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{{{<somerville32> Hey Everyone {{{
<somerville32> Hey Everyone

<somerville32> Hey Everyone
<TheSheep> Hello
<somerville32> Do we want to use gobby too or just IRC fine for everyone?
<Jmak> Hello
<Jmak> irc fine
<vinze> IRC here too
<somerville32> I'm ready to start. Is everyone else ready to start?
<vinze> Yup
* Zeqfreed is ready for lurking
<somerville32> So, who is all here for the Xubuntu meeting?
<vinze> Me
<Jmak> me
<TheSheep> moi
<vinze> Wow... So many :P
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<vinze> Are we going to treat all items in their order on the Wiki?
<kalikiana> hello at all :)
<Solol> me too, though i won't have muxh to say
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<somerville32> We can float around if there is something that a majority of us feel need to be discussed.
<vinze> Right...
<vinze> So, what should we handle first?
<Jmak> artworks
<vinze> Fine with me
<earobinson> yup
<vinze> Any idea what the sister projects are going to do (like the glossy for edgy)?
<Jmak> For feisty i want to modify the color scheme of the graphics
<TheSheep> green? :)
<vinze> Hmm... What's the motivation?
<vinze> Yuk :(
<vinze> :P
* cellofellow likes green
* vinze doesn't
<kalikiana> green is nice
<somerville32> Should we ask Mark Shuttleworth to give us direction since he is giving direction to Ubuntu and Kubuntu?
<Jmak> No, it would remain blue but more saturated
<cellofellow> Jmak: then what? Become Kubuntu's Dapper colors?
<TheSheep> Jmak: something like this? http://welcome.sheep.art.pl/static/xubuntu_logo.png
<vinze> Too plain I think
<Jmak> Mark said number of times that he doesnt want to interfere
<vinze> The different colours should be more contrasting IMHO
<cello_rasp> pale tango blue is in keeping with xfce
<Jmak> Look at these
<Jmak>                                           http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4062/screenshot1od7.png    http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/1783/screenshot2xt6.png    http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1802/screenshoteyett8.png       
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<TheSheep> cello_rasp: the current xubuntu logo is more purplish than the tango color scheme
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<Jmak> The pale is getting boring
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<TheSheep> Jmak: woudn't such a saturated background be tiring for the eyes?
<vinze> I like the second one, the third is still loading
<vinze> Yeah I agree on that TheSheep 
<cello_rasp> screenshoteyett8.png's panels are too garish and the icons are too gnome-icon-like, but the first 2 are going in the right direction.
<cellofellow> Jmak: I like the last one. The first one looks too much lik Kubuntu Dapper and the second one doesn't look Ubuntu enough.
<cellofellow> At least the wallpapers
<Jmak> the icons are later
<TheSheep> how about a light blue?
<somerville32> Can I interupt?
<vinze> I'd go for darker
<vinze> Bring it on Cody
<Jmak> Darker colors always better for the eye
<vinze> And less disturbing, and less general
<kalikiana> the first one a bit darker  :)
<somerville32> Determining the actual direction of art for Feisty is out of the scope of this meeting. There is a lot of the agenda and so I think it might be more effective to see who is interested in working on the artwork, see who wants to lead the artwork effort, arrange a follow-up meeting, and hear from people what they think the direction should be.
<cello_rasp> Yes, a forums thread might be best.
<vinze> Good point, so who is interested to work on the artwork?
<Jmak> I can do that
<TheSheep> me too
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<vinze> Great, that's two already
<vinze> Any more?
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<Jmak> Faisty should be super-duper in terms of visuals
<cellofellow> Next on Agenda: Xubuntu feisty dev-roadmap
<vinze> If not, I think Jmak and TheSheep, you can have your hands on it together and arrange user feedback
<somerville32> Just a sec, cellofellow
<cellofellow> ok, :)
<Jmak> Therer still more stuff here to discuss
<earobinson> did we miss the website?
<vinze> Message Cody, Adam or me so the website can have a link to a forum topic or something where you ask for user input
<Jmak> The icons
<somerville32> JMak: Are you interested in heading the artwork efforts?
<Jmak> What icons shoudl we use tango or something else
<Jmak> ok
<vinze> I think when you're with two there's no real need for an official coordinator
<cellofellow> I like tango
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<somerville32> vinze: Well, we'd like to get more people involved of course :]
<TheSheep> in terms of completeness, there is practically only a choice of tango or gnome
<Jmak> I think the artworks should be coordinated to prevent endig up with patchworks
<vinze> Sure, but as apparently there are two as of yet...
<vinze> Ah, that's true
<Jmak> Iwould like the gray tango but not theblue one
<cello_rasp> It should look good on white, as well
<vinze> Blue might pose a problem because of the colour scheme, all blue might be too overwhelming IMHO
<TheSheep> Jmak: or we could use something contrasting with the general theme, so that it's not boring
<kalikiana> Let us stay with Tango as it is
<cellofellow> which is used now?
<TheSheep> cello_rasp: blue tango
<TheSheep> sry
<Jmak> The mubuntu peopel will use the blach tango
<TheSheep> cellofellow: blue tango
<cellofellow> :)
<kalikiana> blue tango fits blue xubuntu :)
<Czubek> Jmak: mubuntu?
<earobinson> i with kalikiana
<Jmak> Yes, a new multimedia flavor
<cello_rasp> i think blue tango is perfect at the moment but a slight tweak to the location icons, to bring it into line with a future identity, is not a bad idea.
<Jmak> It will be super cool, all black
<kalikiana> cello_rasp: locations?
<cellofellow> places you meen?
<cello_rasp> Jmak: ubuntu-studio?
<cello_rasp> places, sorry.
<TheSheep> pink :D
<Jmak> right ubuntu-studio
<vinze> http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_forks
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<somerville32> Alrighty.
<somerville32> Lets review.
<somerville32> 1. JMak is going to be our "artist-in-chief" and will lead our artwork efforts.
