinze> Good point, so who is interested to work on the artwork? <Jmak> I can do that <TheSheep> me too <-- Adri2000 has quit ("Leave, left, left") <vinze> Great, that's two already <vinze> Any more? --> joejaxx (i=jadaz87@ubuntu/member/joejaxx) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <Jmak> Faisty should be super-duper in terms of visuals <cellofellow> Next on Agenda: Xubuntu feisty dev-roadmap <vinze> If not, I think Jmak and TheSheep, you can have your hands on it together and arrange user feedback <somerville32> Just a sec, cellofellow <cellofellow> ok, :) <Jmak> Therer still more stuff here to discuss <earobinson> did we miss the website? <vinze> Message Cody, Adam or me so the website can have a link to a forum topic or something where you ask for user input <Jmak> The icons <somerville32> JMak: Are you interested in heading the artwork efforts? <Jmak> What icons shoudl we use tango or something else <Jmak> ok <vinze> I think when you're with two there's no real need for an official coordinator <cellofellow> I like tango <-- mdke has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) <somerville32> vinze: Well, we'd like to get more people involved of course :] <TheSheep> in terms of completeness, there is practically only a choice of tango or gnome <Jmak> I think the artworks should be coordinated to prevent endig up with patchworks <vinze> Sure, but as apparently there are two as of yet... <vinze> Ah, that's true <Jmak> Iwould like the gray tango but not theblue one <cello_rasp> It should look good on white, as well <vinze> Blue might pose a problem because of the colour scheme, all blue might be too overwhelming IMHO <TheSheep> Jmak: or we could use something contrasting with the general theme, so that it's not boring <kalikiana> Let us stay with Tango as it is <cellofellow> which is used now? <TheSheep> cello_rasp: blue tango <TheSheep> sry <Jmak> The mubuntu peopel will use the blach tango <TheSheep> cellofellow: blue tango <cellofellow> :) <kalikiana> blue tango fits blue xubuntu :) <Czubek> Jmak: mubuntu? <earobinson> i with kalikiana <Jmak> Yes, a new multimedia flavor <cello_rasp> i think blue tango is perfect at the moment but a slight tweak to the location icons, to bring it into line with a future identity, is not a bad idea. <Jmak> It will be super cool, all black <kalikiana> cello_rasp: locations? <cellofellow> places you meen? <cello_rasp> Jmak: ubuntu-studio? <cello_rasp> places, sorry. <TheSheep> pink :D <Jmak> right ubuntu-studio <vinze> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_forks --> icheyne (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <somerville32> Alrighty. <somerville32> Lets review. <somerville32> 1. JMak is going to be our "artist-in-chief" and will lead our artwork efforts. <somerville32> 2. JMak and TheSheep are both interested on working on artwork <somerville32> 3. We have a good idea of what we want to do with artwork for Feisty. <vinze> OK... Next item? <somerville32> Now, do you guys want to pick a tenative date for a get together to further discuss artwork stuff or should we just move on for now? <cellofellow> Next on Agenda: Xubuntu feisty dev-roadmap <cellofellow> good idea <somerville32> Lets discuss the website first since the people are here to discuss it <Jmak> For the time being we can discuss art releted stuff on the mailing list <somerville32> I know some of the dev team who said they'd be here aren't here yet so it wouldn't be good to discuss the dev-roadmap without them. * somerville32 nods at Jmak. <cellofellow> ok thn <vinze> Let's move on to the website <somerville32> Can everyone take a peak at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Agenda/2006-11-25 ? <_MMA_> vinze: Thank goodness Ubuntu Studio isnt on your link. ;) <vinze> OK <vinze> Hehe <-- icheyne has quit (Remote closed the connection) <vinze> I liked Subuntu <somerville32> I've already archived today's Agenda and also elaborated on some stuff. --> mdke_ (n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <somerville32> I've also put a brain dump on the agenda for the website. <vinze> We should also discuss with what and how often we plan to update it <cellofellow> ok. openning said website * somerville32 nods. <vinze> The main Ubuntu website AFAIK isn't updated too regularly <-- dsas has quit (Remote closed the connection) <earobinson> nope they keep it the same... its good cuz its always a familiar place to go to <vinze> OK... So everything that stays the same should be of high quality <somerville32> I agree. <cellofellow> somerville32: you notice it says Zooboontoo for pronunciation on the website. <vinze> Perhaps we can collaborate on something on the wiki and when it's finished put it on the main website <vinze> Yeah that's true AFAIK <vinze> Should we take it off? <vinze> Because I'm not 100% sure <somerville32> I don't think it really matters. <-- cello_rasp has quit ("Leaving") <somerville32> People will pronounce it how they like <somerville32> haha <vinze> So... Take it off? <earobinson> ya <cellofellow> should the website look like ubuntu.com or kubuntu.org? or like it is but better? * kalikiana pronounces 'ksooboontoo' <TheSheep> cellofellow: you mean layout? <cellofellow> yeah <earobinson> i figure it should be based off them as it is now, so its the same feel just different content <somerville32> I'd like to propose the following mandate for the website: <-- mdke_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) <somerville32> The Xubuntu website is an excellent tool for propagating information to the community and is generally the first impression made on end-users. Hence, The Xubuntu Website must maintain a professional image, be informative, useful, and personify the personality of the Xubuntu distribution and Xubuntu community. <vinze> Isn't that all quite logical? <cellofellow> Yeah, at current the Xubuntu website is just short of professional and makes Xubuntu seem like a side project. <TheSheep> vinze: