Xubuntu_2007-05-20

06:56   somerville32    Oh, look. My clock must be off by 5 minutes :/ -- all of my clocks, lol
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07:00   j1mc    hi all
07:00   nixternal       howdy
07:00   somerville32    Hiya
07:00   earobinson      hey
07:01   j1mc    wow, nixternal is here, too
=== j1mc waves
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07:01   nixternal       sitting here at the CoDLUG meeting :)
07:01   nixternal       it is nice and quiet here today
07:01   nixternal       getting some hacking done
07:01   j1mc    cool.
07:01   ongardie        hey
07:02   j1mc    hi ongardie
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07:03   somerville32    Is this the first xubuntu-devel meeting for Gutsy?
07:03   j1mc    somerville32: yes it is
07:04   somerville32    Awesome. I'm pumped.
07:04   j1mc    me, too
07:05   j1mc    according to the agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings ... we're supposed to cover:
07:05   j1mc    featureset for 7.10
07:05   j1mc    discussion of help center
07:05   j1mc    ideas for 7.10 documentation (yeay!)
07:05   j1mc    and ... whether or not to add a murrine gtk theme.
07:05   j1mc    i am not married to this agenda, though.
=== j1mc added the "yeay!" at the end of the documentation note.
=== somerville32 is editing that wiki page.
07:06   j1mc    np, somerville32
07:07   j1mc    let us know when you're done.  we'll give you a few minutes.
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07:09   j1mc    hi maxamillion
07:09   maxamillion     sorry i am late
07:10   j1mc    np, cody is editing the agenda on the wiki
07:10   maxamillion     good stuff
07:10   j1mc    he'll let us know when he's done...
07:10   maxamillion     ok
07:11   somerville32    done
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07:11   maxamillion     grazie: !!! :) ... welcome to the meeting :) ... http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/898
07:12   j1mc    ok!
=== maxamillion checks the newly edited agenda
07:12   grazie  maxamillion: thanks...just being nosey
07:12   j1mc    grazie: agenda up at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
07:13   maxamillion     grazie: you should participate! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
07:13   maxamillion     lol
=== maxamillion was too slow
07:13   j1mc    i'm out at free geek chicago.  ping me when discussion about documentation comes up.  freddy martinez and i have a lot of ideas and such.
07:14   j1mc    i don't knw much about the help center.
07:14   maxamillion     awesome
07:14   maxamillion     wait .. the help center?
07:14   grazie  maxamillion:  not a slow as my new broadband(?) connection
07:14   grazie  j1mc: reading through now...
=== somerville32 doesn't know who added that to the agenda.
=== j1mc did
07:15   j1mc    do we want to use it?  didn't we get a working draft ready for feisty?
07:15   maxamillion     grazie: yeah, i am about to move into a new place in roughly 5 days and i am worried the broadband supplier there will be slow :/
07:15   maxamillion     j1mc: i think you are talking about the welcome center
07:15   somerville32    *centre
07:15   somerville32    <g>
=== j1mc goes to change wiki. is it still something we're interested in?
07:16   maxamillion     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Feisty/XubuntuWelcomeCenter
07:16   maxamillion     somerville32: tomato, tomato ....
07:16   somerville32    I question how useful it will be.
=== maxamillion thinks that applies better when he can verbally express each pronounciation
07:17   somerville32    The welcome centre is an interesting idea but it accomplish little more then documentation does.
07:17   j1mc    i think so, too
07:17   ongardie        it might get in the way if auto-started
07:17   maxamillion     somerville32: i think it would be exponentially useful, giving first time users a quick overview of the project, and empowering them with resources they need to be aware of in order to accomplish every day tasks
07:18   somerville32    aka - our documentation :P
07:18   maxamillion     ongardie: it would only auto-start on the first boot of a fresh install and has a check box to continue autostarting, but will always autostart on the liveCD
07:18   somerville32    Developing our own application is a lot of work and overheard.
07:18   maxamillion     somerville32: well, yes .. that and the wiki, the forums, etc.
07:19   maxamillion     somerville32: but 80% of our users never look at the documentation
07:19   ongardie        i don't think the app would have to be that complex, but you'd have to get good content **and** translate it
=== maxamillion didn't look at the documentation until he went to work on updating it
07:19   somerville32    Then maybe we should find out how we can make the documentation more visible and useful to users?
07:20   maxamillion     somerville32: put it in the welcome center :)
=== maxamillion really thinks the whole docbook thing is rather useless
07:20   j1mc    topic-based help is more useful than what we have in place now, though.
07:20   somerville32    Maybe we should looking at removing any gnome dependencies from yelp?
07:20   ongardie        maybe we can package the docs as html files and do the same thing as the welcome center, but with content we already have and through a browser that already exists
07:21   somerville32    ongardie, Thats what already happens with the documentation.
07:21   maxamillion     ongardie: yeah, the docs just pop up in firefox atm
07:21   ongardie        well, then we just need to make that more visible
07:21   somerville32    Firefox is rather "big".
07:21   j1mc    i think that removing the gnome deps from yelp could be useful.
07:21   maxamillion     somerville32: its about to get bigger
07:22   ongardie        i don't see how putting the docs in a python app will improve everything
07:22   somerville32    j1mc: Thats actually what I was thinking.
07:22   somerville32    ongardie, I think what we want to accomplish is showing some kind of welcome documentation at boot. Firefox is for sure too heavy to be auto-started.
07:22   j1mc    yelp looks an awful lot like the welcome center. :)
07:22   maxamillion     ongardie: the welcome center was tested on a 200mhz machine with 128mb of ram, the load time was trivial and using the app was snappy
=== somerville32 nods @ j1mc.
07:23   ongardie        i don't know about you guys, but let's be honest: I would never open the thing and i sure as hell don't want it opening itself
07:24   ongardie        a launcher on the desktop that opens a "heavy" application would suffice, in my opinion
07:24   maxamillion     ongardie: right, but after the first boot of a fresh installation, you can tell it to never open again
07:24   somerville32    I think adding a launcher would be a good first-step.
07:24   maxamillion     lets be honest, the current wave of linux users is helpless and they need things shoved in their face before they have a clue what's going on
07:25   ongardie        they are helpless when it comes to internals
07:25   ongardie        i honestly believe most people can figure out the desktop apps without help
=== somerville32 nods.