<somerville32> 2. JMak and TheSheep are both interested on working on artwork
<somerville32> 3. We have a good idea of what we want to do with artwork for Feisty.
<vinze> OK... Next item?
<somerville32> Now, do you guys want to pick a tenative date for a get together to further discuss artwork stuff or should we just move on for now?
<cellofellow> Next on Agenda: Xubuntu feisty dev-roadmap
<cellofellow> good idea
<somerville32> Lets discuss the website first since the people are here to discuss it
<Jmak> For the time being we can discuss art releted stuff on the mailing list
<somerville32> I know some of the dev team who said they'd be here aren't here yet so it wouldn't be good to discuss the dev-roadmap without them.
* somerville32 nods at Jmak.
<cellofellow> ok thn
<vinze> Let's move on to the website
<somerville32> Can everyone take a peak at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Agenda/2006-11-25 ?
<_MMA_> vinze: Thank goodness Ubuntu Studio isnt on your link. ;)
<vinze> OK
<vinze> Hehe
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<vinze> I liked Subuntu
<somerville32> I've already archived today's Agenda and also elaborated on some stuff.
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<somerville32> I've also put a brain dump on the agenda for the website.
<vinze> We should also discuss with what and how often we plan to update it
<cellofellow> ok. openning said website
* somerville32 nods.
<vinze> The main Ubuntu website AFAIK isn't updated too regularly
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<earobinson> nope they keep it the same... its good cuz its always a familiar place to go to
<vinze> OK... So everything that stays the same should be of high quality
<somerville32> I agree.
<cellofellow> somerville32: you notice it says Zooboontoo for pronunciation on the website.
<vinze> Perhaps we can collaborate on something on the wiki and when it's finished put it on the main website
<vinze> Yeah that's true AFAIK
<vinze> Should we take it off?
<vinze> Because I'm not 100% sure
<somerville32> I don't think it really matters.
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<somerville32> People will pronounce it how they like
<somerville32> haha
<vinze> So... Take it off?
<earobinson> ya
<cellofellow> should the website look like ubuntu.com or kubuntu.org? or like it is but better?
* kalikiana pronounces 'ksooboontoo'
<TheSheep> cellofellow: you mean layout?
<cellofellow> yeah
<earobinson> i figure it should be based off them as it is now, so its the same feel just different content
<somerville32> I'd like to propose the following mandate for the website:
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<somerville32> The Xubuntu website is an excellent tool for propagating information to the community and is generally the first impression made on end-users. Hence, The Xubuntu Website must maintain a professional image, be informative, useful, and personify the personality of the Xubuntu distribution and Xubuntu community.
<vinze> Isn't that all quite logical?
<cellofellow> Yeah, at current the Xubuntu website is just short of professional and makes Xubuntu seem like a side project.
<TheSheep> vinze: note what's *not* mentioned :)
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<Czubek> ubuntu.com layout is better IOM.
<vinze> Yeah it could be a bit more proffessional
<vinze> I prefer a fluid layout
<kalikiana> imho xubuntu.org is nice - but its content is weak
<Czubek> kalikiana: true.
<TheSheep> Czubek: isn't it the same, only with smaller fonts?
<vinze> A fluid layout that also looks fluid, I mean :P
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<somerville32> Should we add tabs?
<somerville32> Like, at the top like the other websites do?
<TheSheep> somerville32: plese no
<vinze> What content should there be at the website?
<cellofellow> Point of Inquery: Does it use a CMS system of some type?
<earobinson> tabs are really good imo
<vinze> And what should be in the tabs?
<somerville32> cellowfellow: CMS - Drupal
<vinze> Drupal
<TheSheep> cellofellow: drupal
<TheSheep> lol
<Czubek> TheSheep: maybe, small difference but i like it more ;)
* kalikiana votes against tabs
<vinze> What should be in the tabs?
<TheSheep> personally I like the style that all the gnome.org and related pages have
<TheSheep> looks *very* proffessional
<cellofellow> Tabs it needs if it's going to hold other sections.
<earobinson> what not have the same tab links as the ubuntu website?
<earobinson> like wiki and such
<kalikiana> just stay with the links at the right side
<cellofellow> kubuntu has them too. I think they help stay organized.
* somerville32 nods.
<TheSheep> provided they will be the same and in the same order
<vinze> Hmm.. Yeah, then we could also drop the links at the right I think
<vinze> And merge multiple pages
<somerville32> We still need the right links
<cellofellow> ubuntu and kubuntu both have sidebars.
* somerville32 nods.
<kalikiana> so we'll have xubuntu.org design with kubuntu tabs?
<TheSheep> I think the huge logo is not needed on every page -- just a splash on the first page, and small logo somewhere at the top on the rest, just as a reminder
<vinze> I think a header helps to give a site a profile
<vinze> And splashes are annoying
<TheSheep> and the blue 'margins' make some trouble
<cellofellow> margins make pages look more consisten across screensizes.
<kalikiana> just the logo in small at the top, but no splash, so you can go to the front page from anywhere
<TheSheep> I mean, the site looks 'closed'
<vinze> How about this for tabs: Xubuntu | Community (or Get Involved?) | Get Xubuntu | Support
<kalikiana> the front page should be a news page
<TheSheep> cellofellow: provided the content is fixed-width, which is not the case
<somerville32> + Wiki
* vinze votes against margins
<kalikiana> vinze: + downloads
<cellofellow> TheSheep: it's not? well, then. get rid of them.
<vinze> kalikiana:  downloads would be in Get Xubuntu
<vinze> But perhaps we would have to name it Downloads instead of Get Xubuntu
<TheSheep> we still need graphics on the first page -- logo, screenshots, smiling people, whatever
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<somerville32> I think we should try to mirror ubuntu.com as much as possible
<vinze> And then put an update howto under support
<somerville32> Just with a different colour pal.
<kalikiana> vinze: oh, yes, sry
<TheSheep> vinze: yeah, that's more intuitive
<cellofellow> Well, ubuntu and kubunta call it get cause you can get CD's too. Not so with Xubuntu.