note what's *not* mentioned :) --> mdke_ (n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <Czubek> ubuntu.com layout is better IOM. <vinze> Yeah it could be a bit more proffessional <vinze> I prefer a fluid layout <kalikiana> imho xubuntu.org is nice - but its content is weak <Czubek> kalikiana: true. <TheSheep> Czubek: isn't it the same, only with smaller fonts? <vinze> A fluid layout that also looks fluid, I mean :P --> dsas (email@example.com) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <somerville32> Should we add tabs? <somerville32> Like, at the top like the other websites do? <TheSheep> somerville32: plese no <vinze> What content should there be at the website? <cellofellow> Point of Inquery: Does it use a CMS system of some type? <earobinson> tabs are really good imo <vinze> And what should be in the tabs? <somerville32> cellowfellow: CMS - Drupal <vinze> Drupal <TheSheep> cellofellow: drupal <TheSheep> lol <Czubek> TheSheep: maybe, small difference but i like it more ;) * kalikiana votes against tabs <vinze> What should be in the tabs? <TheSheep> personally I like the style that all the gnome.org and related pages have <TheSheep> looks *very* proffessional <cellofellow> Tabs it needs if it's going to hold other sections. <earobinson> what not have the same tab links as the ubuntu website? <earobinson> like wiki and such <kalikiana> just stay with the links at the right side <cellofellow> kubuntu has them too. I think they help stay organized. * somerville32 nods. <TheSheep> provided they will be the same and in the same order <vinze> Hmm.. Yeah, then we could also drop the links at the right I think <vinze> And merge multiple pages <somerville32> We still need the right links <cellofellow> ubuntu and kubuntu both have sidebars. * somerville32 nods. <kalikiana> so we'll have xubuntu.org design with kubuntu tabs? <TheSheep> I think the huge logo is not needed on every page -- just a splash on the first page, and small logo somewhere at the top on the rest, just as a reminder <vinze> I think a header helps to give a site a profile <vinze> And splashes are annoying <TheSheep> and the blue 'margins' make some trouble <cellofellow> margins make pages look more consisten across screensizes. <kalikiana> just the logo in small at the top, but no splash, so you can go to the front page from anywhere <TheSheep> I mean, the site looks 'closed' <vinze> How about this for tabs: Xubuntu | Community (or Get Involved?) | Get Xubuntu | Support <kalikiana> the front page should be a news page <TheSheep> cellofellow: provided the content is fixed-width, which is not the case <somerville32> + Wiki * vinze votes against margins <kalikiana> vinze: + downloads <cellofellow> TheSheep: it's not? well, then. get rid of them. <vinze> kalikiana: downloads would be in Get Xubuntu <vinze> But perhaps we would have to name it Downloads instead of Get Xubuntu <TheSheep> we still need graphics on the first page -- logo, screenshots, smiling people, whatever --> ranf (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <somerville32> I think we should try to mirror ubuntu.com as much as possible <vinze> And then put an update howto under support <somerville32> Just with a different colour pal. <kalikiana> vinze: oh, yes, sry <TheSheep> vinze: yeah, that's more intuitive <cellofellow> Well, ubuntu and kubunta call it get cause you can get CD's too. Not so with Xubuntu. <earobinson> I agree with somerville32 <vinze> Yeah we should put a clear notice about that <Czubek> smiling people, that's what i like ;) <vinze> Unless they will be doing it for Feisty <vinze> How about smiling people dressed in dark-blue? <cellofellow> Kubuntu has gears, Ubuntu has smiling people, Xubuntu has rats. <vinze> Yeah, true cellofellow <TheSheep> vinze: smiling people dressed as mice ;) <Czubek> lol <cellofellow> lol <vinze> Oh that would be cool! :P <vinze> And I think the font should be larger <somerville32> Xubuntu is still Linux for Humans... not Linux for Rats. <somerville32> haha <somerville32> So we can incorporate a people theme too <TheSheep> font size shoudn't be set at all -- then you get your browser's defaults, which is the only sane solution <vinze> Yeah I agree <vinze> And if they need to be smaller or larger, do it in percentages <cellofellow> I think it looks a little drab. Ubuntu is tasteful, Kubuntu is glossy, Xubuntu is just flat. <kalikiana> use 'pt' sizes :) <vinze> Kubuntu looks overdone to me <TheSheep> kalikiana: naah, *nobody* has dpi set right <vinze> 'pt' causes trouble on macs <cellofellow> Anything glossy does. <TheSheep> maybe we could be soft and plushy <TheSheep> and cuddly <vinze> Plushy sounds great to me <cellofellow> with little soft mice runnig around. lol <kalikiana> TheSheep: teddy-bear-brown? :P <TheSheep> kalikiana: pink <vinze> But I have no idea on how to do that, it'd probably be extra load on the artwork team <somerville32> Thats a good point <cellofellow> it needs to match the distro's colors whatever it does. <vinze> Plush mice <TheSheep> vinze: gimpressionist :) <somerville32> Is the artwork team going to contribute to website artwork? <vinze> Wow, gimppressionist is cool <TheSheep> somerville32: that's my plan, at least, I can also do the whole css <earobinson> well xfce is a lightweight graphical desktop environment, so shouldn't xubuntu be a lightweight ubuntu? <vinze> Well, I think the website should match the main theme <vinze> I can also do css, but not images <vinze> (Think of logo, etc.) --> mdke (n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke) has joined #ubuntu-meeting * cellofellow ins't so great with vectors either. <somerville32> Ok, lets review. <vinze> Vectors even worse <vinze> Go on: <TheSheep> maybe xubuntu.org should be flat (and clean), so that it shows how lightweight it is? <somerville32> I like the fluffy, cuddly feeling <somerville32> haha <somerville32> Anyhows. <earobinson> TheSheep ... exactly <vinze> How about