07:25   maxamillion     ongardie: i would hope so, that is all rather straight forward
07:25   somerville32    As long as we can get it all to work right out of the box :)
07:26   somerville32    Windows 98's welcome centre failed horribly.
07:26   somerville32    We should learn from it.
07:27   ongardie        what about windows XP's tour? they really made a mistake having that thing run without accelerated video drivers
07:27   ongardie        heh
07:27   somerville32    hehe
07:27   somerville32    I think we should ditch the welcome centre project.
07:27   somerville32    The other buntus do not have things auto-loading like that.
07:27   maxamillion     anyone seen Vista's automated garbage?
07:28   maxamillion     somerville32: no, but the ubuntu welcome center has been in the works for some time now
07:28   j1mc    maxamillion: you mean the whole OS vista?  :)
07:28   somerville32    maxamillion, And when it gets released, we can simply use that instead of developing our own.
07:28   maxamillion     j1mc: heh ... no joke, i am tired of fixing that OS at work
07:28   j1mc    somerville32: when what gets released?
07:28   maxamillion     somerville32: and all the annoying gnome dependencies that come with .....
07:28   maxamillion     j1mc: the ubuntu welcome center
07:29   ongardie        i think the welcome center effort would be better placed in 1) improving the docs, 2) making the docs easily available to new users
07:29   somerville32    It is easier to get rid of gnome dependencies then developing and maintaining our own software.
07:29   j1mc    1) would removing gnome deps from yelp be difficult? and . . .
07:29   j1mc    2) would yelp lead people to our docs?
07:29   maxamillion     j1mc: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWelcomeCentre
07:29   somerville32    ongardie, I concur.
07:30   ongardie        yelp depends on libbeagle? wtf
07:30   maxamillion     i think their idea is bloated and overbearing and will ultimately fail .... just as microsoft's ... but our idea is simple, its just some docs that answer the most commonly asked questions
07:30   maxamillion     ongardie: yeah, gnome apps are cool like that
07:30   ongardie        maxamillion: heh
07:30   somerville32    maxamillion, If you feel strongly about this project, you can continue to develop it, package it, and get it into Universe. It is pointless to debate this at this point when the thing isn't even ready to be included.
07:31   ongardie        yelp depends on firefox?
07:31   maxamillion     somerville32: agreed
07:31   maxamillion     ongardie: probably just on gecko
07:31   somerville32    ongardie, Most likely for the gecko engine.
07:31   maxamillion     :P
07:32   ongardie        oh right. i guess they still haven't properly separated the two
=== j1mc is glad to reach an agreement on that.
=== somerville32 declares the Welcome Centre dead.
07:32   ongardie        the next item on the agenda is a biggie: "7.10 Documentation roadmap"
07:32   somerville32    Woot woot! :)
07:32   j1mc    w00t!
07:32   maxamillion     bleh
07:32   j1mc    hehe
07:32   ongardie        heh
07:33   j1mc    i'm excited about creating topic-based help for xubuntu.
07:33   maxamillion     i can't stand writing docs, xml seems retarded to me
07:33   somerville32    Who were the individuals that were really interested in helping with documentation?
07:33   j1mc    me and freddie martinez
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07:33   somerville32    There was another fellow.
07:34   ongardie        (i'm going to eat lunch, but i'll be back)
=== _grazie is now known as grazie
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=== j1mc is not sure
07:34   vinze   Here I am :D
07:34   vinze   What's the current subject?
07:34   somerville32    Documentation
07:34   j1mc    hi vinze ... talking aboug docs
07:35   vinze   K
07:35   j1mc    somerville32: perhaps it was vincent?
07:35   somerville32    Ok, there seems to be an xubuntu-doc team
07:36   j1mc    who is in it?
=== maxamillion might be
07:36   maxamillion     yup, sure am
07:37   maxamillion     is there an editor i can use to exit the docs without having to traverse through xml?
=== maxamillion finds xml as annoying as html
07:37   somerville32    https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-doc
07:37   somerville32    maxamillion, Yes.
07:38   maxamillion     somerville32: awesome
07:38   maxamillion     what is it?
07:38   somerville32    There a few different ones. You'll need to refer to wiki docs
07:38   somerville32    As for documentation, wasn't there someone who agreed to head that up?
=== j1mc and freddie?
07:39   somerville32    Awesome! :)
07:39   somerville32    j1mc: Tell us what you have planned.
07:40   j1mc    yes, we are excited about this.  we're planning on having weekly in-person doc-hacking sessions this summer to completely update xubuntu-docs
07:40   j1mc    we plan to get things in line with topic-based help
07:40   j1mc    we are both part of the chicago-loco team, along with nixternal who does a ton of work for kubuntu docs
=== somerville32 nods.
07:41   somerville32    Any plans on updating the stylesheet?
07:41   j1mc    in terms of other specifics at the moment, we don't have much.
07:41   j1mc    hadn't thought to update the style sheet yet, but that would be a good idea.
07:41   j1mc    perhaps use some css from the soon-to-be updated xubuntu website?
07:42   j1mc    somehow?  /me is not a css expert
07:42   somerville32    I would speak with TheSheep.
07:42   vinze   It doesn't look too complicated
07:42   somerville32    but something more appealing would be nice.
07:42   j1mc    agreed.
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07:42   vinze   Yeah, it's kinda... Gray
=== somerville32 nods sadly.
07:43   somerville32    I think it would be wise to have an xubuntu-doc meeting
07:43   j1mc    somerville32: you reference "browser" in the meeting agenda.  care to elaborate?
07:43   somerville32    j1mc: Same thing as in discussion about the welcome centre.
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07:43   somerville32    Firefox is big and bloated.
07:44   somerville32    Having a light-weight doc browser would be useful, I think.
07:44   somerville32    Maybe work with upstream?
07:44   j1mc    with xfce folks?
=== somerville32 nods.
07:44   somerville32    Gnome and KDE both have their own documentation browsers.
07:44   j1mc    yelp is the one for gnome?
=== somerville32 nods.
07:45   j1mc    and you think that removing the gnome deps would be too difficult, and would rather get something from upstream?
=== j1mc is just trying to clarify...