<earobinson> I agree with somerville32 
<vinze> Yeah we should put a clear notice about that
<Czubek> smiling people, that's what i like ;)
<vinze> Unless they will be doing it for Feisty
<vinze> How about smiling people dressed in dark-blue?
<cellofellow> Kubuntu has gears, Ubuntu has smiling people, Xubuntu has rats.
<vinze> Yeah, true cellofellow 
<TheSheep> vinze: smiling people dressed as mice ;)
<Czubek> lol
<cellofellow> lol
<vinze> Oh that would be cool! :P
<vinze> And I think the font should be larger
<somerville32> Xubuntu is still Linux for Humans... not Linux for Rats.
<somerville32> haha
<somerville32> So we can incorporate a people theme too
<TheSheep> font size shoudn't be set at all -- then you get your browser's defaults, which is the only sane solution
<vinze> Yeah I agree
<vinze> And if they need to be smaller or larger, do it in percentages
<cellofellow> I think it looks a little drab. Ubuntu is tasteful, Kubuntu is glossy, Xubuntu is just flat.
<kalikiana> use 'pt' sizes :)
<vinze> Kubuntu looks overdone to me
<TheSheep> kalikiana: naah, *nobody* has dpi set right
<vinze> 'pt' causes trouble on macs
<cellofellow> Anything glossy does.
<TheSheep> maybe we could be soft and plushy
<TheSheep> and cuddly
<vinze> Plushy sounds great to me
<cellofellow> with little soft mice runnig around. lol
<kalikiana> TheSheep: teddy-bear-brown? :P
<TheSheep> kalikiana: pink
<vinze> But I have no idea on how to do that, it'd probably be extra load on the artwork team
<somerville32> Thats a good point
<cellofellow> it needs to match the distro's colors whatever it does.
<vinze> Plush mice
<TheSheep> vinze: gimpressionist :)
<somerville32> Is the artwork team going to contribute to website artwork?
<vinze> Wow, gimppressionist is cool
<TheSheep> somerville32: that's my plan, at least, I can also do the whole css
<earobinson> well xfce is a lightweight graphical desktop environment, so shouldn't xubuntu be a lightweight ubuntu?
<vinze> Well, I think the website should match the main theme
<vinze> I can also do css, but not images
<vinze> (Think of logo, etc.)
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* cellofellow ins't so great with vectors either.
<somerville32> Ok, lets review.
<vinze> Vectors even worse
<vinze> Go on:
<TheSheep> maybe xubuntu.org should be flat (and clean), so that it shows how lightweight it is?
<somerville32> I like the fluffy, cuddly feeling
<somerville32> haha
<somerville32> Anyhows.
<earobinson> TheSheep ... exactly
<vinze> How about web2.0-ish?
<cellofellow> Should still look good. Add some curvy corners or something.
<vinze> Minmalistic
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<TheSheep> vinze: puh-leeeze
<somerville32> Xfce4 isn't minmalistic though
<vinze> TheSheep: What?
<kalikiana> simplisitc, no fancy ajax thingies
<somerville32> Xfce4 isn't simply
<earobinson> xfce4 is lightweight however
<vinze> No, not AJAXy
<somerville32> It is simply lightweight
<vinze> But I like web 2.0 layouts
<vinze> Just the CSS
<TheSheep> I take it stays on drupal?
<somerville32> Xfce4 is a powerful desktop environment
<cellofellow> Just not Gmail.
<TheSheep> somerville32: yes, but how do we want to advertise it? :)
<vinze> No not Gmail indeed :P
<cellofellow> TheSheep: why change the engine?
<somerville32> I like the cuddly, cute, idea
<kalikiana> css is okay, but i'd avoid any scripts, flash or transparency
<earobinson> http://www.xfce.org/index.php?page=overview&lang=en
<TheSheep> cellofellow: no reason, just making sure
<vinze> Strong, having at keast all the basics, but light-weight
<earobinson> Xfce is a lightweight desktop environment for unix-like operating systems. It aims to be fast and lightweight, while still being visually appealing and easy to use.
<TheSheep> kalikiana: of course
* somerville32 nods.
<vinze> Just use large fonts, large line-heights, and one or two gradients
<TheSheep> and shadows
<somerville32> I think a good direction for the website should be clean (not simple or flat), fluffy, warm, and inviting
<vinze> And of course font-family: sans-serif
<cellofellow> Let's make the website visually appealing and esy to use :)
<somerville32> I concur!
<vinze> That fits in
<TheSheep> somerville32: warm blue? :/
<vinze> Wait, I'm going to put it on the wiki
<somerville32> TheSheep: haha
<somerville32> Ok, maybe cuddly blue?
<TheSheep> somerville32: maybe we need a secondary color? yellow? red?
<TheSheep> red on blue looks nice
<somerville32> Our secondary colour is obvisously gray at this time
<TheSheep> somerville32: hardly warm
<cellofellow> two-tone blue is nice.
<kalikiana> blue and gray sounds nice
<somerville32> grayish-blue?
<cellofellow> is the new website going to debut for Feisty? or before that?
<somerville32> Cellofellow: Our new website has already debut
<somerville32> We just need to improve it
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<somerville32> Anyhow, we're taking too much time on this subject.
<TheSheep> yeah, everyone 'knows' something about looks :)
<cellofellow> ok, I just thought you were going to improve it behind the scenes and then "release" it.
<vinze> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Website/Plans/Theme
<cellofellow> what about the screenshot gallery idea?
* cellofellow is looking at agenda
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> We can install a module
<somerville32> Once drupal 5.0 comes out
<somerville32> I suspect we'll be upgrading
<vinze> Yeah that'd be allright
<earobinson> cellofellow, that would be cool
<somerville32> Or so thats the impression I get from jon
<vinze> No link among the tabs needed, we can link there from the home page
<cellofellow> earobinson: not my idea, somerville32's idea.
<somerville32> and then I think we'll look at a screenshot module to help organize it
<somerville32> Can we start the review for this item?
