Xubuntu_2009-07-11
[16:59] <SiDi> cody-somerville: heya ? [17:02] <SiDi> knome: we're waiting for you then D: [17:02] <knome> ok, give me a few minutes :) [17:03] <SiDi> do you know how to use the meeting bot ? :p [17:03] <knome> yeo, [17:03] <knome> #startmeeting [17:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:03. The chair is knome. [17:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [17:03] <knome> okay, let's start [17:04] <ScottK> Can I just toss something in before I have to run? [17:04] <knome> sure. :)? [17:05] <cody-somerville> Hi [17:05] <knome> hello cody [17:05] <ScottK> We had a conversation yesterday in #ubuntu-x about the dontzap package. It's not needed for Ubuntu/Kubuntu since upstream provides a GUI for the change. We didn't think Xubuntu needed it either, but I thought I mention it. [17:05] <SiDi> Heya cody-somerville [17:05] <vinnl> Hi [17:05] <vinnl> I'll be gone in ten minutes or so, dinner, and return after that :) [17:05] <ScottK> dontzap is currently not working in karmic anyway, so the intent is to just remove it. [17:05] <knome> okay [17:05] <SiDi> ScottK: its the package that allows reenabling Ctrl+Alt+Backspace ? [17:05] <ScottK> SiDi: Yes. [17:05] <knome> ok, thanks ScottK :) [17:05] <charlie-tca> No problem here with that [17:06] <SiDi> ScottK: err, then we have to modify xorg.conf on our own ? :/ [17:06] <knome> is there somebody who volunteers putting the minutes online? i can send the mootbot log once we're finished. [17:06] <ScottK> SiDi: No. Apparently there's a lib that supports this that xfce uses too. [17:07] <SiDi> ScottK: i think this should be confirmed with xfce devs. i've never seen a gui for that thing [17:07] <ScottK> It's xklavier that they were mentioning [17:07] <charlie-tca> SiDi: but you can still enable it with xorg, right [17:08] <charlie-tca> ? [17:08] <ScottK> You've now exhausted my knowledge of the topic. [17:08] <ScottK> I think actually you can't do it in xorg anymore. [17:08] <ScottK> You have to use xklavier or whatever. [17:08] <SiDi> it can be done with xorg indeed charlie-tca, but dontzap is more typo-proof :) [17:08] <SiDi> oh [17:08] <SiDi> hey ochosi [17:08] <ochosi> hey everyone [17:09] <ochosi> sorry for being late [17:09] <knome> no problem [17:09] <knome> we were just starting [17:09] <ochosi> ok, good [17:09] <ScottK> SiDi: If I understand the discussion in #ubuntu-x yesterday, I think xorg doesn't work anymore in Karmic. [17:09] <SiDi> ScottK: ok then maybe we should keep dontzap :D [17:09] <ScottK> SiDi: I'd talk to tseliot about it. [17:09] <knome> i think we have to investigate this anyway [17:09] <SiDi> ScottK: thanks [17:09] <charlie-tca> SiDi: then the question also has to be asked, who will maintain it? [17:10] <SiDi> does it need to be maintained ? :/ [17:10] <knome> SiDi, are you willing to investigate further? [17:10] <charlie-tca> Will it be useable as other stuff changes ? [17:11] <charlie-tca> If we want it kept, any bugs filed will have to be fixed by us, won't they? [17:11] <SiDi> knome: as long as it doesnt involve coding / packaging it should be ok [17:11] <knome> okay [17:11] <cody-somerville> Anyhow [17:11] <knome> [ACT] SiDi investigates the dontzap/xklavier/xorg... stuff [17:11] <knome> oops [17:12] <knome> [ACTION] SiDi investigates the dontzap/xklavier/xorg... stuff [17:12] <MootBot> ACTION received: SiDi investigates the dontzap/xklavier/xorg... stuff [17:12] <cody-somerville> Lets move forward with the agenda [17:12] <knome> cody-somerville, i started the meeting as you didn't show up early enough. :) [17:12] <cody-somerville> I can't stay too long [17:12] <knome> [TOPIC] Review last meetings action items [17:12] <MootBot> New Topic: Review last meetings action items [17:12] <vinnl> Dinner, if I'm needed for anything please push it to the back of the agenda :P [17:12] <knome> [TOPIC] .. Team reports [17:12] <MootBot> New Topic: .. Team reports [17:13] <knome> has everyone updated the team reports? :) [17:13] <cody-somerville> I forgot. I'll do my part later today [17:13] <knome> okay [17:13] <charlie-tca> not really [17:13] <knome> [ACTION] Everybody UPDATE TEAM REPORTS. [17:13] <MootBot> ACTION received: Everybody UPDATE TEAM REPORTS. [17:14] <SiDi> What is a team report ? :| [17:14] <knome> [TOPIC] .. Documentation and artwork for documentation [17:14] <MootBot> New Topic: .. Documentation and artwork for documentation [17:14] <cody-somerville> SiDi, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports [17:15] <knome> j1mc doesn't seem to be available [17:15] <knome> there's not much progress [17:15] <knome> so let's move on [17:15] <knome> [TOPIC] .. Testing wiki pages [17:15] <MootBot> New Topic: .. Testing wiki pages [17:16] <knome> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short [17:16] <MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short [17:16] <knome> charlie-tca, how are they coming along? [17:16] <charlie-tca> ouch [17:16] <charlie-tca> forgot to do that [17:16] <knome> the action item: # [17:16] <knome> * [17:16] <knome> the action item: Charlie to work on the Testing wiki pages and split them to be shorter and readable. (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/TestingInfo/Short) [17:16] <knome> no problem. [17:16] <knome> :) [17:16] <charlie-tca> Yeah, I will have to work that one [17:16] <knome> [ACTION] charlie-tca continues the quest to find time to do stuff [17:16] <MootBot> ACTION received: charlie-tca continues the quest to find time to do stuff [17:16] <knome> [TOPIC] .. Shipping Xubuntu CDs [17:16] <MootBot> New Topic: .. Shipping Xubuntu CDs [17:16] <knome> is there anything to this? [17:17] <charlie-tca> I thought we beat that to death [17:17] <SiDi> We lack funds for this. [17:17] <knome> okay. [17:17] <charlie-tca> We