web2.0-ish? <cellofellow> Should still look good. Add some curvy corners or something. <vinze> Minmalistic <-- Express has quit ("Quitte") <TheSheep> vinze: puh-leeeze <somerville32> Xfce4 isn't minmalistic though <vinze> TheSheep: What? <kalikiana> simplisitc, no fancy ajax thingies <somerville32> Xfce4 isn't simply <earobinson> xfce4 is lightweight however <vinze> No, not AJAXy <somerville32> It is simply lightweight <vinze> But I like web 2.0 layouts <vinze> Just the CSS <TheSheep> I take it stays on drupal? <somerville32> Xfce4 is a powerful desktop environment <cellofellow> Just not Gmail. <TheSheep> somerville32: yes, but how do we want to advertise it? :) <vinze> No not Gmail indeed :P <cellofellow> TheSheep: why change the engine? <somerville32> I like the cuddly, cute, idea <kalikiana> css is okay, but i'd avoid any scripts, flash or transparency <earobinson> http://www.xfce.org/index.php?page=overview&lang=en <TheSheep> cellofellow: no reason, just making sure <vinze> Strong, having at keast all the basics, but light-weight <earobinson> Xfce is a lightweight desktop environment for unix-like operating systems. It aims to be fast and lightweight, while still being visually appealing and easy to use. <TheSheep> kalikiana: of course * somerville32 nods. <vinze> Just use large fonts, large line-heights, and one or two gradients <TheSheep> and shadows <somerville32> I think a good direction for the website should be clean (not simple or flat), fluffy, warm, and inviting <vinze> And of course font-family: sans-serif <cellofellow> Let's make the website visually appealing and esy to use :) <somerville32> I concur! <vinze> That fits in <TheSheep> somerville32: warm blue? :/ <vinze> Wait, I'm going to put it on the wiki <somerville32> TheSheep: haha <somerville32> Ok, maybe cuddly blue? <TheSheep> somerville32: maybe we need a secondary color? yellow? red? <TheSheep> red on blue looks nice <somerville32> Our secondary colour is obvisously gray at this time <TheSheep> somerville32: hardly warm <cellofellow> two-tone blue is nice. <kalikiana> blue and gray sounds nice <somerville32> grayish-blue? <cellofellow> is the new website going to debut for Feisty? or before that? <somerville32> Cellofellow: Our new website has already debut <somerville32> We just need to improve it <-- mdke_ has quit (Connection timed out) --> luisbg (email@example.com) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <somerville32> Anyhow, we're taking too much time on this subject. <TheSheep> yeah, everyone 'knows' something about looks :) <cellofellow> ok, I just thought you were going to improve it behind the scenes and then "release" it. <vinze> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Website/Plans/Theme <cellofellow> what about the screenshot gallery idea? * cellofellow is looking at agenda * somerville32 nods. <somerville32> We can install a module <somerville32> Once drupal 5.0 comes out <somerville32> I suspect we'll be upgrading <vinze> Yeah that'd be allright <earobinson> cellofellow, that would be cool <somerville32> Or so thats the impression I get from jon <vinze> No link among the tabs needed, we can link there from the home page <cellofellow> earobinson: not my idea, somerville32's idea. <somerville32> and then I think we'll look at a screenshot module to help organize it <somerville32> Can we start the review for this item? <vinze> Yeah I think so <somerville32> 1. The artwork team is going to contribute to the website effort with... artwork <g> <cellofellow> we've mostly talked about looks. What about content? <somerville32> 2. We're going to implement tabs at the top <somerville32> 3. We're going to improve content in accordance of the mandate <somerville32> 4. We're going to continue to work on improving the skin <TheSheep> should we have a xubuntu tutorial, kind of a walktrough with screenshots? --> DrLock (n=DrLock@adsl-68-255-115-203.dsl.lgtpmi.ameritech.net) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <vinze> The Desktop Guide does that <cellofellow> Isn't that the Welcome Centre? Or something Before the download? <kalikiana> yep, the welcome center's for that * cellofellow will brb <TheSheep> kalikiana: it is? I though it's for general pointers and a link to the detailed tutorial :) <vinze> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Website/Plans --> luzi (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <vinze> *cough* Desktop Guide * somerville32 nods. * cellofellow had a wacky idea <kalikiana> TheSheep: yes, it's a first intro where later one can still read further - but we know that people first avoid to read :P <vinze> Tell us cellofellow <cellofellow> Have a script that opens firefox on first login with tabs open to the Welcome Centre and te Xubuntu Website and stuff, and then deletes itself. <vinze> Na, that'd be annoying I think <vinze> Especially if it's someone's first encounter with Firefox or tabs <vinze> Anyway, shall we continue to the next item? <cellofellow> Puppy and DSL do it, and it goes away after the first login. <somerville32> Thats why we have the welcome centre though <somerville32> IT <somerville32> It'll launch on first login <cellofellow> Welcome Centre. Of course. If it's not there to welcome them, why call it that? <somerville32> :] <vinze> We're getting off-topic... <somerville32> Everyone ready to move to the next topic? <cellofellow> Are we? <vinze> How about discussing Community Involvement? <cellofellow> ok <earobinson> sure * somerville32 nods. <somerville32> And lets mix in "COLLABORATING WITH OTHER UBUNTU TEAMS" as well <vinze> OK <somerville32> We need to figure out how we can make it easier for people to get involved. * TheSheep looks at somerville32's caps lock <vinze> When someone wants to join, where would be the first place to look? <somerville32> The website under "getting involved", haha <TheSheep> vinze: wiki <cellofellow> Launchpad? <vinze> Right, website or wiki <vinze> Perhaps launchpad <earobinson> launchpad <somerville32> I think if we had a page which lists the different teams <somerville32> How to get involved <somerville32> What needs to be done <vinze> So we need to make it easy on those places to find out how to get involved <somerville32> And things like how to sign up to the mailing list would be good <TheSheep> and to keep them up to date * somerville32 nods <kalikiana> and a hint to #xubuntu-devel :)= * somerville32 nods nods. <vinze> Then there also are people who might not have the intention of getting involved, but might decide to do so if the coincidentally find out they can easily * somerville32 nods. <TheSheep> a 'what needs to be done' page last edited 2 years ago is hardly encouraging <luzi> there's a big "Contributing" section on the wiki frontpage <somerville32> There is also a big one at http://xubuntu.org/devel <vinze> I think that should be split in multiple pages <somerville32> Thats a good idea <vinze> So people only have to read sections that apply to us <vinze> *them <vinze> And then process that in the wiki <somerville32> We could also have a "general overview" page that talks about the mailing list and -devel channel --> pirast_ (n=martin@p508B1547.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <somerville32> However, one con for splitting into different pages <somerville32> Some of the sections don't have much content <vinze> Perhaps merging some sections? <cellofellow> un-subdivide or expand those littel sections. <somerville32> TBH, I don't see a problem with the current page becuase there is an index at the top <vinze> E.g. Reporting Bugs and " Ideas and feedback" <somerville32> So it is the same thing anyhow * cellofellow nods <vinze> Well, it always discourages me when there's a lot of text on one page <cellofellow> Commmunity involvement doesn't just meen dev. What about marketting, like spreadfirefox.com? <somerville32> Thats on the page too <somerville32> Speaking on advocacy <cellofellow> point me too the page I'm lost. <somerville32> We need to get a presence in the marketing team <vinze> http://www.xubuntu.org/devel <-- pirast has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) <somerville32> http://xubuntu.org/devel <vinze> lol <vinze> OK, so who is in favour of splitting that page and who is against? * vinze is in favour <TheSheep> split <somerville32> I don't think it is worth the effort. <vinze> I don't mind doing it :P <cellofellow> we should market xubuntu as a replacement for Win98, seeing Win98 is no longer supported by M$. <vinze> 2:1 <cellofellow> Don't split. <TheSheep> 2:2 <vinze> 2:2 <somerville32> Ubuntu doesn't have it split <vinze> Crao <vinze> *p <somerville32> And it isn't a lot of text <earobinson> vote no split <somerville32> And then we'd have a ton of sub-menu links <vinze> cellofellow: I don't agree, there are way more people that Xubuntu is good for <vinze> No more than we do now somerville32 <cellofellow> vinze: who said ONLY a replacement for win98? <somerville32> We have 4 now and splitting would make 9 <somerville32> Maybe even 10 if we keep the meetings page <vinze> Noone, but if we were marketing on that <vinze> We should merge some sections then <cellofellow> vinze: so, don't be exclusive. Think of something else xubuntu *excels* at. <DrLock> no split: The index keeps the page from being intimidating, but being all on one page makes it easy to search quickly <vinze> And I don't think we should have off-site links <somerville32> 4:2 for not splitting <vinze> Right... <vinze> I give up :P <-- luisbg has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) <somerville32> lol <somerville32> I see what you mean vinze <somerville32> But there isn't enough content yet to warrant it <vinze> Any more points concerning the website? <vinze> That's true --> luisbg (email@example.com) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <somerville32> Well, I think the different teams should get their wiki pages updated and organized <vinze> But why those off-site links in a submenu? <somerville32> vinze: They are the team homepages <vinze> Why not under the Artwork section a link to http://www.xubuntu.org/devel <vinze> Etc. <vinze> That would be much more logical IMHO <cellofellow> good I dea. <somerville32> We could do that for sure but that means people will spend another 30 seconds looking <somerville32> And people want to get to their info quick <vinze> Sorry I meant to wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork * somerville32 nods. I know what you meant. <vinze> I think people looking to contribute to artwork would first look at the Artwork section and later or not at all at the menu <-- ranf has quit ("Ex-Chat") <cellofellow> so, redundantly spread info all over, or 1 topic 1 place? <somerville32> I think we should have both <cellofellow> :S ok <vinze> The page won't be split, but I think moving the subsection off-site links from the menu to the subsections would be better <somerville32> sub-menus to team homepages and links in description <vinze> OK, so I can add the links no matter what? <TheSheep> do we really need links to team pages on every page? <somerville32> It isn't on every page, TheSheep <somerville32> Only on the contribute page <TheSheep> I mean, most people will come there looking for info about xubuntu, not its development <somerville32> Vinze: Yup :) <TheSheep> ah, ok, I didn't understand the 'submenu' then :) <vinze> Ah, they're already there <somerville32> TheSheep: When you click "Get Involved", the submenu expands <somerville32> Anyhow, back to getting people involved. <somerville32> I think we need to get ourselves organized into teams and take responsability for keeping our content updated. <somerville32> For example, the artwork team needs to work on getting their wiki pages updated and organized <cellofellow> At what level do people start? Not jumping into development I don't think. Look at me. :) <somerville32> We'll update the website and wiki to make "getting involved" easier. <vinze> Translation, but that's more software-specific <somerville32> Vinze: Not at all <cellofellow> :? <somerville32> Vinze: We can translate all our applications via Rosseta <somerville32> Anyhows <somerville32> Lets talk about collaboration with our ubuntu teams <somerville32> *other <somerville32> The big one is ubuntu-marketing <vinze> OK I at least added a link to team meetings <vinze> Yeah perhaps some people could attend their meetings? <somerville32> We need to start lobbying them to include the promotion of Xubuntu <vinze> Anyway, I g2g, I'll read the logs <cellofellow> Teams? Like ubuntu and kubuntu branches? <vinze> Bye * somerville32 waves. * vinze waves back <-- mdke has quit (Remote closed the connection) <somerville32> This means that we need people interested in advocacy and marketing to work with them <-- vinze has quit (Remote closed the connection) <cellofellow> So, let Ubuntu people know Xubuntu is there? * somerville32 nods. * cellofellow nods back <somerville32> Cellofellow: Would you be interested in working with them? <somerville32> Make some contacts <somerville32> Get things moving <cellofellow> uh. I don't know, um. What would I have to do? <somerville32> For most things, we could piggyback on their efforts. <somerville32> Cellofellow: Well, you could attend their meetings, push Xubuntu where you can, make some contacts, etc. <cellofellow> sounds like lobbying. :) <earobinson> lol <somerville32> <g> <somerville32> I can help there too <somerville32> But we need to make Xubuntu have presence. <cellofellow> I'll give it a shot. <cellofellow> You've my email somerville32 <somerville32> Wicked. :] <somerville32> What other ubuntu teams can we work with? Any ideas? <earobinson> doc team? * somerville32 nods. <somerville32> I talked with them last night. <TheSheep> somerville32: kubuntu, take their themes ;) <cellofellow> should be working with them anyways. <somerville32> They said we need to get people interested in Xubuntu documentation <cellofellow> TheSheep: huh? <somerville32> And they'll help us out where we can <somerville32> *they <TheSheep> cellofellow: just kidding --> kkum (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <somerville32> :] <cellofellow> How much different is xubuntu from a normal xfce? Can we modify some of there docs? <somerville32> Xfce4 doesn't have much docs <cellofellow> just a thought <somerville32> So, any last topics we'd like to bring up or should we move on? <earobinson> move on I guess <cellofellow> Let's move to docs while we're on the subject anyways. <TheSheep> cellofellow: two main differences: no 'compositor' option and removed desktop icons <kalikiana> cellofellow: different/ gnomish desktop layout <cellofellow> the xubuntu xfwm isn't a stock xfwm? xubuntu added compositor? <cellofellow> kalikiana: the layout is just an options thing. <TheSheep> cellofellow: no, removed <somerville32> Yeah, lets discuss documentation <cellofellow> TheSheep: it's still there. <somerville32> Who is interested in working on that? <TheSheep> cellofellow: just because you had it enabled earlier <luzi> i still work on the documentation occacionally, but i don't have much time for it... <kalikiana> we might discuss later if compositor is an alternative to beryl ;) <cellofellow> docs are hard. Like, do you write for newbs, intermediate, or advanced users? <somerville32> Luzi: Are you John Levine? * cellofellow has a computer too slow for either compositor or beryl. <TheSheep> cellofellow: you need docs for all those groups <kalikiana> i fear the 'official' docs for xfce is still too incomplete <luzi> sommerville32: no, i'm the main author of xubuntu desktop guide (so far) <cellofellow> TheSheep: the Welcome Centre sounds like a good starting-off point for newbs. <earobinson> TheSheep, na you should just gear them at beginners that way advanced users can skip over what they dont need <luzi> and the name is luzi. <somerville32> Is anyone interested in heading up the Xubuntu documentation efforts? Luzi? <TheSheep> earobinson: yeah, start simple, more advanced things later * cellofellow doesn't feel up to it. :( --> mdke_ (n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke) has joined #ubuntu-meeting * somerville32 pokes Luzi. <luzi> i can not promise that i'll have much time for it, but i do plan to put some worki into xubuntu desktop guide for feisty. <luzi> s/worki/work/ <cellofellow> what do newbs need most? Basic navagation, what apps do, how to install software? <earobinson> no g? <TheSheep> cellofellow: I started collecting some common questions from #xubuntu <TheSheep> cellofellow: like 'where is the file manager?' <earobinson> I doubt xubuntut has a large new users base, most users would start with ubuntu the move over I think <luzi> earobinson,: 'g' stands for global, so we don't need it if its just one instance * earobinson learns something :) <somerville32> :] <cellofellow> What if more Linux newbs or even computer newbs come over to Xubuntu than we've been having? <somerville32> Luzi: Are you a member of the doc team? <luzi> sommerville32: yeah, i guess. i'm a comitter on their SVN repo, and i read the ML. <somerville32> Luzi: Could you be the editor-in-chief for this release cycle? I don't think anyone else has enough experience to get commit access to their repo yet. --> mdke__ (email@example.com) has joined #ubuntu-meeting * cellofellow will brb. <somerville32> I'm sure there is a ton of us interested in helping out but we need someone with experience to lead the effort atleast. <somerville32> I know I'm interested in doing doc work <somerville32> And I already do a lot of work on the wiki <luzi> sommerville32: i can't promise anything. maybe i'll be around, maybe not. <somerville32> Anyone else who could be reliable? <somerville32> *Do you know anyone else who could be reliable? <luzi> sommerville32, have a look here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam <luzi> you can