<vinze> Yeah I think so
<somerville32> 1. The artwork team is going to contribute to the website effort with... artwork <g>
<cellofellow> we've mostly talked about looks. What about content?
<somerville32> 2. We're going to implement tabs at the top
<somerville32> 3. We're going to improve content in accordance of the mandate
<somerville32> 4. We're going to continue to work on improving the skin
<TheSheep> should we have a xubuntu tutorial, kind of a walktrough with screenshots?
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<vinze> The Desktop Guide does that
<cellofellow> Isn't that the Welcome Centre? Or something Before the download?
<kalikiana> yep, the welcome center's for that
* cellofellow will brb
<TheSheep> kalikiana: it is? I though it's for general pointers and a link to the detailed tutorial :)
<vinze> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Website/Plans
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<vinze> *cough* Desktop Guide
* somerville32 nods.
* cellofellow had a wacky idea
<kalikiana> TheSheep: yes, it's a first intro where later one can still read further - but we know that people first avoid to read :P
<vinze> Tell us cellofellow 
<cellofellow> Have a script that opens firefox on first login with tabs open to the Welcome Centre and te Xubuntu Website and stuff, and then deletes itself.
<vinze> Na, that'd be annoying I think
<vinze> Especially if it's someone's first encounter with Firefox or tabs
<vinze> Anyway, shall we continue to the next item?
<cellofellow> Puppy and DSL do it, and it goes away after the first login.
<somerville32> Thats why we have the welcome centre though
<somerville32> IT
<somerville32> It'll launch on first login
<cellofellow> Welcome Centre. Of course. If it's not there to welcome them, why call it that?
<somerville32> :]
<vinze> We're getting off-topic...
<somerville32> Everyone ready to move to the next topic?
<cellofellow> Are we?
<vinze> How about discussing Community Involvement?
<cellofellow> ok
<earobinson> sure
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> And lets mix in "COLLABORATING WITH OTHER UBUNTU TEAMS" as well
<vinze> OK
<somerville32> We need to figure out how we can make it easier for people to get involved.
* TheSheep looks at somerville32's caps lock
<vinze> When someone wants to join, where would be the first place to look?
<somerville32> The website under "getting involved", haha
<TheSheep> vinze: wiki
<cellofellow> Launchpad?
<vinze> Right, website or wiki
<vinze> Perhaps launchpad
<earobinson> launchpad
<somerville32> I think if we had a page which lists the different teams
<somerville32> How to get involved
<somerville32> What needs to be done
<vinze> So we need to make it easy on those places to find out how to get involved
<somerville32> And things like how to sign up to the mailing list would be good
<TheSheep> and to keep them up to date
* somerville32 nods
<kalikiana> and a hint to #xubuntu-devel :)=
* somerville32 nods nods.
<vinze> Then there also are people who might not have the intention of getting involved, but might decide to do so if the coincidentally find out they can easily
* somerville32 nods.
<TheSheep> a 'what needs to be done' page last edited 2 years ago is hardly encouraging
<luzi> there's a big "Contributing" section on the wiki frontpage
<somerville32> There is also a big one at http://xubuntu.org/devel
<vinze> I think that should be split in multiple pages
<somerville32> Thats a good idea
<vinze> So people only have to read sections that apply to us
<vinze> *them
<vinze> And then process that in the wiki
<somerville32> We could also have a "general overview" page that talks about the mailing list and -devel channel
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<somerville32> However, one con for splitting into different pages
<somerville32> Some of the sections don't have much content
<vinze> Perhaps merging some sections?
<cellofellow> un-subdivide or expand those littel sections.
<somerville32> TBH, I don't see a problem with the current page becuase there is an index at the top
<vinze> E.g. Reporting Bugs and " Ideas and feedback"
<somerville32> So it is the same thing anyhow
* cellofellow nods
<vinze> Well, it always discourages me when there's a lot of text on one page
<cellofellow> Commmunity involvement doesn't just meen dev. What about marketting, like spreadfirefox.com?
<somerville32> Thats on the page too
<somerville32> Speaking on advocacy
<cellofellow> point me too the page I'm lost.
<somerville32> We need to get a presence in the marketing team
<vinze> http://www.xubuntu.org/devel
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<somerville32> http://xubuntu.org/devel
<vinze> lol
<vinze> OK, so who is in favour of splitting that page and who is against?
* vinze is in favour
<TheSheep> split
<somerville32> I don't think it is worth the effort.
<vinze> I don't mind doing it :P
<cellofellow> we should market xubuntu as a replacement for Win98, seeing Win98 is no longer supported by M$.
<vinze> 2:1
<cellofellow> Don't split.
<TheSheep> 2:2
<vinze> 2:2
<somerville32> Ubuntu doesn't have it split
<vinze> Crao
<vinze> *p
<somerville32> And it isn't a lot of text
<earobinson> vote no split
<somerville32> And then we'd have a ton of sub-menu links
<vinze> cellofellow: I don't agree, there are way more people that Xubuntu is good for
<vinze> No more than we do now somerville32 
<cellofellow> vinze: who said ONLY a replacement for win98?
<somerville32> We have 4 now and splitting would make 9
<somerville32> Maybe even 10 if we keep the meetings page
<vinze> Noone, but if we were marketing on that
<vinze> We should merge some sections then
<cellofellow> vinze: so, don't be exclusive. Think of something else xubuntu *excels* at.
<DrLock> no split: The index keeps the page from being intimidating, but being all on one page makes it easy to search quickly
<vinze> And I don't think we should have off-site links
<somerville32> 4:2 for not splitting
<vinze> Right...
<vinze> I give up :P
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<somerville32> lol
<somerville32> I see what you mean vinze
<somerville32> But there isn't enough content yet to warrant it
<vinze> Any more points concerning the website?
<vinze> That's true
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<somerville32> Well, I think the different teams should get their wiki pages updated and organized
<vinze> But why those off-site links in a submenu?
<somerville32> vinze: They are the team homepages
<vinze> Why not under the Artwork section a link to http://www.xubuntu.org/devel
<vinze> Etc.