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07:45   somerville32    j1mc: We'll have to investigate.
07:46   TheSheep        somerville32: wouldn't just a web browser be enough?
07:46   somerville32    TheSheep: Thats the question.
07:46   maxamillion     if we are looking at upstream, kalikiana is in the process of writing a lightweight GTK+ broswer in C using the webkit engine as opposed to gecko
07:47   TheSheep        there is a number of ready ones too, even including dillo
07:47   j1mc    maxamillion: thanks... where can we find info on that?
07:47   vinze   Wouldn't Gecko be a safe choice in terms of website compatibility?
07:47   maxamillion     don't know how far upstream it will be before a stable release results, but meh
07:47   somerville32    I think it would be good to have a chat with the ubuntu-doc team.
07:47   TheSheep        vinze: but we don;t need it for websites, and the documentation would be abviously tweaked for the browser
07:47   maxamillion     vinze: yes, but webkit is what the OS X safari browser runs on, its rather feature rich to be honest
07:47   vinze   Oh, you want a browser especially for docs...
07:47   maxamillion     oh ...
=== maxamillion was confused
07:48   ranf    dillo is fast a lightening but tends to get ugly sometimes.
07:49   j1mc    somerville32: what do you have in mind with chatting w/ the ubuntu-doc team
07:49   somerville32    I don't think installing another, lighter, web browser is a very appealing solution.
07:49   TheSheep        yelp uses gtkhtml2 and it's ok
07:50   somerville32    j1mc: I think that they'd be able to help answer the questions we have.
07:50   vinze   ranf, what do you mean by "getting ugly"?
07:50   j1mc    ok.
07:50   somerville32    I think the question at the moment is: Is a documentation browser other then Firefox appealing?
07:50   j1mc    will we still go with docbook.xml, though?  we're just concerned about presentation, right?  that's the only thing that seems to be up in the air...
07:51   vinze   But DocBook easily exports to other formats
07:51   somerville32    We're for sure not moving away from DocBook.
07:52   j1mc    i like the idea of having a separate app for documentation, if only because people open up a web browser and use it to start searching the web.
=== vinze agrees
07:52   vinze   (with somerville32)
=== j1mc just wanted to clarify that portion so that we could start writing... w/o concern for the final presentation.
07:52   vinze   I think you have a point j1mc but someone would need to take care of either removing gnome-deps from yelp or finding an alternative
07:53   maxamillion     j1mc: i agree with you on your point about the docs opening in the browser and being ignored because people want on the net
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07:53   TheSheep        more modern templates (using xhtml and css) would be nice
07:53   j1mc    TheSheep: yes, we agreed the current look is rather gray... :(
07:53   TheSheep        j1mc: I tried to make a style, but basciallly everything is hardcoded in the html
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07:54   maxamillion     joy
07:55   j1mc    TheSheep: yesss!  hardcoded into html is ... awesome.  :)
07:56   vinze   </sarcasm> I hope
07:56   maxamillion     awesome like a stroke
07:56   j1mc    yes... sarcasm.  :)
07:56   somerville32    You "compile" the docbook into html.
07:57   TheSheep        somerville32: yes, we just need to use different templates
07:57   j1mc    ... i'm sure that things will come up as we develop the new set of documentation, but we'll make the process as transparent as possible.
07:57   j1mc    and we have good resources with nixternal and others.
07:58   j1mc    i am confortable with the writing aspect, but... is there someone who would like to take on the application/presentation part?
=== blenderhead001 [n=blenderh@adsl-068-209-133-121.sip.jax.bellsouth.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
07:58   j1mc    ... would like to head that up?
=== maxamillion is scared to volunteer ...
07:59   j1mc    is it something we could push out to the mailing list to seek help with?
07:59   j1mc    ... if no one here wants to take it up now?
07:59   vinze   I'm afraid there won't be many volunteers
07:59   vinze   Nah
08:00   j1mc    hmmm... would it be a big problem to use yelp as-is, seeing as people don't open up the docs all that often?
=== somerville32 is on the phone.
08:01   j1mc    would the gnome deps be a big issue?
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08:01   gpocentek       yes
08:01   vinze   I think most people aren't even aware of the docs
08:02   j1mc    if it's going to be a big problem with getting a separate app, i say we just stick with having them in firefox for now.
08:02   vinze   Yeah I guess so
08:03   j1mc    maybe a nicer stylesheet will encourage people to use them.  :)
08:03   vinze   Yeah I hope so :D
08:03   vinze   Same goes for the default homepage
08:04   j1mc    ok.  let's go with that for now unless someone objects.  besides, our manpower could probably be put to better use in other areas that more users will appreciate.
08:05   vinze   Agreed
08:05   maxamillion     i am really having trouble finding anything classified as a docbook viewer other than yelp ...
08:06   maxamillion     i know it would be a pain, but anything think we should poll and see if the rest of the development community feels it worth while to remove yelp's gnome libs and make a yelp-gtk package in main?
08:06   gpocentek       it'll be a mess
08:06   vinze   Well, we'd need someone to step up and do it anyway
08:06   gpocentek       honnestly, going with firefox is IMO the best solution
08:08   maxamillion     gpocentek: my only issue with that, as j1mc stated, is that if the docs pop up in firefox i think majority of people would ignore them because they now have a browser infront of them and they will proceed to google or otherwise
08:08   j1mc    maxamillion: maybe we could set it up so that firefox launches a special instance w/o the navigation buttons, links toolbar, etc.  ...
08:08   maxamillion     j1mc: oooo, that's an idea
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08:08   TheSheep        now we need a xul programmer instead of a C programmer
08:09   maxamillion     lol
08:09   maxamillion     that will be harder to find
08:09   vinze   Wouldn't there be a special mode?
08:09   j1mc    freddy martinez (aka Admiral_Chicago) is also on the mozilla team.  i was thinking that there was a special mode or something.
08:09   j1mc    i'm sure we could at least find out.
08:09   vinze   Or perhaps do some "firefox --new-tab "javascript:popup" blabla
08:10   vinze   Or I guess without the "--new-tab"
08:10   j1mc    i'll check on that... it sounds like a good compromise if we don't need an xul developer (or whatever)
08:10   maxamillion     j1mc: we could make a 'documentation' profile under firefox and have the docs open firefox with that profile using some custom settings
08:11   j1mc    maxamillion: good idea.  again, i'll check into it with freddy.