just send patches to ubuntu-doc mailing list and those guys will commit if for you. <somerville32> Alrighty. <somerville32> Who is interested in helping with the documentation effort? * somerville32 raises his hand. * cellofellow Calls for the Orders of the Day. :) <somerville32> lol <somerville32> Ok, looks like it's going to be lonely on the doc team <somerville32> Do you want to talk about Open Week coming up? <cellofellow> What's Open Week? <somerville32> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/651 <somerville32> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek <somerville32> Should we make a presentation or something? <-- mdke_ has quit (Connection timed out) --> Adri2000 (n=Adri2000@unaffiliated/adri2000) has joined #ubuntu-meeting --> vinze (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <-- Xubuntix has quit ("Leaving.") <earobinson> It would be nice to see one <vinze> Hey --- poningru_ is now known as poningru <somerville32> Hey Vinze <vinze> Meeting still going? <somerville32> Yup. <earobinson> but then do we have enough to talk about <somerville32> We're discussing Open Week <vinze> Great <somerville32> I guess it all depends if we have a volunteer or not to tlak <somerville32> haha <cellofellow> What's the point of Open Week? I think we do need some presence. <kalikiana> so like somone speaking about xubuntu or what? * somerville32 nods. <vinze> A news item on the website perhaps? So people can at least take advantage even of non-Xubuntu specific topics <kalikiana> should be some pro then ;) <cellofellow> It's all in IRC channels? <earobinson> but how much could be said? * somerville32 nods at Kalikiana. <somerville32> They only have to talk for an hour <somerville32> And we've been talking about almost 2 now <vinze> Perhaps someone that has experience converting gnome-lib apps to normal gtk apps? <kalikiana> so would it be like this: 'hey, what has xubuntu for media?' - 'gxine it has.' <somerville32> It would talk about how to get involved with Xubuntu and what Xubuntu is <kalikiana> or like explaining what apps instead of gnome-apps <somerville32> And they'd most also likely field questions <cellofellow> sounds like a job for cody somerville to me. <vinze> No I meant what Jani did so ubuntu-system-tools or whatsitcalled <somerville32> Vinze: That doesn't really fit in with Open Week though <vinze> They can always ask for replacement programs in xubuntu-devel <somerville32> Cellofellow: haha, Why do you say that? :P <vinze> Doesn't it? <cellofellow> you seem pretty good at getting people involved. <vinze> Yeah I agree <-- Keyseir has quit ("Leaving") <-- Keyseir_ has quit ("Leaving") <vinze> But why wouldn't teaching people to make an app gnome-independant fit in? <somerville32> Vinze: 1. It would take more then a hour <vinze> Well I know nothing about it so I couldn't guess :P <somerville32> 2. It is more for teaching newbies how to get involved for the first time <vinze> Maintaining an Ubuntu Package? <vinze> That's also an item * somerville32 nods. <somerville32> That can be covered within an Hour <somerville32> And besides, not all gnome-dependent apps are coded in a single language <somerville32> It could get messy <vinze> Yeah but 2. is no real reason :P <vinze> Ah that's true <vinze> Ah well... <TheSheep> what about the packaging party? <vinze> They're not Xubuntu-specific <vinze> So you can just follow the Ubuntu ones I guess * somerville32 nods. <somerville32> Maybe just do what the sister projects are doing... a brief "intro" and how to get involved session <vinze> Btw, what topics have we dealt with up till now? <somerville32> We've done website, artwork, community, and documentation * TheSheep falls asleep <vinze> Ah, so I only missed documentation <somerville32> hehe, yeah * vinze slaps TheSheep <somerville32> Ok, so you think I should do something? * somerville32 feels a bit nervous. <TheSheep> when do we eat? <earobinson> it would be great if you could fell the hour <vinze> If you want to it'd be great <earobinson> + im sure some of us would come and support you <somerville32> Woot! :] <somerville32> So, lets pick a time slot and stick it in <vinze> Right.. <somerville32> Schedule is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek <vinze> Stick it in where it fits you <earobinson> 18.00 right after ask mark? <vinze> Can you? Are you allowed to stick it in where you want? <somerville32> I think so <somerville32> But I think that would be a tough act to follow <somerville32> And what if mark stays to watch? * somerville32 quivers. --> ogra (n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <vinze> Hehe, you can build a reputation :P <earobinson> Im sure thats why no one has taken it <somerville32> How about Wednesday at 2100? <vinze> Be brave and take it ;) <somerville32> haha * TheSheep cheers somerville32 <vinze> You're the one to decide * vinze cheers somerville32 * somerville32 quivers. * vinze cheers somerville32 again <TheSheep> take-it take-it <somerville32> Ok, so that would be 2pm my time * somerville32 ponders. <vinze> take-iit take-it <TheSheep> somerville32: look, what's the worst thing that can happen? <somerville32> True. I could always change my name if I screw up, haha <vinze> You won't stutter <vinze> Lol <vinze> So, when will it be? <somerville32> Wednesday night would most likely be the best for me, TBH <somerville32> haha <vinze> There is no info on how to host your own <vinze> Do you know someone you could contact? Or should you just fit it it? <somerville32> I could e-mail Jono <somerville32> Anyhows, lets move on. <vinze> Agreed <somerville32> I'll let you all know at the end of the meeting so you can all be there <g> <vinze> Right <vinze> Next topic Menu Editor? <vinze> Or the roadmap, but I think Jani should be there <somerville32> Jani won't be here today <Czubek> Cya all. <-- Czubek has quit ("Ex-Chat") <vinze> Bye <vinze> So.. Next topic is? <somerville32> Feisty Fawn? <earobinson> FEISTY