<vinze> That would be much more logical IMHO
<cellofellow> good I dea.
<somerville32> We could do that for sure but that means people will spend another 30 seconds looking
<somerville32> And people want to get to their info quick
<vinze> Sorry I meant to wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork
* somerville32 nods. I know what you meant.
<vinze> I think people looking to contribute to artwork would first look at the Artwork section and later or not at all at the menu
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<cellofellow> so, redundantly spread info all over, or 1 topic 1 place?
<somerville32> I think we should have both
<cellofellow> :S ok
<vinze> The page won't be split, but I think moving the subsection off-site links from the menu to the subsections would be better
<somerville32> sub-menus to team homepages and links in description
<vinze> OK, so  I can add the links no matter what?
<TheSheep> do we really need links to team pages on every page?
<somerville32> It isn't on every page, TheSheep
<somerville32> Only on the contribute page
<TheSheep> I mean, most people will come there looking for info about xubuntu, not its development
<somerville32> Vinze: Yup :)
<TheSheep> ah, ok, I didn't understand the 'submenu' then :)
<vinze> Ah, they're already there
<somerville32> TheSheep: When you click "Get Involved", the submenu expands
<somerville32> Anyhow, back to getting people involved.
<somerville32> I think we need to get ourselves organized into teams and take responsability for keeping our content updated.
<somerville32> For example, the artwork team needs to work on getting their wiki pages updated and organized
<cellofellow> At what level do people start? Not jumping into development I don't think. Look at me. :)
<somerville32> We'll update the website and wiki to make "getting involved" easier.
<vinze> Translation, but that's more software-specific
<somerville32> Vinze: Not at all
<cellofellow> :?
<somerville32> Vinze: We can translate all our applications via Rosseta
<somerville32> Anyhows
<somerville32> Lets talk about collaboration with our ubuntu teams
<somerville32> *other
<somerville32> The big one is ubuntu-marketing
<vinze> OK I at least added a link to team meetings
<vinze> Yeah perhaps some people could attend their meetings?
<somerville32> We need to start lobbying them to include the promotion of Xubuntu
<vinze> Anyway, I g2g, I'll read the logs 
<cellofellow> Teams? Like ubuntu and kubuntu branches?
<vinze> Bye
* somerville32 waves.
* vinze waves back
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<somerville32> This means that we need people interested in advocacy and marketing to work with them
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<cellofellow> So, let Ubuntu people know Xubuntu is there?
* somerville32 nods.
* cellofellow nods back
<somerville32> Cellofellow: Would you be interested in working with them?
<somerville32> Make some contacts
<somerville32> Get things moving
<cellofellow> uh. I don't know, um. What would I have to do?
<somerville32> For most things, we could piggyback on their efforts.
<somerville32> Cellofellow: Well, you could attend their meetings, push Xubuntu where you can, make some contacts, etc.
<cellofellow> sounds like lobbying. :)
<earobinson> lol
<somerville32> <g>
<somerville32> I can help there too
<somerville32> But we need to make Xubuntu have presence. 
<cellofellow> I'll give it a shot. 
<cellofellow> You've my email somerville32 
<somerville32> Wicked. :]
<somerville32> What other ubuntu teams can we work with? Any ideas?
<earobinson> doc team?
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> I talked with them last night.
<TheSheep> somerville32: kubuntu, take their themes ;)
<cellofellow> should be working with them anyways.
<somerville32> They said we need to get people interested in Xubuntu documentation
<cellofellow> TheSheep: huh?
<somerville32> And they'll help us out where we can
<somerville32> *they
<TheSheep> cellofellow: just kidding
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<somerville32> :]
<cellofellow> How much different is xubuntu from a normal xfce? Can we modify some of there docs?
<somerville32> Xfce4 doesn't have much docs
<cellofellow> just a thought
<somerville32> So, any last topics we'd like to bring up or should we move on?
<earobinson> move on I guess
<cellofellow> Let's move to docs while we're on the subject anyways.
<TheSheep> cellofellow: two main differences: no 'compositor' option and removed desktop icons
<kalikiana> cellofellow: different/ gnomish desktop layout
<cellofellow> the xubuntu xfwm isn't a stock xfwm? xubuntu added compositor?
<cellofellow> kalikiana: the layout is just an options thing.
<TheSheep> cellofellow: no, removed
<somerville32> Yeah, lets discuss documentation
<cellofellow> TheSheep: it's still there.
<somerville32> Who is interested in working on that?
<TheSheep> cellofellow: just because you had it enabled earlier
<luzi> i still work on the documentation occacionally, but i don't have much time for it...
<kalikiana> we might discuss later if compositor is an alternative to beryl ;)
<cellofellow> docs are hard. Like, do you write for newbs, intermediate, or advanced users?
<somerville32> Luzi: Are you John Levine?
* cellofellow has a computer too slow for either compositor or beryl.
<TheSheep> cellofellow: you need docs for all those groups
<kalikiana> i fear the 'official' docs for xfce is still too incomplete
<luzi> sommerville32: no, i'm the main author of xubuntu desktop guide (so far)
<cellofellow> TheSheep: the Welcome Centre sounds like a good starting-off point for newbs.
<earobinson> TheSheep, na you should just gear them at beginners that way advanced users can skip over what they dont need
<luzi> and the name is luzi.
<somerville32> Is anyone interested in heading up the Xubuntu documentation efforts? Luzi?
<TheSheep> earobinson: yeah, start simple, more advanced things later
* cellofellow doesn't feel up to it. :(
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* somerville32 pokes Luzi.
<luzi> i can not promise that i'll have much time for it, but i do plan to put some worki into xubuntu desktop guide for feisty.
<luzi> s/worki/work/
<cellofellow> what do newbs need most? Basic navagation, what apps do, how to install software?
<earobinson> no g?
<TheSheep> cellofellow: I started collecting some common questions from #xubuntu
<TheSheep> cellofellow: like 'where is the file manager?'