08:11   maxamillion     okies
08:11   j1mc    :)  yeay!
08:11   maxamillion     brb
08:11   vinze   K
=== ranf expected more options from "firefox --help"
08:12   vinze   They're not all I think
08:12   j1mc    moving on to feature considerations, then?
08:12   vinze   Guess so
08:13   j1mc    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings (for those who joined late)
08:13   vinze   The Welcome Center
08:13   j1mc    ^^ our agenda
08:13   vinze   O wait
08:13   vinze   Sorry
08:13   vinze   Murrine
08:13   j1mc    did you add that to the agenda, vinze?
08:13   vinze   Erm, yes, think so
08:13   vinze   Mainly because we still didn't use Murrine for Feisty
08:14   j1mc    ok.  what are you thinking?  (btw, we have ~45 minutes left in the meeting)
08:14   vinze   Well... That we did use Murrine for Gutsy :P
08:14   j1mc    ok.  i know that jmak already had some theme ideas for gutsy, so you may want to talk with him early in the process.
08:15   vinze   Well, I suppose he has ideas for themes, but they just need to be implemented
08:15   vinze   I don't like his choices, but I think any Murrine-based theme is better than Clearlooks
08:16   j1mc    it would be good to see what he has in mind.  i think he was pushing for a murrine-based theme, but we just ran out of time last time.
08:16   vinze   Ah OK
08:16   vinze   Then I suppose we'll be able to make it for Gutsy
08:17   j1mc    any other comments on theme stuff?  i'd like to move on to stuff like network manager, games, etc.
08:17   vinze   Let's move on
08:17   j1mc    ok.  network manager.  :)  gnome's one works well in xubuntu's panel, but ... there's interest in removing the gnome libs and using for xubuntu.
08:18   ongardie        noooooooo!
08:18   j1mc    no?
08:18   j1mc    that was an emphatic no.
08:18   ongardie        heh, i think network manager is buggy
08:18   j1mc    somerville32 added it to the agenda ...  perhaps he'd like to say what he had in mind.
08:19   j1mc    somerville32: you there?  or still on the phone?
=== somerville32 is on the phone
08:19   ongardie        (http://spuriousinterrupt.org/projects/airconfig should be pretty cool once it's ready, though)
08:19   j1mc    somerville32: what do you need a phone for.  we have irc.  ;-)
=== j1mc goes to look at link
08:20   vinze   Well we *do* need WPA support ;)
08:20   vinze   Was that the project from an Xfce dev?
08:20   vinze   Anyway, if that's not ready yet I suppose it'll be more buggy than NM
08:21   ranf    vinze, Brian Tarricone
08:21   ongardie        vinze: yes, Brian Tarricone is writing airconfig
08:21   vinze   K
08:21   ongardie        vinze: good point. at this point, i bet it is buggier than NM
08:22   vinze   How about Wifi-radar?
08:22   vinze   http://wifi-radar.systemimager.org/
08:22   vinze   Though it doesn't look that user-friendly
08:22   j1mc    ongardie: i like how it is an xfce project, but there isn't even a release for it yet.  very bleeding edge.
08:23   Mithrandir      why not just write a gtk-only, xfce NM applet?  It shouldn't be that hard.
08:23   vinze   ongardie thinks it's buggy
08:23   vinze   I don't have that much experience
08:23   ongardie        it's not the front-end that i have a problem with
08:23   j1mc    ongardie: nm-applet hasn't given me any trouble.
08:23   vinze   It just doesn't work for you or something?
08:24   vinze   Because you could be an exception
08:24   ongardie        maybe it's just me and the people i've talked to
08:24   vinze   How many are they?
08:25   ongardie        me, my bro, the entirety of #xfce-dev
08:25   ongardie        and a couple guys from #ubuntu-houston, iirc
08:25   ongardie        but i think a better idea is to search the forums for problems
=== vinze searches ubuntuforums
08:26   ongardie        http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=hDV&q=networkmanager+problems+site%3Aubuntuforums.org&btnG=Search
08:26   nixternal       someone said my name? :)
08:26   vinze   Only 163 threads
08:26   Mithrandir      ongardie: that seems to just be the suspend/resume problem which we now have a fix for.
08:27   j1mc    nixternal: just referenced you in that you would be available to help freddie and i with docs
08:27   nixternal       roger
08:27   maxamillion     i think wifi-radar would be stellar if it offered some sort of wpa support
08:27   vinze   wifi-radar supports wpa
08:28   maxamillion     vinze: uh, it does?
08:28   vinze   At least, you have a WPA option
=== vinze installs wifi-radar
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08:29   ongardie        maxamillion: see the web site, 2nd screenshot. there is something about WPA
08:29   vinze   But it doesn't depend on wpasupplicant...
08:29   maxamillion     vinze: right, but click on the WPA option, just asks for what will supply the wpa functionality
08:29   j1mc    vinze: yeah... having to identify what driver to use for wpa isn't so good.
08:29   j1mc    for the end-user, anyway.
08:30   vinze   Ah, that sucks
=== maxamillion wonders if we could specify a WPA driver in the package of the program and then make the driver a dependency of the package
08:30   vinze   You need to tell explicitly which driver you'd need
08:30   ongardie        quick question: in xubuntu feisty, what tools are there?
08:30   vinze   Tools?
08:30   maxamillion     the advanced user who wants to use something other than a pre-select will do so if there is a pre select or not
08:30   ongardie        for managing the network connections
08:30   vinze   network-admin
08:31   vinze   And a panel plugin
08:31   ongardie        vinze: gnome's network-admin?
08:31   vinze   Yeah but with gnome dependencies removed
08:31   ongardie        i see
08:31   maxamillion     vinze: what planel plugin?
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08:32   ongardie        maxamillion: will one driver work for everyone?
08:32   vinze   "Network Monitor"
08:32   vinze   maxamillion, but that's just seeing if it's active
08:32   ongardie        vinze: "Network Monitor" doesn't let you configure anything though
08:32   ongardie        right
08:32   vinze   No no configuration
08:32   j1mc    i like the idea of using airconfig, but don't think it's ready.  in it's absence, i think it would be best to use nm-applet, and see if someone can remove the gnome-deps.