can't ship privately due to customs and international laws [17:17] <knome> okay :) [17:17] <charlie-tca> We can ship in our own countries, though [17:17] <knome> okay [17:17] <knome> so there's *no* way to ship internationally? [17:17] <knome> not even single discs? [17:18] <knome> not even randomly? [17:18] <knome> :) [17:18] <SiDi> We can use relays nationally (locos / xubuntu community / whatever) [17:18] <ochosi> where'd the funds come from for this? [17:18] <SiDi> but still, printing the CDs is costy [17:18] <knome> ochosi, personal funding. [17:18] <SiDi> ochosi: from us i suppose [17:18] <charlie-tca> If you can deal with the customs and the ability to insure the disc is not drm/viruses/malware/etc [17:18] <knome> SiDi, a *CD* is a lot for somebody [17:18] <knome> not everybody can download the iso and burn it [17:18] <knome> it doesn't need to be "official" [17:18] <SiDi> i know that [17:19] <ochosi> but knome, if people are unable to download and burn an iso, will they be able to online order a cd? [17:19] <charlie-tca> ochosi: canonical sponsors shipit service for Ubuntu and Kubuntu cd's [17:19] <SiDi> Well, if we burn them ourselves they're gonna have to be error-proof [17:19] <knome> charlie-tca, i suppose that sending from states is as easy as filling a green customs sticker :) [17:19] <knome> ochosi, NO, they are not. [17:19] <knome> ochosi, that's why we are discussing. [17:19] <charlie-tca> no, it isn't, Knightlust [17:19] <charlie-tca> knome [17:19] <knome> charlie-tca, right... [17:19] <ochosi> knome, ok [17:19] <SiDi> it's easier to get some CD in each LUG but again people wont go to LUGs [17:19] <knome> charlie-tca, well at least i have no problems in shipping to EU countries. [17:19] <charlie-tca> I looked into it, and can't actually provide all the **P*J: they want [17:19] <SiDi> so we still could ship them in walmart but i doubt they let us do ! [17:20] <knome> it's just a cd... :) [17:20] <knome> it's not that many people *really* need the cd [17:20] <charlie-tca> It is the government [17:20] <knome> about 1-2 per month maybe [17:20] <ochosi> knome, i see now, i thought this was only about shipping in your own country or the eu [17:20] <SiDi> But many people will order them knome [17:20] <knome> SiDi, we're not opening an *ordering* page === clive is now known as Guest78263 [17:21] <knome> if somebody really needs the cd, they come asking for it [17:21] <charlie-tca> Got a lot of forms to file here to prove it is safe and allowed [17:21] <SiDi> then how do you want people to know they can order CD s ? [17:21] <knome> and maybe we can ship on to them [17:21] <charlie-tca> They can not order a cd for xubuntu, SiDi [17:21] <knome> SiDi, they have to undestand they have to ask. [17:21] <knome> SiDi, i've seen a few people almost *crying* for a cd [17:21] <SiDi> ok so you'd advertise the possibility to negociate an officious CD on irc ? [17:21] <ochosi> so you want to put some kind of message on xubuntu.org saying: if you're in real trouble donwloading/burning the image, contact us, we'll try to ship a disc? [17:22] <knome> no, we wouldn't advertise [17:22] <SiDi> and we send a burnt CD with a hand-draw mouse on it ? :) [17:22] <knome> no, no advertising [17:22] <ochosi> hehe [17:22] <knome> SiDi, yes! :] [17:22] * charlie-tca nods [17:22] <knome> basically, if somebody asks for a cd and really can't d/l it, we should be able to ship one to him/her [17:22] <knome> as our personal investment in open source [17:22] <knome> that's the core thing [17:23] <knome> and that's been discussed, right, charlie-tca ? [17:23] <charlie-tca> knome: you know I have been trying to. At this point, I can not ship outside of the USA [17:23] <knome> charlie-tca, well you can ship to usa. we at EU can ship to EU. [17:23] <SiDi> charlie-tca: anyway i doubt anyone can ship easily outside of europe / usa [17:23] <charlie-tca> correct, discussion has taken place. [17:23] <ochosi> well within the eu this wouldn't be a problem [17:23] <ochosi> what countries are we talking about here anyway? *the world*? [17:23] <charlie-tca> I can't even get them to Mexico [17:24] <knome> ochosi, the world, yes. [17:24] <charlie-tca> That is correct, ochosi [17:24] <SiDi> problem is that for an individual its extremely expensive [17:24] <SiDi> we should better in this case find some contacts in every official LoCo [17:24] <knome> that's fine as well. [17:24] <charlie-tca> Costs me about 1.25 american dollars anywhere in the world [17:24] <ochosi> is there a list of loco-teams for xubuntu (or do they even exist at all?) [17:24] <knome> ochosi, there are. [17:24] <knome> people just need to be ready to talk to a loco [17:24] <charlie-tca> ochosi: we are part of the Ubuntu loco teams, normally [17:25] <SiDi> charlie-tca: costs me about ~20 dollars outside of Europe [17:25] <ochosi> k [17:25] <knome> SiDi, you live in FRANCE. [17:25] <knome> SiDi, you are forgiven [17:25] * cody-somerville has to go, bbl [17:25] <knome> SiDi, and damned :P [17:25] <knome> cody-somerville, see you [17:25] <ochosi> i think he knows that :) knome [17:25] <SiDi> cody-somerville: bye [17:25] <cody-somerville> \o_ [17:25] <knome> anyway [17:25] <ochosi> cody-somerville, bye [17:25] <charlie-tca> brb [17:25] <knome> if somebody asks a cd, we should either mail them one or point them to loco's, everybody agree? [17:26] <ochosi> agreed [17:26] <knome> okay [17:26] <SiDi> or we can get one mailed by the LoCo [17:26] <SiDi> cheaper [17:26] <SiDi> thats what i meant by LoCo contacts [17:26] <knome> SiDi, exactly - point the asking person to loco.. [17:26] <SiDi> oh i mean we could give the address to the loco guy and ask him/her to send it [17:26] <knome> [ACTION] For now, if somebody asks for a CD, point them to