FAWN? <earobinson> lol <vinze> ??? <somerville32> FEISTY FAWN!! :D <vinze> ??? <earobinson> XUBUNTU FEISTY DEV-ROAD MAP <somerville32> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Agenda/2006-11-25#head-b3906fa39e6558abbf434f7340757371444f67d4 <TheSheep> feisty frown <somerville32> "What emerging desktop technology can the Xubuntu distribution adopt?" <vinze> So how are we going to decide what to do when Jani isn't there? <vinze> Beryl-Beryl-Beryl! <somerville32> haha <TheSheep> somerville32: what is 'emerging desktop technology'? <vinze> Beryl-Beryl-Beryl! <TheSheep> somerville32: electronic pencil sharpeners? <somerville32> TheSheep: You'll have to "Ask Mark" at the "Ask Mark" meeting, haha :P <vinze> Beryl-Beryl-Beryl! <kalikiana> what about the search tool <vinze> Yeah that really is missing <somerville32> Well, work is already occuring on the search tool <TheSheep> yeah, that's desktop technology <vinze> Is it? <somerville32> Ubuntu is going to implement tracker <somerville32> And so we just need to make an applet or something for it <-- mdke__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) <cellofellow> Dekstop search is cool. <TheSheep> I began to make a gtk front-end to tracker <earobinson> keep it as simple as possible I don't see the need to adopt anything, or at least make it an option duing install <vinze> So what exactly is tracker? <TheSheep> vinze: http://www.gnome.org/~jamiemcc/tracker/ <kalikiana> tracker is a demon for sql-based fullsearch in filesystems <TheSheep> vinze: file indexer <kalikiana> and TheSheap already made a nice python GUI <vinze> Ah great * kalikiana curses his keyboard <vinze> I'm learning Python right now :P --> Mez (n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez) has joined #ubuntu-meeting * somerville32 nods. <somerville32> What about telepathy? <somerville32> I'm not using Edgy --> ompaul (n=ompaul@gnewsense/friend/ompaul) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <somerville32> Is telepathy used in the Xubuntu desktop? * TheSheep forgot to read about what's telepathy <vinze> Telepathy? <kalikiana> meta tracker is freedesktop compliant :) <somerville32> Telepathy is like a communication framework or something or another <vinze> Never heard of it <somerville32> http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/ <TheSheep> somerville32: but xubuntu is 90% a one-user-at-a-time install <vinze> Not for me <vinze> Btw, Tracker looks cool <kalikiana> and it is fast <vinze> But about telepathy: what exactly is its use? <kalikiana> and there are cli tools ;) <somerville32> I think that maybe we should defer Feisty Fawn and Dev-Roadmap until we have a more developer-enabled meeting. What do you guys think? <TheSheep> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Teams/IM/DesktopIntegrationSIPIM?action=show&redirect=MOTUIM%2FDesktopIntegrationSIPIM * vinze agrees <TheSheep> somerville32: yup <TheSheep> share presence and address book information between any application that deals with people --> cassidy (email@example.com) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <earobinson> I like that one TheSheep <somerville32> What about the desktop menu? <-- cassidy has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) <earobinson> huh? <vinze> Well, if I knew how to edit it by manually perhaps I could try and make a Python app but I don't know how long that'll take... <TheSheep> right, I'd like to have a second 'Places' menu <somerville32> IS the current menu freedesktop.org compliant? --> cassidy (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <TheSheep> somerville32: yes <somerville32> Why isn't it the same as Gnome and KDE then? <TheSheep> somerville32: it doesn't implement the full spec <kalikiana> TheSheep: what exactly do you want? <kalikiana> TheShepp: what is missing do you think? <vinze> It's partly compliant <TheSheep> kalikiana: a menu with 'home, filesystem, trash, media, etc.' <vinze> What's the etc.? <TheSheep> kalikiana: all links to Thunar with different parameters <TheSheep> vinze: et cetera <somerville32> Like Ubuntu's setup <vinze> Yeah but what does it stand for? <somerville32> I agree as well <kalikiana> TheSheep: oh, like once we had that in the panel :) <somerville32> We could have Applications, Places, and System <vinze> If we have a menu with only four items... <kalikiana> so should we have places in the panel? or in the main menu? <somerville32> In the panel <somerville32> Like three different menus <TheSheep> somerville32: that's a hard one, afaik xfce can have only one automatically-generated menu <vinze> Would it be possible to have the System menu only show up for people with administrator rights? <kalikiana> i like browser, terminal and fileman in the panel <TheSheep> somerville32: but the 'places' menu doesn't need to be autogenerated <vinze> Perhaps not Terminal kalikiana * somerville32 nods. * kalikiana kalikiana looks sad - kalikiana likes his terminal <vinze> Yeah but not everybody accesses it frequently, especially not new Linux users <vinze> You can add it yourself, can't you? <kalikiana> isn't it essential for anybody to use a terminal sometime? <vinze> My panel is full of icons <TheSheep> vinze: but they should ;) <cellofellow> Mine's full of icons and little menus. :) <vinze> Then Xubuntu would have a huge learning curve <somerville32> I think we should just conform to what Applications have <kalikiana> if there is no terminal, what about 'type apt-get...' for support? <somerville32> Err.. <somerville32> To what Ubuntu has <vinze> Use Synaptic <kalikiana> but often you can't help with GUI only <vinze> If they say "type sudo apt-get..." they also say "Open a Terminal Window" <TheSheep> btw, the link to terminal is in the menu, under 'system' <vinze> Yeah where it should be <vinze> Not by default in the panel <TheSheep> and Thunar has 'open terminal here' in the context menu <somerville32> Maybe we could draw up a specification? <kalikiana> oh, there is