08:32   maxamillion     ongardie: probably not, but we could pre-select the best supported
08:33   maxamillion     ongardie: and then make a reference to alternatives in the docs
08:33   j1mc    someone == jani  :)  ??
08:33   vinze   maxamillion, best supported, wouldn't that mean "works for about 10%"?
08:33   vinze   I think once Gutsy there we'll still be using network-admin... ;-)
08:34   j1mc    i think it would be worthwhile for us to install airconfig onto our test systems, and report bugs up through the xfce-bugzilla, too.
08:34   maxamillion     vinze: not entirely .... a wpa driver to my knowledge is just software and shouldn't matter what wifi card people have
08:34   vinze   maxamillion, ah, OK
08:34   maxamillion     j1mc: i will work on that with my laptop from work ... hopefully we can help along the airconfig project to be stable asap
08:35   j1mc    cool, maxamillion.  i'll do the same.
=== vinze too
08:35   ongardie        we certainly can't depend on airconfig stabilizing and being perfect before gutsy, though
08:35   vinze   No I don't think so too
08:35   j1mc    i think that nm-applet probably our second-best optiont, though.
08:36   maxamillion     ongardie: no, of course not ... this is more of an upstream goal
08:36   vinze   And if someone's to remove gnome deps from NM anyway, I guess it'd be a waste to switch to an alternative for Gutsy+1
08:36   ongardie        so, realistically then, will it be network-admin, NetworkManager, or wifi-radar for gutsy?
08:36   maxamillion     j1mc: but nm-applet is bloated and i think we would get a substantial amount of negative feedback because of its resource intensive nature
08:37   vinze   Yeah and it'd be a lot of work, so I guess network-admin
08:37   maxamillion     ongardie: more likely than not, yes .... they really seem to be the most capable alternatives
08:37   j1mc    maxamillion: maybe, but how many people are connecting via wireless w/ a PII laptop?
08:37   ongardie        i do know of someone that was working on an xfce panel plugin that would be a front-end to NetworkManager
08:37   vinze   That'd be cool
08:37   ongardie        but the xfce devs discouraged him because they all hate networkmanager
08:37   ongardie        lol
08:37   j1mc    i say we table this for now and continue it on the mailing list...
08:37   maxamillion     j1mc: just because they aren't connecting wireless doesn't mean nm-applet isn't running on thier system and eating resources
08:38   maxamillion     ok
08:38   vinze   So... On to games?
08:38   maxamillion     i assume so
08:38   j1mc    we have 20 minutes left... :)
08:38   maxamillion     pySol has my vote!
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08:39   vinze   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Feisty/xubuntu-gaming
08:39   vinze   I don't really like that "Shooters" list ;)
08:39   vinze   Shipping Nexuiz just doesn't sound like a good idea :P
08:40   maxamillion     vinze: no no, these were just ideas thrown out on the mailing list
=== somerville32 is back.
08:40   maxamillion     wb somerville32
08:40   vinze   Hey Cody
08:40   ongardie        is the idea to create something like gnome-games?
08:41   maxamillion     i think Xjump, pySol, SuperTux, and FrozenBubble would make a solid game set
08:41   maxamillion     ongardie: no, i think its just to include a set of games for xubuntu users to enjoy
08:41   vinze   I think we should go for some Puzzle, Arcade and Board/Card games
08:41   maxamillion     ongardie: just make a meta package called "xubuntu-games" that will pull the agreed upon set of games
08:41   ongardie        maxamillion: unfortunately, supertux-data is 53 megs
08:42   vinze   Too bad
08:42   vinze   Supertux is cool
08:42   ongardie        yeah, i like supertux too :(
08:42   Burgundavia     I would stick with non-fullscreen stuff, from a marketing and branding perspective
08:42   vinze   Agreef
08:42   vinze   *Agreed
08:42   TheSheep        I don't really think the xubuntu's target audience would need games other than the ones they install themselves...
08:42   maxamillion     ongardie: ah, didn't know that
08:43   vinze   Who's Xubuntu's target audience?
08:43   TheSheep        vinze: they guys that come to #xubuntu :)
08:43   TheSheep        and gals
08:43   maxamillion     TheSheep: i think something like pySol would be nice though .... everyone needs a little solitare :)
08:43   vinze   TheSheep,  Oh, no wonder there's no Xubuntu option at ShipIt... :P
08:44   TheSheep        vinze: yes
08:44   vinze   maxamillion, I think so too
08:44   vinze   I recall aisleriot was cool, had loads of card games :P
08:44   vinze   But just Solitaire'll do too
08:44   j1mc    would a meta-package that is not included in the default install work?
=== ongardie points out that pysol looks ugly
=== vinze checks
08:45   ongardie        gtk 1.x?
08:45   maxamillion     j1mc: it would be included into the install
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08:45   maxamillion     ongardie: i believe so, yes ... :/
08:45   vinze   Then I don't think it's an option...
08:46   maxamillion     fair enough
=== vinze can't install airdonfig
08:46   vinze   checking for X... no
08:46   vinze   configure: error: X Window system libraries and header files are required
08:46   ongardie        (the latest version of pysol is from 2003)
08:46   vinze   O wait...
08:47   maxamillion     heh ... we could always throw in gtetrinet :P
08:47   vinze   http://linuxappfinder.com/games/cards
08:47   j1mc    if it's ok... maybe we could set up a wiki page like we did with artwork, where people could list the details of each game they'd like to be included, and we could vote.
08:47   j1mc    it's a low priority, imho
08:47   ongardie        j1mc: that sounds like a good plan to me
08:47   vinze   +1
08:47   maxamillion     k
08:48   j1mc    maxamillion: would you like to do that?
08:48   j1mc    or, would someone else like to set it up, at least the initial stuff?
08:49   maxamillion     it just seems like everytime we try to organize people around the idea of the games topic it ends in chaos and cody and i sort through the remains (which is where the current wiki page came from)
08:49   j1mc    oh, sorry maxamillion ...
08:49   j1mc    guess i didn't see/consider the current games spec wiki
08:49   somerville32    Jani made a comment on the lp spec page.