asks from the LoCo or send one ourselves. [17:27] <MootBot> ACTION received: For now, if somebody asks for a CD, point them to asks from the LoCo or send one ourselves. [17:27] <knome> NEXT ITEM. [17:27] <SiDi> we'd have to decide who pays though [17:27] <knome> [TOPIC] Progress on notify-osd integration and current critical issues [17:27] <MootBot> New Topic: Progress on notify-osd integration and current critical issues [17:27] <knome> SiDi, we pay or the loco pays. [17:27] * SiDi disconnects [17:27] <SiDi> Ok so [17:27] <knome> SiDi, it's not *that* expensive. if you can't then don't ship one and point them to loco. [17:27] <SiDi> NotifyOsd is still under heavy development as you may know [17:27] <SiDi> Some issues got fixed, others appear [17:28] <SiDi> I'm gonna begin with the current issues as it's the main focus of development if we want to be able to ship n-o in good conditions for Karmic [17:28] <knome> [TOPIC] .. Current issues [17:28] <MootBot> New Topic: .. Current issues [17:28] <SiDi> So among minor problems, there are some lacking icons in n-o [17:28] <knome> SiDi, is somebody working on them? [17:29] <SiDi> we're not very concerned as we have Human installed as far as i know [17:29] <SiDi> knome: no but at worse i suppose it's all about pinging kwwii and asking gently [17:29] <knome> okay, i can try to help as well [17:29] <SiDi> The main problems at the moment are a11y issues [17:29] <SiDi> First, we can't theme n-o bubbles, which causes problems to some users [17:30] <SiDi> This is gonna be solved by MacSlow according to our last discussion. We will have some gconf keys for it [17:30] <SiDi> so we can ship different defaults or add a little GUI for it [17:30] <SiDi> The most worrying thing is that n-o uses custom fonts / DPI settings from ... GNOME [17:30] <ochosi> rly? didn't know that [17:30] <SiDi> MacSlow is ok with adding XFCE-specific stuff but he wants n-o to be compilable without this code by default [17:31] <SiDi> So i'm gonna patch n-o to use xfconf for this, and by the meanwhile i'll see if i can reallistically make n-o use xfconf everywhere gconf is used, so that we could ship a gconf-free n-o package [17:31] <knome> SiDi, so do you need how to proceed or you need some help with it? :) [17:31] <knome> (from the xubuntu team) [17:31] <SiDi> And of course this requires the authorization to upload a notify-osd-xfce package [17:32] <knome> i think that's not a problem, you'd have to ask cody-somerville, though [17:32] <SiDi> I need an official developer to sponsor the package if i write the needed changes [17:32] <SiDi> I think it can fall under "fix bugs" though so it should be ok if im not done before the FeatureFreeze [17:32] <knome> [ACTION] SiDi needs an official developer to sponsor the notify-osd-xfce package. [17:32] <MootBot> ACTION received: SiDi needs an official developer to sponsor the notify-osd-xfce package. [17:32] <SiDi> Apart from that, we still have apps that misbehave with notify-osd [17:33] <knome> SiDi, cody-somerville can push anything through even after ff ;>> [17:33] <SiDi> I spotted thunar-volman and xfce4-places-plugin [17:33] <knome> SiDi, are they obvious to fix? [17:33] <SiDi> I'll patch them soon if everything goes fine, the patch is easy to write [17:33] <knome> okay [17:33] <SiDi> making a proper .patch file for the package and repackaging and uploading is less [17:33] <knome> [ACTION] SiDi keeps on doing the great work on patches so notify-osd works correctly [17:33] <MootBot> ACTION received: SiDi keeps on doing the great work on patches so notify-osd works correctly [17:33] <ochosi> thunar-volman and xfce4-places are both about mounting notifications? [17:33] <SiDi> I know how to write code but it stops there, so i'll need guidance from real devs again [17:33] <SiDi> ochosi: yes [17:33] <SiDi> they use actions in it [17:34] <knome> [ACTION] SiDi needs help from "real" developers [17:34] <MootBot> ACTION received: SiDi needs help from "real" developers [17:34] <ochosi> and would that change if say thunar/gio was ready for karmic? [17:34] <SiDi> it won't [17:34] <knome> SiDi, do you specifically mean the xubuntu devs or the original app devs here? [17:34] <SiDi> Apart from that, xfce4-volumed is implemented and working. [17:34] <SiDi> knome: ours [17:34] <knome> okay. [17:34] <SiDi> i just need to be explained how to make a proper patch for a deb package [17:34] <charlie-tca> Well, we do have cody-somerville and mr_pouit to help when needed, SiDi [17:35] <knome> [ACTION] xfce4-volumed is implemented and working! -> SiDi adds this to the team report. [17:35] <MootBot> ACTION received: xfce4-volumed is implemented and working! -> SiDi adds this to the team report. [17:35] <SiDi> My volume daemon works nicely, but it still uses ram : 2.9 MB on my 64bits install, so i think it should be easy to unset it from autostart [17:35] <knome> [ACTION] mr_pouit and cody-somerville help SiDi ;] [17:35] <MootBot> ACTION received: mr_pouit and cody-somerville help SiDi ;] [17:36] <SiDi> I also want to patch gnome-settings-daemon in order to make its notifications easier to read. If you spot apps that use long and hard to read notifications, please file a bug and add me to subscribers (and mail me ;p ) [17:36] <knome> SiDi, anything else you'd like to add? [17:36] <SiDi> Finally, i'll also see with the xfce4-power-manager dev if he can add support for the XF86Power key so that i could patch xfce4-power-manager to use more simple notifications too [17:36] <knome> [ACTION] If you see lond and hard to read notifications, file a bug and add SiDi to subscribers and poke him [17:36] <MootBot> ACTION received: If you see lond and hard to read notifications, file a bug and add SiDi to subscribers and poke him [17:36] <SiDi> (but he's already