a link in system *g* <somerville32> I'd like to setup default shortcuts too <somerville32> In Thunar <vinze> But what about the System menu only showing up for users with administrator rights? <vinze> Yeah me too <vinze> Ehh, Templates I mean <somerville32> That too <somerville32> For System, I think everyone should see it <somerville32> And shutdown and what should be in there <vinze> Why? <vinze> Shutdown shouldn't be in there <somerville32> It is in Ubuntu <vinze> Only things that only adminstrators can do <somerville32> Only things Administrators can do should be under "Administration" <somerville32> Which could be under System <vinze> Oh, then I mean that one * somerville32 nods. <vinze> Can "Administration" be hidden for non-administrators? <somerville32> I'm sure we could figure out something <vinze> That'd be great <-- ogra has quit ("Verlassend") <cellofellow> Makes no diff. You still need sudo rights to use those. <vinze> I think it's especially confusing when users are asked to enter a password and the only password they know is wrong <cellofellow> true <vinze> They can't do things there anyway, so... <somerville32> I think we should have a "run as" tool instead of sudo <vinze> A "run as" tool? <somerville32> What I mean, being able to select the user too <vinze> Oh, yeah <earobinson> like windows? --> Smiffeh (email@example.com) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <somerville32> Yup. <vinze> Does windows have that? <kalikiana> would noobs use that? <vinze> Yeah <kalikiana> vinze: win2k has, i believe <TheSheep> somerville32: what's that for? I mean, only root can switch users anyways <vinze> E.g. for Thunar <somerville32> It would be especially useful for xscreensaver lock <TheSheep> a link with 'open another gdm session' would be good <vinze> If someone quickly needs to save their files to their USB stick but someone else is at the computer they don't have to go back to the login window <TheSheep> it is there in gnome <luzi> I have got to go. Byebye... <vinze> Oh I set it up too <vinze> Bye <cellofellow> Yeah, there's no way to open a new login without first locking the screen, <TheSheep> it should be there by defualt <vinze> I agree <somerville32> I think someone with admin access should be able to unlock a user's screen or atleast force it to log out without having to start a new gdm session <TheSheep> probably also on a keyboard shortcut * somerville32 waves at luzi. --> mdke_ (n=matt@ubuntu/member/mdke) has joined #ubuntu-meeting <-- luzi has quit ("no hood to roast") <somerville32> Ok, so we're going to write a spec that includes some customization to xubuntu default settings? <cellofellow> There is a button in kubuntu and ubuntu to open a new login session, nothing like that Xubuntu. <vinze> Yeah we should <earobinson> would be usefull <TheSheep> cellofellow: you can do it with a simple launcher <vinze> Anyway, on to another point? <cellofellow> What't the command then? <kalikiana> where would it open a new session? <vinze> It would go back to gdm <vinze> I'm not on my home computer so I can't look up the command now <kalikiana> oh, and the last one is still open? <vinze> Something with gdmflexiserver <vinze> Yeah <kalikiana> cool <vinze> Perhaps just gdmflexiserver will do <cellofellow> What't the command then? <vinze> Perhaps just gdmflexiserver will do <kalikiana> so put that in the wiki, i'm persuaded ;) <vinze> Btw, where can I find the logs, I got to go in a mintue... <somerville32> It'll be on the wiki <earobinson> me 2 <somerville32> Last topic <vinze> OK, great <vinze> Which is...? <somerville32> Future meetings <vinze> Right <somerville32> Should we have regular dev meetings? <vinze> Emm.. How often? <somerville32> Every 3 weeks have a dev meeting? <somerville32> And teams can schedule whenever they want? <vinze> I think not too often, 3 weeks are fine IMHO <vinze> Yeah <somerville32> Maybe every 2 weeks even? <vinze> Perhaps 2 weeks is too often <earobinson> ya 3 sounds good <vinze> But I'm not sure, we could also just try it <-- DrLock has quit ("Leaving") <vinze> Keep it on 3 for now, move to 2 if it's too little? <somerville32> The TechBoard meets every 2 weeks <vinze> OK then, perhaps the other way around? <somerville32> Whats the other way around? <earobinson> 2 for now move it to 3 if its to much <vinze> So once every 2 weeks and if it's too often move it to 3 <vinze> Let's do that then, now decide on when <vinze> Weekends would be best for me <vinze> Normally I'm not at the computer in the evenings, in weekends they can be during daytime <TheSheep> lots of people travel at weekends <vinze> Oh crap... <somerville32> Jani wants weekday meetings --- Ubugtu has changed the topic to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Nov 16:00 UTC: LoCo Team | 29 Nov 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu <vinze> That's what you get with different ages :P <cellofellow> nothing's ever good for everyone. <vinze> So when will we do it? <earobinson> alter it <cellofellow> Does that meen the meetings over? ^^^^ <somerville32> Wednesday nights <vinze> Almost :P <vinze> Then I can't ever be there, but ah well... <earobinson> why not have every odd meeting on weekends and even during the weekday <earobinson> well i gtg <vinze> Hmm.. .That'd be an option <vinze> Bye <somerville32> Wednesday nights 2400 UTC? <vinze> 2400!?! Don't you have a life? :P <kalikiana> aren't still topics missing? * cellofellow was late cause he thought GMT and UTC were different. <somerville32> 2400 UTC is 8pm for me <somerville32> 2300 UTC? <somerville32> 2200 UTC? <vinze> And 0100 for me :P <vinze> Anyway, I can't be there at wednesdays, I think all people that can should vote on the time <cellofellow> I never know. I'll come to the ones I can. <vinze> So about about earobinson's proposal? * cellofellow waves <-- cellofellow (firstname.lastname@example.org) has left #ubuntu-meeting <somerville32> Alrighty. * somerville32 declares the meeting over.