08:50   vinze   *5 minutes for notification-daemon and smb*
08:50   vinze   But who would be removing gnome-games' gnome-deps?
08:51   maxamillion     i dunno ... the whole games idea might just deserve to be trashed, i think we should focus more on smb support and not bother with games .... we don't want to spread our already limited resources (in terms of man-power) too thin
08:51   somerville32    vinze: I would be interested in doing that
08:51   vinze   somerville32, that'd be really awesome
08:51   vinze   Doesn't that solve our problem?
=== somerville32 nods.
08:51   ongardie        what's the notification daemon idea?
08:52   vinze   To include it?
=== somerville32 nods.
08:52   vinze   Who added it?
=== somerville32 raises his hand.
08:52   gpocentek       notification-daemon is already a dep of xubuntu-desktop
08:52   vinze   Is it?
08:52   mr_pouit        ^^
08:52   vinze   It wasn't installed for me
08:52   vinze   But I went with a Herd
08:53   ongardie        gpocentek: it's under Recommends, actually
08:53   somerville32    gpocentek, So you can use libnotify and what not to get those pop-ups?
08:53   gpocentek       ongardie: yes, but installed with a fresh install
08:53   TheSheep        there is also the xfce-notification-daemon
08:53   TheSheep        which doesn;t depend on gconf
08:53   ongardie        TheSheep: is it packaged?
08:53   gpocentek       we use gconf anyway, and don't want duplication
08:54   vinze   I think we should go with the original one
08:54   vinze   As Jani said, the deps are few and it's already packaged and maintained
08:54   TheSheep        vinze: otiginal gnome or original xfce? ;)
08:54   vinze   TheSheep, gnome
08:55   vinze   So will it be moved to "Depends" for Gutsy?
08:55   maxamillion     nothing like an xfce based distro sticking with gnome alternatives when a xfce solution exists ....
08:55   vinze   Well, if it's not packages
08:55   ongardie        i'd like to see notification-daemon-xfce at least packaged
08:55   vinze   And if we already use the gnome deps it has
08:55   gpocentek       ongardie: go ahead, package it
08:56   maxamillion     ongardie: we will get together later about that, i might package it sometime this week
08:56   TheSheep        I think it's not packaged because it din't compile at some point with recent tools
08:56   ongardie        gpocentek: i'd be happy to package that (and the places plugin)
08:56   gpocentek       places-plugin is in NEW already
08:56   mr_pouit        places-lugin is already in new
08:56   mr_pouit        *g*
08:56   ongardie        gpocentek: i just don't know how
08:56   ongardie        what's NEW?
08:56   gpocentek       mr_pouit: you're really slow tonight :p
08:56   maxamillion     ongardie: isn't the places plugin auto-packaged in the xfce-goodies package now?
08:57   ongardie        maxamillion: isn't xfce-goodies just a metapackage?
08:57   vinze   What's the places plugin?
08:57   ongardie        vinze: like gnome's places menu. i'm the author
08:57   maxamillion     ongardie: uhmmm.... actually, it might be now that you mention it
08:57   vinze   Nice
=== somerville32 hates the phone.
08:57   vinze   :P
08:58   TheSheep        ongardie: I love you!
08:58   ongardie        TheSheep: haha, <3
08:58   j1mc    2 minutes to discuss smb shares.  no problem  :)
08:58   vinze   Where do I get it?
08:58   ongardie        vinze: http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/panel-plugins/xfce4-places-plugin
08:59   maxamillion     ongardie: yeah, appears to be a meta package
=== TheSheep drools
08:59   ongardie        do we really just have 2 minutes left?
08:59   maxamillion     j1mc: we have all day in xubuntu-devel :)
08:59   j1mc    maxamillion: right.  :)
08:59   vinze   ongardie, is it packaged somewhere?
08:59   ongardie        vinze: gpocentek just said it is in NEW, but i don't know what that means
08:59   vinze   Me neither
09:00   ongardie        should we move the meeting #xubuntu-devel?
09:00   maxamillion     yes, i believe so
09:00   ongardie        will anyone be using this channel anyway?
09:00   vinze   Who keeps the logs?
09:00   gpocentek       ongardie: packaged and waiting to be approved by an archive admin
09:00   mr_pouit        in new = needs to be approved by an archive admin
09:00   ongardie        mr_pouit: ty
09:00   ongardie        gpocentek: ty too, heh
09:00   gpocentek       :)
09:01   vinze   Is there noone keeping the logs?
09:01   ongardie        i think we have 2 days until there's another meeting in here. we're probably OK to stay
09:01   somerville32    We can continue to chat here if there isn't a meeting scheduled.
09:01   vinze   O OK
09:01   vinze   Let's stay
09:02   ongardie        vinze: (i log everything personally)
09:02   vinze   Have we agreed on something concerning notification daemon?
09:02   vinze   ongardie, OK
09:02   ongardie        maxamillion: so you're willing to help me with packaging notification-daemon-xfce?
09:03   vinze   I'm still planning on learning packaging, is there any app that has priority that I could get my hands on?
09:03   somerville32    Everything is important :]
09:04   vinze   Random suggestion?
=== somerville32 is still on the stupid phone.
09:04   maxamillion     ongardie: sure
09:04   ongardie        maxamillion: ok, then how can we get it in the repos?
09:04   maxamillion     ongardie: we will have to ask for a sponsor to post it, i will contact jani about that because i think it needs to be in main and only core-devs have access to main
09:05   ongardie        k
09:05   ongardie        moving on?
09:05   vinze   Think so
09:05   vinze   Network Shares
09:05   gpocentek       xfce-n-d won't get into main IMO
09:05   gpocentek       there's no reason to have it along with n-d
09:06   ongardie        why would it need to go in main?
09:07   gpocentek       to be part of xubuntu-desktop it needs to be in main
09:07   ongardie        oh, that's not necessarily my goal
09:07   ongardie        i just think it should be packaged
09:07   maxamillion     ongardie: its not?
09:07   maxamillion     ongardie: oh...
09:07   gpocentek       ok :)
09:07   gpocentek       /me away, see you
09:07   vinze   What's the reason you want xfce-n-d?
09:07   vinze   Bye
09:08   ongardie        vinze: because 1) someone took the time to write it, and 2) maybe it'll respect xfwm4's margins
09:08   vinze   Doesn't the normal n-d do that?