made an awesome work patching xf-p-m to use notify-osd !) [17:37] * charlie-tca thinks that he won't be filing bugs for every notice he can't read. [17:37] <SiDi> I'm done with this topic, but there are other topics i'd like to speak about [17:37] <knome> [AGREED] SiDi is too humble. Hooray SiDi! :) [17:37] <MootBot> AGREED received: SiDi is too humble. Hooray SiDi! :) [17:37] <SiDi> And i think ochosi may have a word to say about mail clients :p [17:37] <knome> charlie-tca, lol ;) [17:37] <SiDi> knome: come on Q.Q [17:37] <knome> ochosi, ? [17:37] <ochosi> well, SiDi and me had quite a few discussions about whether we prefer claws or tb [17:37] * SiDi is actually ABSOLUTELY NOT humble. [17:38] <ochosi> specifically for karmic [17:38] <knome> oh right [17:38] <knome> ochosi, can you wait a bit? [17:38] <ochosi> np [17:38] <knome> let's go through the other items quickly [17:38] <knome> [TOPIC] Karmic Artwork Brainstorm [17:38] <MootBot> New Topic: Karmic Artwork Brainstorm [17:38] <ochosi> mm, i like that :) [17:38] <knome> [AGREED] knomes brain is not storming enough. We still wait for the awesome artwork. [17:38] <MootBot> AGREED received: knomes brain is not storming enough. We still wait for the awesome artwork. [17:39] <SiDi> knome: ! [17:39] <knome> [IDEA] Something sky/clouds-related [17:39] <MootBot> IDEA received: Something sky/clouds-related [17:39] <knome> [IDEA] PINK mice [17:39] <MootBot> IDEA received: PINK mice [17:39] <SiDi> Pink ? [17:39] <ochosi> +1 for pink mice [17:39] <SiDi> Purple / Mauve artwork with sky and clouds and sunrise ? [17:39] <charlie-tca> PINK??? [17:40] <knome> [IDEA] Purple / Mauve artwork with sky and clouds and sunrise ? [17:40] <MootBot> IDEA received: Purple / Mauve artwork with sky and clouds and sunrise ? [17:40] <knome> [IDEA] PINK??? [17:40] <MootBot> IDEA received: PINK??? [17:40] <knome> ;] [17:40] <ochosi> i think you're the master of blue, knome. xubuntu should stay blue [17:40] <knome> [IDEA] Something as dark as the Jaunty artwork? [17:40] <MootBot> IDEA received: Something as dark as the Jaunty artwork? [17:40] <knome> [IDEA] Xubuntu should stay blue. [17:40] <MootBot> IDEA received: Xubuntu should stay blue. [17:40] <charlie-tca> Kill that pink idea [17:40] <SiDi> some hues of violet go very very well with blue [17:40] <knome> [IDEA] Dark GTK theme. [17:40] <MootBot> IDEA received: Dark GTK theme. [17:41] <SiDi> but pink is a bit hardcore [17:41] <knome> [IDEA] knome will work with cody-somerville to include his dark GTK theme to some Karmic alpha. [17:41] <MootBot> IDEA received: knome will work with cody-somerville to include his dark GTK theme to some Karmic alpha. [17:41] <ochosi> i'm for dark panels with bright icons (especially for stuff like volume-icon etc) [17:41] <knome> SiDi, charlie-tca: it was a joke.. :) [17:41] <knome> [IDEA] Dark panels with bright icons. [17:41] <MootBot> IDEA received: Dark panels with bright icons. [17:41] <SiDi> charlie-tca: on a a11y point of view, is dark panels ok ? [17:41] <knome> [IDEA] Black panels with black and black icons. [17:41] <MootBot> IDEA received: Black panels with black and black icons. [17:42] <ochosi> i'm for dark panels, no matter what gtk-theme is used for the rest tbh [17:42] <charlie-tca> As long as panels and icons and text are all black, I guess so. [17:42] <charlie-tca> That would fit in well with notify-osd for me ;-) [17:43] <ochosi> hehe [17:43] <knome> charlie-tca, remember when i worked with my dark theme? was that ok? [17:43] <knome> charlie-tca, a11y-wise? [17:43] <ochosi> i would also say that a theme joining the menu-bar and xfwm4 color-wise is nice (like the dust-theme) [17:43] <charlie-tca> I think so. I just change it to something I can read anyway [17:43] <ochosi> but i know that knome will beg to differ [17:43] <knome> i don't like it personally. [17:44] <SiDi> ochosi: like my last theme ? :D [17:44] <knome> but if we decide to go that way... well i can change it to something i lie. :P [17:44] <SiDi> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Chromium+GTK+%2B+XFWM?content=108046 [17:44] <MootBot> LINK received: http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Chromium+GTK+%2B+XFWM?content=108046 [17:44] <SiDi> oh crap, mootbot [17:44] <knome> [IDEA] Colorwise joined menubar and xfwm4? [17:44] <MootBot> IDEA received: Colorwise joined menubar and xfwm4? [17:44] <ochosi> yay SiDi, nice theme btw [17:44] <knome> okay, anybody has something for the artwork brainstorm? [17:44] <SiDi> ochosi: it has a few (lots) of problems and work needed [17:45] <SiDi> knome: you need to register to ubuntu-devel [17:45] <ochosi> the icon theme will stay gnome-brave, knome ? [17:45] <knome> SiDi, why? [17:45] <SiDi> and watch what goes on with usplash ! [17:45] <SiDi> They're gonna use a custom X server apparently [17:45] <knome> ochosi, if no better theme will show up [17:45] <knome> SiDi, right [17:45] <SiDi> maybe asking kwwii and mat_t to keep you in touch about any official ubuntu artwork infrastructure changes may help too [17:45] <charlie-tca> SiDi: we still it to be able to use a Xubuntu usplash, please. [17:45] <knome> [ACTION] knome needs to join ubuntu-devel ML and see what is going on with usplash [17:45] <MootBot> ACTION received: knome needs to join ubuntu-devel ML and see what is going on with usplash [17:45] <ochosi> knome, i'm fine with gnome-brave, only one general question: i assume you'll try to build on top of the most recent version of the theme..? [17:45] <SiDi> charlie-tca: usplash would make us lose some boot time probably [17:46] <charlie-tca> We are using theirs now, and I want ours back [17:46] <SiDi> it's gonna be dropped, and plymouth too, in profit of faster / lighter solutions [17:46] <knome> ochosi, can you be more