<earobinson> I doubt xubuntut has a large new users base, most users would start with ubuntu the move over I think
<luzi> earobinson,: 'g' stands for global, so we don't need it if its just one instance
* earobinson learns something :)
<somerville32> :]
<cellofellow> What if more Linux newbs or even computer newbs come over to Xubuntu than we've been having?
<somerville32> Luzi: Are you a member of the doc team?
<luzi> sommerville32: yeah, i guess. i'm a comitter on their SVN repo, and i read the ML.
<somerville32> Luzi: Could you be the editor-in-chief for this release cycle? I don't think anyone else has enough experience to get commit access to their repo yet.
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* cellofellow will brb.
<somerville32> I'm sure there is a ton of us interested in helping out but we need someone with experience to lead the effort atleast.
<somerville32> I know I'm interested in doing doc work 
<somerville32> And I already do a lot of work on the wiki
<luzi> sommerville32: i can't promise anything. maybe i'll be around, maybe not.
<somerville32> Anyone else who could be reliable?
<somerville32> *Do you know anyone else who could be reliable?
<luzi> sommerville32, have a look here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<luzi> you can just send patches to ubuntu-doc mailing list and those guys will commit if for you.
<somerville32> Alrighty.
<somerville32> Who is interested in helping with the documentation effort?
* somerville32 raises his hand.
* cellofellow Calls for the Orders of the Day. :)
<somerville32> lol
<somerville32> Ok, looks like it's going to be lonely on the doc team
<somerville32> Do you want to talk about Open Week coming up?
<cellofellow> What's Open Week?
<somerville32> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/651
<somerville32> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<somerville32> Should we make a presentation or something?
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<earobinson> It would be nice to see one
<vinze> Hey
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<somerville32> Hey Vinze
<vinze> Meeting still going?
<somerville32> Yup.
<earobinson> but then do we have enough to talk about
<somerville32> We're discussing Open Week
<vinze> Great
<somerville32> I guess it all depends if we have a volunteer or not to tlak
<somerville32> haha
<cellofellow> What's the point of Open Week? I think we do need some presence.
<kalikiana> so like somone speaking about xubuntu or what?
* somerville32 nods.
<vinze> A news item on the website perhaps? So people can at least take advantage even of non-Xubuntu specific topics
<kalikiana> should be some pro then ;)
<cellofellow> It's all in IRC channels?
<earobinson> but how much could be said?
* somerville32 nods at Kalikiana.
<somerville32> They only have to talk for an hour
<somerville32> And we've been talking about almost 2 now
<vinze> Perhaps someone that has experience converting gnome-lib apps to normal gtk apps?
<kalikiana> so would it be like this: 'hey, what has xubuntu for media?' - 'gxine it has.'
<somerville32> It would talk about how to get involved with Xubuntu and what Xubuntu is
<kalikiana> or like explaining what apps instead of gnome-apps
<somerville32> And they'd most also likely field questions
<cellofellow> sounds like a job for cody somerville to me.
<vinze> No I meant what Jani did so ubuntu-system-tools or whatsitcalled
<somerville32> Vinze: That doesn't really fit in with Open Week though
<vinze> They can always ask for replacement programs in xubuntu-devel
<somerville32> Cellofellow: haha, Why do you say that? :P
<vinze> Doesn't it?
<cellofellow> you seem pretty good at getting people involved.
<vinze> Yeah I agree
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<vinze> But why wouldn't teaching people to make an app gnome-independant fit in?
<somerville32> Vinze: 1. It would take more then a hour
<vinze> Well I know nothing about it so I couldn't guess :P
<somerville32> 2. It is more for teaching newbies how to get involved for the first time
<vinze> Maintaining an Ubuntu Package?
<vinze> That's also an item
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> That can be covered within an Hour
<somerville32> And besides, not all gnome-dependent apps are coded in a single language
<somerville32> It could get messy
<vinze> Yeah but 2. is no real reason :P
<vinze> Ah that's true
<vinze> Ah well...
<TheSheep> what about the packaging party?
<vinze> They're not Xubuntu-specific
<vinze> So you can just follow the Ubuntu ones I guess
* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> Maybe just do what the sister projects are doing... a brief "intro" and how to get involved session
<vinze> Btw, what topics have we dealt with up till now?
<somerville32> We've done website, artwork, community, and documentation
* TheSheep falls asleep
<vinze> Ah, so I only missed documentation
<somerville32> hehe, yeah
* vinze slaps TheSheep 
<somerville32> Ok, so you think I should do something?
* somerville32 feels a bit nervous.
<TheSheep> when do we eat?
<earobinson> it would be great if you could fell the hour
<vinze> If you want to it'd be great
<earobinson> + im sure some of us would come and support you
<somerville32> Woot! :]
<somerville32> So, lets pick a time slot and stick it in
<vinze> Right..
<somerville32> Schedule is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<vinze> Stick it in where it fits you
<earobinson> 18.00 right after ask mark?
<vinze> Can you? Are you allowed to stick it in where you want?
<somerville32> I think so
<somerville32> But I think that would be a tough act to follow
<somerville32> And what if mark stays to watch?
* somerville32 quivers.
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<vinze> Hehe, you can build a reputation :P
<earobinson> Im sure thats why no one has taken it
<somerville32> How about Wednesday at 2100?
<vinze> Be brave and take it ;)
<somerville32> haha
* TheSheep cheers somerville32 
<vinze> You're the one to decide
* vinze cheers somerville32 
* somerville32 quivers.
* vinze cheers somerville32 again
<TheSheep> take-it take-it
<somerville32> Ok, so that would be 2pm my time
* somerville32 ponders.
<vinze> take-iit take-it
<TheSheep> somerville32: look, what's the worst thing that can happen?
<somerville32> True. I could always change my name if I screw up, haha
<vinze> You won't stutter
<vinze> Lol
<vinze> So, when will it be?
<somerville32> Wednesday night would most likely be the best for me, TBH
<somerville32> haha
<vinze> There is no info on how to host your own
<vinze> Do you know someone you could contact? Or should you just fit it it?