09:09   maxamillion     ongardie: why not attempt to get it into xubuntu-desktop though? ... if we are going to go through the trouble of packaging it, why not try and make sure someone actually uses it?
=== vinze was wondering too
09:09   ongardie        maxamillion: i've never even used it, i can't argue for that now
09:09   ongardie        vinze: shrug
09:09   maxamillion     ahhhh, makes sense
09:09   maxamillion     can't endorse something blindly, i can understand that
=== vinze is going
09:10   maxamillion     ongardie: well, we can package it and use it and see if it would be worth our time
09:10   vinze   Laters
09:10   maxamillion     laters vinze
09:10   ongardie        maybe i'm underestimating how hard it'll be to package it, though
09:11   maxamillion     ongardie: packaging isn't generally hard, just time consuming ... but i am not familiar with xfce-n-d so we will have to look into it further, it might end up being a pain
09:11   TheSheep        ongardie: last time I looked it required patching of the makefile
09:11   maxamillion     ah yes ... possible pain
09:11   TheSheep        maxamillion: it's similar to n-d, really, only has the xfce-like settings dialog and looks a little more square
09:12   TheSheep        maxamillion: the n-d requires you to mess with gconf to configure it
09:12   maxamillion     gconf fails at life
09:12   ongardie        haha
09:12   j1mc    hehe
09:12   TheSheep        maxamillion: and makes gconf run in the background
09:12   maxamillion     reminds me too much of ms windows registry
09:12   j1mc    maxamillion: yeah...
09:13   maxamillion     ok, on the smb
09:13   maxamillion     on to*
09:13   TheSheep        if you don't run gaim and n-d, you don't need gconf running in xubuntu, as of today
=== j1mc unplugs somerville32's phone.
09:13   maxamillion     lol
09:14   somerville32    j1mc: Cell phone :(
09:14   somerville32    And he has been talking to me for over an hour
09:14   maxamillion     TheSheep: interesting .... if i could only get my jabber portal to work right i could ditch gaim/pidgin all together
=== somerville32 snores.
=== j1mc removes somerville32's sim card
09:14   j1mc    and battery
09:14   maxamillion     :P
09:14   somerville32    lol
09:14   ongardie        really onto SMB?
09:14   somerville32    k
=== maxamillion hopes so
09:15   ongardie        what's the idea with SMB?
09:15   somerville32    We need a browser :]
09:15   TheSheep        fuse?
09:15   ongardie        the #xfce-dev guys seem to think fuse is the right idea
09:15   TheSheep        why not just mount a fusesmb directory in media by default?
09:15   maxamillion     i would actually like to write a smb plugin for thunar, but i don't think that is going to be something to just be thrown together for the release ... i think it will take some planning
09:16   ongardie        TheSheep: what can you do with a fusesmb directory?
09:16   maxamillion     TheSheep: not a bad idea, and just have the directory populated as smb shares are browsed?
=== blenderhead001 [n=blenderh@adsl-068-209-133-121.sip.jax.bellsouth.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
09:17   ongardie        "It works like smbfs, but instead of accessing one share at a time, all computers and workgroups are accessible at once from a single filesystem mount, making network browsing just as easy as it is on Windows."
09:17   j1mc    i wish i had it in front of me, but i know that there were other options other than fusesmb that were mentioned during ubuntu open week.
09:17   ongardie        has anyone here used fusesmb?
09:17   maxamillion     i have
=== j1mc has
09:18   maxamillion     it wasn't entirely a plesant experience
=== j1mc agrees
09:18   ongardie        what was the issue?
09:18   maxamillion     but i think we could remedy that with a front end or otherwise
09:18   maxamillion     ongardie: just not very user friendly
09:19   j1mc    also, it may have been how i configured samba, but accessing password protected smb shares wasn't possible through fusesmb.
09:19   ongardie        i wonder why fusesmb hasn't had a release for the last year
09:19   maxamillion     j1mc: that was the issue i was having as well
09:19   j1mc    i'm not a total expert, so don't take that as law or anything, though.
09:20   maxamillion     j1mc: i could access the smb share i made on a spare machine in the office to test it, but i couldn't access the password protected share on the production server
09:20   maxamillion     ongardie: that'a good question
09:21   j1mc    what about gvfs?
09:21   j1mc    don't know much about it, but it was mentioned during ubuntu open week.
09:22   ongardie        is SMB really the only issue? maybe we should go one step higher and have a front-end to manage any fuse filesystem?
09:22   j1mc    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekfeisty/xubuntu  (search for gvfs)
09:42   maxamillion     ongardie: it could be an interesting project
=== j1mc wonders how somerville32 is able to talk on his cell phone when it has no battery or sim card.
09:42   ongardie        would gvfs require applications to do anything?
09:42   TheSheep        ongardie: isn't it just an alternative to gnome-vfs
09:42   ongardie        TheSheep: this is the first i've heard of it, i'm reading a bit now
09:42   maxamillion     TheSheep: i think it is going to replace gnome-vfs ... it appears it was a topic of conversation at a recent gnome-con
09:42   ongardie        but if we need to modify all applications, there's no f'in way
09:42   j1mc    ongardie: hehe
09:42   ongardie        (and then there's openoffice, etc)
09:42   j1mc    i don't know much about it, either.
09:42   maxamillion     TheSheep: errr... actually, it will be talked about at guadec in 3 weeks
09:42   maxamillion     TheSheep: http://guadec.org/node/520
09:42   j1mc    it got mentioned by at least two people during ubuntu open week - even in refernce to xubuntu, so it would be worth researching.
09:42   maxamillion     it appears there would be needed modification per application, at least that is the impression i am getting from it all
09:42   j1mc    http://www.nabble.com/gnomevfs-homepage-t3248187.html  hehe
09:42   j1mc    "and noticed that
09:42   j1mc    gnomevfs has no homepage. I belive it should have atleas a simple one..."
09:42   maxamillion     lol
09:42   ongardie        what i like about fuse: 1) i'm assuming it's stable by now, 2) the apps don't need to know about it, 3) FUSE works with tons of "filesystems"
09:42   TheSheep        it would be nice to have a simple program or panel plugin that would take an url and mount it as apropriate fuse filesystem :)
09:42   mjg59   The model is that gvfs will functionally replace gnome-vfs and continue to support functionality that's difficult with pure posix (like async i/o). There'll be a fuse module layered on top of it in order to allow non-gvfs aware applications to use the same filenames.