specific, please?:) [17:46] <knome> [IDEA] Gnome-brave as the icon theme for Karmic also? [17:46] <MootBot> IDEA received: Gnome-brave as the icon theme for Karmic also? [17:46] * SiDi very dislikes some icons in gnome-brave [17:46] <ochosi> knome, well, victor has been working on the theme quite a bit on gnome-brave since you took it for jaunty [17:46] <knome> [AGREED] Some icons are not as good as they could be [17:46] <MootBot> AGREED received: Some icons are not as good as they could be [17:47] <SiDi> i'm more for a recolored version of Human/Humanity/Breathe, even if it takes _more_ time to setup [17:47] <knome> ochosi, oh right. yes, if the newest version is in the repos, we'll use it. [17:47] <ochosi> knome, i see [17:47] <knome> we're not going anywhere here and we're almost used all of our time [17:47] <charlie-tca> We get good comments every release for not using Human, why would we go to it? [17:47] <knome> so if there is nothing *reallY* important, let's go on [17:47] <SiDi> if we keep gnome-brave, is it possible to get more Humanish media icons ? [17:47] <ochosi> SiDi, so making a list of icons we don't like in gnome-brave wouldn't be enough? [17:47] <ochosi> k [17:47] <SiDi> especially _not colored_ icons [17:48] <SiDi> ochosi: it'd be ok for me [17:48] <SiDi> i just prefer humanity / breathe's style :p but at least g-b is very complete [17:48] <knome> [IDEA] Gnome-brave with Humanish media icons? [17:48] <MootBot> IDEA received: Gnome-brave with Humanish media icons? [17:48] <ochosi> SiDi, cause i think it's mainly some icons like folders that are crucial [17:48] <SiDi> so a list of icons we dont like could do it [17:48] <knome> [IDEA] Make a list of icons we don't like in Gnome-brave? [17:48] <MootBot> IDEA received: Make a list of icons we don't like in Gnome-brave? [17:48] <charlie-tca> important: All images today are working. This is the time to grab them for testing karmic. [17:48] <knome> :]]] [17:48] <charlie-tca> We haven't actually had any images since alpha2 that worked [17:49] <knome> ok, enough of artwork... [17:49] <knome> [TOPIC] Other items/ free word [17:49] <MootBot> New Topic: Other items/ free word [17:49] <SiDi> ok, i let you begin ochosi [17:49] <charlie-tca> and, gnumeric is broken again [17:49] <knome> [ACTION] Grab the images, as *all of them* are working today! [17:49] <MootBot> ACTION received: Grab the images, as *all of them* are working today! [17:49] <knome> [AGREED] Gnumeric is broken again [17:49] <MootBot> AGREED received: Gnumeric is broken again [17:49] <knome> [TOPIC] .. Default mail client for Karmic [17:49] <ochosi> ok, so we had a few discussions about tb versus claws [17:49] <MootBot> New Topic: .. Default mail client for Karmic [17:50] <ochosi> i'll try to keep this as short as possible [17:50] <knome> np, just tell everything you need to [17:50] <knome> i think we can go a bit over 1 hour so absolutely *NO PANIC* :) [17:50] <ochosi> i'm not entirely sure anymore, which is the best default mail client any more. in the beginning i was quite convinced that claws is amazing [17:50] <ochosi> i still think it's amazing, but SiDi convinced me that it really has some usability issues [17:51] <knome> thunderbird is great featurewise and many people would like to use it regardless if it's the default or not. [17:51] <SiDi> *evil grin* [17:51] <ochosi> the menus, the filtering, the settings dialog, most things are too cluttered [17:51] <ochosi> yeah, i don't mind anymore if tb is the default [17:51] <knome> hehe [17:51] <ochosi> even though i'm not sure what you brought forward is a good argument, knome ;) [17:51] <SiDi> i think we can afford to adopt it now as its not a LTS cycle [17:52] <knome> [AGREED] TB beats claws feature- and usabilitywise. [17:52] <MootBot> AGREED received: TB beats claws feature- and usabilitywise. [17:52] <knome> ;) [17:52] <SiDi> knome: TB doesnt beat claws featurewise as far as i understood [17:52] <ochosi> well, it's a question of usability versus lightweight [17:52] <ochosi> yes, i disagree with that too. it's not a feature-question [17:52] <knome> [AGREED] It's a question of usability VS. lightweight [17:52] <MootBot> AGREED received: It's a question of usability VS. lightweight [17:52] <ochosi> you can do really *a lot* with claws [17:52] <SiDi> If we go for claws though, we should expect to be able to greatly improve its flaws for the next release, and be ready to receive feedback (especially negative critique) [17:53] <SiDi> in order to bring this feedback to the claws devs so they can improve it [17:53] <knome> many people are not that familiar with claws. [17:53] <ochosi> yes, i agree [17:53] <knome> that's what makes TB look like as easier to use [17:53] <ochosi> yeah, many people are not that familiar with thunar either ;) [17:53] <SiDi> Also, do we believe that the users of xubuntu have the same profile than the users claws mail targets ? [17:53] <ochosi> yes, that's a good question, SiDi [17:53] <SiDi> ochosi: thunar is a piece of cake to use :) [17:54] <ochosi> i never said anything else [17:54] <ochosi> and i think that's what i think you devs have to decide [17:54] * ochosi goes to the doorbell. apologizes [17:54] <SiDi> I'd like to add something not so related but it should be in the meeting logs [17:55] <knome> SiDi, wait a sec. [17:55] <SiDi> Someone _MUST_ get in touch with alacarte's developer to see if he's worked on an xfce compatible menu editor [17:55] <knome> [AGREED] We need to decide on the default mail client [17:55] <MootBot> AGREED received: We need to decide on the default mail client [17:55] * SiDi waited a sec :P [17:55] <SiDi> (technically i mean ~) [17:55] <knome> [TOPIC] .. Menu editor for Xfce?! [17:55] <MootBot> New Topic: .. Menu editor for Xfce?! [17:55] <ochosi> ok, back [17:55] <mr_pouit> for 4.8 [17:55] <SiDi> mr_pouit: so it will not be ready at all for Karmic ? [17:56] <mr_pouit> no [17:56] <SiDi> ok, i think its one of the biggest user expectations [17:56] <SiDi> mr_pouit: its gonna be worked on by Jannis right ? [17:56] <knome> [AGREED] No menu editor for 4.8 is bad. [17:56] <mr_pouit> yes [17:56] <MootBot> AGREED received: No menu editor for 4.8 is bad. [17:56] <SiDi> knome: for 9.10 ;p [17:56] <ochosi> yes i agree, many people complain about it. even though i don't think so many people really edit their menu... [17:56] <knome> right.. sorry [17:57] <knome> [AGREED] EDIT: No menu editor for 9.10 is bad. [17:57] <MootBot> AGREED received: EDIT: No menu editor for 9.10 is bad. [17:57] <SiDi> ochosi: usually you just remove half of it once, but doing it manually sucks for Xubuntu users [17:57] <ochosi> SiDi, k [17:57] <SiDi> ok so i suppose someone should take upon himself to grab alacarte's source and to make a fork out of it for XFCE ? [17:57] <knome> [IDEA] Contact Alacarte dev to ask if they have worked for an Xfce compatible app? [17:57] <MootBot> IDEA received: Contact Alacarte dev to ask if they have worked for an Xfce compatible app? [17:57] <SiDi> I think it was Jannis's plan anyway [17:57] <knome> [IDEA] Somebody should fork Alacarte to work with Xfce [17:57] <MootBot> IDEA received: Somebody should fork Alacarte to work with Xfce [17:57] * SiDi is not gonna do it :p [17:58] <mr_pouit> no [17:58] <knome> [IDEA] SiDi is going to do it ;] ... not. [17:58] <MootBot> IDEA received: SiDi is going to do it ;] ... not. [17:58] <mr_pouit> He's already working with Jannis [17:58] <mr_pouit> there is no need to fork or whatever [17:58] <SiDi> mr_pouit: but do you have recent news about it ? [17:58] <knome> [ACTION] Jannis is working with the Alacarte dev already, no need to fork. [17:58] <MootBot> ACTION received: Jannis is working with the Alacarte dev already, no need to fork. [17:58] <knome> ONLY A FEW MINUTES LEFT PEOPLE!!! [17:59] <SiDi> afaik the alacarte dev will make a fork of it that works with XFCE [17:59] <mr_pouit> SiDi: jannis has been working on thunar-gio recently [17:59] <ochosi> what about the other default apps for karmic? [17:59] <ochosi> i mean the ones where specs exist [17:59] <knome> [TOPIC] .. Other default appsfor Karmic [17:59] <MootBot> New Topic: .. Other default appsfor Karmic [17:59] <SiDi> mr_pouit: yeh, i follow xfce-dev, and i know hes gonna be busy for a while with thunar, so thats why i was wondering if it would be ok to replace him for the work on the menu editor [17:59] <knome> like which? [17:59] <mr_pouit> SiDi: but 'everything' should be in a git experimental branch somewehere [18:00] <knome> ochosi, ? [18:00] <SiDi> ok so i suppose its time to talk about the music player [18:00] <ochosi> ok, so there's music app (SiDi) [18:00] <knome> we are technically out of time so only quick comments please [18:00] <SiDi> knome: is there any urgency ? [18:00] <knome> [TOPIC] .... Media player? [18:00] <MootBot> New Topic: .... Media player? [18:00] <knome> SiDi, i need to go soonish and i have to finish the meeting [18:00] <ochosi> SiDi, did you have time to look into gmusicbrowser? [18:00] <SiDi> Ok, so, i've had a look at the main media players for GTK [18:01] <SiDi> ochosi: i launched it once or twice but i didnt look in details [18:01] <SiDi> i didnt finish the spec actually [18:01] <SiDi> i also had a look at parole [18:01] <SiDi> and quod libet [18:01] <knome> what about something mpd-powered? :} [18:01] <SiDi> we're currently shipping Listen, so users dont expect to have something heavier with lesser features, sounds obvious [18:01] <SiDi> knome: mpd is not adaptated at all for use with several users [18:01] <ochosi> do you think that would be better in usability than claws, knome? :) [18:01] <SiDi> and its a pain to configure [18:02] <SiDi> i couldnt even get it to run with a GUI knome [18:02] <knome> ochosi, there's no comparison between claws and mpd.. ;] [18:02] <SiDi> and i didnt invest much more time that an average end user would [18:02] <knome> SiDi, you suck. [18:02] <SiDi> so thats quite bad [18:02] <SiDi> knome: write me a tutorial then [18:02] <knome> we would of course set that up. [18:02] <knome> SiDi, right. i will when i have that 5mins time :P [18:02] <SiDi> imo mpd is not adapted at all for per-user use === WelshDragon is now known as YDdraigGoch [18:03] <SiDi> so i looked in details at rb / exaile / banshee / listen as they were the most feature-rich [18:03] <SiDi> i know there are lighter GUI ones, ie. parole and gmusicbrowser, but i think it's better to offer a complete media suite as default [18:03] <knome> true. [18:03] <SiDi> as users who need something really lighter will go for mpd anyway [18:03] <charlie-tca> yes it is, but not one tied to pulseaudio [18:03] <knome> \o/ [18:04] <SiDi> so i looked a tthe most obvious things. They all play music (yes they do), they work more or less the same in an xfce desktop [18:04] <SiDi> listen became much much heavier than it used to be [18:04] <SiDi> and it seems to be the one with the worse GUI and lesser features, so i think it can be safely dropped [18:05] <SiDi> for dependencies, exaile may have a few more ones than listen (it puts more gstreamer plugins - needed anyway - into its recommanded deps) [18:05] <SiDi> RB requires libgnome, brasero and other fancy stuff [18:05] <SiDi> Banshee requires libgnome too, and ~100 MB of mono libs [18:05] <knome> SiDi, what's your final outcome? === dharman is now known as dharman_away [18:05] <SiDi> knome: im far from final outcome :p [18:05] <knome> sorry if i'm rushing you... :P [18:05] <SiDi> rb is the lightest for RAM usage [18:05] <knome> SiDi, what's your current feeling? [18:05] <SiDi> but