<somerville32> I could e-mail Jono
<somerville32> Anyhows, lets move on.
<vinze> Agreed
<somerville32> I'll let you all know at the end of the meeting so you can all be there <g>
<vinze> Right
<vinze> Next topic Menu Editor?
<vinze> Or the roadmap, but I think Jani should be there
<somerville32> Jani won't be here today
<Czubek> Cya all.
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<vinze> Bye
<vinze> So.. Next topic is?
<somerville32> Feisty Fawn?
<earobinson> FEISTY FAWN?
<earobinson> lol
<vinze> ???
<somerville32> FEISTY FAWN!! :D
<vinze> ???
<somerville32> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Agenda/2006-11-25#head-b3906fa39e6558abbf434f7340757371444f67d4
<TheSheep> feisty frown
<somerville32> "What emerging desktop technology can the Xubuntu distribution adopt?"
<vinze> So how are we going to decide what to do when Jani isn't there?
<vinze> Beryl-Beryl-Beryl!
<somerville32> haha
<TheSheep> somerville32: what is 'emerging desktop technology'?
<vinze> Beryl-Beryl-Beryl!
<TheSheep> somerville32: electronic pencil sharpeners?
<somerville32> TheSheep: You'll have to "Ask Mark" at the "Ask Mark" meeting, haha :P
<vinze> Beryl-Beryl-Beryl!
<kalikiana> what about the search tool
<vinze> Yeah that really is missing
<somerville32> Well, work is already occuring on the search tool
<TheSheep> yeah, that's desktop technology
<vinze> Is it?
<somerville32> Ubuntu is going to implement tracker
<somerville32> And so we just need to make an applet or something for it
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<cellofellow> Dekstop search is cool.
<TheSheep> I began to make a gtk front-end to tracker
<earobinson> keep it as simple as possible I don't see the need to adopt anything, or at least make it an option duing install
<vinze> So what exactly is tracker?
<TheSheep> vinze: http://www.gnome.org/~jamiemcc/tracker/
<kalikiana> tracker is a demon for sql-based fullsearch in filesystems
<TheSheep> vinze: file indexer
<kalikiana> and TheSheap already made a nice python GUI
<vinze> Ah great
* kalikiana curses his keyboard
<vinze> I'm learning Python right now :P
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* somerville32 nods.
<somerville32> What about telepathy?
<somerville32> I'm not using Edgy
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<somerville32> Is telepathy used in the Xubuntu desktop?
* TheSheep forgot to read about what's telepathy
<vinze> Telepathy?
<kalikiana> meta tracker is freedesktop compliant :)
<somerville32> Telepathy is like a communication framework or something or another
<vinze> Never heard of it
<somerville32> http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/
<TheSheep> somerville32: but xubuntu is 90% a one-user-at-a-time  install
<vinze> Not for me
<vinze> Btw, Tracker looks cool
<kalikiana> and it is fast
<vinze> But about telepathy: what exactly is its use?
<kalikiana> and there are cli tools ;)
<somerville32> I think that maybe we should defer Feisty Fawn and Dev-Roadmap until we have a more developer-enabled meeting. What do you guys think?
<TheSheep> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Teams/IM/DesktopIntegrationSIPIM?action=show&redirect=MOTUIM%2FDesktopIntegrationSIPIM
* vinze agrees
<TheSheep> somerville32: yup
<TheSheep> share presence and address book information between any application that deals with people
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<earobinson> I like that one TheSheep 
<somerville32> What about the desktop menu?
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<earobinson> huh?
<vinze> Well, if I knew how to edit it by manually perhaps I could try and make a Python app but I don't know how long that'll take...
<TheSheep> right, I'd like to have a second 'Places' menu
<somerville32> IS the current menu freedesktop.org compliant?
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<TheSheep> somerville32: yes
<somerville32> Why isn't it the same as Gnome and KDE then?
<TheSheep> somerville32: it doesn't implement the full spec
<kalikiana> TheSheep: what exactly do you want?
<kalikiana> TheShepp: what is missing do you think?
<vinze> It's partly compliant
<TheSheep> kalikiana: a menu with 'home, filesystem, trash, media, etc.'
<vinze> What's the etc.?
<TheSheep> kalikiana: all links to Thunar with different parameters
<TheSheep> vinze: et cetera
<somerville32> Like Ubuntu's setup
<vinze> Yeah but what does it stand for?
<somerville32> I agree as well
<kalikiana> TheSheep: oh, like once we had that in the panel :)
<somerville32> We could have Applications, Places, and System
<vinze> If we have a menu with only four items...
<kalikiana> so should we have places in the panel? or in the main menu?
<somerville32> In the panel
<somerville32> Like three different menus
<TheSheep> somerville32: that's a hard one, afaik xfce can have only one automatically-generated menu
<vinze> Would it be possible to have the System menu only show up for people with administrator rights?
<kalikiana> i like browser, terminal and fileman in the panel
<TheSheep> somerville32: but the 'places' menu doesn't need to be autogenerated
<vinze> Perhaps not Terminal kalikiana 
* somerville32 nods.
* kalikiana kalikiana looks sad - kalikiana likes his terminal
<vinze> Yeah but not everybody accesses it frequently, especially not new Linux users
<vinze> You can add it yourself, can't you?
<kalikiana> isn't it essential for anybody to use a terminal sometime?
<vinze> My panel is full of icons
<TheSheep> vinze: but they should ;)
<cellofellow> Mine's full of icons and little menus. :)
<vinze> Then Xubuntu would have a huge learning curve
<somerville32> I think we should just conform to what Applications have
<kalikiana> if there is no terminal, what about 'type apt-get...' for support?
<somerville32> Err..
<somerville32> To what Ubuntu has
<vinze> Use Synaptic
<kalikiana> but often you can't help with GUI only
<vinze> If they say "type sudo apt-get..." they also say "Open a Terminal Window"
<TheSheep> btw, the link to terminal is in the menu, under 'system'
<vinze> Yeah where it should be
<vinze> Not by default in the panel
<TheSheep> and Thunar has 'open terminal here' in the context menu
<somerville32> Maybe we could draw up a specification?