09:42   TheSheep        maxamillion: so it's fuse anyways
09:42   j1mc    pyneighborhood?
09:42   j1mc    mjg59: thanks...
09:42   TheSheep        j1mc: ah, right
09:42   mjg59   The problem with purely using fuse is that you have difficulty dealing with certain filesystem types (like network filesystems)
09:42   ongardie        mjg59: wasn't fuse largely designed for network filesystems?
09:42   mjg59   ongardie: Yes, it's fine from the filesystem perspective, but it's difficult from a usable application perspective
09:42   TheSheep        ongardie: but the apps will not know it's a network filesystem, and, for example, generate thumbnails for moves
09:42   TheSheep        movies
09:42   TheSheep        ongardie: which isn't such a good idea imho...
=== somerville32 tries to focus as he listens to this person he doesn't even know ramble on about his life story and all his problems. :(
09:42   ongardie        TheSheep: perhaps we can modify Thunar to not do that
=== TheSheep rolls eyes
09:42   mjg59   You don't want an application to block just because you're having to suck this file in from the network
09:42   TheSheep        somerville32: put the phone in a fish tank :)
09:42   mjg59   So you need some way of doing async i/o
09:42   ongardie        mjg59: i'll have to read more about that
09:42   ongardie        in any case, gvfs doesn't sound like its ready
09:42   j1mc    all, i have to go...  :(
09:42   ranf    bye j1mc
09:42   maxamillion     laters j1mc
09:42   j1mc    thanks for all of your help.  i'll be in touch soon.
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09:42   ongardie        j1mc: peace
09:42   ongardie        doh!
09:42   maxamillion     i think the real question is, do we really want to put together a large scale development project using fuse if in the end it has i/o issues anyways and becomes un-usable?
=== somerville32 is now free.
09:42   ongardie        maxamillion: no, i wouldn't think so
09:42   TheSheep        maxamillion: large scale?
09:42   ongardie        maxamillion: the project could be fairly contained, but I/O issues would be a showstopper
09:42   TheSheep        we need a networked filesystem with discovery, it doesn't have to be samba, but people come and ask "how do I open network?"
09:42   TheSheep        it could as well be zeroconf+scp :)
09:42   maxamillion     TheSheep: well ... i would think making something capable of mounting many different filesystems would be dificult, but then again i am not entirely familiar with all of fuse's capabilities
09:42   TheSheep        there is an avahi browser
09:42   TheSheep        maxamillion: fuse gives you a standard interface to all of them, basically
09:42   maxamillion     TheSheep: oh ... ok
09:42   maxamillion     TheSheep: yeah, then i guess that wouldn't be too terribly hard
09:42   maxamillion     TheSheep: are you familiar with the "mount devices" plugin for xfce?
09:42   ongardie        maxamillion: doesn't it require you modify /etc/fstab?
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=== maxamillion would prefer a thunar plugin but can't find docs on the API
(ongardie/#ubuntu-meeting) i think we're probably capable of writing a FUSE front-end. as maxamillion was saying, though, it wouldn't be worth it if there are I/O issues
09:47   ongardie        maxamillion: i wonder if thunar plugins use thunarx: http://www.xfce.org/documentation/4.4/api/thunarx/
09:47   maxamillion     yeah ... i think we would need to first look into if the i/o issues would really create a problem and if so, is there any way to get around the problems
09:47   TheSheep        ongardie: once gvfs is in place, we can just replace it
09:47   maxamillion     ongardie: hmmm...
09:47   maxamillion     TheSheep: true
09:47   TheSheep        on still use fuse+gvfs for the other applications
09:48   maxamillion     brb
09:48   ongardie        this is starting to sound like a plan
09:49   ongardie        maxamillion: yes, at least the media tags plugin uses thunarx
09:50   ongardie        mjg59: do you know of any pages with information about the async I/O stuff?
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09:52   mjg59   http://developer.gnome.org/doc/API/gnome-vfs/gnome-vfs-gnome-vfs-module-callback.html covers the API
09:54   ongardie        mjg59: that's not quite what i was looking for. i meant conceptually
09:54   maxamillion     ongardie: this really sounds like something i would be interested in helping with development if it is decided to be done, but for now i need to go ... i will probably be back later
09:54   ongardie        we're losing a lot of people
09:54   maxamillion     :(
09:54   maxamillion     well ... we are an hour past the meeting time
09:54   ongardie        should we just continue this on the mailing list?
09:54   maxamillion     probably should
09:54   mjg59   ongardie: I'm not really sure what you mean
09:55   maxamillion     i need to go, have to go take care of some stuff ... i am about to move in 5 days
09:55   maxamillion     laters
09:56   ongardie        mjg59: "You don't want an application to block just because you're having to suck this file in from the network"
09:56   ongardie        with async I/O, would the app instead show a progress bar?
09:56   mjg59   ongardie: For instance
09:59   ongardie        mjg59: is it a problem even with small files?
09:59   mjg59   It really depends on the nature of the application and the filesystem
10:00   ongardie        i see
10:02   somerville32    Interesting.
10:02   ongardie        i don't know who is left here, but shall we conclude?
10:03   ongardie        somerville32: yes?
10:03   somerville32    What is the consensus?
10:03   TheSheep        um...
10:03   ongardie        to continue the discussion on the mailing list, i think
10:04   ongardie        i'd like to actually use FUSE for a while to get a feel for the issues mjg59 was referring to
10:04   ongardie        but between maxamillion and i (and did i see some interest from TheSheep?), we might want to write a FUSE front-end
10:05   ongardie        (and i think it'd be quite welcome in the xfce goodies)
10:06   ongardie        is this the end?
10:07   TheSheep        somerville32: ?
10:07   somerville32    This is only the beginning, my friends ;]
10:07   ongardie        heh
10:07   ongardie        peace
10:07   TheSheep        somerville32: comrades
10:07   somerville32    Yes.

MeetingLogs/Xubuntu_2007-05-20 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:23:46 by localhost)