it has memory leaks (they all have ~ ) [18:05] <charlie-tca> Got to come up with one, though, if we drop listen [18:05] <SiDi> the one with least memory leaks is exaile [18:06] <SiDi> I'm for Exaile, personally [18:06] <SiDi> but i cant take a decision on my own, it wouldnt be honnest ~ im too tied to exaile [18:06] <knome> [IDEA] ATM SiDi is for Exaile [18:06] <MootBot> IDEA received: ATM SiDi is for Exaile [18:06] <SiDi> thats why im exposing this to you now [18:06] <knome> i don't disagree with that. [18:06] <ochosi> i'm for exaile too [18:06] <SiDi> Exaile is light, has decent dependencies, not many memory leaks [18:06] <knome> it might be a good choice really. [18:06] <ochosi> at least with the choice given [18:06] <knome> [AGREED] Exaile might be just what we want. [18:06] <MootBot> AGREED received: Exaile might be just what we want. [18:06] <SiDi> It has suffered from lack of development lately, but the 3 main devs are now extremely actively workingon it [18:06] <charlie-tca> Let's propose replacing Listen with Exaile, then, and try to get cody-somerville to make the changes [18:06] <SiDi> and Exaile 0.3 should be ready for Feature Freeze [18:07] <SiDi> And since i thought it would be the best choice, i began working a little on exaile :) [18:07] <knome> [ACTION] Let's propose replacing Listen with Exaile. [18:07] <MootBot> ACTION received: Let's propose replacing Listen with Exaile. [18:07] <charlie-tca> We need to have cody-somerville seed exaile for testing [18:07] <SiDi> ie. notification plugin (you can find vids of it in my youtube account) [18:07] <knome> [ACTION] cody-somerville needs to seed Exaile for testing [18:07] <MootBot> ACTION received: cody-somerville needs to seed Exaile for testing [18:07] <charlie-tca> We can leave Listen there for now, and give exaile a chance to be tested [18:07] <knome> [ACTION] SiDi has started working with Exaile already [18:07] <MootBot> ACTION received: SiDi has started working with Exaile already [18:07] <SiDi> and i'm working on some usability / GUI stuff, and also a plugin for better media keys support [18:08] <SiDi> (so far NO player behaves correctly for the media keys outside of gnome) [18:08] <knome> [AGREED] We can keep Listen for now, test Exaile and make the decision later. [18:08] <MootBot> AGREED received: We can keep Listen for now, test Exaile and make the decision later. [18:08] <SiDi> (Exaile had a plugin but i have to port it to the latest version for it to work fine) [18:08] <SiDi> Thats all [18:08] <knome> okay. [18:08] <knome> any other default apps we should discuss? [18:08] <SiDi> Now i'd like to say a word about the "Slim session down" spec [18:08] <knome> o.O [18:08] <charlie-tca> Anything better than firefox? [18:08] <SiDi> charlie-tca: not yet :) [18:08] <knome> [TOPIC] .. "Slim session down" -spec [18:08] <MootBot> New Topic: .. "Slim session down" -spec [18:09] <charlie-tca> In Karmic, it uses 3-10 percent of the cpu continuously [18:09] <knome> charlie-tca, epiphany does not work, midori is too alpha. [18:09] <SiDi> midori is lighter than it used to be [18:09] <SiDi> it has support for flash and various basic things [18:09] <knome> SiDi, but it is still too alpha. [18:09] <charlie-tca> epiphany don't work? [18:09] <SiDi> but i think its far from FF's features (of course since FF is heavily funded) [18:09] <knome> epiphany/midori crash all the time [18:09] <SiDi> yeh they're very unstable [18:09] <knome> for me at least [18:09] <charlie-tca> midori I have fought with. I need to do a bug report for it for xfce [18:09] <knome> that's unacceptable. [18:09] <SiDi> so is chromium (all webkit based ~ muaha) [18:10] <knome> SiDi, see the topic :P [18:10] <knome> SiDi, slim! [18:10] <SiDi> knome: i know you switched too fast ~ :P [18:10] <knome> SiDi, session! :P [18:10] <SiDi> Ok so i had an idea [18:10] <knome> [IDEA] ?? [18:10] <MootBot> IDEA received: ?? [18:10] <SiDi> According to comparisons we mostly lose on the default desktop's RAM usage [18:10] <charlie-tca> SiDi: that one could be a good idea? [18:10] <SiDi> thats quite logical : we ship update-notifier and other fancy stuff that takes some RAM [18:10] <knome> [AGREED] According to comparisons we mostly lose on the default desktop's RAM usage [18:10] <MootBot> AGREED received: According to comparisons we mostly lose on the default desktop's RAM usage [18:11] <SiDi> now the bad news is that its not going to be better in karmic [18:11] <knome> [AGREED] We stip update-notifier and other fancy stuff that takes some RAM [18:11] <MootBot> AGREED received: We stip update-notifier and other fancy stuff that takes some RAM [18:11] <SiDi> of course, apps get more features so more RAM usage, and if we add notify-osd / xfce4-volumed we may lose a few megs too [18:11] <SiDi> so my idea is the following ! [18:11] <knome> [AGREED] It's not going to be better in Karmic. [18:11] <MootBot> AGREED received: It's not going to be better in Karmic. [18:11] <knome> ;) [18:11] <SiDi> We should be able to check the user's RAM during the install [18:11] <knome> [IDEA] ??!! [18:11] <MootBot> IDEA received: ??!! [18:11] <charlie-tca> I disagree with that agreed thing [18:12] <knome> [AGREED] charlie-tca disagrees... [18:12] <MootBot> AGREED received: charlie-tca disagrees... [18:12] <SiDi> and if user has less than XXX RAM, we should disable some daemons from autostart [18:12] <ochosi> sounds experimental [18:12] <SiDi> till we estimate that the average ram usage would be under YYY [18:12] <SiDi> ochosi: indeed. i dont know if its feasible [18:12] <knome> [IDEA] Check the RAM at installation stage, disable some daemons from autostart automatically [18:12] <MootBot> IDEA received: Check the RAM at installation stage, disable some daemons from autostart automatically [18:12] <charlie-tca> SiDi: if we can disable them for some users, why do we have them? [18:12] <SiDi> the idea is that we disable all the non-vital userspace daemons for users with not enough RAM [18:12] <SiDi> charlie-tca: because they're a good plus for usability [18:12] <SiDi> but i mean, do you _really_ need them ? update-notifier is enhancement [18:13] <SiDi> xfce4-volumed too [18:13] <SiDi> you can useyour computer without them, even if its better when they run [18:13] <knome> [IDEA] Disable any enhancements for all users and not only for those with low RAM? [18:13] <MootBot> IDEA received: Disable any enhancements for all users and not only for those with low RAM? [18:13] <charlie-tca> If not everybody gets them, how do they decide Xubuntu is really worth using? [18:13] <SiDi> but if we want users with 200 MB of ram to can use Xubuntu, we can save 30/40 MB ram this way [18:13] <charlie-tca> Seems like everybody should have the same things running. [18:13] <SiDi> charlie-tca: it would be only on critical RAM [18:13] <knome> [IDEA] Users are able to disable services themselves... [18:13] <MootBot> IDEA received: Users are able to disable services themselves... [18:13] <ochosi> i think this is difficult, you won't have consistent experiences of xubuntu anymore [18:14] <charlie-tca> We can use Jaunty in 128MB, we should instead pare down karmic to use that [18:14] <SiDi> What if we ship a checkbox "Disable userspace services by default" in the Advanced tab of the installer ? [18:14] <knome> [AGREED] We want consistent experience for all Xubuntu users, so we can't cut down on default daemons [18:14] <MootBot> AGREED received: We want consistent experience for all Xubuntu users, so we can't cut down on default daemons [18:14] <knome> [IDEA] Checkbox for disabling userspace services by default? [18:14] <MootBot> IDEA received: Checkbox for disabling userspace services by default? [18:14] <SiDi> charlie-tca: im not sure you can get _Xubuntu_ running under 128 forever [18:15] <knome> we don't need to get it running *under* 128 [18:15] <SiDi> Xfce is not so light, GDM takes a good 30 MB, and we add some ubuntu stuff that isnt light at all (including my own daemon) [18:15] <knome> is that it? [18:15] <charlie-tca> I have three systems using Xubuntu, they all need to be the same. They should never be different if they are using the same thing. [18:16] <charlie-tca> SiDi: I don't think we can, but we need to maintain consistent interfaces and applications for all users [18:16] <knome> [IDEA] ydupont stepped up; he wants to include SLIM in Xubuntu [18:16] <MootBot> IDEA received: ydupont stepped up; he wants to include SLIM in Xubuntu [18:16] <SiDi> Well, thats all i had to say :) [18:16] <ochosi> i think we should decide what "light" means. just ram usage? [18:16] <charlie-tca> If Xubuntu can't be used, we should say so [18:16] <knome> okay, anything else? [18:16] <knome> phew [18:16] <SiDi> knome: it requires a lot of work prior to working [18:16] <SiDi> ochosi: yeh, ram usage here indeed [18:16] <knome> he's willing to do it [18:16] <ScottK> Note: neither Ubuntu nor Kubuntu disable compositing by default because some video hardware doesn't support it. [18:17] <SiDi> ScottK: and some users cant boot :p [18:17] <knome> SiDi, that might not be in for karmic, but the work can be started now. [18:17] <knome> anything else about anything? [18:17] <ScottK> SiDi: Sure, but the point is it's not at all unusual to treat different hardware configurations somewhat differently. [18:17] <knome> i'm ending the meeting soon... [18:17] <charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument [18:18] <knome> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument [18:18] <MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument === RainCT_ is now known as RainCT [18:18] <SiDi> Well i'm done then [18:18] <charlie-tca> defines our strategy. Perhaps we all need to review it to find out where xubuntu is supposed to be going? [18:18] <knome> PHEW! THANKS! [18:18] <knome> charlie-tca, that is wonderfully said [18:18] <SiDi> charlie-tca: i have the feeling that we want to be lightweight and feature ful at the same time :) [18:19] <knome> [IDEA] Perhaps we all need to review it to find out where Xubuntu is supposed to be going? [18:19] <MootBot> IDEA received: Perhaps we all need to review it to find out where Xubuntu is supposed to be going? [18:19] <charlie-tca> and we can be [18:19] <knome> #endmeeting [18:19] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:19. [18:19] <SiDi> one day we will have to meet and define what we want to do, but now isnt the best time for it [18:19] <knome> yep. [18:19] <SiDi> okwell, thanks everyone for coming :p [18:19] <charlie-tca> SiDi: the strategy docs do define that [18:19] <knome> impromptu meetings are allowed as well about the smaller items [18:19] <knome> thanks [18:19] <knome> somebody want to set up the minutes? [18:19] <charlie-tca> Thanks for chairing, knome [18:19] <knome> charlie-tca, no problem [18:19] <knome> even if we took 20mins extra ;) [18:20] <ochosi> yay, i think that's a good sign :) [18:20] <SiDi> thats ok knome :p [18:20] <ochosi> at least in some respect [18:20] <knome> SiDi, i will sacrifice one kitten for every extra minute [18:20] <SiDi> We didnt get shout at anyway [18:20] * SiDi kills knome instantly with a fireball [18:21] <knome> :P [18:21] <knome> ok, i'll put the minutes online then. [18:21] <SiDi> okies :p [18:21] <knome> it will take some time but i'll do it [18:21] <knome> thanks, i'll go have some time with my *wife* [18:21] <knome> ... [18:21] <knome> SiDi, *I* got shouted at... :P [18:21] <knome> -> [18:22] <charlie-tca> \o/
MeetingLogs/Xubuntu_2009-07-11 (last edited 2009-07-11 19:10:04 by nblzone-227-162)