<kalikiana> oh, there is a link in system *g*
<somerville32> I'd like to setup default shortcuts too
<somerville32> In Thunar
<vinze> But what about the System menu only showing up for users with administrator rights?
<vinze> Yeah me too
<vinze> Ehh, Templates I mean
<somerville32> That too
<somerville32> For System, I think everyone should see it
<somerville32> And shutdown and what should be in there
<vinze> Why?
<vinze> Shutdown shouldn't be in there
<somerville32> It is in Ubuntu
<vinze> Only things that only adminstrators can do
<somerville32> Only things Administrators can do should be under "Administration"
<somerville32> Which could be under System
<vinze> Oh, then I mean that one
* somerville32 nods.
<vinze> Can "Administration" be hidden for non-administrators?
<somerville32> I'm sure we could figure out something
<vinze> That'd be great
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<cellofellow> Makes no diff. You still need sudo rights to use those.
<vinze> I think it's especially confusing when users are asked to enter a password and the only password they know is wrong
<cellofellow> true
<vinze> They can't do things there anyway, so...
<somerville32> I think we should have a "run as" tool instead of sudo
<vinze> A "run as" tool?
<somerville32> What I mean, being able to select the user too
<vinze> Oh, yeah
<earobinson> like windows?
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<somerville32> Yup.
<vinze> Does windows have that?
<kalikiana> would noobs use that?
<vinze> Yeah
<kalikiana> vinze: win2k has, i believe
<TheSheep> somerville32: what's that for? I mean, only root can switch users anyways
<vinze> E.g. for Thunar
<somerville32> It would be especially useful for xscreensaver lock
<TheSheep> a link with 'open another gdm session' would be good
<vinze> If someone quickly needs to save their files to their USB stick but someone else is at the computer they don't have to go back to the login window
<TheSheep> it is there in gnome
<luzi> I have got to go. Byebye...
<vinze> Oh I set it up too
<vinze> Bye
<cellofellow> Yeah, there's no way to open a new login without first locking the screen,
<TheSheep> it should be there by defualt
<vinze> I agree
<somerville32> I think someone with admin access should be able to unlock a user's screen or atleast force it to log out without having to start a new gdm session
<TheSheep> probably also on a keyboard shortcut
* somerville32 waves at luzi.
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<somerville32> Ok, so we're going to write a spec that includes some customization to xubuntu default settings?
<cellofellow> There is a button in kubuntu and ubuntu to open a new login session, nothing like that Xubuntu.
<vinze> Yeah we should
<earobinson> would be usefull
<TheSheep> cellofellow: you can do it with a simple launcher
<vinze> Anyway, on to another point?
<cellofellow> What't the command then?
<kalikiana> where would it open a new session?
<vinze> It would go back to gdm
<vinze> I'm not on my home computer so I can't look up the command now
<kalikiana> oh, and the last one is still open?
<vinze> Something with gdmflexiserver
<vinze> Yeah
<kalikiana> cool
<vinze> Perhaps just gdmflexiserver will do
<cellofellow> What't the command then?
<vinze> Perhaps just gdmflexiserver will do
<kalikiana> so put that in the wiki, i'm persuaded ;)
<vinze> Btw, where can I find the logs, I got to go in a mintue...
<somerville32> It'll be on the wiki
<earobinson> me 2
<somerville32> Last topic
<vinze> OK, great
<vinze> Which is...?
<somerville32> Future meetings
<vinze> Right
<somerville32> Should we have regular dev meetings?
<vinze> Emm.. How often?
<somerville32> Every 3 weeks have a dev meeting?
<somerville32> And teams can schedule whenever they want?
<vinze> I think not too often, 3 weeks are fine IMHO
<vinze> Yeah
<somerville32> Maybe every 2 weeks even?
<vinze> Perhaps 2 weeks is too often
<earobinson> ya 3 sounds good
<vinze> But I'm not sure, we could also just try it
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<vinze> Keep it on 3 for now, move to 2 if it's too little?
<somerville32> The TechBoard meets every 2 weeks
<vinze> OK then, perhaps the other way around?
<somerville32> Whats the other way around?
<earobinson> 2 for now move it to 3 if its to much
<vinze> So once every 2 weeks and if it's too often move it to 3
<vinze> Let's do that then, now decide on when
<vinze> Weekends would be best for me
<vinze> Normally I'm not at the computer in the evenings, in weekends they can be during daytime
<TheSheep> lots of people travel at weekends
<vinze> Oh crap...
<somerville32> Jani wants weekday meetings
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<vinze> That's what you get with different ages :P
<cellofellow> nothing's ever good for everyone.
<vinze> So when will we do it?
<earobinson> alter it
<cellofellow> Does that meen the meetings over? ^^^^
<somerville32> Wednesday nights
<vinze> Almost :P
<vinze> Then I can't ever be there, but ah well...
<earobinson> why not have every odd meeting on weekends and even during the weekday
<earobinson> well i gtg
<vinze> Hmm.. .That'd be an option
<vinze> Bye
<somerville32> Wednesday nights 2400 UTC?
<vinze> 2400!?! Don't you have a life? :P
<kalikiana> aren't still topics missing?
* cellofellow was late cause he thought GMT and UTC were different.
<somerville32> 2400 UTC is 8pm for me
<somerville32> 2300 UTC?
<somerville32> 2200 UTC?
<vinze> And 0100 for me :P
<vinze> Anyway, I can't be there at wednesdays, I think all people that can should vote on the time
<cellofellow> I never know. I'll come to the ones I can.
<vinze> So about about earobinson's proposal?
* cellofellow waves
<-- cellofellow (n=josh@ has left #ubuntu-meeting
<somerville32> Alrighty.
* somerville32 declares the meeting over.

MeetingLogs/Xubuntu_2006-11-25 (last edited 2008-08-06 17:00:17 by localhost)